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| 委員名稱 |
陳菁徽 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:27:54 - 09:48:23 |
| 影片長度 |
1229 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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1191.76034375 |
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SPEAKER_02 |
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1191.77721875 |
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1197.10971875 |
| transcript.pyannote[245].speaker |
SPEAKER_04 |
| transcript.pyannote[245].start |
1198.03784375 |
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1218.27096875 |
| transcript.pyannote[246].speaker |
SPEAKER_02 |
| transcript.pyannote[246].start |
1211.90909375 |
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1212.73596875 |
| transcript.pyannote[247].speaker |
SPEAKER_06 |
| transcript.pyannote[247].start |
1218.60846875 |
| transcript.pyannote[247].end |
1221.71346875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
4.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
主席、各位委員、各位官員,我也想請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
12.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
36.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
65.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
66.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
84.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
106.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
108.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
128.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
133.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
148.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
149.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
165.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
部長因為我接下來要問你的問題等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
174.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
175.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
192.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
206.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以我有透過何柏惟秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道是這樣子結果在李雨祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
210.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
214.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們有發這樣的公務嗎沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎有有有那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把您的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
230.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
249.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢委員我們絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個問題我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
257.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
258.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
304.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
305.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?勞動部的同仁你調去哪裡?懇請委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
332.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
347.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
349.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了秘書您們個別通知您們回答基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
374.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
397.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
399.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
410.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
413.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
437.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他都可以做出那樣子的事確實從這個事件我們也可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項他就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
441.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
459.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
461.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
489.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來齁我們也想請這個權序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
490.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
503.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
532.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
555.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
557.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
562.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
564.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
588.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
589.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
605.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
607.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
635.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
636.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
636.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好,這裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
665.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
666.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
684.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
700.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
706.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
722.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法它有一些措施規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
723.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
750.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那雖然目前沒有罰則但是我們實務上如果有違反的都可以依照公務人考機法規去做相關的處理考機法規的處理譬如說有懲處或者是考機評定的時候做相關的處理但是沒有辦法讓他停職嗎對不對目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
751.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
766.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
768.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
787.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移付懲戒那移付懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
790.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
803.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以你的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
806.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
829.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
830.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
830.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
報告． |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
856.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
873.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
委員我們實務上的處理如果是機關首長涉及的話會給他的上級機關來處理這個跟性平的處理一樣如果是首長因為首長的考核權限是在上一級 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
875.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
892.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
請您看一下左邊這個表假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
897.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
923.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
924.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
930.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
954.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
978.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做申訴處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
981.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
997.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
之後陳昭之委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
999.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1017.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1018.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1038.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回覆剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁結果呢最後回來的報告是寫說噢經過我們的了解他還是給他放假囉而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益這樣就算了欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1039.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1053.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那館長已經表達會自主檢討、積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算了因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待、精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1061.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1075.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
是報告委員這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1079.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1105.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告要第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個霸調最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1107.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1124.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
同樣他在疾管署就像一個土皇帝許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了疾管署提供相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1125.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1127.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查多久可以有結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1143.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1166.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1172.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1174.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主席最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1198.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1198.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
明天可以請教部長還有機關署 |
| IVOD_ID |
157096 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157096 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-9 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-20T09:27:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-20T09:48:23+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |