| IVOD_ID |
15713 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15713 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-11T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-11T11:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:22:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2da7f870fb2fb2a5c39b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4b4de26c548ded4745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 11:52:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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報告委員會：初期委員6人以足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2112.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2117.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2143.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2165.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
二、邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況．並備質詢。．國防部部長邱國正報告委員盧美玲等19人質詢．均有國防部部長邱國正．副部長博鴻輝．軍備局副局長黃清培．軍運局局長蔡建松．戰略規劃實施長李士強．及憲兵指揮部參謀長呂正芳等即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2166.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2188.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡打結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定三委員黃珊珊及陳培宇等二人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2191.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2200.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處?如果沒有我們議事錄確定請議事人員選讀報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2205.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2219.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
報告事項二．邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告．因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選．就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析．併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2232.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2248.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好,我們現在介紹在場委員首先有我們徐巧欣委員還有沈博洋委員以及在場的列席官員國家安全局局長蔡明彥蔡局長副部長博鴻輝博副部長戰略規劃司李士強司長整合評估司張士勤副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2264.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2268.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
情報參謀次長是嚴友賢次長作跡市參謀次長是陳文新次長陸軍司令部陳建毅參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部曹敬平參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2292.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2295.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
還有海巡署張忠榮副署長還有巡防組廖雲紅廖組長情報組孫士亮副組長特別行動支援中心蘇權副主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2324.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2338.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本日會議邀請國安局蔡局長報告．因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選．就國際以及兩岸局勢發展之研析．並備質詢現在請國安局蔡局長上臺報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2351.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2367.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席、主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、先生、大家好。非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行《因應中共兩會召開及美國年底大選．就國際及兩岸局勢發展》進行專題報告。以下僅就報告的內容重點跟各位委員先進報告如次。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2368.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2397.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第一大部分是有關於國際跟大陸的情勢一、美國大選牽動國際局勢瓜胡一兩黨主要的候選人參選人支持度相近那現在的總統拜登跟前總統川普在黨內初選都沒有遭逢強勁的對手那目前兩人已經大概取得了黨內代表票數接近門檻的一個程度所以後續假如沒有出現重大變化的話應該都可以各自獲得黨內的提名那另外拜登跟川普現在的全國民調的支持度呈現拉鋸的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2398.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2405.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
未來拜登的健康因素還有川普的官司問題等等都有可能會影響到美國選民後續的投票的意向 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2408.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2429.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
總統參選人對外政策立場不同拜登在外交政策上強調的是多邊主義那主張加強跟友盟的合作並且強力的來支持烏克蘭川普則支持單邊主義美國優先認為應該要優先關注國內的議題減少易駐海外的戰事而且北約的成員國應該要增加他們對於軍事分擔費用的一個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2430.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2454.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
瓜胡珊,兩黨都非常地重視中共的戰略挑戰。拜登跟川普都把中國視為是主要的挑戰,那這已經變成是美國兩黨的主要共識。當前拜登政府對中共採取的是去風險、不脫鉤以及小院高牆的科技管制等等的政策,但在此同時也進行了溝通對話、管控分歧,同時也爭取國際社會對於台海安全情勢的關注。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2455.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2470.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
川普政府．川普總統候選人的部分．他們則認為美國必須要維持嚇阻的一個戰略的能量．來因應中共的挑戰．同時也主張對於大陸來課徵高關稅．平衡美中貿易的逆差．尋求對中國大陸逐步的脫鉤 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2472.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2498.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第二中共的兩會皆是大陸政策的走向。瓜胡一全力的來福音習領導的權威今年中共的全國兩會特別把國務院定位為維護習領導權威貫徹黨中央決策的執行者角色那同時也強化了一黨領政的法理的基礎一般認為未來中共的政治可能會更加的封閉那也會先說到施政的一個彈性增添未來的政策路線的不可預測性。瓜胡二 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2499.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2525.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
擴增軍費持續強軍備戰中共在力求經濟成長保護的情況之下仍然編列國防預算1.6兆人民幣征服高達7.2%那未來將會持續的來發展所謂的新職作戰能力同時也來強化實戰的演訓消弭、貪腐、影響了共軍戰力等等的負面的情緒那也能夠來如期完成中共希望能夠在2027年達成建軍百年的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2526.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2549.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
關乎山打造中國現代化的模式中共今年的經濟失政主要的重點在於推進科技創新的發展並且透過發行一兆的特別國債來益助經濟成長的動能拉抬信心那另一方面中共也擴張國安執法權那在政策透明度可能下降的情況之下可能會增添外國企業在大陸相關的政治風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2550.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2572.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
關乎是強化反獨促統．續推兩岸的融合．今年兩會跟對台工作會議．大多強調一中反獨促統的一個基調．並且突出鞏固國際一中．以及反外力干涉等等的一個重要性．另外習近平最近也重申了和平統一的路線．凸顯兩岸的統一、融合的發展．還是中國大陸現階段對台工作主要的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2573.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2598.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第二大項是有關於對國際跟兩岸情勢的影響評估。一、美國的印太戰略著重整合性的嚇阻。美國對中共採取溝通、惡阻並進的一個策略﹐積極地來深化跟印太有盟的一個合作關係﹐以便來提升跟區域內國家在安全領域還有經貿領域的合作韌性﹐同時也來整合有盟的威懾能量﹐避免區域安全的現狀遭到了挑戰或是破壞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2599.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2617.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
美國有台制中的政策不變目前美國兩黨都把中共視為是主要的戰略競爭對手同時也支持深化台美的合作關係那應對中共對於印太地區的一個挑戰所以不論是哪一位當選美國總統未來的有台制中的政策應不至於出現大幅的變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2619.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2629.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
中共專善擴權迫害區域的核穩中共近年來不斷的運用軍事還有揮帶的手段在第一島鏈的周邊強勢的維權並且積極的對外來擴張戰訓的場域意圖來改變印太地區的安全現狀增添了我們區域裡面地緣戰略的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2638.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2663.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第四中共會持續的來強化對台壓拉兩手的作為目前中共除了鞏固國際一中的格局也持續的藉由軟硬兩手的策略來對台灣進行壓拉的一個操作一方面透過軍事的威懾、外交的打壓、經濟的脅迫以及增加各種的法律作為來炒作兩岸管轄權的爭議意圖來改變台海的現狀另一方面也試機來操作統戰分化 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2663.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2678.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
行訴對中共有利的一個兩岸的局勢第三部分結語那中共為了要加強掌握兩岸的局勢主導權會持續的來突出對台政策的立場的底線同時也會結合各種的政、經、軍、徽帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2679.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2681.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
並且持續對於本局的工作能夠給予大力的支持。謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2707.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2723.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘﹖非本會委員8分鐘10點30分發言登記截止﹖如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理﹖現在請沈博洋委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2735.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2739.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好 謝謝主席 那有請這個局長 謝謝請局長好 謝謝主席 社會委員早非常早 那這個 這個感謝這個主席安排這一個題目 這個題目其實非常的困難那這個 今天我最主要的 因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外 有包含中國的這個反間諜法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2764.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2786.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以我今天可能比較多會圍繞在這一個我們對於反間諜法這方面的因應來討論那一開始我想說先從這個中國的一個侵台的手段開始就是說我們現在面臨的就是說過往的文獻大致上都喜歡提這三點第一個當然就是我們現在面臨的這些攻擊擾台等等軍事上的措施然後也包含這些所謂統戰措施這個局長一定特別的熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2788.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2810.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
立議獲取等等之類的這些或者說用經濟的方式對台灣來做出脅迫那最後一個呢當然就是我們更熟悉的這個所謂認知作戰的操作那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2811.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2833.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那那個時候中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選那在這一個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2834.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2855.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2857.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2876.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2876.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2895.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這個數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2897.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2916.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們看到這個數量其實有高有低那這個有高有低到底是跟我們國內的比較有關係還是跟國際的有關係如果我們把其他的這些事件把它重疊之後會發現這跟歐洲的議員、美國的議員訪台其實都有高度相關我們之前的計算大概是一個議員大概就是值大概十架飛機左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2917.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2938.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人呢有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2939.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2953.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2954.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2972.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
平均大概7天到10天就會有一次聯合戰備警訊那這種所謂聯合戰備警訊的數量也像剛剛委員有指出來大概都有10架中共的戰機、戰轟機或是特種機會到台海周邊的空域來活動同時搭配有3到4艘的共艦會到周邊有相關的一個活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2972.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2999.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這是一種常態化的一個趨勢當然這也涉及到台灣跟外國往來的一些頻密的層次有關係所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3000.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3017.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個恫嚇以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散佈那主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力恫嚇過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他認知作戰的一個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3018.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3040.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係它不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3041.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3058.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3059.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3074.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3075.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3098.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動也因此我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3098.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3113.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日號做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3114.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3128.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我就一直在想說如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者也有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3129.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3150.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
好我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3150.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3179.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3180.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3201.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3202.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3218.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3219.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3241.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講可能應該知道目前來講會依照這一些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3242.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3243.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
