| IVOD_ID |
15726 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15726 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-14T08:30:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-14T11:51:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:20:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db6d0b2a5b2cc6652c9e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be47cf0c2f7a8f39e255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:31 - 11:51:00 |
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麥克風測試 |
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345.421 |
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346.186 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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412.841 |
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413.916 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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450.555 |
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451.749 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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485.691 |
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486.271 |
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MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TONG |
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591.624 |
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596.664 |
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主席 |
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1027.227 |
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1028.37 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1872.452 |
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1893.889 |
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好我們繼續開會進行討論事項請宣讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣中油股份有限公司今日詢答宣讀完畢好本日議程排定經濟部主管的台灣中油公司的營業預算那我們首先請王美花部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1903.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1908.952 |
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主席、各位委員今天針對中油公司的113年預算經濟部先做簡單的報告第一個在去年由於俄烏戰爭都沒有停止以哈衝突又起國際的能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1920.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1942.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
原物料價格有波動中油公司配合政府穩定物價政策吸收器材有天然氣跟液化石油氣的部分售價造成112年度稅前虧損大概180億元那中油持續穩定國內的油氣供應加強公安管理那配合能源跟淨零轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1943.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1952.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
以下就幾個重點第一個在穩定油氣供應的部分中油公司原有進口以長期合約為主現貨為輔長期合約大概佔55%到65%來維持長期的穩定購油來源其餘的35跟45會配合鏈廠實際的需求逐月在現貨市場採購來增加操作的彈性跟兼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1972.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1975.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1996.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2013.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
關於企業的部分、液化天然氣採購也是以穩定國內供應用氣為主要的目標。中長期企業佔75%,短約的部分大概佔25%。中長期的部分主要的企業來自澳洲、卡達美國、巴布亞、 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2015.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2017.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2045.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2066.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
陳朗山管理、制程安全管理、公安集合、緊急應變、事故調查等等來確保人員的安全跟設備的可靠。本部會持續督促中油公司加強運用科技的輔具來公安的管理,落實SOP的執行,強化公安的紀律跟查核以零災害為目標。 |
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2067.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2080.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那在推動淨零轉型的部分呢中油公司主要拓展新商機來循序推動淨零轉型那主要有幾個部分那第一個是優有的部分呢 |
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2082.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2101.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
在生產端會數據化管理油田應用新興的科技來提升碳採的績效那也會調整現有煉化的結構減產燃料增產石化品來發展新材料在銷售端的部分會拓展智慧綠能站建置電動機車充換電設備那減碳的策略部分推動製程的節能減碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2110.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2131.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
公映碳綜合的產品以及生質能燃料推動產品碳足跡盤查跟內部的碳淨價擬定有效的減量計畫開發碳補桌再利用跟封存的技術節能政策部分跨入氫能的初期領域依照國際的氫能技術跟市場發展的趨勢逐步協助國內經濟氫能的供應跟應用市場今年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2139.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2153.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
預計來完成國內第一座移動式的示範加輕站也會配合再生能源政策開發國內淺層生成的地熱今年度規劃在宜蘭的土廠建置一座4MW的地熱電廠營業的收支跟營餘的部分113年度的預算編列收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2160.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2165.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
一兆2254億元支出是一兆2227億元稅後淨利是26億元加112年度的預算淨利1億7000億元增加25億元那主要是預估國際原油跟天然氣價格回跌進口成本減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2182.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2193.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
投資計畫跟資金來源部分今年度購置的固定資產投資主要用於強化天然氣的速氣韌性公司轉型、鏈子結構改善以及例行性的設備等編列了528億餘元其中專案的計畫包含12項332億餘元3項新興計畫4億2000餘元合計是337億餘元 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2210.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2229.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那一般的建築跟設備計畫編列191億餘元那資金的來源呢320億餘元向國內借款其餘的207億餘元以自由資金來支應那以上做簡單的報告那等一下請這個負責人做詳細的報告好謝謝部長接下來我們請中油公司李順清董事長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2248.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2271.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席、各位委員、大家好僅就公司當前的經營環境跟經營策略以及113年的經營重點在這裡跟各位委員提出二要的報告首先報告當前經營環境在國際能源市場的情勢方面111年2月24日俄烏戰爭爆發之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2273.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2276.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2296.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2310.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
造成了國際能源供應任性上的一個衝擊也包括全球商品價格的一個暴漲在3月的時候布蘭特原油甚至漲到137塊美元一桶天然氣也創價了歷史新高現貨來到84塊半每百萬BTU |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2318.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2343.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那其後為了減緩戰爭帶來的通膨避免陷入經濟衰退在美國聯準會帶頭之下全球陸續跟進採取緊縮貨幣的政策利率因快速攀升不利於需求的擴增所以在112年間布蘭特原油起水跌落到80塊以下對此OPEC為了確保油價 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2345.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2368.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
來決定延長減產的協議到今年的年底為止而且沙烏地阿拉伯跟俄國兩個國家甚至大幅的減產那在112年的10月7號整個以巴衝突之後布蘭特原油再度漲破90塊美元一桶那歐洲的期價一個禮拜漲幅甚至高達了46%那 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2371.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2382.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一八衝突、二屋戰爭、OPEC Plus的生產決策以及美國原油的產量多寡對全球經濟的影響都是國際油價、氣價後續走勢觀察的重點那在第二點來談到國內油品市場國內就是中油 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2391.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2416.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
日鏈60萬桶台塑日鏈54萬桶那台灣中油公司在器材油的市佔率都維持在80%以上那這幾年因為台塑石化他以外銷出口為主他的獲利空間最近受到限縮所以轉向國內來搶佔國內的器材油市場那另外在燃料油部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2417.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2436.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
為了提升它的效益,煉製為高價值的器材行等等,所以燃料有部分的一個進口。政府公司身為國營事業兼負責充分供應國內各項油品、天然氣及石化燃料的重要任務。那我們也會配合政府穩定物價的政策。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2436.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2448.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
長期以來我們都致力在提供優良的油氣產品提升服務的品質那第二大部分來報告公司的經營策略面對快速變遷的經營環境以及未來能源產業的一個發展趨勢近年來我們已經陸續展開各項轉型策略並且以 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2457.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2472.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
自立成為多元創新永續是國際營業公司為公司的心願景,並且定定的包括邁向近年碳排追求永續發展在內的113年度的六大發展策略以邁向永續經營。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2474.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2495.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
在第3大部分來報告113年度公司經營的重點,這裡大概總共有7點首先還是要強化公安環保政府公司長期以來一直秉持公安百分百還有公安零災害的理念我們在重塑公安文化致力於降低重大事故的發生尤其要避免職災 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2497.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2515.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那在徹底落實公安查核制度還有包括改善承染商的管理制度等等我們已經全部的場域都取得ISO 45001及台灣職業安全衛生管理系統的一個外部驗證那這些都是每年績效考核的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2516.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2529.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在環保方面為了因應環保法規的日趨發展、日趨嚴格那積極提出了一些改善計畫那最重要的是要落實執行以提升各個場域的環境品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2531.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2547.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
在環境規劃上我們持續推動環境會計跟ISO14001的一個環境管理系統在空污方面持續在配合政府推動各項空污改善的計畫尤其是VOC就是非化性的有機物 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2548.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2569.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
自主檢測的比例不斷的在提高來列管高洩漏風險的一個設備元件來這樣子改善空氣的品質另外因應氣候變遷公司也訂定了中期的檢探目標我們致力在2030年要相較於基準年的2005年要減排49.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2571.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2597.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
也就是從1158萬公噸的排放要降到585萬公噸那我們會持續推動溫室氣體的一個盤查節能減碳的工作氣候變遷調適的作業然後會依據巨事發展的成熟度導入再生能源、氫能、碳捕捉、利用或封存等等負碳技術面對2050近年碳排中油公司以優油、減碳、節能三大路徑已經規劃了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2599.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2600.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2624.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2624.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第11屆第11屆第11屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2651.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2653.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
關鍵就是設施韌性的一個投資計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2655.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2681.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在第3項我們報告加強經濟服務提升市場競爭力政府公司持續在加強加油站這個門面的一個經濟服務配合政府的政策來推廣行動支付使消費者有更多元的選擇我們營造捷徑又友善的加油環境來提升市場的競爭力持續提供多樣化及便捷的多角化服務讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2683.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2709.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
中油交站能夠變成人車生活的一個服務站那這裡頭包括複合式的商店洗車快寶還有一些家用產品包括我們的來速咖啡等等我們希望能夠滿足顧客日益多元的消費需求來同時也來建置電動汽車一個充電站的一個設備使交站能夠成為提供多元能源及複合式服務的一個補給站 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2712.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2728.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
接下來報告發展石化、高石化因應全球近年的趨勢中油公司以研發帶動轉型一方面掌握低碳趨勢來優化油氣的價值鏈一方面依照技術的進展規劃氫能再生能源、互碳技術等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2729.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2756.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們也會應用高科技5G AIoT那在高質材料及循環領域方面我們在開發高質化實化產品兼顧循環經濟的綠色創新產品這裡頭有包括相關的計畫都已經提到主管機關來核定之中實化高質化的推動是落實循環經濟的重點也是逐步轉型升級邁向永續潔淨能源公司的關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2758.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2782.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
中共是為了填補國內石化基本原料的缺口甚至包括未來可能有過剩的器材油我們同時要建立國內自己自主的一個原料的供應我們也在推動鏈化轉型產業升級的一個投資計畫希望能夠掌握石化基本原料然後能夠來優先供應給新材料循環專業園區從此來帶動國內石化廠商能夠投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2786.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2812.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
總是5G利率能依裁半導體等等的一個高質化的產品在拓展國際市場方面配合國家的一個經濟發展及能源政策中共公司其實長年以來推動國外的碳採合作還有包括擴大經營中的礦區的合作計畫爭取讓路的一個機會以充分掌握自主漁園同時配合新南向政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2813.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2827.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們在越南的一個逢業潤滑油廠也在111年開始正式來營運透過海外的布局提升台灣中油公司的能源監督也透過中油公司在全球的一個市場版圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2828.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2848.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
來朝向國際能源公司的目標的前進在應用新興科技方面中國公司逐步導入聯工智慧大數據虛擬實境5G、AOT等等應用在生產、銷售、儲印、公關、航保各個環節那我們希望透過建置數據平台進行資料整合跟分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2849.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2869.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
以擬定重要的決策來緊急應變。期望可以在兼顧公安環保的情況下來提高公司的受益。最後一項來報告布局再生能源那中國公司除了已經在推動太陽光電之外我們在利潤方面也不斷在增加那包括在低劣的能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2870.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2890.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們在土廠正在建置低熱的發電設備那後續會持續來擴大裡頭的一個量能那在發動地區也跟民間業者來合作擴大低熱的開發為了達成政府2050淨零碳排的目標我們也在推動台灣陸域海域濱海 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2891.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2892.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2911.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2911.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2929.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2954.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
國際業者進行離岸風電的一個投資評估我們在111年12月取得離岸風電區塊開發第一期的容量分配那也已經獲得核准那一定在113年可以參與海盛風場的一個開發那以上報告敬請各位委員不吝指教好謝謝李董事長接下來我們請中油公司總經理方正仁方總來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2964.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2988.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席、各位委員、大家早。個人請就中油公司112年、113年到2月底的營運概況以及就113年營業預算的一個重要內容來向各位做個說明首先在第一項112年度以及113年度到2月的一個營運概況中油公司在112年實際總收入是1兆1180.12億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2995.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3000.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
總支出是1,349.24億元本期競損是169.12億元跟112年預算數來比的話虧損是增加了170.91億元這個部分主要是配合政府穩定物價政策在售價的部分能夠配合油氣價公式來去足額調整所致 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3022.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3047.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
今年到2月底我們的實際總收入是1710.12億元總支出是1794.42億元競損稅後是84.3億元這主要也是配合政府穩定物價政策所致第二點報告就是今年度我們營業預算的一個概要 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3048.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3069.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
