| IVOD_ID |
15703 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15703 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T08:32:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T12:41:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:08:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd73b8a2c1b37799c1d705804c03e547953be8d109af184be4843c3f4b6d08d6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:13 - 12:41:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
0.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
本集完 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1007.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1007.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1072.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1075.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1505.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1505.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1683.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1699.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好,我們現在繼續開會現在介紹在場的委員徐富奎委員我們介紹官員數位發展部部長唐鳳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1701.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1726.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
數位策略師蔡壽泉師長任性建設師鄭明忠師長資源管理師牛信仁師長數位政府師王承明師長民主網絡師張肇起副師長多元創新師莊明芬師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1728.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1738.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主計處李錫東處長秘書處陳仲山處長資訊處吳英俊處長人事處莫永榮處長政風處陳春信副處長法治處張學文處長數位產業署呂振華署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1755.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1781.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
自動安全署謝翠娟署長國家自動安全研究院何全德院長本日進行數位發展部業務報告及112年度出國預算辦理及出國預算辦理成效及113年年度預計效益的專題報告現在請唐部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1794.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1796.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
請稍等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1822.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1839.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你就直接往下捲就好了或按空白也可以好OK那我們就開始但最近其實大家都看到我們所主管的好比像說綜合性的購物就是線上的大型電商 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1840.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1861.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
已經連續5個月都沒有被165列為高風險的賣場也就是說我們一年多前剛成立的時候幾乎大家都會看到高風險賣場裡面有很多這種電商然後你買了之後就會接到這個說什麼分期付款解除等等這個問題可以說是已經初步解決了那裡面很重要的就是我們輔導這些電商來導入所謂的銀馬技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1864.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1890.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以在物流上面就不會再把你的電話號碼等等各自去透露給這些物流的朋友所以無論是像Momo、博克萊、Friday購物、Coupon、蝦皮等等都已經導入這個技術那PC Home跟東森購物目前也都在導入中應該很快了但是當然大家對我們有更多的期許好比像說如果大家去看165的高風險賣場會發現那個Facebook |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1893.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1919.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個大型廣告平台平台也還在上面那這部分雖然目前為止都是經濟部主管但是我們也已經主動跟經濟部說經濟部也初步同意把這些大型的這個網路廣告平台也移播給我們讓我們來主管那為什麼呢就是因為我們有提一個電子簽章法的修法那也已經送到了立法院目的就是說之後大家如果再看到上面有那種投資貓蟲名人的那種廣告的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1920.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1939.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那就可以運用這個電子簽章法用一個效力很強的數位簽章去進行這方面的身份確認所以他如果以後不叫這個名字就不能再打著這個名字來進行廣告那這部分我們會盡快的來跟各界說明怎麼做然後也很希望立委們支持我們的新的電子簽章法 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1940.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1953.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
除了這個就是我們自己主管的之外我們也積極的協助檢警調所以像檢警調、攬組這種詐騙的域名、一夜市的詐騙、假電商網站等等我們部成立前一年大概採不到3000件 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1954.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1971.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們部成立之後就加速流線化這個做法所以去年一整年就高達3萬多件所以即使你看到這種詐騙的網址點下去你只會看到一個被165扣押的這個警示聲明那這樣子的話也很有效的去阻斷這個詐騙我們再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1976.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1998.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
除了剛剛提到這兩個業別之外我們也是第三方支付的主管機關第三方支付大家了解到雖然可能有上萬家在公司登記的時候說可以經營這個項目因為不是特許實際在經營的其實就那麼40幾家我們現在就是透過一個能量登錄的方式去要求他們都要去做法尊、反洗錢等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1998.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2022.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
的這個登錄讓我們查核如果不這樣子做或者沒有做好的話那金管會那邊就不讓他們拿到虛擬賬號所以這是一個聯防的概念那同樣遊戲點數現場遊戲業者也是我們所主管所以我們也可以看到從高峰一個月大概1200多件遊戲點數詐騙現在已經降到了200件左右也是有一個及時攔阻的聯防機制再往下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2024.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2032.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那除此之外還有一個狀態是說大家有時候會接到這個簡訊說台水啊或台電啊、繳費啊、按什麼網址等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2032.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2056.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為這樣子的狀態我們需要從源頭來處理所以同樣的我們推出了111這個平臺目前已經78個機關透過共同供應契約以及採購接近2000萬則的額度實際發送出去大概570萬則年底大概會有一億則所以現在大家如果再看到臺水、臺電等等那從111發送你就知道那個是真的那其他的當然就是假的了再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2058.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2077.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
除了剛剛提到這個數位信任防詐之外我們也負責數位網路的韌性就是受到攻擊要能夠及時回復而且從攻擊當中學習教訓所以無論是如果是海岸碰到一些問題我們透過微波衛星來備援又或者是說如果有一些地方的災害等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2077.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2105.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
導致三個基地台的業者有兩個或一個發生問題的話我們都透過像災難漫遊等等的方式然後也透過就是警消確定頻寬的方式來支援我們警消同仁再往下那當然我們不是只是說這個衛星通訊只用在我們自己政府的這個任性備援事實上因為我們也已經核准了包含龍華、艾克康、台亞、中華電等等的這個商用的衛星通訊的這個代理的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2106.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2113.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以應該很快到年底我們就會看到這些他們合作的衛星公司也可以推出這些商用的解決方案再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2114.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2141.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那剛才提到災難漫遊那這邊有一個示意圖意思就是說如果發生比較嚴重的災害那導致我們三大電信有兩大都不能使用的話那至少這個防救災人員以及之後慢慢擴增到就是當地的居民他不論本來的手機是哪一個基地台他還是可以透過災難漫遊的方式能夠連線出去那在這個過程裡面當然大家可以用的頻寬會受限但是我們就好像畫一條路肩出來一樣保障頻寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2143.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2166.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
給消防署、警消人員等等。當然大家也了解6GHz包含Wi-Fi 6E、未來的Wi-Fi 7我們現在也都已經開放了如果是有用iPhone Pro或Pro Max的話應該這幾天是已經開通了所以我們在未來也會持續的去準備這個評估然後確保說我們跟國際的規範能夠取得一致再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2168.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2179.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
除此之外我們也跟衛福部合作我們也加入了行政院的生權小組所以說在以前就是政府機關的網站、APP等等它很多是建制之後受到這個生權團體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2180.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2202.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
以及意見,然後才慢慢變成完整的無障礙。我們現在就讓它在建制一開始規劃的期間就能夠無障礙。大家如果有領過六千的話會看到說那是我們新的這一套設計方法做出來的那使用起來是非常的便利。那我們也把它變成公共建設所以之後未來幾年不管地方中央政府要發放現金等等的這些做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2202.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2223.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
就不用再從頭做建制跟測試可以直接讓我們的公共城市去使用再往下那我們剛剛提到這些做法其實國際上面都相當願意來學習那光是說我們透過全民參與來幫助我們的國科會的這個AI模型台德把它調整成更符合我們台灣當地的需求的這個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2224.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2243.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