中原越社會所畫的統戰脈絡已經深得非常深 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3259.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3271.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講他只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3279.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3299.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3300.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3325.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
目前國人道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3325.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3326.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3347.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3350.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3369.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3388.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3389.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3404.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好 這我們來努力 謝謝委員提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3405.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3435.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕所以這方面的就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3435.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3446.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來收集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3446.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3470.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3471.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3471.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3500.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3502.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
羅美玲議員發言羅美玲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3522.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3532.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
局長早很謝謝局長今天早上對今天的主題做了非常詳細的分析其實現在只要有什麼風吹草動其實國人都是憂心忡忡的常常會擔心說台海什麼時候會發生戰爭這是在我們基層常常聽到的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3544.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3573.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
從今年的大選期間我們看到的這個認知作戰還有軍機擾台一直到上個月所發生的這個中國越界船翻覆的事件其實都讓國人會覺得說會不會兩岸的衝突是就是會發生那再加上在這個本屆的兩會當中中國國務院總理李強他在3月5號的時候在全國人民大會發表的這個政府工作報告他有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3573.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3600.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
推進祖國統一少了和平這兩個字其實也引起了很多的揣測覺得非常的不尋常那當然後來習近平在六日的時候在兩會的演說有再次提到和平統一那昨天政協主席在閉幕式也提到和平統一這四個字所以局長你剛剛在報告的時候有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3600.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3615.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
融合發展依然還是中共對台的一個工作的這個重點那換句話說 局長你也認為中共暫時沒有武力犯台的這個動作是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3615.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3645.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們最近在觀察兩會期間包括兩會之前的中共的對台工作會議以及兩會期間包括習近平接見各個專業團體的代表王滬寧的談話以及李強的工作報告我們可以發現到他基本的政策主軸還是圍繞在和平統一所延續出來的反獨、觸統、觸容跟反對外力介入跟干涉這是他的主調那但是在所謂的和平統一的路線之上那他對台灣的脅迫性有稍微在加強他的力度所以我們個人把它稱為是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3645.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3646.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
所以他以後會加重這個? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3664.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3688.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但他就是要讓台灣社會有一些對於武統的想像、空間或是恐懼來達到他一個武力恫嚇的目的所以基本上還是合同的路線只是有一個脅迫性在透過複合式威脅來達到脅迫性的一個合同路線的一個推展那在另外一方面他們也提出所謂的兩岸促統促容的相關的方案這包括福建有提出了21條的對台的措施在 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3689.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3706.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
全國兩會之前的福建的兩會他們過去的對台工作要點大概排在第6位第6順位但今年提升到第3順位也就是說在中央的大交流跟促統促融的工作指導之下福建也不斷的希望能夠推動兩岸的促統促融 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3706.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3731.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那把兩岸特別是今夏之間的一個合作當成是一個兩岸融合的示範區所以我現在在跟委員報告的是中共對台政策主要都還是所謂的軟硬的兩手壓拉的兩手策略來對我們施壓那我們預判在520的前後這樣子的一個壓拉的兩手策略會持續的來進行對台灣來施壓那也來影響新政府未來兩岸政策的一個走向 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3732.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3750.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以就算是給壓拉的這個方式基本上這個武力犯台的機率最近如果是近期來講是比較不可能發生的是嗎因為我有看到有一份報導就是中共的這個前情報員姚誠他有提到中國火箭軍的這個洩密案 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3752.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3777.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他就提到說這個泄密案會影響中共攻台的這個計畫會把這個很有可能之前他們所設定的這個攻台的這個時間表呢往後延所以對於這個說法所以局長您認為呢會不會也是因為這個火箭軍事件所以造成對中國目前來講是沒有能力來渡海犯台這是姚誠的說法局長您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3777.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3806.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我想台海安全情勢的因素有非常非常的多而這些綜合因素交雜之下才會產生各種不同的劇本的情境那我們當然要針對不同因素所產生的不同劇本情境來做好相關的預應的方案跟措施就國安局的立場來講我們跟國防部還有相關的國安單位對於中共的軍事動態我們都有嚴密的掌控那也有相關的預應的措施那我們透過各種的情監偵的手段來了解到 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3807.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3834.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
中共目前軍事活動的最新的狀況同時也會跟國際的友盟針對中共現階段到底有沒有新興的意圖還有相關的活動那來做相關的情報的交流目前我們沒有看到臺海戰事一觸即發的相關的情資那當然我們會持續的關注有任何的偽異常現象的話我們都會做妥善的處理來避免情勢升高那維持臺海的穩定這部分可以請國務院放心請委員放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3835.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3852.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這部分很感謝局長的這個說明可是國人也很擔心的就是說習近平一直想要建立奠定自己的歷史地位我們從2021年的11月中共在第19屆六中全會有通過所謂的第三個歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3853.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3876.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
第一個歷史決議就是在毛澤東時期1945年的時候通過的那第二個歷史決議是在1981年鄧小平時代通過的那當然第三個歷史決議就是去2021年習近平所通過的所謂的第三個歷史決議我在想這個動作其實也是奠定 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3877.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3898.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
他的歷史定位的其中一個因為在所有的國家的領導人裡面也就是毛澤東、鄧小平跟習近平有提出了所謂的這個歷史決議那當然他的歷史決議跟鄧小平他的這個所決定的內容其實有很大的這個分歧比如說鄧小平他那時候就覺得說應該是要訂定一個比如說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3904.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3924.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所謂的這個領導人他應該要有這個這個任期這個限制可是習近平他打破了那這個推翻這個個人的崇拜當然針對可能是毛澤東而來那可是習近平在這第三個歷史決議裡面又重建了自己所謂的個人的這個崇拜所以這種種都看出習近平 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3924.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3925.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這部分的話 局長是不是也可以讓有一個讓國人比較安心的這個說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3948.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3970.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
對我想習近平他畢竟是一個建立了一個強人政治的一個領導的風格那對於強人政治來講對於他自己的歷史定位他都會有相關的一個論述我們都必須要嚴密來注意他除了論述以外後續的實際的一個行動那比較要特別注意到的是2027年習近平要達成他們中國解放軍建軍百年的總目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3970.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3992.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以也造成這幾年他們在軍事上投注的資源非常的龐大事實上討論這個問題可能不能單單只是放在兩岸或台海的框架來講因為中國有他本身的大戰略希望能夠變成是一個區域甚至是全球性的強權他有他的各個階段不同的目標也正因為如此造成台海局勢以外不管是在東海、在南海或是在西太平洋 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3993.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4018.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
各個國家都看到了中國武力的擴張那這也是我剛剛在口頭的書面報告有提到的國際的友盟對於這一塊的發展的動態非常的關注那也注意到台灣就站在中共武力擴張的第一線那願意跟台灣在各方面發展安全或情報上的交流所以我們在面對中共武力擴張的同時雖然承受不少的壓力但同時也開放了不少的機會可以加強跟國際友盟的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4019.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4042.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
接下來下一題就是有關於川普跟拜登毫無懸念可能在今年的美國大選應該就是拜登跟川普的對壘川普跟拜登這兩個人其實對在國際或國內他們的政策其實是有很大的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4043.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4051.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
拜登在國情諮詢中提到堅決維護台海和平的穩定我們剛剛局長你有提到就是兩個候選人其實他們在對外政策其實存在的差異性是還蠻大的像拜登他強調的是多邊主義可是他也力挺烏克蘭然後川普他主張的是單邊主義最主要還是優先關注國內的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4070.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4085.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那像之前這個烏俄戰爭發生的時候呢其實國人也是很關注美國對烏克蘭的這個態度那局長我們這邊有沒有會不會覺得擔心說如果川普上任的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4087.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4102.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
他可能對烏克蘭的這個軍援的態度就改變了那進而影響的會不會說如果以後如果說台海發生戰爭的時候然後川普這邊對台灣的援助是不是會像烏克蘭這樣子的消極可能會發生這種事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4103.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4131.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
對我想就中華民國政府官員的立場來講我實在不便去對於美國的內政或選舉做太多的評論但是站在情報的角度我們可以針對各種的公情還有分析彙整一下來跟委員做個報告跟說明那就兩個總統的基本的外交路線確實有看到剛剛委員所指出來的一個差異性但是他們也有他們的趨同性特別是在社中的議題上對於中國的戰略的挑戰他們都高度的關注那另外也都對於台海的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4131.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4157.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
安全的承諾也都做出非常清楚的宣誓我們可以比較一下在川普總統的任內他跟拜登總統的任內對台灣的軍售案大概都各自宣布的有10個以上的軍售案來表示他們對於台海安全的關注那當然可能兩位對於烏克蘭的問題有不同的立場不過這部分美國國會還是有一些辯論包括要不要再增加相關的增援的法案有一些辯論 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4160.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4178.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
美國行政部門和國會對於相關問題的討論的一個狀況才能夠下最後的一個定論他們有沒有一個比較新的政策路線出來所以局長的意思是說就算是川普他勝出其實我們也不需要多大的擔心畢竟他曾經也擔任過美國的總統那在那幾年我們也看出說其實他對台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4184.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4209.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
其實台海這個安全其實還是非常重視的所以在這個軍購方面其實也不用那麼擔心是不是?是這樣子的意思嗎?各位委員說明一下這就如同我們剛剛在專題報告當中有提到了就美國不管是哪一位來勝選擔任美國的總統那基本上他們這種友台至終的路線應該不至於出現太大的改變這大概是我們現階段分析判斷的主要的重點各位委員參考好謝謝,謝謝局長以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4218.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4219.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
接下來請許巧欣委員質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4239.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4264.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
好 謝謝主席 許委員好局長好我印象中呢2024年的選舉有傳出不少的影片跟錄音檔那當時大家都不斷的在問說到底呢是de-fake身為還是呢他被駭客入侵了那我今天呢就想要請問就關於後續的調查結果我們所掌握的有相關於國安的情報部分是怎麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4264.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4284.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
首先我們先看一下第一位是鄭文燦副院長先前就有委員在去年10月的時候當時在司法法治委員會那時候國安局也在他就拿了這個相關所有的影片提供給調查局跟國安局去了解是否為變造 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4285.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4299.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
但是到現在都還沒有一個結果那我想要請問一下國安局我們有沒有去了解外流影片者的來源以及他的動機涉及國安情報的部分有沒有掌握其他類似的影片在外流傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4301.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4326.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
謝委員提到這個問題這案子因為引起社會非常高度的幫助所以在發生之後我們也有稍微了解一下相關的一個狀況不過這個案子的調查因為已經移送到司法檢察機關特別是檢調已經立案在偵辦當中所以目前的調查進度我不便說明但是對於委員在關注的有沒有從國安的角度來看到他相關的一個訊息散播的一個管道跟來源這個我們要去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4327.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4349.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這部分我們所了解到的是當時的一個IP的位置是位在中國大陸的上海由這個IP的位置來進行這種源頭的散佈這部分我們倒是有掌握所以相關資訊一定要提供給檢調單位參考您的意思是說這個鄭文燦副院長他的影片是真的是假的目前在司法檢調進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4350.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4380.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
但是我們從國安情報上來說呢它的來源是從中國大陸的上海在做一個散播那請問您認為這個影片在外流傳它是否有涉及所謂的境外借選的問題對這也是我們關切的重點我們認為在大選的期間有這些影片的出來那不管它的影片的真偽就它散布的一個時間點那以及它特別鎖定的希望透過這個影片打擊的對象來講我們不能夠排除有中國希望借選的一個動作在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4380.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4399.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那您認為就是說在國安方面的資訊我們情報調查除了目前所揭露的相關影片以外就說有在媒體上面所揭露的影片以外國安單位是否有掌握其他的情資是關於鄭文燦副院長其餘的影片在外流傳的部分我們有沒有去做相對應的國安處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4400.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4416.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