首先在原油液化天然氣成品採購的部分在原油採購我們預估今年進口的原油到達2194萬公柄那FOB的價格是按照每桶80.5元來去估列在液化天然氣跟成品採購的部分液化天然氣預計今年會進口27530百萬立方公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3074.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3092.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那麼在進口甲基第3丁基米是53萬公瓶那麼LPG是31萬公噸那麼在油氣的鏈產的部分成品天然氣預計會生產27484百萬立方公尺跟去年來比的話會增加1221百萬立方公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3100.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3104.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在原油煉製的部分2195萬公瓶跟去年來比的話也會增加35萬公瓶 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3110.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3121.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
在油氣銷售的部分我們預計今年銷售成品天然氣到達26,993百萬立方公尺跟去年來比的話會增加4.70%那麼在石油煉產品的部分銷售2261萬公秘跟去年來比的話也會增加2.68% |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3134.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3152.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
另外報告有關在油氣探勘及開發的部分這主要也是要為了掌握我們自有的油氣的能源那我們會加強國內外入海域的一個探勘的一個工作慎選國外的一個目標國家來爭取新礦區 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3154.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3175.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
同時在國內的部分會進行土廠低熱井的一個鑽探、地熱廠的一個建置以及鐵棧山碳補存的一個先導試驗計畫在國外的部分也會去爭取跟國際大油公司的碳採合作的機會在今年我們編列的碳供應費預算是63.37億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3178.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3207.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
另外在服務品質提升的部分剛我們董事長已經做了詳細的說明我這邊就不再贅述另外在研究發展的部分今年我們研發預算的編列是51.49億元佔營業收入是0.42%研究發的領域包括了四個方面包括智慧綠能、高值材料、循環經濟、智慧安環等四個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3208.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3225.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
在公安環保改善的部分我們會著重在工作的紀律跟落實持續從制度面、設備面以及執行面來進行改善今年編列的公安環保及衛生的預算是編列115.88億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3228.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3232.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
在固定資產投資的部分今年投資總額編列預算是528.5億元在專案計畫的部分15項編列了337.07億元另外有三項的新興計畫另外還有一般建築及設備的計畫預算也編列了191.43億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3254.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3277.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那麼預估我們今年在收支營業的部分今年的預算收入總額到達一兆兩千兩百五十四點五六億元那麼總支出是一兆兩千兩百二十七點五六億元那麼預計我們今年的淨利預算的編列淨利是二十七億元那麼跟上年度來比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3278.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3294.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們增加了25.21億元的一個淨利那麼這個主要的考慮是因為在預估我們今年的原油價格跟去年來比它是下跌的情況而且在原油進口的成本減少之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3295.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3319.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
以及在天然氣進口的成本回穩之下今年來講,淨利會較去年增加另外也做說明對於這個油價以及預算油價的一個編列情形112年Brandt的油價平均每桶83美元因為OPEC Plus的一個延長減產協議到今年年底同時也在額外減產 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3321.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3340.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
減產到今年的6月底所以市場上普遍的評估今年的油價會維持在每桶80美元以上所以我們今年編列的預算是以比較保守的油價每桶80.5元來去編列那麼上述合理那麼以上報告敬請會議指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3349.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3367.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
謝謝方正總經理的報告我們現在開始進行詢答委員質詢前原例做幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記首先我們請登記第一位陳婷菲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3378.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3403.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
謝謝主席,我們請部長來,請王部長是,委員好部長我們一直強調就是說在台電的部分因為非戰之罪這是整個國際情勢然後二五戰爭而造成的一個狀況那所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3404.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3429.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這一個天然氣等等的一些原物料整個上漲所以導致台電這個店家的部分有虧損而且虧損的比例是增加那我們認為這個部分不應該由我們人民來買單全面買單我們才認為說應該要來編列預算去做這樣的一個所謂的撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3431.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3456.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
可是好像我們的主計長跟你的態度有點不一樣主計長的態度是說現在可運用的才1500億那如果全部都給你台電來做這樣的一個虧損補貼的話那麼政府手上可以用的餘額幾乎沒有這是很危險的那這怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3457.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3457.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
1500億當時候是誰訂出來的? |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3485.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3512.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
一千五百億不是定的問題而是說我們希望爭取跟院裡面爭取是啊就是說你這個應該也是你們有計算過的嗎大概是要有這樣的金額嗎是不是是怎麼樣的金額其實是我們只能表達說希望院裡面可以怎麼樣來支持當然我說部長這個1500億也是你當時候台電經過計算然後最小的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3513.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3517.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
一個對於民眾整個漲電價壓力的一個數字嘛應該是這個樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3523.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3544.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那所以才會有1500億張的數字這個應該也是你們已經有估算過的你們也因為估算過才用這樣去跟行政院提出我們的訴求那當然行政院還沒核定但是我們看到主計長、主計總署他的態度就不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3546.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3554.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那如果今天沒有到達1500億那是不是有可能我們漲的電費會更高? |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3556.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3561.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
相關的這個細節坦白講那個很多的數據然後我們會很來精算那另外一個就是說在過往電價審議會這邊也其實都有考慮到確實包括通膨的問題怎麼樣怎麼樣做細緻的安排那也確實前兩次也有這樣的例子不是部長因為今天這個新聞一出來大家開始擔心啊因為1500億是當時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3586.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3606.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
經濟部一定是經由我們國營會台電大家估算過大概有1500億會對於整個電價的虧損跟我們漲電價的壓力會減到最輕所以才有這個數字可是現在主計總署的意思是我們如果要用1500億 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3608.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3628.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
可能未來政府的一個運用餘額就會不夠會有危險所以這個會產生什麼樣的狀況那是不是如果萬一沒有1500億會漲得更高部長我今天在這裡慎重拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3630.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3658.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
今天我們不能讓人民有太多壓力在電價部分我們一直講既然有撥補或是有虧損的一個補貼我們要從民生不論多少就是從民生不要讓民生漲得太高你一漲的話會轉嫁到物價物價一上去就回不來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3660.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3688.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
現在承受不了現在的狀況是承受不了的部長可不可以是是委員提到的這個部分確實也是店家審議會裡面最關切的其中一個議題那這個我們會細緻的安排是就是不論你今天最後院版拍板定案跟主計總處協調到哪一個金額不管多少金額都是要由民生 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3690.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3718.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
先去做這樣的一個撥補補貼絕對不能讓整個民生壓力造成炸鍋這個是我們再三拜託否則今天我相信這樣的一個新聞出來大家就開始議論紛紛了是不是會一飛從天一次漲到夠一次漲到足 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3719.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3747.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這些很多的問號就出來了對現在整個民生經濟的發展絕對是不利的是我們都會很仔細的來考慮委員提的這些問題這個部長要麻煩一下齁是極力爭取回歸民生是讓民生能夠穩定住物價這才是我們在經濟發展當中非常重要的依據還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3750.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3775.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我之前非常關心的就是我們的管線問題部長我們地下管線的圖資國營事業地下管線圖資是由國營司在負責的但是你知道當時候其實台南就發生了台南山上淨水廠下游送水管線的工程被挖斷管路 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3778.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3805.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
上個禮拜台南仁德又發生了天然氣管線遭挖斷雖然緊急處置後還有待修復可是雖然馬上去做了緊急處理可是表示這是有危機的我們地下管線的圖資根本沒有辦法監控挖下去發生問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3808.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3814.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
才知道怎麼彌補可是如果沒有挖到大家就覺得是這樣嗎我們的圖資在地底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3818.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3820.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3839.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3859.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
地形有一點點變動這是第一個那第二個早期也不可能變動到說因為他在施工一定有一個所謂的阿蘇比的空間他不可能說我今天就從他旁邊硬是要把他挖進去不可能嘛他一定有一個緩衝那這個緩衝請問怎麼可能會因為整個地質變動然後差了那麼遠差了那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3869.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3872.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
現在這些我有責成大家第一個有新的科技第二個有一些比較好的工法來預防這些再挖斷的問題現在就是有可以在施工前使用探測儀器進行探測現在是重點我們有沒有落實大家就便宜行事 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3892.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3892.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
關於經濟部主管．3月11日及14日三天一次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3923.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3949.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
之前我就要求過了現在還沒看到半點文字麻煩一下一個月馬上給我們他們前幾天有送一份報告是剛送那個不很清楚不很清楚我要清楚你們未來SOP要怎麼做謝謝來那個國營司可以嗎一個月內可以把清楚的資料都送然後也送給經濟委員會的每一位委員好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3959.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3985.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們請邱映昭委質詢謝謝我直接請中油董事長請中油董事長董事長您好請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3993.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3997.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
您剛剛的報告我們知道中油去年的虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3998.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4022.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
大概是有累計虧損達到318億那今年到目前為止到2月為止你們的虧損、營虧大概是負的102億同事請教您覺得今年的整體的營利狀況或者是整體中油的營運狀況會是怎麼樣有沒有可能今年會轉虧為營 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4025.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4033.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
依照您剛剛有一些國際的因素啦等等有沒有可能?根文報告我們內部根據國際大機構的油價跟氣價的預估我們認為到年底這個大概打平 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4041.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4041.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
〔記者訪問〕 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4063.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4064.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
接下來我要請教您的第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4094.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4121.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個我們去年也問過這部長昨天在經濟部的業務報告的時候也表示在這個能源政策的方面今年氫能跟地熱要列為優先的布局對不對董事長為什麼特別點名您上來我去年也問過您您說在去年的年底2023年要引進全台的首座移動式的加氫站 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4122.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4144.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
現在已經2024年了請問您的手作移動式加輕站在哪裡我們到目前為止還看不到這個加輕站既然經濟部認為輕能是優先的佈局但是我常常覺得中油在您的帶領之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4145.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4174.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
沒有大錯但是呢也沒有太大的進步就您可能個性比較保守所以很多事情你不敢大步的往前走比如說您去年答應的這個嘉青站到底在哪裡沒看到來我再給您看一下我們要推動輕能要推動輕能的嘉青站你必須要讓這個嘉青站普及我們才有可能去推動嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4176.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4203.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這是世界各國美國呢他們要投入70億美元要去蓋7個氫能中心歐洲要在2030年之前要產生1000萬噸的再生的氫能源那你說包括日本、韓國他們的這個氫能是蓬勃發展可是我目前為止我看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4204.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4227.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
到底台灣的輕能發展的策略在哪裡我連一座移動式的嘉慶站都等不到啊來 董事長您要不要說明一下謝謝委員的指導我想我們本來目標確定是去年年底希望能夠引進第一座可移動式的嘉慶站那我們其實跟得標廠商是德國的令的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4229.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4251.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
在整個過程中大概有一些misunderstanding所以他本來預定去年11月之前可以交貨的那整個要延到今年目前我們跟他談的最新進度是今年6月才能夠交貨那我們在這個月3月11號也完成FAT就是到Factory去做一些場的一個驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4253.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4279.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這部分我們其實也在去年11月能源署公布的加清站清燃料這樣子一個設置經營許可的管理辦法出來以後我們也跟高雄市政府來去遞件因為我們第一座加清站準備是在高雄市政府那也跟城市長做過報告那目前這部分的規劃如果順利的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4280.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4292.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
或許應該今年等於是6月進來以後我們在場裏面還是要做SAT就是Site要再做一次驗證然後我們正好已經在做品類工作場所的一個審核那我們已經完成QI有機會在第三季 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4298.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4319.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
按照您這樣講的時程規劃今年也做不完啊 今年也設置不了啊你說有一些misunderstanding可是去年才問你的你跟我 你們就很坦白的很直接的告訴我們說2023年底就要引進第一座的移動式嘉青站現在問你 你跟我說因為有誤解所以要搞到今年6月那 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4323.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4349.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我就不曉得您現在講的這些時程我聽起來今年年底要完成都拚架我們上個禮拜開過檢討會我剛講到就是說美國他要投入70億美元喔那我現在看到你們的這些你的氫能要做的事情好像也沒有特別的這個經費在裡面然後呢再生能源的部分比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4350.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4374.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
中油很厲害的是探勘 對不對這個是中油的強項嘛那在你們的報告書裡面也有講到你們的油氣探勘跟開發剛剛我還特別聽到了包括您跟總經理都也特別談到你們要做所謂的碳捕捉、碳封存跟所有的這些研究那你的這一些研究的費用編列了63.37億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4377.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4392.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
人家是編列70億的美元你是編列63.37那依照你們這樣的保守的性格你的這個碳捕捉的研究、碳封存的研究甚至你所有的這一些包括地熱 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4393.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4415.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
的建制、研究我不知道要什麼時候才會完成。 說到底中油在政府的再生能源推動政策上面的腳步你能不能跟得上我這個pop point寫說你能不能跟得上世界的腳步我現在要問說你能不能跟得上台灣整體再生能源發展的腳步 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4416.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4425.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我都已經不捨求你跟得上世界的腳步啦就台灣整體的能源政策來講中油你能不能跟得上啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4426.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4449.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
董事長跟委員報告因為政府其實付給台灣中油公司要做清冷的供應車甚至包括未來到2050的量能我們其實都依照這個政策在努力我知道你依照政策嘛但是你依照政策的速度、布局、腳步、時程都比我們大家預期的還要慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4450.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4473.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以這個是我一直說您比較保守的原因嘛你沒有能力或者是說你不敢再更大步的往前走或者是授權大家更大步更快速的往前衝嘛你告訴我說你是依照政府的政策沒有錯依照政府的政策但是你可以大步的往前走嘛你可以加緊速度嘛世界已經往前走到走到這麼前面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4473.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4474.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4514.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4517.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
請問部長你跟那個主計長最近有機會討論過你要的1500億這次的嗎?我們其實經濟部跟主計總署都有密切在聯繫主計政府今天說 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4540.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4559.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
不像經濟部的方案所以他目前沒辦法決定阿媒體說他在躲你阿你要去要1500億他躲起來是不是不會啦不會你們兩個坐下來談過了沒有我們其實都有在做整體的溝通討論是阿所以他沒有躲你沒有啦沒有不會阿不然他講到不像經濟部的案 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4561.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4572.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我再確認一下那個相關的同仁的聯繫的情況。 是。 是。 他說的意思就是沒看到案,所以沒辦法,我一定要罵很多人,我今天說的是說只剩下1500億啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4574.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4596.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以說剩餘,不是說已經大家在講會有三千五百億,他說現在能用的只有1500億,那你要投1500億,他就講了兩個點,他說我落地就沒錢了,對不對,全部給你,我就沒有剩餘啦。第二個,他說他要編一百十四年明年的預算,他就有困難了。那現在怎麼辦?他現在投1500億,你全部拿走,他又有困難。 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4597.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4598.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4598.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4599.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
電價會漲得很高嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4599.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4612.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們當然院裡面的怎麼樣撥補的部分由院裡面來做決策 那當然我們經濟部要提供詳細的資料給他對對 不然你現在很麻煩啦 第一你馬上找他這是第一行對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4612.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4616.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
是是是第一他快沒看到方案 你趕快把方案給他好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4616.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4621.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那現在給你一個時間點 你現在公開跟他喊話啊 你沒請我用你等一下會不會漲多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4621.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4644.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
沒有沒有 這個當然審計委員會去算 趕快約他趕快碰面 第二方案趕快給他好不好 是是那第二個也很重要 那現在看起來1500億 我覺得可能一千也有可能啦 如果只剩下1000億 那是不是調補整個電價調補會很大 包括民生用電也會調很多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4646.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4654.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個主計那個我們審議委員會這邊會都會在工作當中那這個一定會提到的照顧民生。 1500億對經濟部跟對台電非常重要對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4664.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4666.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你休息一下,我們請中油董事長你們從105年開始,這八年啊你們到海外 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4693.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4720.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
去探勘海域的探勘已經落30億了打水漂是不是?都降估了已經損失了30億是不是這樣?這是人民納稅錢30億丟到海裡去了嗎?跟委員報告齁如果整個從探勘我們整體包括海內外整個我們根據報告其實是有獲利的是有獲利的路上有獲利嘛那為什麼海域 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4722.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4729.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
已經賠償了,已經60、30、30億了,已經損失了30億,而且今年的最新的預算書,你今年要再落腳下去喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4731.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4757.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
不要講說人民納稅錢這30億丟到海裡去了你今年要再拿下去你有把握嗎這6億會不會又丟到水裡去打水漂又不見了我想探勘本來就是存在高獲利高風險那這個我們其實在看就會整體包裹來看不會只有針對某一個點來看他是虧還是淫意所以這個也謝謝委員在 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4758.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4779.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
立法院的預算給我們子彈讓我們可以去尋求機會那我想本來這裡面就是我們會根據相關的資料海外的這個遊記的這個探勘你在路上有賺到錢嘛對不對那海益為什麼損失這麼多這要好好想啊甚至在今年這個6億一定要投嗎更重要你該想想看到底有多少把握第二個你美女還要編嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4781.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4785.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
你路上如果有賺錢你就都投資路上的啊,是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4785.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4789.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
目前公司到處都是這樣,尤其你是用了人民納稅錢喔,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4789.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4795.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
是,跟委員報告,事實上我們有一個評估,有五大項在看,它的整個成功率多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4795.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4803.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我現在問你,現在你們很重要的,就是說現在已經損失30億丟到海裡了,這6億到底能不能回本? |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4803.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4803.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
最重要回本吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4804.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4806.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
你去海外的這個探勘這麼多,有四個國家都掛鈴欸,都共顧欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4821.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4839.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
印尼、巴拉圭、索馬、利蘭、墨西哥這四個國家都在測什麼東西?為什麼一直都鞏固?不是,現在還沒到生產階段,現在還在測砍齁所以測砍之後才知道...你已經...你為一百看五年就起啦,你八年還在測...啊?不是這...啊這八年是什麼?這八年為什麼都是0? |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4841.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4868.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
像那個其實在美國Lafish其實據我知道我們是有一些油氣出來因為KFish是CRC這邊我們也去跟他談過那至於Israel應該是印尼嘛是我們這幾年投入我們這幾年投入6個礦區你給我一個你叫的預算書上面明明白白寫的就是零阿都掛零阿現在是在測看階段嘛現在在測看階段嘛所以什麼時候才會回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4870.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4874.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個我們要看側看之後這一口井到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4876.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4905.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
已經8年了因為你這個我們再澄清一下105年開始投入因為我記得是在我接總經理之後我們投入這個案子在海上跟海域的已經虧損很大這個要注意好不好有些國家一直都鞏固了也要注意好不好那接下來問你一個是很重要國人很關心的天然氣的安全存量安全存量培洛西那時候來台灣以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4906.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4909.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
中國大陸今年的7天對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4909.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4914.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們台灣到底天然氣的安全存量有多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4914.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4920.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
如果兩岸兵兇戰危中國大陸現在又開始有演習的話 我們可以撐幾天? |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4920.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4921.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
現在我們依據規定今年的安全存量是要8天 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4927.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4928.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你希望中國大陸的經驗都不要超過你的8天喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4941.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4944.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
臺灣培洛西他就是7天對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4944.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4956.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這邊現在大家很多人都認為說現在兩岸是緊繃的 二一螺旋一直在向上旋轉的時候 最危險的時候最敏感的時候就是中國大陸開完兩會嘛 11號已經開完大會對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4956.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4957.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
最敏感的時間就是到520嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4959.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4981.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
520之前可能就有演習會超過8天、9天你安全存量只有8天怎麼辦?到時候台灣不就斷氣了嗎?跟委員報告事實上我們跟台電有一個機制電跟氣有一個機制在協調我們會把存量存到最高所以我們希望除了除草容積天數之外事業安全存在天數也能夠拉高所以我們不斷在建除草那如果真的有一些狀況的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4982.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5003.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
臺電跟中油其實是國安問題嘛我們會展開雙方的一個機制那是不是要調整天然氣的用量調整其他能源配備的用量對啦當然你沒有在努力我現在說你跟全國的民眾講如果出現中國大陸今年或者有比較兵凶戰危的事情我們到底可以撐幾天天然氣沒有斷氣你對著全民講 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5004.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5030.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
對著全民講你可以撐幾天不會斷氣我跟委員報告喔事實上可以撐幾天要depend一些case你的假設前提你一定會盡最大努力嘛對不對盡最大努力最大努力可以撐幾天所以如果我們看到新聞報導或者是大陸開始有動作我們知道幾天內我們是安全的啊我想這個齁其實中油的重責大任也是經濟部的重責大任對不對是 也是國安單位的重責大任啊他們叫你要幾天你目前是可以當八天對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5033.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5040.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
最久可以動幾天?事實上這不能說撐幾天的問題我剛剛特別報告我跟台電之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5041.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5044.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5066.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5091.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們當然是以守住民生為主民生大概佔7%我們就是確保民生這一塊去做最大的努力讓他能夠撐得最久董事長我知道你很努力我是說你對全民對全台灣的民眾講清楚如果發生兵凶戰危你非常努力的狀況之下我們天然氣不會斷氣然後我們是安全的存量是安全的用電是安全的規管明確一個答案就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5092.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5093.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
有14天嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5093.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5094.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
會不會8天到14天? |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5094.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5107.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
不止。 不止啦。 不止。 有詳細的我們再跟委員中報告。 張委員,本席尊重您的質詢,但是我想您的問題是兩岸冰凶站尾的時候天然氣的儲存量夠不夠? |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5108.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5109.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
主席,不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5131.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5147.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我覺得這個關乎到國家的安全所以不宜在這裡用這樣子的title然後來質問中油董事長天然氣的儲存量在兵兇戰委的時候夠不夠他現在回答你10天你現在是要告訴中國說台灣的天然氣儲存量只有10天 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5148.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5153.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
主席,你應該傾覆董事長的智慧了,他不會講到一個八天,他一定講到一個彈性,這是大家要重視的安全,不是洩漏國家機密,而且這是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5164.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5177.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲存容量的規定。這是一個公開的事情不是嗎?我是說你的努力之下你能夠有一個多大的彈性。 董事長您在私下跟張委員做報告好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5177.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5177.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
主席你剛剛講那個很嚴重喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5180.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5184.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
對,我講這個很嚴重所以你自己也知道這個很嚴重你不應該在這裡問這樣的一個問題您問的這個問題跟那一天您問的這個問題跟那一天大鴻主委被記者問到說他什麼他要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5195.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5196.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5224.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5253.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
鄭天才委員嚴重的抗議主席這樣的那個要不要回答是董事長要不要回答主席有才事權這是主席的職權請尊重主席好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5257.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5258.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那您現在不質詢了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5258.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5270.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我當然要質詢啊。 好啊,那就請... 要不要回答是董事長去決定的,不是你去決定的。 我沒有不讓他回答,我只是讓董事長私下來跟張委員報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5273.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5295.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這關乎國家安全我更在乎的是國家安全好嗎沒有影響到任何人的質詢權剛剛的時間是張委員的質詢時間已經截止了你可以提醒他時間到了而不是這樣子主席可以做才是的這是主席的職權好請那個部長來請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5308.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5324.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
部長好,現在是看守內閣應暫停不利於人民的政策而就經濟部所主管的來講就是不應該調漲電價雖然一直講說事業作為部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5335.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5358.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
對於在看守內閣的期間真的是不應該調漲電價這個就暫停留給新的內閣也許你細任也許你高深就留給新的內閣可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5359.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5376.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我想第一個就整個電價的審議本來就有機制那第二個事實上現在還是連續執政所以我想這個政策上應該要去做要去考慮的事情還是要去認真來執行是好當然這個看守內閣到底要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5384.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5406.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
法律目前法律比較明確的就是這個公務人員任用法8、26條之一這裡面各機關首長以下列期間不得任用或簽調人員憲法第6款憲法後法規未定有任期之中央各級機關政務首長以總統競選連任未當選 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5411.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5436.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