就包含OpenAI的共同創辦人：好幾組人：國際上都很希望來跟我們學習所以也因為這樣子的關係我們接到了非常非常多包含雙邊交流、國際組織以及我們所用的這些程式如果是公共程式能不能夠分享出來等等的需求也讓我們拓展了新的數位外交的做法再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2245.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2264.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
當然我們也是open data以及資料自主的這個平台mydata的主管機關有很多的申辦的服務好比像說俗稱良民證的這個形式記錄之前都是要零貴清辦現在就透過線上mydata這個平台辦理然後郵寄到家等等我們協助了非常多的這個線上服務644項都能夠透過這樣的方式來達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2268.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2289.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那除此之外呢大家也發現好比像說大家的這個有個叫健康數據公益運動數據公益運動數據公益平台那就是在全台灣的這些運動的這個場域等等大家如果願意捐出已經不含個資的這些數據統計數據分析讓大家能夠更容易的去找出說怎麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2289.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2303.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
提示能狀況怎麽樣子情況的人用怎麽樣的運動比較容易達成效果達到全民運動的這個公益那我們會持續透過我們已經推出的這些指引來強化隱私然後也來促進更多這種公益的數據應用再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2304.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2326.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那剛也提到說我們已經組成了AI評測中心那從國科會的這個台德模型開始我們也會把各種語言模型的應用來確保它能夠符合我們這個就是社會所能夠接受的準確性啊無害啊等等的這些基本的要求那剛也有提到電子簽章法也是因應AI衝擊非常重要的因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2326.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2352.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
和成影音和成頁眼和成證件其實都是非常容易的事情那只有數位簽章因為當初發的時候是有一個很強的身份認證那才能夠是確保說不會這個AI換臉就很容易冒充給別人那這些聯邦的方式我們也都及時的透過我們的第三方支付等等跟金管會跟內政部跟吉寶等等這個協作的平臺只要他們這個提出具體的需求我們就提供技術上面的支援再來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2354.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2375.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
除此之外,我們也透過像替代史等等的方式去確保說即使本科系不一定是資訊資管的朋友也能夠進入數位轉型的行列那已經有2400多位跨域的人才那也有190多位國際的人才那國際上面其實現在有非常多的這些數位的人才覺得台灣是他非常認同他願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2376.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2377.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
獲得數位領域的就業金卡。已發了261張。再往下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2392.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2413.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在這個過程裏面,我們也帶動國內的這些資訊服務業者。舉例來說,像我們透過雲市集的計劃,就已經帶動超過6萬家次,大概5萬多家中小事業,尤其是比較沒有資本而去投資IT的中小事業來媒合國內的自服廠商,其實已經達到一個很好階段性的效果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2414.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2428.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當然未來在實際的需求像高靈科技、長照或者是一些HIS系統等等就是醫療相關的系統我們都有跟衛福部繼續去凝聚這樣子雲市集的能量在這些垂直的場域裡面再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2429.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2455.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
剛剛提到衛福部當然社家署我們也跟他們合作有個手語視訊轉譯的服務目前已經大概建制差不多完成了是一個公共城市那這個社家署之後會拿去營運就是確保說我們即時的所謂打電話給聽語障的朋友或聽語障的朋友打電話給你的這個流程能夠透過這個數位的技術很容易的來完成當然也包含高齡學習運動數據公寓這個剛剛有提過再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2458.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2483.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
在資安的方面我們資通安全管理法我們的部會已經通過我們布板的草案那應該在這幾天就會送到行政院來審核那裡面非常重要的就是去確保說在重大資安事件發生的時候不會只靠那個機關的4名或2名或1名資安專職人員而是我們可以透過這個調度的方法讓所有旁邊的這些資安專職人員都能夠來支援這個重大事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2484.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2502.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
當然聯訪也不是只是在我們公部門裏面我們也透過資安院拓增了我們對民間的就是TW3CCL的服務的能量那我們也邀請了剛剛提到了18個國家的朋友一起來台做跨國的攻防演練那我們也爭取去參加他們國家的實地的實兵演練再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2504.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2518.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以在這個過程裏面我們不管是攔截這個惡意的這個電子郵件或者是一些就是資安供給或者是說我們協助這些關鍵基礎設施去提升他們工業控制領域的資安防護這個都相當的有成果再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2520.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2539.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
當然在資安的培訓裡面人才是非常非常重要是必不可少的那剛剛提到的這個調度其實也是一個以戰待訓的概念那包含在待遇上面我們也特別去有這個增值加級然後在人才的來源上面我們也跟考試院協調已經成功的增設了資安考科再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2540.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2562.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
最後跟大家分享就是說我們的基本概念叫做全民數位韌性那在這個社會發展上面我們不能夠因為數位發展所以就把比較弱勢的或比較小型的事業拋在後面使所有人都要一起數位轉型那在這個過程裡面我們就透過我們的數位產業署去培養大家值得信任的像剛剛提到的電子簽章這些雲端服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2562.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2580.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
等等的這些新型的發展因為數位是跨國界的所以只要發展出來解決實際的社會問題在全世界就有商機在這個過程裏面當然這個抵禦、資安的威脅我們做了非常多事來保證不會出事這個部分就是我們資安署的工作以上是我們的業務報告謝謝大家的聆聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2587.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2602.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
接著報告第二個那我先補充介紹在場的委員廖謙祥委員黃建豪委員林國成委員請部長繼續報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2604.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2619.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
好 謝謝謝謝趙薇委員先進那我就接著報告我們就是112年度去年的出國預算辦理成效還有我們今年度的預期效應那書面相信大家都收到了所以我就是就書面做一個簡要的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2620.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2640.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
大家知道我們數位部已成立全世界就是跟數位有關係的我們就要開始建立聯絡特別是在資安聯防上面所以我們去年的很重要的成效就是去確保說這些有紅隊藍隊這個能量的國家透過他們國家派代表隊或者他們的民間或者他們的法人等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2641.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2656.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
都能夠來跟我們進行演訓這個是最重要的那我們能夠用線上的大概有18項大概都是用線上辦理但是特別是在資安工坊以及在經貿談判上面基本上對方就會說一定要實體那這個時候我們就會去編列出國的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2658.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2675.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那剛剛提到美國捷克等等18個國家來台灣這個他們也要變出國預算來進行工房演練那我們也邀請了包含愛沙尼亞、澳洲、阿爾巴尼亞等等來跟我們分享他們最新的資安的做法跟政策那在這個過程裡面其實資安產業也非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2675.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2697.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
自然產業只要跟國際的標準接軌我們這邊自然產業的廠商就可以很容易賣到國外的市場所以就包含這些標準像CNMC標準所在的美國國家標準技術局我們已經來回互訪了相當多次那這些自然的大廠我們也是第一時間在他們推動什麼標準的時候我們也加入這個標準的討論的程序這個也是非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2698.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2724.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
剛剛提到衛星的部分因為我們非常需要低軌衛星在我們對外海欄碰到狀況的時候能夠及時的切換所以我就親自到英國拜會OneWeb因為OneWeb的特別股黃金股是在英國政府手上所以我們就要跟他談包含供應鏈安全等等的這些做法我們也很成功的談到了現在不只是對於我們自己的任性需求也包含商用的需求OneWeb應該今年年底前可以來滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2726.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2755.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
除此之外當然剛剛提到電商自服業者帶著150家到各個國家去進行這個交流以及去確保說國際上面現在對於隱私保護的這個強度那像英國大概都很願意跟我們就這個隱私保護數位成長等等這種跨境的數據傳輸來進行談判那這部分其實已經是在台銀ETP的這個談判進程裏面了那除此之外當然大家也非常關心說為什麼臺灣作為一個高度開放的民主國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2756.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2776.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
大家都非常擔心這個AI的偽造去破壞社會的互信然後會打亂這個選舉的公信力等等那在臺灣似乎到目前為止是有克服這些問題那我們這些克服的方法的分享我們也透過像自由線上聯盟就是包含美國國務卿彬肯等等各國的這些外交跟數位首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2776.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2791.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們也是實體的見面來分享這些做法除此之外當然我們也跟一些新興的友好的國家好像說立陶宛等等實際上面測試了電子簽章的互簽互認等等這個對於我們的實質外交都非常的有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2792.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2813.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