目前還沒有看到其他的影片在網路上散布那假如有的話以我們的相關的技術跟系統都可以在第一時間來掌握好那第二個部分問到的是我們過去在國防外交的委員也是昭緯羅志政 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4416.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4435.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那比較嚴重的呢我覺得不是影片的問題而是立委們都有質疑就國安有沒有去調查這個蔡總統被錄音的問題那請問在於蔡總統是否有被錄音這件事情國安局就我們的國安情資所收集的了解情況是如何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4435.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4457.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
對,是跟委員報告一下這個案子在第一時間就移送到調查局來處理所以相關的一個影片或錄音檔他的真偽的辨識我們認為還是要由司法警察機關來做裁判所以我們在司法檢調出來結果之前國安局不起動對於是否蔡總統錄音有國安其他的機密外流的問題的調查嗎還是我們有同步進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4461.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4481.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
對,假如檢調方面有來文,希望我們國安局提供相關的資訊的話,我們會提供給...他們有向你們提供相關資訊嗎?目前應該還沒有,目前應該還沒有所以不曉得現在目前偵辦的情況如何?對,而且我們也不是可以去說明那個偵辦的事情因為我們非常的擔心,就是說如果這個羅志正委員他的錄音檔為真 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4482.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4502.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那包含是平常他作為國防外交委員會的周偉他平常跟包含我們很多三軍統帥包含國安局長您還有很多人都有對話的過程當中如果有錄音如果是從他的手機外流出去的那恐怕不只有蔡總統的談話被錄音局長您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4503.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4530.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
對我想對於各種可能性的推測我們尊重委員的一個猜測那因為他已經在申辦過程當中我還是會建議由司法檢查機關但是司法檢調的部分他只會針對說這個比方說這個錄音是否為真他去做一個辨識可是我們今天擔心的是沒有被公佈出來的部分我們假定我們假先假定這個東西是真的那他外流出去了但他怎麼外流的他是否是被駭客入侵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4531.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4553.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
如果是被駭客入侵的他有沒有去掌握所有的包含我們現在可能包含我的手機包含我們馬委員的手機沈委員的手機有沒有我們國防外交委員會的手機被駭客入侵的問題這一點司法檢調不會調查這一點是國安單位應該要掌握的請問我們國安局這一段時間起來對於這些情資的處理做的怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4554.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4570.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
對基本上我們不會對國內的政治人物做相關的政治的偵訪或資安的偵訪啦但是假如貴院的委員有這方面的疑慮的話那國安局很願意提供相關的專業的知識或提供必要的協助最起碼應該針對羅志正委員的這個部分要去做這更詳細的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4571.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4588.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
因為他過去是國防外交的召委跟你跟在座的各位過去都有很多私下的談話假設這個為真而不是他個人主動外流是被其他人所竊取那我們就會合理的推斷還有其他相當多跟國防、國安機密的內容是外流的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4588.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4617.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
他們或許基於其他的理由他沒有讓他在網路上面曝光但是我們國安單位是不是要去掌握到底有多少的情資去外流我們到底有沒有做這些動作呢從2024大選到現在對我想尊重委員的推論有各種可能的狀況那正如委員剛剛所假設的這是你自己的一個推論那各種可能性都有你報告可能是不是但是我們國安單位不就是針對各種可能性我們都要去提前的防範嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4618.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4639.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們今天不能說如果今天流出了蔡總統的調查蔡總統的明天如果流出局長的調查局長的後天流出國防部長的調查國防部長的如果我們知道他外線是來自他錄音的手機有這樣子的可能性我們是否在情資上面的佈線就應該要更完整的來做相關的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4640.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4667.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
對我們會重視的還是在於資通訊的安全我剛有在跟委員報告的是我們不會去偵查委員的通訊的狀況不是去偵查委員的手機而是從各方面去了解是否有特定的駭客或是境外的勢力有要用他的這樣子的一個勢力去竊取包含是國防外交委員會的機密然後相關的機密是否已經在外流傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4670.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4673.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以我們是想要問針對這個委員的部分我們現在調查的如何?我們從2024年的選舉過程到現在有做過任何的處置嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4697.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4721.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
只要相關的一個案例發生之後就以這個羅委員的部分我們等一下還會問其他的人對就相關案例的部分就是有檢調來釐清相關狀況所以國安局都沒有去做對就國安局的狀況來講我們會注意中共對於我們國內各種的知通安全的侵害再跟你確認一次就是針對羅志正委員的這個部分我們就單純的送到檢調國安局沒有做其他任何的處置對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4722.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4749.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
對,我們剛剛也有在講,我們在溯源沒有問題,我們再問下一位那這個跟手機已經沒有關係了這是當時我們資深的國防外交委員趙天麟委員因為他的緋聞對象是一位大陸局的女子當時就有非常多的立法委員詢問有沒有涉及國安疑慮當事人當下聲稱說他願意接受國安調查那請問這方面我們的調查結果如何有沒有涉入所謂的境外勢力介入選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4750.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4772.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這些案子剛剛講的委員提到的案子都已經送到了司法這個沒有啊 這個跟司法沒有關係這是他個人的私德的問題他個人也是把這個案子有移送到檢調局但是問題是他說他願意接受的是國安調查他當時不是司法的部分歸司法國安的部分歸國安所以我想請問在趙天麟案上面我們國安單位有沒有做相對應的啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4774.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4793.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
國安局是情報機關我們並不是司法檢查機關所以我們要問的是這名女子她是否在我們的國安調查當中認定是刻意的來接近國防外交的委員來竊取機密是針對這個部分跟司法檢調無關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4794.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4798.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以你們有去啟動相關的調查在這個案子上面所以那我可不可以換一句話問說在趙天麟案裡面我們所調查這名大陸籍的女子她是否涉及境外勢力影響台灣選舉在 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4820.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4844.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這個訊息出來的時間點確實是比較敏感因為確實是在選舉的期間那另外我剛才跟委員提到了這些影片所曝露的對象幾乎都是特定政黨的相關的黨政人士所以在時間上還有在特定對象上就我們國安單位來講我們不能夠排除有中共借選的問題所以你們在趙天麟案上面不能夠排除他們這個事件是有中國大陸這個借選的問題嗎各種可能都有我們會協助檢調來釐清案情 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4847.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4870.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那另外最近立法院上上下下接到很多的恐嚇信包含是韓國瑜院長包含是江啟臣副院長我們立法院的多名藍綠的立委請問目前掌握評估有沒有國安相關的疑慮對這個案子事實上他針對刑事局的一個專案調查因為不是單一個案這幾年有非常多的這個案件出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4871.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4900.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我們就針對近期發生的這件事情就好了目前刑事局所掌握的資訊顯示的是境外的入籍人士在進行這一種但是目前是沒有對臺灣的政壇有所謂的國安影響的單純就是比如說大陸的它是比較偏網路上面的這方面對 它 跟我們說明一下它現在透過這種網路郵件的恐嚇的對象大概有包括到主要的是桃園國際機場占最大量另外是總統府 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4901.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4922.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
另外是警政署的署長信箱那接下來就是各個委員的相關的民意信箱因為時間的關係我還有一個小問題想要來請教你就是說最近金下海域的事件大家都非常關心我們在國安層次對該事件的掌握我想要問在第一時間金下海域發生這樣狀況的時候有沒有通知蔡英文總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4924.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4941.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
有在第一時間我記得是發生在2月14號的下午中午大概一點多的時間那我們在第一時間就有掌握相關的情質第一時間我所知道的是海巡的弟兄很辛苦的動員各式的船艦跟人員來進行搜救因為原來四名船員當中有一名一直沒有找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4942.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4962.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那後來發現就是船長被壓在船的底下那部分幾乎整個下午都在做搜救的作業所以我們不安單位都有掌握相關的資訊掌握之後我們有沒有讓蔡總統清楚明白整個過程那請問我們在當時向蔡總統報告的時候是不是使用了我們海巡弟兄第一時間所提出來的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4964.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4980.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
有沒有這件事情我們不好意思主席我們海巡也在是否可以請他們也上來稍微說明一下就說我們海巡單位第一時間其實弟兄是有很清楚的把整個資訊過程都寫出來的請問我們是否是將該份報告上呈給總統參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4983.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5004.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
公務委員報告我們上去的這個報告我不曉得那個到底有沒有整個給蔡總統但是是否有這份報告包含是管制長、黃志誠、海域執行官吳俊雄等人、巡防組、勤務指揮科他們是否有做相關的報告提供出來的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5007.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5027.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以這份我們可能就是國安局長這邊請問一下我們所掌握的第一時間海巡提供的是不是就是把他們的報告送成交給蔡總統我們收到相關的意外事件都會把相關的最新的資訊報告海巡所以是不是我們兩位都在嗎就是海巡弟兄第一時間寫了很詳盡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5029.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5049.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
再給大家看一下很詳細的報告報告之後呢就拿這個報告然後我們也呈交給蔡總統讓他做國情相關的評估就國安局來講我們收到的資訊來自各部會可能不只海巡還有其他單位沒有我只是想問這一份有沒有提供給蔡總統就海巡弟兄第一時間所做的相關報告有沒有提供給蔡總統做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5050.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5061.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
包括我們往上層的報告我們是摘要報告往上送摘要報告所以這份可能沒有看你們沒有往上送這一份完整的是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5062.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5087.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
上面有誰收過呢?署長、許副署長、張副署長、主任秘書、巡防組組長、督察組組長都有收到這份報告我們不是上呈這份報告給蔡總統是更簡要的報告是嗎?是所以總統不知道最後一分鐘總統不知道你們在第一時間裡面寫的就是雙方船隻是因碰撞而導致翻覆了解了那因為時間的關係我們就先講香港情勢我們都會整給政府決定單卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5088.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5089.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5124.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5143.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好,謝謝主席。連委員長。局長你好。我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後,大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注。不過我想就像您在報告所說的,中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5144.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5164.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三五船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會斟酌於這個糾結於名詞上面然後明明是一個他們也非常無法接受也在嚴格強力取締的三五船 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5164.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5180.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是當我們在執法的時候他會故意透過名詞上的定義來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5181.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5181.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5202.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5207.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5215.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5230.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是不要給它壓囉?對 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5233.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5254.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
對,當然,就這次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5257.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5280.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
包括在2月14號發生的這個事件之後2月17號中共的台辦系統就出來講說台灣方面沒有所謂的禁制水域然後海警系統也跟進這樣的說法所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5281.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5298.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為它要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5302.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5324.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5324.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5326.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好,所以像這個部分的壓齁其實是展現在方方面面來看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5342.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5358.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5360.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5370.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5378.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5386.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5405.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5420.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以以 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5421.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5423.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5439.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5461.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個是治安的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5462.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5488.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5489.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5502.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5506.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5526.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
能夠讓更多的國人看清包括中國就是一個境外的敵對勢力他始終是存在的三無傳的事件其實就明明白白的告訴全國的民眾他們正在企圖破壞我們原本制定的遊戲規則要來進行打壓台灣主權這是壓但是另外一方面來看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5528.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5534.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促容以惠促容跟以勤促容 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5543.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5562.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