或未在競選連任時至次借該項選舉當選的名單公告之次日起至當選人先是就之職這個是比較明確的法律就是對於這個公務人員的一個任用那其他的其實就是過去的政策過去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5438.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5461.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
過去的慣例去推動這個部分請部長來做參考就我們行政院陳建仁院長就特別提到雖然是號稱看守內閣但會繼續提出扶國立民的方案所以有利人民大家不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5463.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5492.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
太在意而且應該是要去推動但是不利於人民的就應該交移給這個新的內閣新的內閣所以這個部分這個還是要請部長能夠三思這個過去也不是沒有過過去也不是沒有過何況二屋戰爭所帶來的影響也不是今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5495.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5513.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
去年就產生了很大的影響但是還是做了暫停的一個處理我想臺電的穩健經營對整個臺灣的供電是非常重要當然當然我們都知道這個部長你請回座請董事長來董事長好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5524.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5545.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個民生、食衣住行尤其是水電、糧食、水電、石油、天然氣是民生最重要的這個部分所以你這個中油公司這裡面你的報告裡面提到這個不及再生能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5546.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5574.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那花蓮台東地熱區這個部分請這個時間的關係就請董事長回去再提供這個目前的一個花東地區地熱能的辦理情形是好這裡面這個要謝謝忠友雖然有俄烏戰爭的影響但是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5577.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5585.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
為了配合穩定物價政策,售價未配合油電、油氣價公式足以調整。 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5598.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5623.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個就是為了民生所以要請中油繼續的不要寫台電繼續的來去穩定相關的這些物價的政策所以這個部分要請你繼續協助好,我要接下來談的是原住民的就業的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5624.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5649.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
原住民就業的問題看起來是跟你沒有關係事實上是有很大的這個你只要願意做就可以去做蔡總統在2015年8月1號提出的原住民族就業政策保障上望的新的工作機會開創永續的原住民族經濟發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5651.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5673.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
他說保障上望新的工作就政府要負擔保障原住民就業的責任這個是一個蔡總統在2015年8月1號所提出來的所以這個部分我們看中油在112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5676.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5697.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個招考一般類有19個類別招考了828人請問一下這個董事長你有沒有印象有沒有特別針對原住民的招考的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5699.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5717.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這個委員這個我再把資料再跟委員做說明但是依我了解政府公司不只是遵循法規我們其實包括在原住民的任用還有包括在一些特定人士的任用我們絕對都比法規要求的還要高那詳細資料我來了解一下再跟委員報告好這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5722.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5749.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
就請提供105年到現在是歷年原住民經用的人數這個中油那113年的招考你們也要即將辦理對不對是我建議這個董事長這個能夠參考台電台電他就有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5751.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5751.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
謝謝鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5779.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5780.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5795.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5819.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好主席美麗的主席本席要發言以前因為我們兩位都是最美麗的主席因為經濟委員會呢都是非常的和諧而且大家都很好都為國家所以我也看到那個電視啊我也希望我們經濟委員會還是維持原來的和諧為國家做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5822.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5823.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5823.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5846.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝 來請我們的部長來 部長你這個 等等等等等這個楊委員您說明清楚吧你剛剛這樣講好像我沒有在為國家做事我說我們的目的都是要為國家做事但是整個過程我們因為我們都是召委經濟委員會大家都是非常的和諧而且非常的尊重所有的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5847.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5875.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
包括我在主席的時候我相信你在主持的時候也是如此所以張恩看到那個畫面讓我也很下渴因為在經濟委員會怎麼會有如此主席本席發言請王部長我還是要強調一下因為剛剛張其凱委員的質詢時間已經到而且我認為他的質詢的問題內容其實有涉及國家安全所以我希望中油的董事長私下來跟張委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5876.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5883.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
國家安全就不能私下了,怎麼可以私下國家安全就是可講跟不講這個天然氣保存本來就是最高可以放過天然氣保存的是可以問但是你的前提是在打仗的情況之下我認為這個涉及國家安全這個是自己中油也公佈阿好了現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5902.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5916.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這沒有什麼國安問題啦我希望他私下尊重每一位發言的委員請尊重每一位發言的委員現在是本席質詢請主席採視 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5918.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5939.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我好我一分鐘齁你怎麼可以一分鐘現在是我質詢你已經叫我30秒一樣啊國外事件就沒有私底下的問題那也請您互相尊重啊因為我是主持人對阿所以請你才是你已經叫我上來阿不然我要再下去囉我是會議的主席所以你也請您尊重我的主持方式當然阿所以你已經叫我你已經請我上來啦我也給你鞠躬啦我們請王部長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5949.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5972.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
主席北京也再請李董事長一起我們來討論來請李董事長謝謝部長我想邀請你跟李董事長一起我們就實質來討論因為現在我們仰賴液化的天然氣LNG的進口所以我們大家都關心國安的焦點之一但是經過我們的統計我 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5974.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5987.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們統計出台灣運用天然氣發電的比例50%但是能夠自主運輸的量大概就只有10%那剩下的我們就要依賴國外的採購那國外的採購像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5990.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5991.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
是不是啊部長? |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6018.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6018.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
中油目前我們是以賣方包運DS的方式去採購天然氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6046.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6071.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
除了有這樣的問題之外在運輸部分我們每一年必須要增加600億的支出我們也知道目前為止中油的這個樣態也必須要全力的支持中油因為沒油這就車也不走什麼都氣也產生不出來什麼都會有問題所以在這樣的情況之下本是要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6072.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6096.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
本席從第10屆就要求經濟部、中油為了維持能源的供應穩定那國企國運我們必須要去實施那部長你當時我也很歡喜很高興你承諾出朝這個方向去努力所以本席首先要請問的是我們的國企國運的作業進程現在如何請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6099.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6115.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
跟委員報告,事實上中油公司跟海運還有海營總署,就是航商所組成的海營總署,討論過很多很多的這個方案那當然現在在整個優先決標跟優先承認這兩個雙方還有一點點歧見持續在收斂之中,我們最近會再開一次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6122.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6126.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是我們不怕苦所以的關鍵哪裡可以解套好好去想辦法因為為了國內的能源穩定這一個國氣、國運是佔了很重要的角色不過跟我們報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6152.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6154.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
國際國運哪一種比較好? |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6154.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6173.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
FOV還是DES那一種比較好?其實決定了很多條件啊齁好你現在說到這裡李董你現在對當然所以你的DES方式現在是賣方來包運那你是不是有可能去考慮買方來包運的方式呢?我們可以節省成本啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6173.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6177.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
事實上不一定節省成本所以這個不一定要釐清的像我們像CES的話前年二五戰爭之後這個運費暴漲兵險暴漲都是賣方吸收所以董事長跟部長在這邊也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6190.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6219.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們討論到現在就是說為什麼我們必須要有更多條路來保障我們的能源安全因為有時候那邊暴漲有時候那邊暴跌所以我們要運用哪一種方式李董事長剛才回答的有一句本席蠻贊同就是到底我們用哪個方式可以讓我們節省而且最重要是穩定我們的能源這是最重要的 是是各位報告我們其實努力的方向就是說多元分散然後穩定供應然後加上價格具有競爭性 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6220.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6245.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
當然啊!當然啊!但是你現在給我們整個公司的業務是馬拉斯而且很緊張啊!所以我們會想盡一切辦法,什麼樣的方式可以給中油更穩定啊!對不對?那你把你討論越來越濃縮的方案,朝這個方向趕快再去努力好不好?我們一直努力一直努力齁!那接下來,你請回座接下來本席要請教齁,本席要請教部長,我還是跟你討論一下電的問題媒體說22號就要宣布嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6252.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6263.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
會嗎?22號要宣布漲或不漲,漲要漲多少?是不是22號?具體的時程我沒有掌握到。你看到媒體報導的22號嗎?我還沒有掌握到,是。那我告訴你,今天的媒體報導說22號可能會宣布,那今天是幾號了?10幾號?今天14。14號距離22剩下一個禮拜。 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6274.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6293.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為當時告訴我們審議委員會會在3月中到3月底20來會開那所以這個22號不是不可能那所以請教部長主計總書說如果把1500億叫去年度的來撥補給台電那我們國家沒有盈餘他講的這個數字對嗎一個國家撥補1500億就沒有盈餘那我們台灣怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6298.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6326.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
不能這樣恐嚇民眾嘛那所以請教請教部長昨天你也回答本席我也給你鼓勵給你加油我說不然我我也願意親自到行政院去拜託第一個方案就是說行政院支援我們你也是列為第一個方案嘛那你現在談論的他要支援我們多少要撥補給台電多少目前確實到今天為止還沒有定案還沒有定案那你有跟行政院長講過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6328.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6333.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們跟院裡面都有密切在聯繫有嗎?有跟行政院長陳院長講過了嗎?有沒有?你跟陳院長講過了嗎?因為建在學校院長知道那他支不支持你這個1500億撥補回來給台電呢?院長支持要來撥補台電那相關的經費的部分就是要多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6356.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6376.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
經費的部分就是要精算請教部長你給他報告多少他給多少是他的事你給他報告多少我想我們有提出來你提出多少因為這個還是要你提出兩千億嗎這個還是要以院裡面最後的決定當然那是院的決定就像你報給審議委員會那審議委員會去做決定那我請問你給院長報告多少兩千億嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6382.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6382.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
1500億有1500億嗎?有報告方案是不是1500億? |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6404.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6410.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們支持一定要支持因為主席總書會講出這個數字應該我預估應該是部長你人心人數啊330度以下的不能講 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6418.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6419.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
總計總書如果真的我希望他是誤說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6442.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6468.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
如果一個國家1500億鋪給我們台灣鋪給我們台電就沒有營餘這樣子蠻橫的恐嚇老百姓不對的所以站在你部長的立場他會講出這個數字應該是你有講1500億嘛對不對謝謝委員支持你明明笑我就知道你應該是如此我一定支持所以你一定要幫我們爭取到所以剛剛我所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6469.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6470.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好 謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請張家俊委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6505.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6521.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
主席我首先也想要表達一下雖然我剛剛是錯過了但是我想我們大家都將心比心希望大家都能夠互相維持一下這個委員的質詢的權益那我是接下來請那個王部長來請王部長部長我想要再請問您一次我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6529.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6534.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
台電這一次預計要漲電價到底是什麼理由? |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6536.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6545.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
台電確實因為之前吸收了非常多的成本所以虧損的情形讓他的財務比較嚴峻難道不是因為能源價格飆高才要漲電價嗎?就是因為國際的燃料成本確實是漲得非常多所以讓台電吸收了非常多成本113年度台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6559.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6582.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
的這個幾種燃料費用和能燃料燃油燃氣等等占比最高的是什麼113年的部分應該是燃氣的部分天然氣沒錯就是佔了61%那既然佔了61%您知道台電的天然氣是跟誰買的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6584.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6598.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
臺電跟中油買的是的就是跟中油買的中油擁有國內天然氣市場的專賣權所以請教部長臺電向中油買天然氣的價格是多少這個中油是會按照他的相關的情形跟國際的狀況去做變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6609.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6615.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
15.75塊每立方公尺15.75塊每立方公尺應該可以看得到你仔細看一看電業用戶15.75塊這一個牌價這就是說賣給台電是最貴的甚至比氣電共生系統都高了將近兩倍的價格為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6640.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6648.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
目前的這個中油它賣的用戶有台電、有工業、有民生那我們確實... 你自己看一看比工業用戶大大多了將近兩倍的價格所以賣給台電是最貴的然後所以這等於是說左手賣右手都是你經濟部所屬的公司然後現在台電說虧損了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6666.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6671.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
然後要全民漲電價 這不是都是讓全民買單嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6673.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6688.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就相關的這個天然氣的部分我們確實在民生跟工業的部分因為穩定物價的關係確實目前都還沒有調整到原來的水準我不能理解的是說怎麼會我們中油賣給台電這麼貴然後賣給一般的用戶便宜這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6700.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6713.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
等於是臺電跟中油是經濟部國內能源的左右手左手賣給右手特別貴的價錢然後右手哭哭說我受不了了我要漲電價然後要拉高這個價格要向人民卡油 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6719.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6719.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這樣說得過去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6719.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6720.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這不就是台電跟中油聯合向人民卡油讓人民買單嗎?應該不能這樣講齁因為中油賣給台電的部分在這個過往他其實國際非常貴的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6735.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6757.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他也沒有反映充足的成本。第二個在民生的部分鄉委員也一直提到這箱包括桶裝的瓦斯不要炸所以事實上現在賣給民生的確實遠低於成本沒有錯所以我現在想要提的就是說所以經濟部除了向行政院爭取1500億的補貼之外應該也要搭配調降中油賣給 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6765.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6771.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
臺電的天然氣的價格您同意嗎這個部分都有其實都有緩步的在調降我是不是也要請那個董事長李董是不是也能夠隨著現在國際的天然氣價格調降你們賣給臺電的價格也能夠調降呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6785.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6792.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
根委員報告事實上從去年的3月開始我們對台電的這個天然氣的價格已經調降了6次最高其實是在20塊3毛6現在已經逐步降到15塊我講的是未含稅那根委員報告這裡面我們已經將近3年民生公用這邊沒有調整從110年的6月開始所以這部分我們就是為了穩定物價所以民生公用我們就維持8塊3毛5 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6811.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6815.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
本席拜託李董我知道您是從基層做起這一點希望你務必用專業一定要能夠調降這個價格讓台電能夠止損希望他可以不要再繼續虧損能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6830.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6857.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
等於是不要再繼續像明年假設明年我們還要再補貼它真的我很難想像說如果假設明年還要再漲電價我們國家真的是吃不消那部長我在這裡還是要再一次的訴求希望說除了統裝瓦斯不要漲之外用電這個330度以下的弱勢用戶不要調漲包括農漁牧用電不要調漲這一點部長是不是可以拜託您 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6859.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6874.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
謝謝委員那再再加聲因為對很多的這個參數跟因素我們都會很仔細的來考量是特別再一次的呼籲特別再一次的拜託那目前我也想要趁這個機會因為現在綠能其實有很多很多的弊案也好或者是人民的疑惑也好就是在我們雲林縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6884.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6900.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
現在有很多的土地都被化為低地利而且是沒有跟地方溝通之下就被化為低地利很多的土地明明都還在耕作就被化為低地利其實這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6902.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6913.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
引起地方很多的反彈甚至喔像以口湖鄉為例啊口湖鄉一個鄉就被劃了2000多公頃他整個鄉等於是三分之一都被劃為滴滴利等於不鼓勵他生產不鼓勵他養殖整個鄉是為之沸騰所以部長你怎麼看這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6925.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6932.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
事實上農委會在認定它是滴滴都其實是非常謹慎那另外一個就是說假設農民還有在農作的部分那這個在個案審查的時候能不能來利用做這個相關的能源其實都會參考它現在的實際的使用的狀況並不是說講了就一定都會去把它變更成農地 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6949.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6973.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以我現在想要提醒經濟部的是在規劃的過程必須考慮到這些人的心聲不要讓農民成為光電產業下的犧牲者不會不會如果他還在農作的部分那這個我們相關的部會在審的時候一定都會考慮好特別拜託謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6983.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6988.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
主席好,我想先請教一下那個台電董事長,中油董事長抱歉,中油董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6995.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7019.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
董事長好 委員好我先repeat一下剛剛我們張祺凱委員他所提出來的問題那我想說因為依據天然氣失業法的時候這個本來就有很具體的一個規定經濟部他也在100年就已經公告了就是依據天然氣生產或進口失業自備儲槽容量這個規定你應該很清楚嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7020.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7033.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
因為兩岸兵兇戰危目前台灣天然氣的儲量夠嗎?這是我完全repeat剛剛張其海委員的問題夠沒有問題我們大概可以維持幾天的儲量 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7035.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7061.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我想我們目前我們的這個隆基天數是規定是11天那我們事實上有16、7天那事業安全存量天數規定是8天我們有11天所以它規定是8天我們有11天對對對然後隆基天數其實我們達到16天然後隆基天數可以到16天對不對OK那聽起來其實已經比這個相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7063.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7081.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
有更好的一個儲存儲槽容量對不對?不過我這邊我也提供了一個義大利的數字給你看從2019年義大利他就很具體提出來他們的儲備容量是60天那60天當中而且他們是以高峰值的50%去計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7083.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7109.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那我們你剛剛預計這個8天或者是16天這個部分他是用什麼樣的方式計算是整天的一個使用量去算還是用什麼樣的數字去算我跟委員報告龍基存量天數現在歸定11天事實上我們來到差不多18、9天將近20天那這個怎麼算呢我目前所有的中油公司的天然氣的儲槽比如說我在永安有6座有69萬公屏 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7110.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7126.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我在台中有6座有96萬公秉未來在三屆會蓋兩座16萬公秉所以說越來越高啦 對不對所以現在剛剛你剛剛找到最高的數字從規定的8天、11天、16天到現在是20天嘛是不是那是農機除草農機嘛將近20天 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7128.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7154.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是,將近20天嘛,OK好那這個部分我想是所有國人都關心的問題尤其是在520之前其實坦白說兩岸的局勢相對緊張那麼大家都擔心兵凶戰危然後也擔心整個被封鎖之後影響到整個台灣能源的供應所以這個部分我就先提出來那我接下來我繼續因為你很具體的回答了我就開始去問接下來的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7154.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7161.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那那個我們看到整個我們的預算書還有之前的結算書當中的時候我們看到就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7164.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7178.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
今年預計長期借款會暴增500億然後整個利息的支出大概會增加100多億這兩個數字都沒有錯嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7178.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7188.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
是的我想問一下為什麼要長期借款要增加然後增加這麼多的部分主要是為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7189.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7210.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
跟委員報告事實上這幾年來從110年111、112這幾年政府公司在配合穩定物價政策我們光政策吸收天然氣就超過4千億油品也超過1千多億 那你說你長期借款這個部分是為了要去買天然氣去貸款的錢嗎?之前的部分就已經有了你這邊的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7211.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7227.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我看到你這邊的時候你長期借款這個部分很多時候是要配合國家政策去做投資嘛 對不對那我想特別問一下這麼多的投資的項目當中你為什麼會特別投入離岸風電海聖風場 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7229.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7254.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
有沒有特別的原因?我想這是中油公司多元能源布局的一部分,我們包括太陽光電在做除了海盛工廠,我們還投了哪些地方?我們光電就是,離亞風電就這一家就只有這一家對不對?那因為這邊的時候,就是中油投了15%那因為風場很多,我不曉得為什麼特別投到海盛風場是不是因為這個風場其實雲豹也有投資? |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7257.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7272.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
事實上我們公司要投資都有一個從那個總工這個系統再到整個企業的系統再到總的專業會議再到公司的討論之後再到本辦公室來具體說明一下因為風場其實很多嘛那為什麼特別投資這個風場 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7275.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7292.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
把那個整個評估的過程跟細節讓我們本席瞭解一下那海生風場是不是比其他風場都來得好這我們特別的關注然後另外我這邊也特別講一下我看到你們這邊所有的結算書跟預算書112年的累計虧損是318億對不對 這數字不錯對不對那我們預計113年的累計虧損會到249億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7302.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7316.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這是當時被預算的一個預估那這個數字會隨著油氣價格的變動而做調整所以說預計當中在今年當中的時候我們累計我們的整個營業的部分會變成有69億所以累計虧損才會減少是這個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7321.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7329.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
跟委員報告,事實上我們是到112年年底累積虧損318億但是這兩個月我們稅前虧了102億,稅後虧了84億所以我們累積虧損已經來到400億而已但是我們認為下半年,就是說第二季開始下半年應該會有一些好轉所以我們的累積虧損會減少,到時候我的淨值會再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7343.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7347.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
3月11日及14日三天一次會議3月11日及14日三天一次會議3月11日及14日三天一次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7373.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7388.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那是預算書的部分那事實上我們在這個過程中其實都還有一些譬如說投資性不動產的這個用形式去做評估投資不動產或者是儲分不動產類似嗎?不是不是它的價值會有一些變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7391.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7402.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
是價值變化只是帳上的變化並不是真正的一個收入的來源是所以我們還是希望說剛剛在提到的我們的負債那麼多我今年要負的這個複習負債達到147億來那因為這邊因為時間的關係我就很快的講一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7408.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7421.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
因為剛剛那36億當中我在想說你錢從哪裡來那我們也希望你能夠承諾就是在今年的時候能夠動漲民生的天然氣跟瓦斯的一個價格這有沒有辦法承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7421.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7448.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個是我們配合政府的政策那最後這邊預算中心這邊有特別提到一個部分就是我們的低度使用還有閒置土地那每年要支出3493萬的一個的那個地價稅的部分那裡面大概有9筆有9筆被預算中心特別列出來的情況那我們要怎麼樣去活化這些的使用我們有沒有具體的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7449.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7465.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
事實上我們有一個專門的部門叫做資產處我們在做我們一些目前一些土地的一個規劃一些活化都在進行這裡面有進行我看到你們的數字當中我先特別針對新竹市這邊有兩筆土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7468.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7493.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這個是它附近的土都長滿了那個植物了都沒有妥善去利用那我發現你們這兩個資料當中的時候公告限值它就2.79億可是你們預計的期望預期效益只有2.7億還不如它的公告限值那如果說你們預期效益這麼低的時候有沒有辦法讓這塊土地直接給新竹市政府來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7494.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7494.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
謝謝珍珍前委員接下來我們請陳超明委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7526.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7531.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
主席好現在有請我們經濟部長王部長要問好主席氣溫才不會那麼嚴峻部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7543.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7566.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
部長我在總執行在我們委員會的執行都有談到大矽谷計畫我們賴清德總統所提出來的就是陶子子苗矽谷計畫西部科技走廊那這裡面我今天為什麼在這個場合要談我先給你瞭解苗栗的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7567.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7588.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
跟他為了台灣經濟發展所付出的貢獻我們通宵火力發電廠在苗栗大概現在都是供用給北部的電現在我們整個北部的瓦斯也在我們通宵是一個轉失中心所以通宵可憐在哪裡都被你經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7590.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7612.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那台電公司的高特壓電把整個通宵都包圍起來,那感覺蜘蛛網在上面,感覺很壞,好像被蜘蛛網壓制一樣。再來一個可能,我們通宵所有地下的管路都是你們中油的管路這樣幫我們買來買去,那裡面的管路非常非常的多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7617.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7633.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
但是我苗栗很善良尤其中油公司臺電公司還有一個回饋專案中油公司都在那個地方沒有回饋讓我每天要來處理你們中油的事情都要我吃麵來解決因為中油41 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7637.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7653.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
經濟委員會監督的包括你們以後的溝通協調都要好還有我太了解你們了都聽你們講假話像你們要捕捉碳的那種要存放的時候你市院廠長也沒有跟先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7654.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7657.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
中縣長跟縣長講一下。 中縣長講說你實在太窮人了。 吃命啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7657.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7658.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
給修理一下! |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7658.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7666.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
不然他們都不懂得大聲喊。 來跟政府來拜一下嘛。 還有你們最近公安發出事情我去了解了一下。 不是公安事件是人為事。 但是那個聲音太大了。 大家以為中共的飛彈打進來了。 很緊張啊。 你知道這個情形嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7666.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7666.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
有有有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7683.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7709.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好,那我希望你中油討論一個端青木林企劃像台電一樣好不好是,我覺得這個中油要去致歉一下是中油你當部長你沒有答應中油哪裡敢答應有有應該要去致歉是是你要講支持還是贊成你這樣講的模擬兩口實在我不敢沒有沒有支持這個支持好那剛剛張委員在問到 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7712.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7732.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
其實全國都很怕戰爭那戰爭發生我們也要面對但是大家都在想以前的報告裡面天然氣說維持大概8到9天那現在我看你們的報告裡面你在天然氣穩定天然氣供應有8項計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7735.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7747.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個八項計畫讓我們了解你蓋了這麼多的屬於穩定天然氣供應的一個方式裡面到底有沒有增加天然氣對台灣的存量 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7749.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7767.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
存量當然要去增加 包括三街會去增加 那個台中港也會增加出廠以及廣州港也要增加 所以啊這種是讓國民安心的一個問題 你也不知道題目做的那麼大是國安計畫 我說這現在很簡單的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7769.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7784.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我電腦那個監控啊齁衛星幫你監控你多少船進來我都一千二十嘛那麽會安捏也麽會安捏所以這個沒有好隱瞞的如果確實有增進投資那麽大 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7785.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7802.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
你就跟我 我們已經在改進 我們在進行你們這樣跟不跟我說 還有這樣的問題 我覺得讓我們民眾的懷疑心會越來越大好啦 你講委員支持我都支持但是你要實際的詳細跟我講不要躲躲閃閃的讓我們不放心 不安心啦晚上不能好好睡覺好不好 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7814.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7840.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我替中油覺得委屈臺電跟中油都是非常好的公司尤其人才激起以前都是經營分子才進去沒有去留學留在這邊打拼了我覺得部長你對臺電比較好你們有一個次長當董事長這邊沒有次長當董事長你曉得他這四年虧損多少中油我賺給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7842.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7847.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
如果到7年度一共虧損了2505億台電6000億他這2550億那個董事長你們資本額多少?你的虧損超過你資本額了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7866.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7872.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以你的委屈我跟你講剛剛政府委員說你的利息那麼高你真的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7873.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7900.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是你比較乖你怎麼比較實在因為要有一個中油的當處長才來你才能平衡因為你無擔保債你今年打算花錢到3000億你不敢要國庫補貼也不敢講虧10年多啊你就已經虧到一個資本額了啊那個公司也厲害銀行敢借錢給你可見你經營得不錯人家敢借錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7901.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7905.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