除此之外,今年因為從國發會移撥一些經貿談判的業務過來剛提到的臺英、臺澳盟、臺內的數位經濟論壇等等所以今年會更加努力去確保說我們在談判的時候能夠爭取我們這邊的廠商的權益而且確保我們這邊是能夠扣合國際的標準,不會是我們發展到一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2814.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2834.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
發現國際標準換了那這樣子就對我們的產業會有不良的影響那在我們的預期效益方面除了就是繼續擴大資安的聯防之外現在也特別重要一件事情就是我們的線上透過這種包含政府跟非政府組織都有在裡面的這種大型的我們叫Multi-Stateholder多方利害關係人組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2835.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2864.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
包括 W3C, ICANN, FIDO等組織都可以讓我們在那邊能夠平起平坐的去跟各國的相當於數位部長的這樣子的人物去進行討論以及去進行我們民主方面在資安跟韌性上面的聯訪那詳細的這個break down就是在附件裡面有執行情形一覽表那我就不在這邊唸細節那很歡迎大家如果待會有興趣的話可以透過質詢的方式我們來加入意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2874.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2889.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
現在要進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2892.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2913.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
各委員若有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診現在暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位徐護魁委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2924.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2930.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
麥克風、麥克風謝謝主席,有請部長請部長你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2936.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2959.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
部長 這個謝謝就是您帶領部裡面針對這個打詐這一塊做了很多的努力但是我們在從數據上看起來確實從106年到目前為止不管是打詐的金額跟建樹還是有逐年攀升的一個趨勢那我想包含我自己的辦公室也接到不少我們鄉親的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2960.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2988.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
陳情的案件。包括我自己在基層在跑的時候我們很多的鄉親都在關心我們未來怎麼樣去防堵打詐還有加重罰則的一個處分的部分那我想這也是很多我們的基層的鄉親在關心的一個問題那我想部長您自己認為這個目前打詐案件只欠一個電子簽章的一個三堵的一個程序那我自己個人當然願意配合來修法那這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2989.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3006.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
部長怎麼看這個問題?是,謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明我們是電子簽章法的主管機關那剛才也提到網路廣告的這些線上大型平台像Facebook等等雖然目前還在經濟部但經濟部已經原則同意移給我們只要這兩個都完成我們就可以要求說 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3007.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3031.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
在他們上這些他們要投資廣告他說他是某個名人嘛那現在的問題是說他自己說他名字跟這個名人一樣或很像但是並沒有辦法去驗證說他是不是真的同名同姓那透過數位簽章就是一個高等級好像硬件證明這樣的電子簽章除非他真的跟我同名同姓不然應該是不能夠冒用我的名義喔那好就算他改了名字跟我同名同姓那如果被發現是詐騙他的這個簽章也會被撤銷喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3032.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3043.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好部長那因為我們那個電子簽章的那個打仗打仗成效會定位在未來刊登網路廣告需要簽贊這部分但是我們在這次修法沒有看到任何的一個規劃那針對這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3047.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3064.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
您有提到說希望政府機關能夠有一個三年的緩衝期但是外界會認為太久了那如果說我們把時間壓縮在一年可不可行好謝謝委員詢問剛才我提到投資廣告的這個依據就是不是在我們部是在因為投資是金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3065.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3089.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
有一個投信投估法那在警政署、刑事局有一個執行的這個要點所以其實不需要再去立一個新的投信投估法用既有的投信投估法改這個辦法就可以讓數位前長能夠進來那剛剛委員有問到說政府機關讓人民洽工的時候是不是三年之後都要能夠用電子文件等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3090.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3113.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這個跟我們用來請Facebook或者Google防詐這兩個是兩件事情就這個的日落期跟這個是不一定有關係的但是當然我們是很希望說各部會都能夠加速進行只是各部會告訴我們說有時候要升級一些系統等等他需要經過一個預算編列核定的程序那個程序本身就可能要一年多所以是因為這樣的關係我們才寫三年當然能更快是更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3116.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3132.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
要讓民間的企業都能夠使用這個電子簽章大概推供你們預估要多久的時間?我們之前已經有協調現在有一個叫做行動自然人憑證就好像自然人憑證也可以做簽章我們簽公約都用這個但是放在手機裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3133.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3157.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個普及的速度就會比較快因為它是安裝一個APP就好的事情那這件事情也很感謝內政部已經同意各行各業包含民間的公司等等只要適用各自法大家都適用各自法就可以來申請這個行動自然憑證的運用所以目前在法規上面已經沒有任何阻止民間來跟內政部申請接下來大概都是一些技術方面的問題所以我們是很期待說只要三讀通過電子槍法給數位簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3160.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3165.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
推定為本人簽簽的這個法律效力我們這個民間技術的配套在那個時候大概就可以ready |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3166.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3192.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
部長我想這個部分我們整個社會的期待還是希望能夠加快這個打詐的這個防堵的速度然後針對這個相關的罰則處分的部分也應該加強化那這部分是不是請部長這邊能夠也帶領我們的同仁加快速度那另外針對我們屏東縣這個老年人口這個已經有20%的比例這個高於全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3193.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3221.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我知道我們數位部也一直在針對所謂一個遠距交取的醫療的部分有在努力那針對這個部分因為我們屏東有很大的地方是所謂一個遠向跟一個偏向那為了針對這個遠距怎麼樣協助屏東縣落實這個醫療資源的一個處理的上面請部長這個做一個說明好的謝謝委員我們當然剛剛提到我們跟衛福部有非常多的合作所以至少確保說 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3222.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3223.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
有些業者他的這個涵蓋率已經到達97%了 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3243.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3261.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那如果需要詳情的話是不是我們司長這個再跟大家說明一下好,不過因為我們屏東有一個狀況就是我們的所謂的網路系統的一個穩定性的問題啦那因為我們目前屏東還是以4G網路為主那這部分我們怎麼樣去協助我們的業者來做處理好,謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3264.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3285.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
今年113年,我們針對5G,屏東的台數已經到十幾台。就像我們剛剛部長說的,偏鄉會拉到96%,5G的涵蓋。這邊因為所有包括醫療,包括教育都要靠這個傳輸,不管新網還是固網。所以這邊也請委員放心,我們會積極的拉,包括一些特定的偏鄉地區的鄉鎮,我們都會加強。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3288.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3313.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
對,但是我們從我們的預算書裡面看得到我們112年有編列所謂的一個遠距離流的一個預算但是113年沒有編列請問是為什麼沒有編列?有很多是我們跟衛福部討論之後我們這邊會提大的公共建設那衛福部會在裡面有一塊但是這個雖然我們是做蒐整還有資料的互通等等但是那個部分預算的編列跟執行會要看衛福部那一本 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3314.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3331.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好,那我想遠距交學也必須要我們部裡面跟外部部來跨部會整合那這部分還是請部長這邊多費心因為畢竟我們屏東縣這個府院遼闊非常需要這個相關的醫療的資源整合那這部分再麻煩部長一下沒問題,我們全力支持好 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3332.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3354.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
時間因素最後一個大家現在關心所謂一個數位身份證的一個問題那我想目前全世界有128個國家在使用我們的晶片數位身份證那之前我們也一直努力在推動那請教部長目前的問題出在哪裡先看委員報告就是國際組織統計那128裡面是有把我們算在裡面因為我們的自然憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3355.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3370.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
當然以及現在行動自然憑證是算在能夠做簽章的這個晶片的身份那之前的主要的差別只是說有沒有一個獨立的個資機關以及內政部有沒有一個專門的法律來處理說如果每個人都可以讓他選擇說 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3371.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3394.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
要發有簽證能力的晶片身份證．或者當然他也可以選擇不領的這件事情有沒有一個法律來規範以及有沒有一個獨立的各自會我們看各國大概也都是最近就是有獨立的各自會然後來進行這方面的判斷所以我想我們在技術上面我們透過像行動自然憑證這個目前完全是自願的願意來申請的就有那至於全面的任何政策我想都是之後包含跟各自會進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3396.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3397.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