．併講 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5562.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5579.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
以情、以經濟優惠、經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5591.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5602.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5617.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5637.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海溪區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5638.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5653.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種促通促融的一個氣氛那不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5654.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5654.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
國防部副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5671.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5672.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我總的來說,如果像是這種口味 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5691.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5697.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5720.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5723.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5736.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5753.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對對這是我們的工作這是我們的工作也就是兩岸的地方的交流合法的我們都尊重但是對於中共操作的手法整體的樣態以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些背後的政治意圖目的是什麼我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析給決策高層做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5753.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5764.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5774.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5799.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這些手法它的背後比如它送你一千三百塊台幣三百塊人民幣它要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融它要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5800.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5820.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5822.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5844.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5846.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5871.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5871.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5889.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好,所以我只想請您給一個結論,不好意思主席,就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性,也包含了中國的擴權,其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的,所以你可不可以做一個總結,就是這樣的一個方向,你怎麼來看? |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5889.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5889.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5921.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5925.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請蔡局長邀請局長謝謝主席 麻煩你早局長早 局長我想請教一下近期你睡得好嗎我從來沒有想到睡覺問題比專業問題還要難回答因為我講睡得好好像我不重視台海緊張情勢我說我睡不好好像台海情勢很緊張 有在睡覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5953.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5967.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5968.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5978.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5997.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6012.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6018.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6038.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6042.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6057.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他的戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6058.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6061.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6079.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6089.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦1300塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦那如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助5000塊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6107.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6133.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的可以收到很多的利益都還不見得可以收買人心更何況是小恩小惠所以不要把台灣人自己貶得這麼低我們現在要的是自信 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6136.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6160.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
過去我們在兩岸不管在哪一個國家我們台灣其實我們的進步還有我們的發展還有我們的民主自由才是這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6162.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6175.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6179.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6184.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
可能有一些是把它誤會了這個等一下請副部長再說明一下所謂的實體航空航海的實體到底是什麼你連漁船或者像一些他們的工程船都算嗎這個部分我想應該要有必要說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6197.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6217.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6219.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6236.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
距離六海里的地方大陸的漁船大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里我們有什麼樣的處置作為看起來那時候是沒有為什麼那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6237.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6254.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6255.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6278.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6279.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6296.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6297.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6325.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6326.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6353.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知也有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6354.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6373.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6379.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6405.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6406.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6431.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
另外,接下來,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個,就...委員,我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域,我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定,這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定。那苗栗的那個大型漁船,你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6433.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6438.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況我們請海巡署來做個補充已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為? |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6440.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6465.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐震指數那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6466.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6482.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的巡温艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6485.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6488.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6503.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6506.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6521.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6539.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6542.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6569.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6571.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6585.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當他進到六海里的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6589.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6605.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6608.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6627.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,我最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6632.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6651.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借選 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6652.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6676.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6677.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6695.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是怎麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6696.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6721.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6722.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6732.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
有 這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6749.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6764.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6767.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6768.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6796.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6805.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你們有嗎?有做嗎?有做到嗎?不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6810.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6810.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝偉提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6850.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6853.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6873.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6884.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
謝主席、楊文昭我們的國防部長、邱部長在上週質詢的時候他表示以往認定的中共的第一級是指開槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6886.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6887.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
在這樣的一個情況之下甚至部長說他憂心的都睡不著 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6909.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6937.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那本席就要在這邊請教局長面對的兩岸的情勢的一個嚴峻那我們國安局你如何的應對那對於第一級的認定他已經是改變這個定義那可能會不會有擦槍走火幾乎我們整個海峽中線等於是消失在這樣的情況之下呢我們的國安局呢你如何的去應對你認為對我們的國安有什麼樣的影響請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6938.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6963.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
好 謝謝委員就整個部隊的指揮權來講主要是由三軍統帥下達指令給國防部部長再下達到我們的三軍部隊那剛剛委員所提到的在什麼時機點來所謂對於入侵的這些敵方的這些海空實體來進行因應的話這也是根據到聯合國的憲章還有國際法規定這是一種自我防衛權的展現那至於使用自我防衛權的時機點 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6964.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6991.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
還有它的標準的應處的程序是什麼那這部分我們必須要尊重國防部相關的專業的判斷以及他們的預應的方案那另外一部分是在國安局的部分怎麼樣來應處這樣的一個局勢那早上也跟其他委員跟媒體朋友稍微說明跟報告到那對於整個中共的軍事的動態還有海域安全的活動我們國安局跟國防部以及其他的國安的團隊我們都有嚴密的監控那有狀況的話我們會依照我們應處的相關的預案 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6994.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7011.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
來做妥善的處置那特別透過各種的情監針的手法包括電針、雷情、衛照等方式來了解他活動的一個狀況那而且這部分也跟國際的友盟都有在交換情質來判斷中共會不會在這個階段來新興的意圖跟相關的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7011.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7024.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那目前我們沒有看到台海戰事一觸即發的相關的情資但後續我們會持續的密註有任何的違常狀況我們都依照我們預應的方案來處理避免情勢升高維持情勢的穩定這部分可以請委員放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7025.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7054.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
願意給這麼多的時間請您來說明也就是希望讓我們的民眾都能夠更加的了解讓他們能夠更安心因為聽到部長說他都煩惱的睡不著憂心這是一個負責任的態度這是一個負責任態度當然政府橫向的聯繫尤其是你們的體系更當是緊密的這個聯繫那當然剛才你說到請大家放心沒有一處 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7061.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7083.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
當一個定義他已經改變的時候是否他的動作有怎麼樣的一個不一樣這是人民會恐慌的一點所以必須要繼續加油那以往的政府曾經有說過如果台海兩岸這個有緊張的狀況有了十幾套的這個配套啊這個方案那你們是不是有多少套啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7084.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7086.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以換句話說,你的因應方案是好幾套 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7114.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7142.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
當然當然繼續我們要討論國內外的媒體跟學者分析那今年的美國總統大選應該是由現任的拜登對上了那前任的總統川普在這樣的情況之下請教局長大家對於這一戰是非常的這個關注請教局長我們有持續掌控相關的情報因為美國大選的一個情勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7143.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7167.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
兩黨對於我們跟對大陸尤其是對大陸他們的政策是否有所調整那對於我們我們的友台政策是不是會延續當然我們也非常的感謝美國以及很多的國際友人對我們的支持但是有時候擦槍走火我們也沒有想到國際上目前是這麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7168.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7169.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
美國和西方對於這兩場戰爭都投入了很多資源,那是不是會影響到未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7190.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7212.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們的這個軍援台灣的計畫會不會軍售會不會產生變化國際情勢的緊張對於我們的國安有什麼影響你如何因應請做說明謝謝委員就大選的部分我簡單說明目前的選舉的狀況我不做細部的評論因為我們中澳民國政府不適合評論外國的選舉我只是把目前的選情 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7213.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7239.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
狀態跟委員報告那目前我們的判斷應該川普跟拜登很有機會可以各自獲得自己黨內的提名因為就民主黨來講他的黨代表的票要一千九百多票拜登已經拿了一千八百多票共和黨的部分川普要拿一千兩百多票他已經拿了一千多票兩位都只差一百多票所以本期說了這兩位應當是可以篤定是兩個候選人對被提名的機會非常非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7240.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7260.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
因為當然還要進入到6月跟7月他們的黨代表大會才會做最後的決定那在那之前我們判斷被提名的機會很高這是第一點那第二點是針對兩位總統候選人他們的外交的政策還有對中對台的政策那請跟委員報告一下他們路線不太一樣在外交政策上那川普比較重視的是單邊主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7262.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7278.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
拜登比較重視的是多邊主義這是他們主要的差別的地方但是在對中政策上因為現在美國整體的政治氣氛都把中共視為是一個戰略的競爭對手這幾乎是兩者都同步對兩者同步行政跟立法部門還有兩大黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7279.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7298.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
對那對台灣的支持也是越來越支持這包括國會通過的相關的法案然後兩位總統包括川普總統任內也宣布了超過10項的對台的軍售案包括有MQ-9的一個無人機也包括了有海馬子的這是以往所以剛剛本席也提出了那以巴戰爭、俄烏戰爭他們投入了這麼多的資源會不會影響到我們的軍援、我們的軍售 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7307.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7333.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
在我們掌握的資訊裡面他們現在重點還是在印太區域的安全他們認為是重中之重甚至確實也像委員所提到的有些共和黨相關的國會議員他們就認為在所謂的中東或烏克蘭投出太多資源的話會影響到在印太地區對於中國的制衡所以各種聲音都有那後續我們會注意到他們在大選辯論的一個政策的走向 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7334.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7363.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個就是本席之所以願意給你這麼多時間給社會大眾說明也就是最後這一句話必須要持續去追蹤之因為變化非常的大我們希望臺灣人民我們中華民國只希望能夠安全只希望能夠安全民眾要的就是如此這一點是非常重要所以本席希望要持續的去掌握那最後一個議題本席請教520即將上任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7364.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7378.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
新政府要上任那過去呢這個當選人賴清德先生也說了這個準總統說了他表示會將這個留任國安團隊的這個成員那請問局長您在520之後你會繼續擔任局長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7384.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7401.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這部分剛剛在會議之前媒體也有關心我大概簡單跟委員說明一下在520之前我們就做好我們現在每一天的工作但520之後要尊重新總統的人事佈局那我就現任的一個官員的身份我不適合去評論新總統相關的規劃不適合評論跟議策如果不當國安局長你也可能會轉為外交部長請問這是你人生的規劃當中嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7410.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7415.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我們不適合做評論跟臆測是不是你人生的規劃當中呢?不適合評論跟臆測 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7416.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7440.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以本期也希望因為在這個兩岸情勢持續的緊張之下新政府上台之後國安整個的策略是否會有怎麼樣的調整這是人民非常非常的關心所以我們也希望能夠讓我們的台灣能夠安全國家能夠安全這是我們非常重要的一個對人民的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7441.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7442.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
目前為止有沒有得到什麼諮詢? |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7462.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7462.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7492.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7493.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
謝謝主席,我們請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7501.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7508.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
本席來跟您討論一下TikTok的資安問題還有這個國安問題那先給局長看這個3月10號有兩則關於TikTok的新聞那第一則就是說拜登美國總統說這個如果眾議院通過這個TikTok的禁案通過了他就簽那第二個是說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7525.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7554.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
反撤資安TikTok發動用戶電話抗議美國的這個眾議員請問一下局長知不知道這兩則新聞知道我們也都很重視TikTok所引發的資安問題等一下會請教局長現在各個國家也管這個TikTok的理由這個不論是從資安或是從國安都有那從美國來看就是說這個TikTok他們認為這個TikTok是管理階層是聽命於中國的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7554.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7573.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
TikTok可能被用來影響美國人．或是將美國的個資交給中國政府．而且有對於兒童心理健康造成損害．甚至也對記者進行監視．這是美國．那包含英國、澳洲、印度、尼泊爾等等都有．那在台灣呢．我們蘇巴夫在2022年的12月5號．有發函 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7579.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7595.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
禁止公部門使用抖音那台灣是用國家治安的理由禁止公部門設備下載使用但是禁令是否有擴及一般的民眾目前還沒有法源依據對不對就是只有公部門禁止使用但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7596.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7624.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個美國他已經從這一個國安層級來管制TikTok我剛剛有提到說3月7號美國眾議院能源及商業委員會一致通過50比0保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式的侵害法案然後呢如果中國自己的跳動公司呢未在6個月內撤資將面臨美國的禁令那美國的眾議院議長也說這是一個重要跨黨派的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7625.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7643.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
來對抗正積極、削弱我國經濟、安全我們的最大地緣政治敵人中國這個美國眾議院長講得很清楚所以接下來請教局長怎麼看這個美國眾議院目前通過這一項對TikTok禁令那這個對於台灣這個未來的這個管制有沒有任何的啟示 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7644.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7664.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
對於TikTok的治安的問題我們長期都有在關注那正如委員所提到的那國際社會特別是美國跟歐洲國家還有包括南亞的印度尤其南亞的印度他要通過特別的立法來禁止TikTok的全面的使用那相關的一個關注的重點我們都會做相關的研析大概有幾個部分一個部分是TikTok的股權的結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7665.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7694.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
因為有中資在裡面包括有中國的央視都有在裡面的股權那另外有一些有中的外資也在裡面那加上中國相關的國安法制可能會要求Ttalk來分享相關的情資這是股權結構可能產生的疑慮第二部分是在資安的問題從純粹的資安的技術的角度來看Ttalk確實有可能讓使用者的個資或相關使用Ttalk這個APP的過程當中一些個人的偏好資訊會被收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7695.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7696.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
美國眾議院是用治安還有國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7718.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7718.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
拜登總統簽了下載APP |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7736.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7763.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這個部分有幾個層面要討論第一個是你的禁用是怎麼樣的禁用那第一種有可能是禁止下載APP的下載的動作那我記得這在上一屆的立院林靜宇委員也提出這樣的臨時提案也就是說有沒有可能在下載過程當中有一些警示的告警作用讓國人在下載過程當中可以知道他的資安風險這是下載的部分那第二個部分是涉及到有沒有可能是禁止使用的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7764.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7779.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個部分我們會建議最好是有一些相關的法規的完備才不會引起社會太大的爭議就美國的如果是他這個法案通過的話他其實是禁止試用的如果說這個智慧跳動公司他沒有從TikTok設置的話他是禁止使用App對 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7781.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7809.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以它其實是做到非常根本的處理方式對,那它會變成一個除了印度以外的一個新的案例那台灣呢?因為連美國議長都認為說中國是他們最大的地緣政治的敵人那更不用講說中國對於台灣不論是認知作戰或是目前的文攻武嚇那如果說美國決定了這樣子做的話就是說字節跳動他們沒有從這個TikTok設置打算禁掉這個APP的話那台灣怎麼做? |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7810.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7835.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我想不單是說美國怎麼做,我們就要跟著怎麼做當然,我的意思是說當美國認為說中國是他們的地緣政治的敵人了那更何況台灣離中國這麼近那歷屆的選舉都有這個認知作戰、假訊息透過這個TikTok甚至連這個我們在選後都還有在TikTok流傳就是說什麼這個作票的情況對於台灣的影響是非常大的啊所以我是從美國例子來看台灣要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7837.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7866.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我們認為這部分還是要有一些社會的討論那包括在立法院那從這個國安局的角度來看國安局的角度來講我們當然會去提醒有治安的風險這個部分我們是可以從國安專業的角度來講不只是治安的風險我剛有提到這不是只有治安美國不是從治安美國是從國安的角度來看他的治安會連動到有國安的問題這個當然沒有問題那我們就國安局的立場當然會特別提醒在這一部分要來注意但是我再次強調的是政策的形成或法規的形成要一個社會溝通的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7867.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7887.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我列示說當美國都已經警惕到說這個TikTok對他們的影響、治安、國安的影響台灣更要有警惕心那身為國安局的局長我覺得對這部分來講的話應該要有更高的警戒性才行我們有在注意相關的美國立法的一個進度以及他們關切的重點再請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7889.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7901.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
目前在去年美國的聯邦眾議院有通過台灣國際團結法案然後歐洲議會也有通過一個歐洲關係這最主要都在講說聯合國大會的2758號決議這個沒有處理中國代表權的問題沒有涉及到台灣對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7911.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7934.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
對,這是中共的一個國際一中的框架,想要限縮台灣的主權地位跟國際參與的空間,我們必須要予以回擊。對,那現在連那個諾魯,他在跟我們斷交的時候,他是怎麼講的?他就說這個以一中原則還有這個2758號決議啦,然後這個跟台灣來斷交。那但是呢,這個AIT的這個主席羅森伯格他有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7937.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7943.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這個2758號決議沒有決定台灣的地位沒有排除任何國家與台灣建立外交國系也沒有排除台灣有意義的參與聯合國的體系空間對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7945.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7975.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我想2758號決議中國有刻意錯誤的去解讀主要的目的就是去先塑我們的主權地位矮化我們的主權地位讓台灣變成是國際一中的框架之下那中國的附庸那這部分我們會建議要不斷的來串聯國際社會在這部分做更進一步的說明那所以本席要請教在520之前這個中國有沒有這個在這個國際的法律認知戰上面就是在這個所謂的這個國際一中的框架下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7975.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7999.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
加強對於台灣的這個施壓有這樣的跡象我們剛剛在報告當中也提到了他現在主要的重點就是在國際一中的框架來限縮我們的國際參與的空間用在520之前他也會持續的透過這種施壓的狀況來影響後續新政府的兩岸政策走向本席要請教說在520之前有沒有可能有邦交國宣布斷交的跡象 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8001.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8026.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這要持續的來注意啦因為中共他現在在誘拉我們邦交國的做法越來越多元他不單單只是透過政府之間的接觸他也透過他的名氣包括華為在當地有很多的動作例如有一些投資案例如有一些支通建設的基礎設施例如有一些設備的捐助那利用這些的活動來加強跟我們邦交國政府的一個互動聯繫我們都有在注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8027.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8040.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以局長也有這個在追蹤就是說有可能在520之前第一個就是在國際中的這個法律戰的認知上面對於台灣的施壓那第二個是不是有跡象你們有跡象就是說認為說有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8040.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8064.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
在520之前在外交上面會再繼續施壓台灣的這個外交空間我們會保持高度的警戒所以是有這個跡象就對了我們駐外同仁所有人都非常的注意中共對我們邦交國相關右拉的動作請你們多注意因為有可能在520之前會再繼續再施壓避免另外一個懦弱事件再發生對我們避免這種事情的發生謝謝委員的提醒謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8075.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8083.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
現在先宣告等一下賴世保委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢麻煩請局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8110.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8130.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
謝謝主席 陳委員早早 局長我先針對國安局的統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的政策方針裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8131.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8160.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個俄羅斯莫斯科的美國這個公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8161.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8174.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8175.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8191.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導統合協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8191.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8211.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享以便來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8212.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8226.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8228.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8241.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門縣的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8246.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8265.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8266.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8282.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8282.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8306.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大 比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8307.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8321.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8322.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8349.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我想最近有許多國會議員、我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說啦我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有就是在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道但我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8351.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8377.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8377.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8405.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8406.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8425.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8426.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8455.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那大家就會覺得說不安的感覺那好像立法委員受到威脅可是我沒辦法在一定的期限內能夠至少知道說大概是什麼樣的機關組織或者是個人做這件事情所以情報的另外一個工作當然是除了內部參考之外也是向公眾釋出訊息就是說國安局也好各大情治單位知道是誰知道為什麼他們做知道資金的來源是什麼這樣的話對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8456.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8464.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8466.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8495.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
人民的組成是非常重要的就是人民反應在輿論人民反應在各種不同的威脅的時候他們可能會恐慌我們可能會恐慌我們也來自民間所以確保資訊的傳播的可信度我們寧願不說話但我們講話就一定要有一定的真憑性就是要有證據國安局這個部分我也是希望能夠有這樣的機會來透過這樣的機會來跟國安局長來講這件事情那再來就是針對中共組織犯罪的部分那我們知道說統促黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8501.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8517.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判那是說因為證據不足或判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8518.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8534.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件他的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8535.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8558.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
檢察機關還有調查機關甚至都有相關的講習來訓練我們的檢察官在偵辦這些案件的過程當中可以更知道中共滲透的手法以及在偵辦查查的過程當中怎麼樣找到相關的立案的指標將來移送到檢方跟院方撐案機會會比較大那這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8558.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8577.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對有有有這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8578.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8601.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要正式立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8604.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8624.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8627.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8646.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的這個資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的這個文官都要有非常完整的講習 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8647.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8648.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8663.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8664.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8692.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8714.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8715.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8720.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
在我們的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8740.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8767.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8768.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8791.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8793.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8811.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這部分都有相關的東西出去,我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話,國安局有沒有辦法提出協調、協助?好,大概兩個面向,第一個部分是就中華電信的部分,他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關、交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8814.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8835.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8835.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8859.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8859.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8860.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8894.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8912.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
請國安局蔡局長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8916.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8924.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對國人到香港的商務或者旅遊的人身的安全或者是言論自由會不會造成很大的影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8925.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8953.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
對,相關的一個立法的過程我們在密切的關注預計大概可能在未來的幾個月內就會通過這個立法那這個法案已經講了幾十年我從二、三十年前就曾經做這個議題所以你說在未來幾個月都會通過立法對,對,對 說立法對國人在香港的旅遊或者商務的行為會不會造成很大的影響對,要注意對,因為看到時候要看它的法律的條文那一般來講中共通過的法律條文他說在境內境內有沒有包括這個機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8955.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8972.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
對,他的境內還有他的所謂的機場包括包括我當然要注意阿,他有可能在你通關的過程當中要注意,要注意,確實要注意要非常注意還是要小心注意就是要特別注意我看我都不敢經過那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8974.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8986.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我都沒有經過香港轉機啊你也不敢嘛齁政府官員都不敢吧不會我們不會過去政府官員大概都沒有人敢經過香港轉機如果你這個香港基本法這個通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8987.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9010.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你只要說讓他發現說你在這個有發表過這個相關對中國這個不利的言論或者批評的言論你就可能按照香港基本法被抓走了不過跟委員報告一下現在通過香港的那個基本那個相關的國安法規之前現在就已經有國人在過境香港被約談過境香港對在過境香港被有沒有被拘留 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9014.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9027.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以香港不是一個特別行政區香港變成一個中華人民共和國的香港市或是香港省 類似這種概念它不是一個特別行政區 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9028.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9053.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以國人去香港的這個相關的人身自由言論都會受到跟在中國境內一樣的待遇嗎?是不是這樣?要注意有這樣的發展趨勢你是要提醒國人喔?有,我們會利用這個機會來警示國人我可能這一輩子啊,我不會去香港,連轉機都不可能因為還是中華人民共和國的一省嘛,或者一個市嘛另外討論一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9056.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9083.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
台海的問題每天那麼多的基建去干擾特別是這個他們的主力戰機為什麼會請博副部長博副部長是空軍出身為什麼請空軍參謀長就是我們空優的部分每天面臨到這個中國那麼多的基建的干擾甚至在越過海的中間我們有沒有掌握局部空優還是我們有這個有自信是全面性的空優 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9085.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9105.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那個請國防部長報告委員有關於這個局部公安全面空優應該是當時的這個敵對的狀況不過在空軍來講就目前張相洲交戰的時候我們有沒有空優報告委員基本上來講一個飛行員來講就是說在我們的所有的火力涵蓋範圍裡面事實上我們是長有絕對的空優 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9108.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9122.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
因為 絕對的空擁是的 為什麼 因為它是暴露在我的防空的火炮的範圍裡面可是他們數量也比較多啊報告委員 這跟數量和你的戰略戰法都很有關係但是基本上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9124.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9150.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以不是一樣取勝,我們是以質取勝,對不對?是的,重點...那我們的戰機性能也比他們更優越報告委員,我要這樣講,所有的戰機它有它的優缺點但是在乎的是什麼?是那個飛行員,飛行員的訓練非常重要對啊,你講到飛行員我就擔心,會不會有飛行員斷層的問題?飛行員養成不易耶是的,委員是岡山的委員,特別了解我們的訓練從來沒有停過 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9151.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9166.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那至於說飛行員的補充事實上是按照我們座艙比來做調整有更優渥的待遇來鼓勵年輕人投入空軍特別是在戰鬥飛行員的行列然後我很擔心說我們有好的戰機但是沒有一個人力來執行這個空優的戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9170.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9194.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個是我擔心的問題報告委員您現在目前我們所有的主力戰機基本上來講我們的飛行員都足夠的那另外一個對於一個新進人員的這個招募的工作我們從來沒有見斷過那我想我們今天我希望說你不要報喜不報憂我是了解實際狀況是蠻嚴峻的人力的補充還是一個很大的議題這可以借到任務的調節來調節飛行員的他的量的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9197.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9226.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
高強度、高長時間的這個戰略的壓力很多的這個飛行員是面臨到很多身心上的壓力對不對那長期以來這個當然會對他們的這個身心狀態造成影響所以能力補充很重要我也希望局長以你的高度你自己協調各個相關的國防單位所以局長你要認識你要了解如何去解決空軍飛行員戰力的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9228.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9252.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那個副部長你有報告委員有關你所提到的問題這個我想我們空軍長久以來不但只是空軍國軍所有的人力的招募工作從來沒有停止過我都了解啦我是擔心說這個共機的這個干擾這個長時間的這不是一天兩天所以造成我們的飛行員真的是身心壓力非常大謝謝委員的關心我們再入會調整高校機我們有沒有可能再增加數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9253.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9254.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
外交及國防部副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9269.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9295.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
出教機也要規劃跟委員報告事實上我們出教機從以前到現在沒有停止過在規劃那在評估的規劃上面來講空軍始終在這個方面做評估不能始終在評估你要進入實質的規劃階段你要有一個方案出來當然有方案我希望你們遵循國機國造的一個方向我們才能掌握我們自己的研發能量才能掌握我們自己的核心技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9296.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9313.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
保委員我跟您報告所有的國機、國造或是國防產業都是我們國防部支持的那在這個過程當中我們必須要看我們這個所有的國防產業的發展現況所以現在護照其實要外購還是要我們自製還沒有定案這沒有定案還在評估要到122年的時候它才會發生問題112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9317.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9331.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
一百二十二年,你才會開始做規劃嗎?我們現在就已經開始做初步的規劃和評估。那個國安局,蔡局長,你覺得是需要一些國機國造還是要外購?這一部分的評估還是由國防部在作業當中。這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9334.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9361.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們再找時間來討論好那一個原則要把握還是要國際國造有這是我們的政策方向那另外影響中國國家穩定的因素包括它的社會穩定的問題經濟的因素包括國際的因素也包括這個台灣的因素你覺得現階段是哪些四個上我剛剛所說四個因素是哪四個這四個因素裡面這個最目前現階段在未來這個兩三年影響中國國家穩定這四個因素哪個最強烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9362.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9371.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我覺得中國大陸內部的因素還是最重要的社會經濟問題是他們目前國內經濟穩定最大的一個威脅另外美國拜登總統或者是未來可能他們的競爭對手又可能川普他們兩個目前的民調是勢均力敵誰勝誰還尚難定料 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9390.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9418.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
他們兩個這個可能的總統．對於這個如何介入台海．如果台海一旦發生戰事．他們介入台海．有沒有相關的劇本規劃．或者因應的戰略因為這兩位總統．一位是現任總統．一位是前任總統你所掌握的這個訊息．你從拜登或者是從川普．在過去所要的言論．或者川普在上任的時候． |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9420.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9443.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對台海如果一旦發生戰事有沒有做相關的這個戰略因應的方案的評估有就那個那個拜登總統他曾經4次的公開講他對於台海情勢的關注那以及美國也會採取必要的行動來維護台海的安全那川普總統在他的任內也曾經宣布超過10項以上的軍售案必要行動不包括也許不包括軍事行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9445.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9472.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我是講針對軍事介入的這部分協防台灣這部分協防台灣就牽涉到指使館通勤的這個合作啊就你們所掌握拜登跟這個未來可能有可能是川普他們有沒有因應海洋發展一旦發生戰事的時候有沒有用這個軍事介入台灣或者協防台灣的戰略規劃為文本對他們都有做相關印太安全的情勢的評估以及預案的一個準備他們兩個都有就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9473.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9496.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
一直都有美國的整體的英台戰略對於可能突發的狀況他們都有相關的意義我再30秒齁這個如果兩岸發這個一旦會有可能發生局部的衝突一個就是在海峽中線一個就是在金門一個就可能在太平島太平島太平島那個局長你有去過嗎有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9499.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9523.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