當然是防止物價的波動但是啊,保證啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7907.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7936.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
他真的很老實啊很忠厚、很實在、很努力、很經營的人你這樣不照顧,你自己照顧台電因為他有將近3000億的,你也給他貶一下好不好是,謝謝委員齁那台電、中油都是我們經濟部最重要的兩家國營事業我們當然都要去照顧沒有照顧,看起來你愛台電不愛中油沒有沒有沒有這個都一定要照顧台電有Power,中油是只有加油啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7937.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7966.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
對不對沒有中油好最後問你一個問題你們報章雜誌在講你希望中油的時候賣給台電我不曉得預防你要減少一元一塊錢等於中油購買你台電購買中油價格大概你每年營業的收入會省吃到 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7968.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7973.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
中油我們就是知道中油也是有吸收非常多的成本所以中油賣給台電的價格已經比他的這個成本價要高一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7996.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7997.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我是入賤不平啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7997.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8020.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
但是因為這個是看國際的這個天然氣的有沒有降低我每次聽你說國際的天然氣啦有說要是命啊但是不能求不中油這樣啦 不會不會 因為靠照台電啦好不好 謝謝委員支持 是不是我支持 你要支持才重要 我只是講的有點不一定聽啊我們支持中油 中油台電都非常重要 都一樣重要 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8024.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8035.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
謝謝陳昌明委員接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員發言待會兒邱志偉委員發言結束之後我們休息5分鐘好謝謝趙偉請王部長跟李董事長來請部長跟李董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8039.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8066.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
部長臺電要更有Power中油也一定要加油這兩個都是國家重要的產業經濟部也會全力的支持確實他們現在所經營上遇到很多困境跟國際燃料價格有很大的影響所以我想政府也一定要全力支持因為這都是國家重要的一個產業那我先來問一下其實臺電的部分這個大概在月底前會做出一個結論就是說到底長不長條長多少會做出一個結論是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8070.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8089.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
會 是那現在在努力在爭取的因為看部長也提到其實漲多少其實跟包括它的整個跟行政院的這個補貼也會有相關嗎如果行政院補貼多一點當然我們漲的就可以稍微多甚至可以稍微控制的多一點減少對物價的一個影響是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8090.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8118.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
會互相有影響對那我問一下其實去年我們的這個稅收超過預算數3860億這個我認為如果拿不要說拿1500億我認為拿2000億出來的話來支持國家的中小產業讓整個台電的因為燃料的部分所造成虧損讓台電可以永續的發展同時間也讓物價減少它的影響波動我認為這個其實是值得有必要的部長認同這樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8119.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8143.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
謝謝委員支持,那我們就是確實優先來爭取撥補的部分因為我認為主計總署這個主委長他的擔憂啦當然那個但是這個都是去年就有一些超過預算數的增加了嘛那你不用去為為明年的今年預算本來就照今年來編列嘛明年所以我認為有這樣那過去來我們都還有因為這樣而可以發現金甚至可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8144.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8148.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我認為在控制物價跟整個維持台電的穩健經營上我認為行政院做這樣的一個支持其實是合理的部長會全力來爭取嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8160.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8179.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
是,謝謝委員支持,那我們確實目前都在跟行政院密集溝通當中我希望不只1500億甚至2000億,我都希望如果有機會來爭取到這樣來支持這個不是只有經濟部的事,這是全台灣的事啦,也是行政院的大事情那我也希望部長池立跟院長來大力來爭取啦,好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8179.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8179.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
是 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8180.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8196.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
另外當然就是所以這個會因為剛剛提到行政的撥補一定要先出來補助出來才有後面的電價那一塊那這個一個禮拜內會做出決定嗎確實我們有時間的壓力那我們也有跟院裡面反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8196.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8219.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
因為審議委員會要開嘛,審議委員會要開的時候你要看行政到底有撥補多少進來會影響到如果缺口還是那麼大那當然電價調的比例就會高一點那如果進來的撥補的多一點的話缺口小一點當然就會調少所以請部長好不好努力爭取是不是跟院長能這個一個禮拜內把這事情能夠做一個定案 是好不好那也讓人發現這已經討論一段時間了我覺得不要讓台灣不斷的持續在這種電價要漲不漲這樣的情緒當中我認為這個其實並不健康了 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8227.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8233.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
另外我也想請教一下,所以這個應該沒有所謂的經濟部跟主計總處不同調的問題吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8233.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8245.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
沒有沒有,不是,我們都在密切溝通我也希望加強跟整個行政院的溝通,國家是一體的,政府是一體的當然中油也很辛苦,我認為中油連續5年是虧損,今年有沒有機會轉虧為盈? |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8250.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8273.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
跟委員報告今年有機會還是要看國際油氣價格的變化所以有機會轉會議部長其實中油當然也需要照顧但是相較於台電這個壓力更大所以我現在我們現在是先把所有的主力支持在台電那在中油甚至水的部分我們必須要維持它的穩定性主要目的就是減少整個物價上的一些波動的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8275.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8278.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8297.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8322.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
出口跌破了三成也就是說其實我們在對美國日本或其他的都持續在增加那我們看到那個年增率的部分更是明顯在對於美國甚至於東南亞這個國家的部分其實很快速增加就是國家的整個整體策略方向走向全世界這個方向上看來是大力在推動那也減少對中國的依賴因為中國畢竟還是有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8323.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8324.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
在2020之前的時候經濟部門研判中國大陸這邊還會有進一步的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8343.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8358.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們中國大陸他後續會怎麼做我們其實都要做準備那他要不要這個不是我們能夠掌握但是呢我們對產業的這些的扶植的我們都有加緊在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8359.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8379.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
從最近來看不斷的對520這個賴總統當選的這個施壓是不斷在增加的那有可能在經濟上一樣持續來施壓所以包括像農漁機械、汽車的零配件包括紡織等等經濟部有做好的相關的萬全的準備了嗎?如果萬一他們有啟動任何的動作的話是是是所以這個都有做的準備了 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8379.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8385.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以比如說包括我們其實跟相關的產業有做很多的交流跟座談那比如說我們現在其實今年就啟動比如說包括把石化紡織機械一起到新興國家去這個展去拓銷市場那這個要到哪裡拓銷怎麼拓銷我們都充分跟業界做這個溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8402.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8421.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
特別是這幾個的部分要再加強它的力道,減少那個,當然我們如果有更多的準備的時候,其實這個想對就比較不會被成為是這個作為他們的手段之一另外520之前的時候,因為經濟大概也是中國大陸對台灣的一個手段之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8423.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8425.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
有可能經濟部的判斷有可能全面清零嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8425.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8426.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
有可能全面的中止嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8426.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8447.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
ECFA的部分我們不預測但是我們一定是要做最好的準備所以要做各種的準備啦 做各種準備但不做預測但是我希望也要做各種的一個準備畢竟一個威權的體制專制體制它的決定性的因素不像民主國家體制是比較多元而理性可預判的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8447.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8470.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以我希望這一塊經濟部還是要持續準備我不期望它發生但是如果萬一它發生的時候我們能夠協助我們業者度過這些狀況沒有錯 是那再來我最後一個想請教一下這個中油的部分中油其實在過去以來對於幼兒園的這個建設這個我很支持讓員工、地線員工那在高雄、苗栗跟嘉義都有設置的一些那個那我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8471.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8477.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
高雄的部分小港有2333個員工,前陣有456個員工,林園有1323個員工,總數有4112個員工就近來設置我是建議董事長這邊能夠慎重思考男子那也設了這個我當然支持但是我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8490.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8518.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
在第一線的部分小港前陣零元更是需要了那我知道你們在前陣在小港有一塊背景的宿舍我建議其實背景宿舍讓員工第一線能夠做好的一些工作服務特別現在往週季二期在發展的時候中油在這邊的量會越來越吃重我希望中油甚至要評估在上面有一些宿舍以外在一樓的部分能有些幼兒園的設施讓員工未來在招募甚至他們的照顧家庭的時候更無後顧之憂董事長要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8519.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8545.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
跟委員報告目前當然我們除了高雄、嘉義、苗栗、台北總公司其實也設了這個都是為了讓我們的同仁能夠安心上班那至於委員提出的問題第一線更應該做了好不好第一線更多的員工在演繹好不好因為這一塊在小港地區大林場現在有2000多位員工嘛林園場大概有1400、1500位員工最多的都在這個地方啦我希望一個禮拜內把你們評估結果給我知道好不好我們來演繹一下好 謝謝部長 謝謝總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8548.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8577.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 謝謝賴瑞榮委員這個中央董事長我提醒您一下齁這個同樣的問題齁您每一次的回答都不一樣剛剛本席問你說中油會不會轉虧為盈你跟我說會打平賴瑞榮問你你跟他說會轉虧為盈剛剛張祺凱問你如果打仗的時候你的儲槽的儲存量是多少你不回答所以我停你下面換鄭振前委員上來問同樣一個問題你就把日期都講出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8578.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8579.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8617.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8621.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
謝謝主席那是不是有請我們中油董事長來請李董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8629.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8638.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
董事長!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好! |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8658.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8676.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
因為我們當然要負擔,因為這個烏鴉戰爭,天然氣的價錢有這麼高,你現在要再負擔,天然氣照理說包括螺絲、包括我們要用的很多東西、我們的家的汽油,事實上都是在動漲狀態,所以這個動漲狀態大概中油吸收了多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8681.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8710.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
跟委員報告光天然氣的部分從110年到113年2月其實我們吸收超過4千億光天然氣的部分天然氣吸收4千億?阿政策勒,阿政策面在動場的這部分就是配合政策動場的我們在電業方面吸收2300億在民生工業吸收了1700億那其他我們在汽柴油、LPG也都有吸收 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8710.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8719.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以是在這幾年,所以你們才會在109年度、110年度跟111年度各自虧損了從700億、392億到1861億大概就是在13年度是最嚴重的,尤其是在110年度那現在大概你們預判國際的天然氣的價格未來你們認為會怎麼走呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8738.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8763.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
國際天然氣價格當然是在中產業的部分是跟布蘭特鹽油掛鉤那布蘭特鹽油今天是84塊所以這份布蘭特鹽油只要是占在80塊以上的話那整個中產業的價格大概就會每百萬立萬公尺會超過10塊以上那當然這裡還有一個轉換係數變成國內每度多少台幣那現貨的部分事實上是有走跌了也回軟下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8763.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8780.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
大概回到二五戰爭之前的那個樣的一個水平。那我們在觀察就是下半年度是不是他的走勢會怎麼樣才會影響到我們相關的... 那麼你們要買你就沒辦法說要買嘛,你們都要預判未來的狀況。 是是,所以我們應該有7%的合約。 現在我們看到就是說,我們在五二戰爭的時候,我們大概也簽了一些約,當時的價格是高的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8787.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8814.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以現在當然也是得去承擔這一些契約所累積下來的一個比較高的成本公文報告事實上我們前中產業是保量不保價它的價是跟著國際布蘭特研究的價格在變化保量不保價所以變化阿主委我們現在可以買的比較便宜就對了照你講的意思對它產業是這樣子但是現貨變化就比較大現貨可能會暴漲暴跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8815.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8818.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那我們大概有75%是中場業、25%是現貨。 那我們大概有75%是中場業、25%是現貨。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8833.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8859.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們事實上這邊預算就會估一個天然氣現貨的價格是多少然後原油布蘭特FOP是多少我們是在這個假設基礎下去抓他的這個預算所以我也是回到我最原始我知道你們身份是很重要的因素我們面對成本這個價格管的時候然後又要吸收包括台電的一些政策因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8860.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8863.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8887.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8901.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我看到新聞說可能會編列1500億來做這個對台電的一個補助啦齁阿中油齁 您有一個好處捏 我覺得您比台電有一點好這是台電齁 怎麼會莫名其妙跑出那麼多名股的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8902.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8904.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
您沒有嘛,您100%對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8904.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8919.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
是的。所以您相對於這個陷台前閉起來,您這個比較單純,您的定義跟政府可以完全方向是一致的,只要做回走啦。您有審查給我們部長請出說,是不是這個超增的部分中油也要補一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8922.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8928.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
跟委員報告事實上我們有爭取我們113年其實有爭取希望有200億的這樣子一個增資但是最後到大院裡面並沒有被核准那我們持續到大院所以是玩家?部裡面其實也OK |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8941.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8957.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
最後沒有被核准所以我說你這次也要去爭取我們其實也要去爭取因為我目前我感覺啦如果我們以去年中央政府可以多出了2900億這根不管是叫超徵預算或是政府多出來的一個稅收 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8959.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8976.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這起來事實上就是趕快把台電跟中油的問題概括到好 台電不好解決因為他有民股 你們中油沒有這樣的壓力而且你們勢必未來中油不可能在 台電他們在面對包括說現在電價也好 包括說台電他要繼續要負擔這麼高的身份 國際煤炭的價格要這麼高的時候 你們也要再幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8984.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9013.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以我是覺得說部長這個你不用上來我是講給你聽啦與其這樣我們要去補助台電,台電他又有又有那些民股會有那邊雜音我們就補助中油啊中油繼續來幫助台電定律是轉一圈可是這個轉一圈相對於政府的預算而言他執行起來是更加的更加的不會有一些奇奇怪怪的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9017.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9043.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
謝謝委員我是跟部長有這樣的一個建議啦事實上這個是一個思考方向因為中油跟台電兩個雖然是不同公司可是他們扮演在評議台灣整體物價不要讓它上漲的時候你們的概念是一樣的所以我也希望你們要好好做包括說你們現在中油為了因應未來的減碳未來可以創造中油的ESG你們現在有上幾個研究方法到了我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9044.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9072.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
環境部也好到這個這個探全交易所我們送了幾個研究方法嗎?事實上這個那個整個探交易我們目前是在評估之中還在評估表示你們動作慢我跟你講這個東西未來這個探全就是一個可以讓你們的企業可以增值的所以你們得要加速你們的一些研究嘛你們要怎麼讓整個中油的企業讓你們可以更加的這個節能省碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9074.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9089.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這中油是你們要扮演火車頭的角色,要做給外界的企業看嘛。 是是。 對不對,你們現在投入了這樣的一個成本都不會隨便投入,投入下去還可以創造公司的ESG,這為什麼不怕扁? |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9089.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9104.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
是是,我們一直一直在努力這方面好,我是覺得這一塊真的要努力啦,我剛才都提醒你們說,事實上政府要實在帶領這個步驟然後第二個就是說,我們這個問題比較小啦,不過我也是站在我一定要講一下,我們在那個議組,你們這個加油站,你們修理的進度有比較慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9111.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9112.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
請勿模仿 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9128.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9151.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
都會騎好幾公里,所以這個加油站進度幫我們稍微催一下,不要再延遲,這樣好不好?謝謝教員,不過我們希望努力在8月能夠復用。對啦,要快一點,盡量加快啦,所以我們地方老人家你要讓他站在那裡去加油,安全性我們也是很擔心,好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝參議與委員,接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9165.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9166.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我用詞不夠精準,我對趙偉真的是有點抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9188.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9217.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
到底是哪一個?會持續虧損還是會打平還是會轉虧為盈?因為我們會計給我抓的根據估計的油氣價格去抓的話大概在打平附近但是我們會努力會努力去創造一些盈利但是這個我抱歉我剛回答不夠精準這個財務應該是很精確的不是很抽象因為油氣價格變化很大好啦就是繼續努力啦是是謝謝委員那個液化天然氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9219.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9247.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們所有接收站都是在西岸對不對是包括一階就在我選區二階在台中三階在桃園如果兩岸發生衝突台灣海峽會不會被封鎖有可能會被封鎖對不對所以我們所有接收站就是在西岸那萬一封鎖的時候這些這個油氣船沒辦法進來沒辦法靠港 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9249.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9249.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
第一個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9271.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9297.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
假設封鎖那這個是天底下的大事了全球的大事這是第一個那第二個齁動案如果可以設他早就會去設了那他動案有很多的地址問題還有使用需求的問題那因為天然氣都是需要管線來拉所以在動案設有其實有很多客觀主觀的問題你要想到最壞的狀況是這個其他國家影響絕對不會比台灣大 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9298.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9324.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
如果直接發生衝突的話,那個衝突區域最有可能就是在台灣海峽嗎?沒有,如果假設單純是封鎖...或是它進行封鎖的時候,你那個船怎麼進來?這個就影響了,不僅是台灣影響亞洲,也影響全世界的貿易。其他的國家它可以從太平洋,可以從東岸走啊。那補給船可以從東岸走啊。對不對?所以我們所有集團都在西岸特別注意,是不是有替代的方案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9326.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9333.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
另外,你要投40億去海勝風場,中油40億,台電出多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9333.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9338.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
台電大概是20億左右。 總共60億。 是。 這個風場建設希望達到國產化, 台電、中油、海勝風場導入有辦法做到國產化嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9352.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9379.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這個委員很關心齁那這個問題我們會盡量來討論那最近我們也會跟相關的開發商還有相關的供應鏈齁再做交換一次要讓你們兄弟公司中鋼啊嗷嗷待哺這個新達海基為了追求國產化那國產化學習期限高當然會造成成本會比較高如果你那兄弟公司都不相挺 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9381.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9382.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
請何以堪? |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9393.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9418.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
跟委員報告這一塊事實上我們站在中油投資的立場所以我們其實也在要求要依照相關的規定國廠化的比例60%這個一定要符合規定 我是建議啦一樣是國營事業要小廳啦謝謝伯陵你應該做一個這個協調者應該做一個整合者怎麼樣把國營事業力量結合在一起好 謝謝委員這個我們後續會來處理另外這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9423.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9445.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
全球這種燃油車慢慢是希望這個能夠淘汰對不對競售燃油車那這個未來這個替代性能源或者是這個乾淨能源中油有沒有逐漸往這個方向去轉型做了哪些準備不要說氫能氫能的部分未來可能會有很多的加氫戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9447.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9475.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這部分這個中油有沒有相關的準備跟委員報告事實上嘉青站剛剛也回應過我們希望我們這個得標的廠商令德能夠在6月份能夠進來然後我們希望在第三季再完成相關的別的工作場所省的等等還有包括目前這個建造取得等等這些我們希望努力在第三季 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9476.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9502.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
能夠第一座可移動式的嘉青市販站這是一個趨勢而且是不可逆的所以未來大概二三十年之內可能所有的燃油的車輛都會被淘汰我們也有設定這個目標長期的目標所以按照你們這個中油轉型策略有一個研究有不同的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9506.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9507.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對於這三種可能的這個模式有沒有政策的相關的這個的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9536.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9539.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
在這個相關車輛的我們確實跟交通部在跨部會在討論那這個也確實有參考國際性對那個相關的這個車輛的部分的這個方向那中油的部分我們大概幾個方向然後一個就是減少這個這個煉製然後增加石化的供應鏈那第二個呢對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9561.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9567.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
中油在電池的部分他們在研發那個軟碳那這個做的也還不錯那我們也會持續請中油再多做研發的部分那輕能車我們確實請中油來跟國際的廠商來合作那目前他們跟日商有在做一個前期的一個評估那等等的這個部分我們確實中油部分未來面臨整個大的能源轉型上他要做的事情確實非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9591.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9615.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我剛剛說這三種都是未來轉型的策略選擇啦是中油這三種策略你們比較偏好作為轉型的主要策略以中油的立場當然是我們理貨能夠往輕能發展那這樣子我的加油站可以順利轉成加薪站對中油的業務對中油的商業模式應該相對比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9616.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9623.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這是站在中油的立場所以目前轉型策略還是往輕能車如果成為主流你們廣設這個加薪站 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9625.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9648.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這是你們未來轉型的策略。那你這個氫能的部分到底做了哪些的準備?氫能當然除了在加氫站之外,事實上我們在產氫包括是藍氫或是未來的綠氫當然包括在整個輸送的過程中包括氫的劑量還有包括它一些相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9648.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9651.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
再提供給委員在30秒鐘再請教一個問題你們在這個油氣探勘跟開發部分國外的目標國家有幾個? |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9672.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9688.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我們這幾年又投入6個新的礦區包括索馬利蘭包括墨西哥包括澳洲有兩個包括巴拉圭還有包括我們在印尼East Surin這邊有住宿的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9692.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9719.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這些新礦區是自有的還是合作的?都是合作的模式那這些6個新的礦區到底已經開始產油了嗎?沒有,現在其實很多是剛開始通過之後我們再做一些攤攤這6個礦區你一年要投入多少成本?這一部分恐怕我們再整理相關的資料再跟委員來做報告時間到了,我也不能再用太多時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9721.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9733.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
請董事長再準備一些資料給邱志偉委員黃國昌委員不好意思我剛有宣告說要休息5分鐘我們現在休息5分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10099.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10100.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10127.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10137.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
市委主席,有請部長以及中油董事長來,請部長跟李董,謝謝是,好,位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10139.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10162.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
委員好 延續昨天質詢的話題 台原綠能去年大虧了2.7億 我對於綠能政策我支持 但我反對用國家的資源去養派系權貴 去讓特定的系統在上下起手 這個是我昨天在質詢部長的時候 我所要表明的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10163.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10188.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
但我昨天一直在問這件事情的時候部長看到這張圖然後一直說什麼一直說來來來我把去昨天啊質詢的話講說部長你說我真的要講吳國欽跟可威完全沒關是另一個可威這個對他太不公平這完全錯誤委員你可能要先回去澄清一下我昨天在質詢的時候從頭到尾都還沒有進入吳國欽 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10190.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10208.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
部長你兩次跟我說我搞錯,要我回去澄清,我回去反省了很久啊,請問部長你要我澄清什麼?跟委員致歉齁,那這個之前有在講可憐慰的那個部分,那因為有人確實把一些... 有人是我嗎?沒有我沒有講我... 我批評第一章是這樣寫嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10210.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10212.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
你要不要道歉有人講錯算到我頭上喔我昨天PVP是不是長成這個樣子我昨天圖是不是長這樣上面哪一個字寫錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10237.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10261.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
欸這邊相關的人事的部分等一下我們可以說明齁這個不是委員講的昨天口頭講的這些問題你昨天開的這個圖不是要我回去搞清楚要我澄清說對他不公平我要跟委員講的是吳國欽去當台研綠能的這個部分其實是我們拜託他去的欸沒有關係齁你是不是拜託他去那是下一個層次的問題齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10264.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10286.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我在做諮詢資料的時候我自我要求很嚴格我所有的東西都有出處都有鎖本所以主席部長在背景台上這樣指控我說這完全錯誤我要回去澄清一下我剛才已經跟委員致歉了那委員會來要問這些委員可以事先給我們我們可以來做回應我們繼續往下問吳國慶他本來的職務是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10294.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10316.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
他是在國營會的這邊當組長所以他對於綠能有什麼樣的專業他非常懂他非常懂是不是他督導我們中油台電特別是台電的部分所以針對有關於台年綠能的部分部長你有信心他下去當總經理以後可以好好整頓嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10317.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10341.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
可以好好整頓嗎?我們就是拜託他幫我們...今天部長表現了這樣子的誠意我就跟部長講我從台言綠能從當地我所收到他們檢舉的內容我再說一次我的立場很簡單我不允許國家的資源讓特定的派系權貴上下其手這是我的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10343.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10360.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
具體的看我為什麼說齁臺原力能成為派系上下的起手當初引進這四大名股我知道經濟部反對但臺原力能的董事長啊膽子很大經濟部反對他也不管就引進了四大名股嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10361.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10390.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
昨天部長有講到臺元利能虧損很重要的一個原因就是在嘉義異族的案場嘛對吧?嘉義異族的案場提列了很多呆帳有很多現在要也要不到他們現在在種採光結果引進了民股蔡清旭蔡清旭就是跟臺南在那邊搞爐渣光店的同一個人他們都是做下包商 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10391.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10416.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
全都拿走然後結果是什麼?他們在賺錢台研綠能是什麼?在虧錢一模一樣土地開發的部分拿著台研綠能的招牌在外面收地這個鴻輝國際結果最後發現原來陳啟玉他兒子在那邊任職土地開發整合費全部都賺到鴻輝的口袋裡面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10417.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10442.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他們在賺錢國家在虧錢有這種道理喔這個就是我看不下去的地方台演藝人之前的這個部分我們也整理了那再過來就是需要檢調來澄清所以這個部分我們也送給檢調行事犯罪第二個吳國欽的部分部長你信任他拜託他去當總經理我希望他展現魄力大刀拓斧的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10443.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10448.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
現在有上千位的民眾正在入港張斌的服務中心抗議他們抗議什麼?經濟部要在那邊設經濟的焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10472.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10501.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
但他們很憤怒的事情是什麼這件事情去年民進黨政府林佳龍啊是帶著什麼當地的立委去跟鄉親保證絕對沒有這樣的事絕對不會推動經濟部絕對不會允許在這邊要設焚化爐結果到今年跳票了我知道這件事情以後一位彰化環保聯盟的總幹事施悅英斯老師來找我陳其我聽了很震驚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10502.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10512.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
林佳龍做了這麼莊嚴的承諾怎麼會跳票部長你要不要說明一下是到底有要幹還是沒有要幹林佳龍的承諾算數還是不算數 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10513.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10531.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
金鼎是承租我們這個髒冰的相關的這個土地那要做這個事情那我們這個部分有相關的規範那合約也有他應該做的事情比如說他要得到彰化縣的許可那這些程序因為對我們來說我們有這個相關合約的期限那期限之前他要去履行這些東西如果到時候沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10542.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10559.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
期限到什麼時候?相關的期限我要問同仁因為我只講最後一句話當地的居民很憤怒現在上千人已經把那個地方擠爆了還有很多人進不去我剛剛看到現場抗議的畫面大家只問一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10560.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10583.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
政府講話算不算話?林佳龍的承諾算不算數?我希望部長今天在那邊經濟部的同仁要給大家一個清楚的說明這樣可以嗎?我們都有相關的合約期程我們會來處理西部的內容是不是再請經濟部提供給黃國昌委員?是謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10593.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10594.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
政府說的話算不算話 要算話吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10613.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10636.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
對我們經濟部我們要按照相關的合約來處理如果說有這樣的承諾就不應該再發聲讓民眾要去抗爭我想這是最基本的政府的公信力第二個部分我也請中油請李董部長我想在台北大家都知道在台北的內湖區有大台北瓦斯的六顆瓦斯槽 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10637.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10659.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個是大台北瓦斯在臺北市的供氣的儲氣槽那這6顆瓦斯槽從我20幾年前當議員其實當地的民眾還有市政府都希望能夠及早的遷移那他們一直都說這個是因為中油的關係中油的供氣不足、中油的原因所以在106年當時臺北市產發局就已經做了兩個決定第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10666.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10685.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
幫大台北瓦斯去找了其他遷移的場址找了14個地方但是這公司他說要花很多錢他不要另外一個方案就是台灣經濟研究院當時評估過如果要移除的話只要確認中油的二期輸氣工程也就是關堂三接完工之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10686.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10714.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
能夠增加臺北市的民生工氣未來就可以布建穩定的輸配電管網系統也就是導入第二氣源就可以拆除這六座除氣槽董事長是嗎?根文報告我們在配管的部分已經完成了那現在要不要拆其實是業者所以他已經做到了穩定的工氣以及不至於還需要這六座除氣槽繼續存在在臺北市區了對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10714.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10744.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們的管線是可以來處理那還是尊重業者接下來接下來的問題就是不是尊重業者我們是政府這個除氣槽很有趣他是大台北瓦斯公司他提供的是台北市其他行政區他的位置設在內湖但是內湖人用的是新湖瓦斯這是一個很離譜的事情第二個他旁邊就是密集的住宅區當年是把綠地變成了公共事業用地現在其實只是還地於民所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10745.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10761.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