徐委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3439.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3442.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好,主席請唐部長請唐部長來,唐部長當然你的業務啊說實在的剛成立然後質疑業務的問題確實是很專業但是你的業務也不是當機立斷可以看到成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3462.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3485.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
但是當然鬧得風風雨雨啊也就是業務的不章出國平凡這等等那當然這個我想部長有部長的做法那當然每一個單位我們都基本上是尊重但是部長我現在要跟你談有稍微一種政治性的東西是請說二月份的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3486.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3511.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我從來沒有看過利盈媒體攻擊利盈的政務官這不是只有一篇所以我說實在的我感覺讓我直接覺得部長是得罪什麼人那為什麼通常是利盈媒體應該要正面宣導結果利盈的媒體是打部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3512.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3520.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
當然我們將心比心如果是真的那沒話講如果是假的那就是假新聞所以部長我說實在我用一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3526.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3550.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我要問你一個問題到底你針對這件問題你認為有沒有證書因素謝謝委員讓我們有時間回答我先很感謝自由時報特別如果您看右邊的你就回答我的問題就好了你什麼不好那個都不要講因為我要代替我要代替你評法把問題把它找出來你有沒有覺得有證書因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3552.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3580.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
因為要分兩個層面嘛一個是說像剛剛委員所提到有一些我們的做法要一陣子才看得到成效這個時候就會有政治壓力好比叫說民間對於詐騙覺得說我們主管的地方OK啊但是這些廣告平台怎麼不去管呢等等這個是政治壓力沒有錯啊那這個部分很感謝自由給我們版面去進行回答這第一個那第二個當然如同委員所說的就是我們這個有則改之無則加冕嘛有一些我們看起來也覺得好像跟事實蠻不符的啦說真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3580.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3587.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這一部分我們也透過平衡報導的方式我們自己也發新聞稿來澄清。好啦,我給部長一個建議啦。事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3588.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3596.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我必須要提醒部長在這個部分我為什麼要用我執行的時間讓你去做解釋其實我感覺到好的人才當然不能讓人家猛黑啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3615.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3635.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
台灣話講一句話因為你聽得懂嘛人死老賠後死老賣所以這些東西不能因為因為這比較敏感的就是利盈媒體修領利盈的官員這一點我比較納悶的因為我從來沒有看過沒有看過另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3636.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3664.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這裡面媒體也報道說你針對媒體的這個做法是中國假信息以及認知作戰及破壞台美相關合作這點是很嚴厲的指控部長你又不是真的而且不是真的不是真的好部長不是真的就是假新聞喔是嗎不是真的也有可能是他誤解我們的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3665.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3671.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
當然誤解 但是你要表示意見啊 不中拜託我民意代表在跟你感動 但是我為你打抱不平欸你知道嗎 可是你從來都不講 這叫做什麼到底是默認 或者說我想不幹了 我也不理你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3682.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3707.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個心態你要去調整好我們當天馬上就有澄清這個立即可以澄清我們副院長叫立可白的這個做法那這件事情其實也跟委員報告我非常快速的說明了你不要跟我說明因為我就是替你打抱不平我才談這些事那另外一個你個人事小數位部所有的同仁被抹黑被栽贓這類的東西對他們是不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3709.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3729.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
博鳳當然因為你是政府官你來氣自如但是你不能讓我們數位部的同仁說一個比較快的這個不擺之煙嘛所以這個博鳳我提供給你你個人事小但是數位部的同仁他的清白是很重要的好不好好來博鳳我跟你談業務啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3733.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3750.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
現在我們比較矛盾的地方就是這個像台積電裡面的資訊服務啊那我們有三個單位在做一個是我們樹花部一個是我們經濟部一個是我們國花會 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3751.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3773.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那通通都是做這些資訊服務請問到底是應該我們做或者國發會做或者經濟部做這個有什麼區別你可以告訴我們好的國發會他是在就是政策上位的高度我們數位部也是國發會的成員就好像我們是國科會的成員一樣所以各個部門要怎麼樣子配合好比方經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3774.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3788.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
在硬體方面要怎麼樣配合晶片方面怎麼配合我們這邊軟體上面的需求這個是在國發會或國科會來進行協調我們數位部當然就是有什麼差別我要的是我們數位部做的事情有什麼差別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3789.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3804.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們數位部一成立我們就確保說我們的這些雲端的支付廠商因為這跟以前你一定要裝在一台電腦一不一樣對 完全不一樣我們是用跨境的方式來進行這些支付業者的輔導那經濟部當然是跟硬體有關的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3806.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3825.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是這裡面是有三種的編列預算這個不要浪費公帑所以這個部分請部長可能也要注意一下那另外一個我剛才已經強調我們數位部本來就是非常專業的單位當然我也不會去苛責你們一天到晚去出國出國當然是 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3826.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3852.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
稍為吸收一點知識來做交流這個其實從頭開始本席都不會去怪你們這些但是要把成果做出來但是有一點專業單位我們合併以前的支撤會本席接到剪輯說我們資安啊現在未來在台灣是非常重要的喔所以資安是非常重要可是資安守 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3853.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3880.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他對治安沒有什麼經歷這點我想你回去還是要嘗一下我不要書面你們要你就來問你知道嗎因為這個我還要提供提供就變成剪輯但是有人剪輯我我必須要讓部長知道所以你們所有的這些都不是專業的很多在你們單位這個要把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3880.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3881.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我建議部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3898.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3922.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
當一天和尚敲一天鐘把這些清除我可以講一句話就好那資策會裏面本來也有我們的所謂的技術服務中心那是專業的資安工房的人員那我們成立之後基本上大概都到了我們資安院裏面我們有個專門的行政法人那至於資策會資安所現在對於資安產業標準的推廣等等有他的任務讓我們之後拜會委員我同意啦但是還是要盤點一下啦好不好專業單位就是專業單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3926.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3953.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
祝謝各法解文件另外一個我們當然因為我們數位部這裡談到我們的這種簡信111這個效果的問題據我了解效果是不彰但是你的報告是效果還不錯但是我要提供給部長千萬不能灌水你給我的資料是70幾個單位使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3955.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3969.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
但是我們所投的資料是11個單位在使用那個去年試辦的資料好那這個部分我坦白跟你講跟部長報告這個部分要加強啦因為這種東西統一的這些統一的東西應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3974.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3992.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
要去做到大家管用政府機關要管用沒關係那你把正確的資料因為我看到的資料有灌水啦就是舉例一個單位他有分七八個你也把他算一個不是這樣不是這樣沒關係我們在書面提供代會委員的時候也會解釋好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3996.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4005.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
但是我剛才第一個談的政治問題跟這個你要自己該澄清的要澄清好不好好謝謝主席林委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言謝謝主席我們先請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4028.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4050.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
委員好部長好其實我對部長一直寄以厚望因為數位部是一個新的單位那部長也是空前的一個部長所以責任重大人民寄以厚望但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4051.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4060.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
現在為什麼有很多委員對部長有意見呢?我在想一來就是大家在短時間沒有看到部長的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4061.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4085.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