本席在第二屆當召委的時候我曾經考察這個太平島以現階段的兩岸的情勢來看這個海巡署的高層或者國防部的高層這個甚至總統府的高層或者是立法院的這個國防委員會適不適合現階段去這個太平島考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9524.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9543.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我想到太平島的狀況還是要做整體區域政治情勢的評估啦因為畢竟現在在南海的情勢是比較升溫的那過程當中相對不敏感的齁如果立法院國防委員會或是我是以經濟委員會考察這個南海經濟海域的問題你覺得這個時候去適不適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9548.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9572.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
就行政作業上國防部應該有一般的一個行政作業的流程海巡系沒有問題吧我是覺得有必要性啦從這個形式上、宣示上或者實質上都有它的必要性但是相對才有相對不敏感的就是用立法院來好 謝謝時間的關係那我請那個那個簡單回答或者再去報告好不好簡單回答海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9574.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9586.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
如果立法院組一個考察團去太平島,你們會全力協助嗎?如果政策決定,我們全力配合。那你那個署裡面的高層有沒有去過,或者海委會有沒有去過?都去過,很多去過。接下來請賴氏寶委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9607.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9615.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
謝謝主席有請蔡局長以及我們國防部的副部長請蔡局長、國防部副部長我請教兩位長官我看到前面有委員質詢過蔡局長蔡局長說根據情勢現在兩岸和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9635.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9647.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
大陸並沒有身高敵意沒有兵兇戰危的氣氛這就使我想到我們國防部的部長邱國正上個禮拜就在這裡他提到了第一集 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9653.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9676.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
第一集,他說只要大陸的,他講的是大陸嘛,越界,求是越什麼界,那個副部長有沒有講一下,越什麼界,告訴我們。報告委員,這個定義非常明顯,在國際法,我們所有的領空領海都是二十海領界邊,到涉海裡是我們的領海區或領空區,這就叫越界。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9678.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9695.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
因為海峽中線算不算越界這個條線事實上我們長年的默契被中共打破了對但是現在我要跟委員報告的我們所有國際法的規定任何國家只要超過12海裏就是他的臨海12海裏另外還有一個12海裏啊那個是24海臨街臨街區臨街區他進到臨街要不要管 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9699.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9726.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我大量管 但是我們所有的規定裡面在全世界任何國家都是如果你未經公告要進到這個區域的時候我們必須要廣播你已經接近了再進一步你繼續前進我就攔截當攔截處置的時候如果你還不聽那我們就會用一些驅離的動作一直到12海里如果說進入到所有12海里以內全世界按照聯合國第51條 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9728.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9743.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所規定的都是行使自衛權那這個要看一定要打啦就對了啦報告委員我跟你們講全世界各國在除這個講白話就是打就對了他有很多的措施他有很多的措施還不是打這些措施我們都要看當時啊別說第1期講整包第1期就是要打啦嚇嚇叫啦第1期啊全世界各國的作戰手法都是一樣都是一樣都是按照這樣子的行使自衛權的方式來做領空怎麼決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9757.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9765.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
領空也是一樣12海里的上上延伸所以進到這裡那這是12再加1224呢24那是臨界區要不要管當然要管那怎麼管我們在臨界區的時候我們海巡署廣播廣播國軍的情監偵單位都會廣播所以你已經接近我的臨界區了請問你喔是只要進入我們的12海里或者上面的臨海領空 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9783.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9800.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
因為我們現在的軍力一定可以打下來對不對?一定可以打下來我們不管空對空飛彈、地對空、海對空都可以打下來不會像以前2016年那個雄生飛彈是吧?打到我們的漁船了對不對?不會這樣子了齁?不會不會我跟委員報告我自己是一個飛行員齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9809.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9818.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
在這個我畢業的時候是1981年是民國70年畢業的時候事實上我們這是非在中共的好來我就請教這個局長蔡局長這個講法就是我們當然應該這樣做但是講出來那種感覺就是你要來我就打你那種講保安就是這樣嘛我就第一期稍微如果萬一他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9836.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9837.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
國防部副部長副部長能不能話等號? |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9865.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9892.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這是個原則啦報告委員不能話等這是個原則原則聽不懂原則聽不懂原則聽不懂報告委員我跟您報告我是個飛行員我們的戰備規定非常清楚如果你今天到蛇海裡我必須要看你這個飛機比如說它的彈艙門是打開的如果它有帶彈而且它都有威脅你遠遠就看得到有帶彈我當然可以看到攔截的時候是就近攔截報告委員如果它有敵意的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9893.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9907.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這位我們飛行員來講他沒有敵意是搖擺記憶就表示說我要投誠或是把彈槍丟掉但是如果我警告社企他還是往這邊走他有帶彈那我就要視同威脅包括因為這都是博主不客氣把他打下來了我們會開槍示警全世界各國有用火焰彈的在全世界都有來來來等一下我再請教局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9917.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9937.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
國防部長的第一局說,國防部長說他睡不著,國防部長說他常常去恆生指揮所,這些加起來兩岸都不緊張嗎?請不緊張,請問你。對,我想國防部依照他的職責,對於台海的情勢做最壞劇本的想定跟預印,這是他的全責,我們都預印。你不要做最壞的想定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9938.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9944.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
對,我們就情報單位來講,我們看的是情報的正確度。所以經過今夏的事件,金門、廈門的海域的事件,到現在還沒解決,經過這個事情,兩岸的惡意流行沒有上升,沒有?我們都有在注意相關中的海事活動的狀態,目前看起來沒有特別的緊張狀況。那你打臉邱國正啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9962.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9963.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
在2月14號發生事件之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9979.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9983.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以他是有上去再下來嗎?是不是這個意思?他有一個相關活動的頻密程度,我們都有在注意來,我再請問你啊我知道這個一定要問你的你不敢承諾,你不敢回答你的上一任的局長叫陳明通 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10009.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10020.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
他公開說蔡英文任內不會打仗兩岸不會打仗你說你不敢接招你不要這樣講你Google一下Google一下蔡明彥說他不敢不敢這樣講我說兩岸會不會打仗不是會或不會一定要有一些相關的條件你Google一下就好了你Google一下我說我的我今天要特別Google就是賴斯堡問的還記得嗎就是你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10039.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10041.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
現在剩沒幾天嘛 對不對你可以講話了吧我話你之前一定不會打這樣可以講了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10058.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10062.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
會不會?我剛已經講沒有戰爭一觸即發的情質,目前真的沒有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10088.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10091.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
現在來看的話老公那裡啊現在推出一個新的名詞啊過去叫反毒促統現在叫打毒促統啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10105.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10128.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
他的打獨為什麽從反變成打?你要不要講一下?對,事實上反獨、觸同觸容跟反對外力介入一直是中共對台政策的主要的依據。打獨呢?打獨呢?一直就反獨,對。我就現在講打獨喔,他最新的叫打獨。對啊,我們相關的文字我們都有在注意啦。對。那也不要忘了他的和平統一也是現在有在不斷的定調。反獨跟打獨是一樣的是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10129.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10133.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
打獨跟反獨是一樣的我都認為這個打獨是針對賴清德來的因為他是務實台獨工作者所以針對他來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10144.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10169.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
對,我們剛剛也提到了中共對台政策還是壓拉兩手那可能在520前後他還是會有相關施壓動作來影響我們兩岸政策走向確實會有這樣的趨勢,我們會予以注意謝謝委員提醒這個不會說賴清德要上來之前特別加強這個力度,不會喔對阿,他這是長期一貫的做法另外我請教一個問題,那個大家很關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10170.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10195.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
委員會一直說不是他做的決定但是大家都認為一定是國安會議做的決定禁止副入團的出團請問有沒有開國安會議有沒有就團課的部分呢他涉及到有兩岸政策跟我們的觀光對我就問你有時間到啦有沒有開國安會議你告訴我就國安局的角度來講有爭取的我們意見我們會提供相關你有沒有參與兩個會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10197.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10225.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
就有諮詢到我們的話我們就會提供我們的意見你有沒有參加那個會議你要回答我啊我們的會議他有他自己的內部的機密等請問你這個有沒有開會有相關的都有一支有嘛就有會議嘛你在場嘛一再的討論你在場嘛業管機關包括交通部跟包括你有沒有在場我問你你有沒有在場相關的會議我們都有派人參加你有沒有在場我們都有派人參加就是你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10226.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10248.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
都有派人參加派人就派你自己蔡明彥但出席者是誰這是會議內部的資訊我沒有辦法對外揭露所以這個決定我就問你一個這個決定是國安會議的決定對吧這應該是一個跨部會討論的一個結果對嘛那就是國安會議但是我跟委員說明的是你不說這樣我就沒辦法了交通部跟陸委會也都有招會他們也都有招會對 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10250.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10271.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
邱大神、邱主委說他沒參加啦派人參加啦啊你的說起來就比較慕你娘可我看是有參加啦齁這個東西這個問題很嚴重啊這個問題引起賴清德很不好做事蔡英文現在放一炮給賴清德他很難做事因為所有的旅遊者都反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10273.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10280.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
很嚴重的事情這也是國安危機喔這是跨部會討論的結果我們尊重夜館單位的開放騎乘的規劃謝謝委員好吧這個最後還是問你啦你認為賴清的外來執政裡面兩岸可不可能來打仗不然我想怎麼樣來防止委員講的這件事情發生是我們國安團隊最優先的責任你要想辦法讓這個事情不會發生啦因為這是我們責任謝謝委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10304.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10305.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10635.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10637.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
接下來我們繼續開會接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在請鄭正前委員鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在請張祺凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10672.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10675.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝主席,請國安局長好,我們請蔡局長謝謝主席,張維文局長,你是樂觀派的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10687.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10705.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
大家為了這個國防部長的話好幾個人都睡不著覺了你說什麼到目前沒有情資顯示兩岸有升高是不是對沒有看到情資顯示說臺海戰爭一觸即發或是臺海緊張的情勢我先提供一個情資好不好很有名的學者趙春山 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10707.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10734.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
淡江大學的榮譽教授趙村他剛去中國大陸回來嘛對不對他說兩岸隨時可能開戰如果中國大陸現在打仗他也不意外這算不算重要情資我想我們的情資會根據各種的情資包括科技情報、人員情報各種的人員交流情報所彙整的結果大家要判斷的就是中共的整體的意圖另外就是判斷他的軍事的動作軍事的動作抱歉抱歉我不是插話啦我說你要不要邀 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10737.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10756.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
趙純燦來聊一下,了解一下他去大陸到底問到什麼事情各種的意見我們都會很重視現在2比1,現在國防部長跟趙純燦兩個,你是一票了現在民眾到底能不能好好睡覺我想就情報機關來講,我們重視的還是情資以情資,各位委員報告,這個情資可能包括中共的全面的軍事動態 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10757.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10776.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
海、空、電戰、火箭軍以及空防系統他有沒有相關的準備的動作有的話一定會有徵喉那這是我們情報機關在觀察兩岸情勢有沒有升高相關的判定的依據兩岸這個情勢大家大概觀察兩個很重要一個就是培諾希來台訪問之後看起來台海那個中線不見了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10779.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10790.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
最近從過年到現在有兩個大的事情就是你們下令交通部要禁止那個入客的那個組團組團到大陸去這個我們沒有下令等一下好好討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10792.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10793.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
一直開會嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10793.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10809.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
開了好幾次會嗎?這等一下我們好好討論好不好?我先把情勢講清楚這件事這件事對不對?禁止這個組團到大陸去然後呢金門這個碰撞這個翻船事件到現在都沒有了這兩個事情如果很具體去看 我知道說的裴若曦、賴玉堯 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10811.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10813.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
對,中國當然有希望做這樣的操作但我剛剛也有跟其他委員做說明從2月14號的事件發生之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10828.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10828.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以局長您的情勢有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10851.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10871.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
斷斷續續對不對不是斷斷續續是動態的在觀察之前他來了很多然後現在有點平和有點平和跟最近應該在開兩會有關係吧都有關係對不對對都有那應該還要注意開完兩會之後可能有沒有在升高他再來現在我們擔心的是你看他現在來了海警船連三千噸級的都來了他等於是派軍隊來了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10874.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10888.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
對不對,他等於派軍隊來的嘛現在這些小蝦米撞到大鯨魚這是一個大的問題第二個他如果常常來尤其兩會之後他又常常來欸金門那個縣縣建制其實那個整個海域可能就是真的會受到影響你有沒有做一個比較你剛剛一直在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10891.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10913.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對,所以我們對後續的一個觀察重點就在於中共所做的政策宣示後續有沒有一些常態化的動作這個是我們要關注的重點當然我們會做最快的想定來因應各種可能的狀況對,這是有必要的局長我今天特別跑來質詢是因為兩會完之後一直到520 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10914.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10940.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