中油的部分我們現在就是他要跟你重談合約也就是說你跟他現在的合約現在是不是正在協議中你還要問你跟他的公企合約是不是應該再把我們這個部分加進來在111年的時候當時秋生委員會開過協調會 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10766.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10777.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
你們應該要跟他在合約裡面從你而且供氣壓力穩定之後就要停用這個在你們的合約一定範圍之內董事長你有納進去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10778.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10798.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
是,那個合約我們當時就協調的結果就是先延到今年年底那在談新的合約的時候會一併處理好,所以部長我希望經濟部、能源署還有中油這種所謂的零幣設施而且它已經存在現在已經沒有公用的東西我們希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10800.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10821.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
由你們來協助大台北瓦斯公司包括它的管網、供氣的穩定還有備援能源的需求還有瓦斯槽的拆除都能夠一併來協助由中油來主導能夠讓這個六顆瓦斯槽早日從內湖去拆除部長可以請你們來跟能源署一起來協助嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10822.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10841.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
剛才委員講得很好他涉及的因素委員都講了吼那有一些這個我們中央或者中油可以來協助的可以協助那當然他還要有大台北瓦斯本身的這個部分只要中油供氣穩定我相信他就沒有正當理由再繼續留這個這個就可以我們可以大力的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10842.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10855.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這件事情很重要另外我想問一下中油的部分你們接下去在印度的投資還會繼續或擴大或者是我們可以增加更多的新南向的擴張我們中油而不會我們希望能夠你們能夠多賺點錢少點虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10857.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10882.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
跟委員報告印度的辦公室我們已經採測了因為我們去那邊幾年那一直跟投資印度這個單位也不是印度人都談不攏所以有沒有其他擴充或者是在營業範圍之內可以告訴國人的目前印度方面是沒有好的部長麻煩你我講這個瓦斯槽希望在台北市能夠崛起謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10889.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10889.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
王宏威徐欣盈主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10914.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10929.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
部長好,本席因為昨天這不小心名字跳過沒有質詢到所以我今天還是想跟您利用這4分鐘討論一下我們調漲電價的問題我相信部長很清楚就是電價的調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10932.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10953.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個不只是調漲電價,它是整個社會結構中很重要的一環。也就是電價漲起來會讓我們的物價一波一波的漲,就像海浪一樣一波一波的。我們如果沒有做好配套,它會變成驚濤駭浪。那我們整個的物價通膨,我覺得這個我們的民眾會受不了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10954.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10979.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我看到你們的報告裡面也有特別寫到你們在2022年到2023年有一些配套但是那些配套主要第一個它的基期比較低你說它的銀額創歷史新高那其實是因為過去我們這個因為疫情的關係所以這個比較上它是比較低它比較低它本來銀額就低那第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10980.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11007.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
如果這個配套這兩年覺得已經給民眾有緩衝了可是這一次漲電價如果沒有做好配套那你是讓民眾連本帶利一次又要還給你所以首先本席第一個問題想請教您有提到說希望行政院可以補助1500億那現在不知道您這個目前有沒有把握還是現在的情況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11009.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11025.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
因為你們這個試算的這個結果還沒有確定是還沒確定那您可以積極的為我們民眾爭取嗎那第二個本席也想特別講的就是我們這個配套裡面除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11027.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11048.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們讓他緩之外我們希望漲電價他的配套包含能夠有薪資調漲因為對於年輕人還有很多弱勢你電價一漲萬物起漲那他們是受不了他們本來生活就比較辛苦了所以如果可以薪資先漲我們再來調電價這樣會不會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11052.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11054.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這個部分您跟行政院有沒有這個方向的一個規劃我想院裡面會通盤去檢討那對台電來講事實上跟其他國家比起來台電就是一直在為了物價部分在緩漲甚至這個造成現在這麼大的一個虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11071.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11092.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這個跟其他國家比起來,其他國家確實都在衝突的反應本席主要是說因為您是經濟部長然後漲電價也是您所屬的單位這邊在漲所以這整個的配套我們希望部長跟行政院這裡是不是可以在薪資調漲的部分可以走在前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11093.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11107.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
相關的這個部分那去年才這個最低工資的這個審議才有在有增加嗎那這個部分是院裡面其實也都在提升國內的這個薪資水準是 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11108.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11123.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那針對這一波漲電價本席指的是這一波漲電價我們針對這個漲電價我們要做好配套他絕對不是只有電價的問題本席也在這邊表達就是我們認同我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11123.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11124.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
新知的配套我們請部長這裡跟行政院能夠還是能夠積極來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11154.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11157.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
羅致強 羅致強 羅致強委員不在 紅夢凱 紅夢凱 紅夢凱委員不在 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在 牛許廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11182.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11188.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好 謝謝主席 這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請 謝謝來請部長跟李董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11194.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11220.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期桃園第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問了請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11221.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11235.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
根文報告事實上這個過去討厭市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11236.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11259.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個簽譽的一個全體條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11262.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11275.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的 大家都會反對對不對對當地都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11276.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11294.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11298.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11313.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11315.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11342.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這事要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11344.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11360.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11362.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11388.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以本期要求就是老舊的鍋爐如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下修的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11389.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11407.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能啊或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11407.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11436.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
它相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某一些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11438.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11460.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
最後一個是我們跟台灣市政府台灣市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟台灣市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11461.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11476.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11480.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11482.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
接下來我們請顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒穩不在、羅明才、羅明才、羅明才穩不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11504.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11526.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
臨德福臨德福臨德福委員不在那我們另外準備4分鐘給謝伊鳳委員謝謝主席因為我時間有限我就同時請王部長跟我們中油董事長來請王部長跟李董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11530.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11557.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
王部長,我今天也是沒有辦法準時來報導就是因為經鼎的案子那你是不是說明一下就是到底是因為林佳龍秘書長的承諾還是今天如果在地的民眾表達不同意的意見那的確有可能經鼎公司就沒有辦法如實的拿到整個許可,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11558.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11586.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
對經濟部來講因為我們跟經鼎有相關的合約那合約有期程那非常重要是我們確實在合約裡面有要求經鼎一定要拿到地方政府的執照那當然地方的溝通一定要做因為這是環評應該走的程序那所以這一些的前提如果都沒有辦法這個完成的話那會影響這個合約的部分那所以這個合約的期限是不是在3月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11586.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11605.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我們的合約的期限沒有你來說明啦你不要跟委員報告今天在經營公司他所辦理的相關的說明會是來自於依照環評法的規定那他必須要去做的一個作業程序以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11606.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11623.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那所以合約期限呢?我再講合約期限相關的期程如果沒有沒有辦法順利等等的那因為我們這個相關的合約我們會看他有沒有履行合約的這些階段性必要的條件等等的那後續我們再來處理所以今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11627.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11654.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
在場的民眾已經表達了抗議以及不支持的情況所以如果沒有在場民眾其實林佳榮秘書長當初的承諾也沒有辦法解套啊是不是我想這個相關的當地的居民的這個意見是重要的啦那當然更重要是他有沒有辦法拿到縣政府的相關執照這個都是相關合約能不能往下走的前提好 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11655.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11668.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那我再問一下因為昨天我在問主計長朱哲銘的時候他提到了今年的經濟成長如果是3.4%他們預估的他們預估的指裡面中油的油價 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11670.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11675.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
中油對於今年油價評估,今年油價的確是市場上面非常不確定的因素,你對油價評估是如何的? |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11686.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11704.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
跟委員報告事實上我們目前預算書是抓80.5塊預算書113年預算書那事實上我們目前那你會賠多休業來講的話大概是80.6其實很接近那整個我們也在掌握整個國際大公司對下半年油價的一個走勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11705.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11706.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那下半年油價呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11706.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11733.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
對,那我們其實認為它低大概也有支撐就是去年得到70出頭這裡那高大概也不會高到95就是會在這個區間去做盤整你說70對,就過去大概70到95之間因為它的波動其實要看很多因素那機率大?往上的機率大還是往下的機率大?我們看起來應該是食品在這個地方八十幾塊的可能性比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11734.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11749.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以不會影響到經濟成長?如果是80幾塊就不會影響到經濟成長那對於電力的需求那就相對的大了是不是那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11752.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11775.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我們中油你如果預估的油價是往高的時候那對於中油的虧損你預計是多少?你們有雙環產的那個政策嗎?那對於如果油價區間在八十或者是九十八十的時候你預估你們的虧損是多少?九十的時候你們預估虧損是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11775.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11777.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
今年最大的不確定因素的確是在石油啊,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11798.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11804.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
還是油氣因為氣會跟著油來變動因為國企的天然氣價格JKM我只有4分鐘你回歸到主題你應該有試算過嘛就講吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11811.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11811.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
中油公司吸收的政策人物會更多? |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11811.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11812.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11837.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11853.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我這塊如果我們試算以後有那個你都沒有講你們都已經你都已經有抓出區間了你就應該試算了嘛是不是不願意講不是不是因為我們各種各種情境要必須要有一些假設前提就是說我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11854.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11857.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這裡頭除了油價、不然就是FOP還要再看JKM它的現貨價格 因為它的那個浮動所以會影響他們怎麼試算 那他們的預算是以說如果油價是80塊的話大概是今年度希望可以打平這樣的一個情境 那90塊呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11877.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11886.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
90塊鐵定會虧損的虧損多少他不講虧損多少就會跟油價跟氣價的這個相關的情形有一些變有一些互相變動的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11889.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11917.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
如果這樣子說啦,過去我在煉油廠的經驗就是說如果煉油每上漲一塊錢每斤對我的整個成本會增加大概四億多啦,如果這樣子的話上漲到九十塊大概會增加四十幾億的成本那如果這些成本沒辦法在7D3V的這個售價來做反應的話那這部分就是我要新說的我看你好像都沒有算了,下次要來報告之前你應該要算好喔,不然不問你就問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11925.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11946.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我們登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢與詢答結束另外有楊瓊英委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會各位同仁針對中油的預算案如果有修正動議或者是相關的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11947.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11967.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
請於3月20日中午12點以前送經濟委員會辦公室會証以利後續的作業預時不再收案請3月20日禮拜三中午12點以前送經濟委員會辦公室會証好本日議程所列討論事項詢答完畢令定期繼續進行審查現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11975.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11981.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
還有兩個委員會要主席,我們要趕他一下我們這邊結束了,但他目前還在別個委員會裡我先跟上1950元1950元1950元 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12005.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12005.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
第12屆第13會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12024.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12024.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
第12屆第1會議第12屆 |