到底對人民防詐防堵尤其這是人民最關心的但是還是有那麼多的詐騙集團讓人民受害所以會讓人民覺得說我對數位佈置要成立之後我想應該詐騙集團可以減少很多很多啊那為什麼還有這麼多呢所以很多人就會對此不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4086.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4104.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
當然我是覺得說一來就是說部長也的確是一個新的部跟新的部長那成果不見得馬上看得到但是我覺得部長要加緊腳步讓人民感受到我今天詐騙集團如果說我有10成我已經擋掉了9成擋掉9成5了 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4106.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4133.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
但是我還是有0.5成到1成在欺騙人民還是有這些害到人民所以人民會覺得說數位部到底有沒有做事所以我想這個部分數位部要加緊腳步當然大家對數位部這麼寄以厚望相對的他當然就會用更嚴格的標準來審度我們數位部到底做了哪些我先就數位部的中繼辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4135.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4140.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個人民一看到齁14個月租金7千萬7千萬算起來1個月5百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4143.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4170.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
人民會覺得說為什麼要開這麼多集那真的是會有意見尤其當時就是在中紀辦公室也曾經說要搶東門市場沒有已經完全沒有這件事現在是在行二行三就是也是行政院旁邊所以我的意思就是說在這個過程當中那當然很多人民會有意見那我現在要讓部長希望我能夠確定的就是說這14月的租金7000萬到底要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4171.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4194.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那將來我們可以避免掉要花這麼多的公帑去租一個地方何況要在星光大樓是不是要在這麼熱鬧的地方花這麼多錢那讓人們有一個不好的感覺所以是不是請部長就我們的辦公室現在的目前使用的地方中紀辦公室跟未來確定了沒有是不是還要花這麼多的租金 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4195.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4197.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
只是已經確定要在行二行三? |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4217.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4234.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
對,那我們目前收到的消息是說大概5年左右可以蓋好但是中間如果國產署給我們任何別的地方我們當然就不會繼續租新光OK,那現在我們先確定就是說未來的地方確定在行二行三那我們這個中紀辦公室的7000萬這麼貴的租金要到什麼時候? |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4237.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4255.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對,剛剛已經講了就是最多就是五年行二行三蓋好但是中間如果國參署給我們任何其他的地方我們就可以直接從新光過去OK我希望說能夠為人民減少節省公帑希望說那個我們數位部可以盡量的來處理當然所以呢人家又檢視比較嚴格就是說那出國勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4257.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4268.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你看喔出國經費花這麼多錢然後又沒有看到實際的成果我想部長也應該把你的成果為什麼要花這麼多錢讓人民知道我們要核准這個預算我們才核准的下去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4270.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4287.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
謝謝委員當然吸引18國資安來這邊攻防演練這個是以前從來沒有的事情這個本身就是成果但是大家可以看到就是看得見或找到成果很多是好比像說我們吸取國外的一些最新的銀碼技術等等我們在國內的電商推動以至於5個月以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4288.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4312.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這些大型電商都沒有變成高風險賣場等於這個問題已經解決了那這個其實是有感的只是說大家一有感覺這個好像解決了就會馬上期待更多像網路廣告業、Facebook等等那這個也非常需要跟各國談判因為任何一個單一的國家去給Facebook或Google壓力是那個用處比較小的我們一定要聯合包含美國在內所有也有同樣問題的國家一起給他們壓力才能夠獲得談判的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4313.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4329.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以我其實私底下也有問過數位部就是說你們的打造網路民主防線你必須跟全世界各國的網路人才資訊人才去做這樣子一個聯防那為什麼一定要出國?不是現在很多視訊會議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4330.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4349.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
有啊 所以我們剛剛提到說我們自己辦的或者對方願意用視訊的我們大概會改視訊但是就在剛剛提到兩個就是資安的攻防演練因為那個是非常機密這個手機可能都不一定能帶進去的狀況這種談判以及這個國際的經貿談判他們有時候談判代表就是說一定要見到人那這個時候我們才試這個實體過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4351.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4380.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我想我們的立場就是要看緊人民荷包啦那數位部雖然是一個新的單位那花錢我們當然要特別的注意就是說該花則花該省則省所以也希望數位部在花錢的時候能夠盡量看緊人民荷包以最省的委員者能達到效率盡量不要說人民一看到租金7000萬出國這麼多人家一定會質疑說數位部到底是這個是怎麼花錢的是不是太過於浪費了 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4380.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4384.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以我這邊特別提醒我們數位部就是花錢以人民荷包能夠節省為原則好那最嚴重的呢就是打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4403.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4424.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
防堵這個部分坦白講我們人民最關心那我現在也有去了解就是說你們有做電子簽章那這個做了以後可不可以去減少人民被詐騙這個部分其實是整個國家社會最關心的我希望說你們什麼時候可以做出一個成果讓我們人民感受得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4425.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4449.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好 謝謝委員 這個非常重要委員剛剛說假設這個詐騙集團9成被抓了怎麼樣他剩下來的這一成如果他透過AI換臉假帳號等等技術他變成好像10倍20倍的甚至很多這種詐騙我們就是很困擾對就是冒名的狀況那這個就是要靠電子相法修法來解決去年在交委會的時候我就說雖然當時這個廣告平臺並不是本部這個組織是經濟部但我沒有這樣說我是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4451.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4460.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
只要交委會支援我們把電子簽約法三讀通過我們願意來當這個網路廣告平台的主管機關那現在已經送到交委會了只要通過我們就來當 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4461.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4483.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以將來就是在FB啦在任何的網路平台就他要用的詐騙廣告這些目前是經濟部在主責那數位部也願意把它單下來我們已經跟經濟部說經部也願意讓我們單下來現在是說我們當目的事業主管機關之外我們還需要改電子簽章法才能夠要求這些投資廣告上架前要用這種實名來簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4485.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4488.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
電子簽章是不是簡單讓我們國人瞭解一下什麼叫電子簽章 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4516.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4523.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
電子簽章會不會被仿冒?電子簽章有可能被仿冒但是數位簽章就是我們認定的憑證機構來掛保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4525.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4549.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以我們只要實施這個電子簽章法數位部可以掛保證不會被仿用我們可以掛保證那如果他剛好跟我真的同名同姓當然也許他可以看一次吧但是被抓到是詐騙之後他這個也會被撤銷掉那是一個身份證字號可以申請一個電子簽章對就是我們像自然憑證來說就是如果換了身份證字號的話本來的那個也失效所以每個人同時就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4549.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4565.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
就是一個法人或一個自然人都可以只可以有一個電子簽章不會被仿冒自然人是這樣沒有錯那法人的話不是叫自然人憑證是叫工商憑證對就是一個電子還是只有一個憑證只有一個簽章那這個數位部可以保證就不會被仿冒 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4565.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4584.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們可以保證就是在技術上面這個是不會被就是資安上面被攻擊當然我們不能排除說有些人會把他的資安憑證交給別人或人頭戶等等但是我要強調就是說他這個只能做一次做完之後就撤銷了最後特別的再要求就是國人對於這個詐騙集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4586.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4586.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
現在請葛如君委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4630.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4657.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好,有請數位部唐鳳部長備詢請唐部長委員好部長好我想今天是一個我們很好的機會來互相debug一下數位部從111年8月27號接牌到現在已經一年半了部長不知道有沒有越來越得心應手不過上個月有不少部長相關的報導下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4658.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4660.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我想從這個報告裡面我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4665.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4687.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他說呢部長到底是什麼樣的一個角色在這個部會當中他說是好的PM不是好的CEO指出部長缺乏有效領導管理造成與產業署和資安署的互動很少導致最後個性歧視看起來對部長的內部統一能力相當存疑而對外的跨部會溝通尤其電子信項這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4688.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4713.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
是您擔任部長以來推出的第一個法案似乎對外的業務推展與協調也有待加強想請教一下部長你怎麼看待這個說法你覺得你是個好CEO嗎?謝謝當初在數位部在籌備的時候其實大家就一直在想說是用委員會的形式就是專門用來協調的還是部的形式就是快速執行想要問一下您是不是一個好的領導統一的CEO快速執行政策方面我覺得我表現還不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4714.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4741.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好,那這很可能就是你的罩門速度其實並不是推行政策唯一的秘法我想請教一下給你一個平反的機會您擔任部長一年半的時間對業務應該非常閒熟這個最近電子簽章法預告完成了近半年這個預告之後半年還有部會在去年下旬提出排除電子簽章法適用的行政命令公告你知道是哪一個部會嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4742.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4749.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
其實各部會包含行政院、院本部都有有一個部會在您已經預告了以後他就說我不做您知道是哪一個部會嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4751.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4771.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們來看下一頁內政部你們預告完了以後在去年的10月16日內政部締政司排除電子簽章法適用公告我想身為部長對外向行政院申請預算、尋求法案支持還有對各部會的協調其實都非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4772.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4795.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我想再給你一個平反的機會想知道一下就是說部長就電子簽商法的部分有沒有向行政院爭取要積極的跨部會溝通我們剛剛已經看到一個不太好的例子我們想問一下有沒有向行政院爭取積極跨部會溝通有的而且不但是在法案審查的過程裡面我們跟各個部會交換意見我們也跨院溝通包含這個司法院等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4796.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4815.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
當然我們就有委員手上的這個表就在跨部會溝通的時候大家都有看到這個表我在記者會上面就已經提過了但今天我們特別放一個黃冠在這邊為什麼呢?不只到目前為止有26個部會排除電子簽章法的適用但是我們竟然還有一個部會呢?怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4815.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4830.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
他是完全在這一次請你們提出來這個兼電子商法草案裡面特別加了一條司法院是不適用的這部分是不是可以請部長說明一下什麼樣的原因司法院可以就不用呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4832.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4833.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我想這個相關的跨部會的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4849.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4857.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是會讓外界覺得他們在打臉數位部啦我們都不想看到這樣而你們在送上來條文上面並沒有針對這一個新增的這句話來做說明我想這個溝通或者跨部會都是非常重要的那我們想我們回到電子簽商法本身來講上個星期四的行政院院會通過了電子簽商法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4868.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4891.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
送到立法院本席表達肯定本席的版本也已經在上週五通過院會的一讀程序我想福國立民的法案我們都非常支持那我們是不是下一頁想要來跟這個部長一起表達我們立法委員不只是立法跟監督我們也還要一起來協力是不是可以跟我一起喊一下這個最重要的這句話大膽擁抱電子簽章好不好部長那我們3月1開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4896.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4920.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
大膽擁抱電子簽章吧我想也是喊給這26個部會啦再喊一次對不對好那我就321喔好大膽擁抱電子簽章吧我想這個部長有時候橫向溝通上上下下很辛苦啦那我想我們立委在這裡也跟你一起幫忙啦呼籲各部會一定要一起朝野一起來合作各部會一起來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4922.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4934.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我想接下來我的版本有一個非常特別的地方也請部長可以理解先喊沒有用,只有喊也沒有用我想我的版本裡面有一個特別的點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4935.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4962.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
非常非常的在意電子簽章的核定簽發跟應用的實務現況跟困境有沒有進行過相關的了解到底困難差異在哪裡實務統計是什麼比例用的如何公文書、私文書的比例有沒有做過調查我們新聞去問了沒有任何的資料給我們我在當政委的時候就已經跟經濟部當時還是政法處管機關做過這方面的調查那委員明定說我們要做這個調查我們樂觀啟程願意接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4963.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4981.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好 謝謝那我想這一次為什麼我這個非常非常這個非常重視這樣的一個議題我想大家也都非常重視是因為全世界台灣很可能是碩果僅存的非常尊重硬件章這樣的一件事情我想我們台灣是一個科技之島我們在過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4983.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4995.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我可以刻一個15塊的印章我就可以證明我是我了但是電子簽章只有政府說是你你才是你啦我想這樣子的一個事情我們應該要讓電子簽章的簽發單位更多元啦你最近有寫一本書叫Plurality對吧22年的法案我們這次總算要修法了也呼籲數位部來積極回應產業的訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5006.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5033.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
至於法案當中的緩衝期還要再給三年 這個真的是太久了我想部長可能會很羨慕立法院的自主性我們希望是一年所以不管這個520以後部長還是不是部長還是無論你是不是在臺灣我都非常歡迎你來擔任我的Podcast嘉賓我們一起針對電子錢當的法案再來多做討論好 謝謝之前剛剛許志源我有上他的節目沒有問題 謝謝兩位私底下在聊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5036.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5056.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
各委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言好,謝謝主席,我們請唐部長請唐部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5057.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5076.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
部長好,我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決,非常的精彩,那我們繼續接續下去。我想這個數法部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任,包含說,我要念一下這個強化數位基礎建設、協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系。 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5079.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5097.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠我把它念完之後其實包含自己當立法委員念完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5097.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5117.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
之前去年有一個網路媒體針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有80%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5118.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5134.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5137.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5151.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長請到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5152.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5176.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色好 謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非真實調查對對這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的數字也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5177.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5200.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
怎麼來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經驗那個當然就太過技術了所以我想確實委員勉勵的是很對的就是我們是快速看到民怨在哪裡哪些方法用舊的方法好像已經難以解決我們要快速的創新這裡面當然就有協調各部會的部分但這個快速多元的創新這個才是我們的根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5200.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5215.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5216.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5238.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5240.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5246.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5248.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5270.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5279.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5283.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5285.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5311.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
就像你剛剛提到了其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5312.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5326.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5329.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5355.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5357.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5362.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
但如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5379.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5382.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5393.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5421.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好,提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5423.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5447 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的Nick Clegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題我用20秒就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上現在因為有深層式AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首影片等等你講的是新聞的內容我現在不是提新聞內容,我要提的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5448.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5465.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
比如說澳洲政府它訂那個相關的法令它希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生了包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制它的下廣告它對這個相關的業務範圍它也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5466.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5495.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子相法也三讀通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5495.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5509.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
對阿,因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5512.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5530.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這件事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5530.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5546.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網絡詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5548.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5570.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5572.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5594.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有制裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5597.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5618.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
黃委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言在這邊做個宣告我們到林俊憲委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘請黨團告知其他委員以便他們安排質詢的時間請魯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5625.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5632.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好,謝謝主席。有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5634.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5662.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
其實打詐防詐已經談了4年今天邁入第5年當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5663.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5688.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業變商等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5689.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5707.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5708.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5734.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
不要再老是是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5736.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5765.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這是在尾端。刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到的訊息那個還不算被詐騙是已經詐到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被詐到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5766.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5775.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5777.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5803.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長你的說法是...好 謝謝我們去年在交友會有說明過就是這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是深層式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5804.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5804.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5819.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5833.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5835.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5864.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5865.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5885.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
能不能去追回但你也知道你在前言他騙的手法錢匯到哪裡去所以但是我們追回的比例在世界詐騙的一個類似的手法台灣出入的比例只佔13.9元比日本跟新加坡還要低我這樣子講這個原因就是假設我們源頭真的是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5886.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5886.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5916.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5940.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得以這個包含投資廣告在內這種冒充名人的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5941.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5970.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是說會身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5971.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5995.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
你特別強調這個數位身份證自然是掛保證 絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的 我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身份證 兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎那現在喊卡了 停掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5997.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6023.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
最主要什麼原因?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6024.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6045.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
昨天我看到報導媒體寫說國民黨委員不知道當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的是我們馬英九政府馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心我提出這個理念然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了蓋不成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6047.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6074.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6075.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6100.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6102.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6118.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政不要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6118.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6145.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6146.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6173.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
針對於我們資料在國內怎麼樣使用人民不安心可是你看看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6174.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6176.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
是可用的設備還是都不能用? |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6205.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6208.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
接下來邀請李昆哲召委發言。謝謝主席陳淑月委員。現在請部長。請唐鳳部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6220.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6244.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
政委好部長好我想數位部國人對於基於眾望當然民眾希望打債要有具體的一個成果第二就是對於公司部門的直通安全民眾的直通安全要有基本的一個保障另外對於數位產業的一個發展也要有給予正面的一個協助那我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6246.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6267.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
台灣是全球資安威脅的一個重點區域那資安就是等於國安國家的安全的一個重點數位部希望說我們國人希望說數位部能夠改善我們國家的公司部門的資通安全當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6268.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6282.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