是一個最敏感的一個時機點,然後講也是一個最危險的時機點,同不同意?對,我們要保持高度警戒的一個關鍵的時機點,沒有錯,保持高度警戒。高度的警戒我就要先問啊,你之前我剛講那兩個重要的事件裡面,國安局做了怎麼樣的一個建議?你剛才承認說一直在開會嘛,不管是你去或者是派人去,國安單位這兩個事情,現在看起來這兩個事件導致的結果就是兩岸那個二一螺旋一直在往上走嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10941.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10969.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
國安局對這兩個事件當初的建議是什麼就國安單位來講我再次強調對於夜館政府機關他對於要不要開放相關的團客的規劃他有他的期程這個我們尊重但是就國安局的立場來講我們會針對中共的整體對台政策以及他對台灣的各種的壓拉的手法也會做整體的分析讓決策單位在評估的時候可以有一個比較全貌的瞭解跟掌握這是我們的職責你們中和評估過了所以你給了 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10970.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10976.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所謂的其他的相關的部位作為一個建議事實上對我們來看可能不是建議啦如果你們沒有點頭的話我這個淨團店也不會成啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10979.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11003.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
包括這個金門這個碰撞這個翻船這個事件如果不是國安局有不一樣的意見其他的包括海巡我相信也不會是這樣的動作沒有國安局是政府團隊的議員那決策過程當中會提出我們在國安情報上面的角度讓各單位一起來討論局長你們非常重要所以我才要很明確的問到底在這兩個事件裡面你們沒有給了什麼很明確的指令或者很明確重要的這個指示 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11003.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11012.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
有提供相關的分析給各單位來做整體的參考如果因為這兩個事件處理不好導致整個惡意螺旋往上走大家第一個想到還是國安局啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11014.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11037.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
國安局跟陸委會啊所以我要很明確知道國安局給了什麼意見你到目前沒有給我答案喔對啊那內部的開會我們沒有辦法對外揭露這我背負著國家機密情報的等級這是機密嗎至少就是說怎麼處理這應該是國人要知道的啦國人要不要睡得著就是在判斷國安局長跟整個國安單位能不能讓我們處理得很好讓我們睡得著覺目前看起來就是二一螺旋一直在往上走啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11037.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11057.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
國安局到底希望兩岸關係是平和的還是希望他繼續當然當然這也是剛剛跟其他委員報告的怎麼樣來防止兩岸的情勢升高是我們國安單位重中之重的責任局長我講一個比較重的話你期待是兩岸和平當然每一個人都期待兩岸和平你剛剛講你最大的責任就是兩岸不要打起來對可是你看現在看到的狀況是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11058.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11085.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
國防部長講 國防部長講睡不著覺了第二個你從很實際的狀況去分析現在確實兩岸是緊繃的嘛連一個金門的撞船這個我們不要講撞船啦碰撞好了翻船這個事件到現在都沒有了啊現在旅行社還有很多人來陳情啊欸為什麼要打自己的旅行社M503有因為你做了這個決定國安局做了這個決定或者是我們整體政府做了這個決定M503現在有改變嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11087.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11112.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
有改變嗎?我還是說明一下那個國防部的部分他基於他的職責然後把相關的情況做最壞的想定跟預應這是國防部的權責那我們也尊重邱部長對外的一個發言以及表述他的一個心境心緒這個我們都予以尊重但是就情報單位來講我們重視的還是要有情資我才能夠跟委員報告現在的狀況是怎麼樣那我跟委員說明的情況就是依照目前的情資局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11114.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11134.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這兩個重要的事件你第一個你是在抗議他的M503嘛對不對現在這個事情有因為我們做的這個動作有改變嗎沒有對不對第二個你說他們的團不來這個有改變嗎也沒有然後呢兩岸的二一樓前一直往上走這跟你本來希望兩岸的和平降溫達到效果是相反的欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11136.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11164.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
整體各部會都還是有一個相關的評估啦那兩岸的互動它是一個動態的過程那老實講臺海情勢穩定對於各方包括對岸來講都是符合他的利益的老實講我老實跟委員報告過程當中我們還是有看到對岸在做一些風險的控管這我們還是有相關的情質局長我要提醒的是我看到新聞是說從顧立雄到你你們國安團隊是留下來了可能要恭喜你們可是我剛剛是在提醒的光是最近這兩件重大的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11165.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11189.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
看大的都沒有達到我們讓兩岸降溫可以交流沒有,都是往上走的可能要好好再回去檢討一下當初國安局或我們整個團隊到底為什麼要做這個決定這到底是一個對的決定還是不對如果問題要檢討就要趕快去改好不好另外我又還有時間有限我趕快檢聽這個東西520之前是一個最敏感可能也是最危險的時候國安局怎麼確保讓我們睡得著覺有沒有什麼因應措施有沒有準備好 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11189.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11214.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
對,就這個部分來講,我們國安團隊,國安局這邊指導統合協調有11個情報單位跟4同情報單位,我們會嚴密的來關注中國大陸內部的還有對外的行為的動態。第二個,我們也會跟國際的友盟來加強相關的情資交流,判斷中共的一個相關的意圖跟可能的威脅台灣的動作。局長,我們能稍微具體一點點,你看那天他們在問國防部長都已經講到第一級飛機的這個事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11214.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11240.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我今天問你更具體一點點你們有沒有設想過現在兩岸緊張這個關係已經進入到準戰爭的狀態說萬一有一個擦槍走火我們怎麼應應對我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了對於可能台海可能出現了各種的劇本那各種的劇本它會因為不同的環境跟因素產生不同的劇本這部分國安團隊跟國防部都有做相關的一個預應的方案特別接下來的漢光演習就是要去推演相關的劇本 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11242.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11266.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
臺灣演習會推演這個劇?對當然當然所以都是有準備的我們有好幾套劇本裡面包括可能進入實戰狀態或者是有擦撞的時候擦槍走火這個都是在我們有準備的範圍之內當然除了紙上的作業規劃以外還要再進入電腦兵棋的拖延再進入到實兵的一個演訓才能知道有沒有哪些環節可以再強化我們的防衛的能力謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11268.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11291.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
就是回去檢討一下為什麼這兩個事情是這樣的一個處理處理到目前為止M503這個問題還是在的陸團他們也沒有組團來然後兩岸是整個敵意是上升的這是第一個點拜託一下想像一下不要這個國安團隊留下來了結果讓人民還是提心吊膽的沒有和平然後看起來兩岸還是衝突二一螺旋一直往上走第二個520之前各種狀況都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11292.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11294.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
接下來請吳宗憲委員上台質詢請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11319.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11332.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11334.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11356.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11360.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11378.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於作為維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11380.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11381.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上? |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11400.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11425.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11431.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11457.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
來 我跟你們說 民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思 這個才叫做住所好 那我們再來看 什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號 另外還有很多個啦 我就不講了居所的意思就是 你要有居住的事實 只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍 我長期住那裡就是居所 那不叫住所 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11457.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11465.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11466.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11490.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃不只是針對賴副總統長期以來我們的維安對象我們的駐居所的定義針對居所……不行不行這樣講你們一直說你們依法行政你現在跟我說說那一套我聽不進去法律上面駐所民法20條規定居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所那你今天針對的這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11492.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11493.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11512.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11527.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11528.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11529.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
居所特別提到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11545.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11545.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11576.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11603.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
你今天 所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過有住過你不要跟我說住兩年那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11604.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11628.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
如果是受維安者的住所或居所你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽我可以不要去維安你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷要不要維安只有專業的判斷如果是他的住所你也可以不要去維安是不是一般來講既然他是住所是長期居住的我們就一定要派製我們的維安好那我再請教你那你們憑什麼後來撤掃 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11630.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11647.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一天我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11648.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11660.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那太離譜了啦 法律不能這樣做啦報告局長 你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過 某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11661.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11677.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分辨的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11680.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11706.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的危安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有危安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11708.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11731.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11732.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11755.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11757 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11764.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
撤哨沒有 這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉 我說一句重話不好意思 不要得罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11766.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11794.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
公務員是國家的不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有並沒有這個不是只有適用在那沒關係啦至少我跟你說至少跟局長說居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11794.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11820.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違安對象同等的一個違安待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11821.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11829.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我們就依法行政我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11831.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11857.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11859.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11883.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11885.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11910.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11912.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11939.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11940.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11960.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11961.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11986.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我自己前一關做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11988.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12007.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我相信一個副總統不會去對這維安這麼小的事情他會去知道這件事像別人說你讓他背了一個黑鍋這邊我只是這樣講居所絕對不是這定義千萬不要拿別人這麼做以往這麼做今天我就可以這麼做法律不是這樣玩的啦尊重委員的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12009.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12021.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12030.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12053.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
就剛剛委員提的部分如果是這樣我們甚至可以要求在過去因為現在反正已經撤哨了那是不是應該要提供過去居住的是哪些時間因為特勤人員只要去行使職權的時候其實通常會有記錄的就這個部分我們希望在委員會的時候跟委員討論我們還是據實以告好不好我們會有做這些要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12059.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12063.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這個局長也請準備一下好 謝謝那接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12065.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12070.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
王宏威委員、徐欣盈委員、高金素美委員、吳思瑤委員、鍾佳斌委員、蔡易瑜委員、李坤澤委員、鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12093.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12112.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
今天登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員、林益君委員、王定宇委員、黃仁委員還有王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12114.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12129.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
請相關的機關以書面與兩週內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供本日會議到此結束散會謝謝 |