依據資通安全管理法我們有分層管理的機制包含內部的集合、第二方的集合或者是導入資訊安全管理系統完成公正的第三方驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6284.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6307.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
資安署也有重要的工作就是完成它的集合包括公務機關、非公務機關相關的集合的一個工作我們來看資安署的這些集合的成果包括行政院所屬的公務機關當然都有很多的這些待改善的事項或者是特定非公務機關也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6308.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6333.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
將近417個待改善的事項所屬公務機關有700個待改善的事項從集合的成果以及資安事件的件數來看我們公務機關跟非公務機關的資通安全其實它的改善還是有相當大的空間我們來看資安事件的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6334.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6362.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
沒有看到減少啦也都是有增加尤其比較嚴重的像二級的事件跟三級的事件有增加的趨勢那當然部長也知道二級就是非核心的資訊業務他相關的這些遭到洩漏篡改或是停頓等等那三級就是一般公務或是機敏資料遭到洩漏篡改停頓等等那 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6363.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6388.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這些部分請部長簡單說明一下我們現在目前的資通安全的狀況我們看到這個建築增加有很大一部分原因是因為我們採取鼓勵通報及時聯防這樣子的政策在此之前就是2021年或以前他的資安專職人員他不一定有意識到發生事情意識到之後他並不一定有那麼強的保證說他通報之後立刻會有人來幫他進行應酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6389.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6414.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以隨著我們應變儲備的能力以及偵測的能力變強本來就會事件的數量變多這是第一個那第二個是說我們現在透過像剛剛提到的巡迴的集合等等的方式我們發現就是攻擊的那個數量以及攻擊的手段的就是先進的程度也不斷的在增加所以其實我們是花了非常非常多的力氣才能夠讓大家看到說最近包含選舉前等等我媽是有其他的一些發現的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6416.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6432.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
依照治安法,治安署他並沒有對所有的公務機關有集合的權限那我們所屬的這些公務機關的治安資料有很多待改善的事項是沒有被治安署掌握的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6434.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6458.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我們絕大部分都是集合一定會管考剛剛您如果提到的是像鄉鎮市議會或等等這些這些我們在新版的資安法裡面有做處理那這個草案應該這幾天就會送到現在另外一個問題就是我們一般的非公務機關資安法它沒有去統一要求我們所有的非公務機關的資安相關的資料的這些義務嘛那我們非公務機關的資安維護計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6461.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6468.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
遭受的治安事件還是沒有辦法有效的掌握這也是我們面對的問題那沒有治安法的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6470.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6495.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
據如何集合資安資料掌握資安事件這也是數位部未來要處理的一個重要議題來說明一下謝謝當然他如果是非公務機關但是被判成關鍵的基礎設施或資訊系統的話那這部分是在資安法裡面那委員剛剛提到的有些外面大家很多人在用他是上市貴公司那這樣的話現在他也要有資安事件要發表重大訊息要設資安長等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6496.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6514.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那如果又沒有上市櫃的就是普通的這些產業的話那我們現在也透過像TW3CC現在在資安院提供他們24小時每週7天這樣子的即時應出的服務那看署長要不要...部長我還是具體的建議我們現在有的機制還是要強化的我們各單位的內部集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6515.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6538.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
現在是一年兩次我是希望能不能調高頻率至少每季一次看有沒有這樣的一個調整的方式另外就是要持續的擴大辦理針對現有的公務機關以及非公務機關它的集合頻率跟次數而且要分為定期跟不定期來做集合來簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6539.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6564.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
當然我們現在有一個重要政策就是去導入所謂的端點政策系統意思就是說不是只有快集合的時候我們才來看他的這個狀態而是他隨時會回報他實際的狀態那除此之外剛剛委員提的也很好就是像社交工程的演練啊或者我們請紅隊來實際上打打看啊等等這個事情也不會告訴他們到底是用什麼手法來做所以這些我們都有在做那是不是資安署也多說明一下資安署說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6565.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6592.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好的謝謝委員其實我們除了資安集合之外我們還有從外部就是從外部去看網路上面的流量去監測是不是有害侵第二個我們也會做攻防就是說他自己說他做得很好但是我們會攻防看看他是不是有沒有問題就是從外面是不是攻得進去所以其實不只做資安集合那另外跟委員報告就是其實我們偵測發現網路上的攻擊真的是變多所以當他有偵 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6594.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6607.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們現在是導入那個隨時的監測機制所以他們每隨時有問題我們都是及時要求我還是最後具體的建議除了現行機制的強化我們對治安法的修正我們看到現在非公務機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6608.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6631.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6631.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6645.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
數位部現在有一些修正草案資安署具有定期或不定期集合公務機關以及特定會公務機關的權限這個部門也要加強跟行政院來做協調完成行政院的這樣一個公司送到立法院來沒問題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6657.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6669.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好,現在請陳素月委員發言。好,謝謝主席。請主席邀請唐鳳部長。請部長。委員好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6675.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6693.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
部長早安,我們知道這個訴發部成立最重要的任務就是這個治安這是大家都非常關心的就是關於防害防詐這是我們主要的重點的這個任務那有關這個防害的這個治安的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6694.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6711.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們知道就是說在這個資通安全管理法裡面有針對我國的這個關鍵基礎設施的治安有進行規範也有分這個八大領域那這八大領域裡面包括就是能源、水資源、通訊、傳播、交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6711.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6730.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
金融、緊急救援與醫院還有政府機關科學園區、工業區這八大領域那我先就這部分請教就是說雖然其中這個通訊傳播主管機關是數位部數發部可是其他不是我們主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6731.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6731.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6755.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6774.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
確實除了通訊傳播以及政府機關的內部網路這兩個是在這一層是我們主責之外我們在上面還有一層國家級的所以這些八大領域的其實都會往這個國家級來進行通報那這個通報我們現在因為由資安院來進行技術上面的分析資安署進行政策上面的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6775.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6791.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這一部分我們現在都採取一些整合式分析的方式所以不會像以前那樣子完全說好像是他們八個分別來進行這方面情資的分析現在在資安院我們已經開始去做這方面整合分析那至於就是新的資安法對於關鍵基礎設施的新一步的做法是不是請署長來跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6795.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6811.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
跟委員報告其實我們對到每一個關鍵基礎設施除了說不管的之外每一個我們都很重視所以我們要求第一個平常要聯訪情誌要交換第二個如果遇到事件要怎麼樣通報應酬也有一定的規定那第三個我們會有一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6812.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6812.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們會追蹤。 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6837.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6858.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
是好謝謝署長因為我們知道提升政府資訊安全的防護能力非常的重要因為這個關係到整個國家安全關係到我們國人的一個民生的一個需求因為現在去年我有關心過像彰化的這個肉品市場的一個當機的一個事件本來是懷疑是駭客入侵後來應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6859.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6860.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
通訊傳播主管機關室速發部可是我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6888.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6912.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
其實在最近幾年也有發生媒體遭受攻擊的這個事件那在這個部分想請教一下部長就是說在這部分我們數話部可以提供媒體什麼樣的一個支援我想首先當然如果是講新聞或什麼內容的話那個不是我們但是我們對他們的資通系統確實是在我們聯防的過程裡面我們會去強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6913.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6938.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
一方面就是強化他們的專責人員的這個訓練二方面我們新的資安法裡面特別設了一個調度權就是有這些重大事件發生的時候不會只有他們四個人或兩個人或一個人來負全部的這個應處的責任我們會把附近的就是地點相近的或者說他能夠透過就是相同的共用的系統來支援的這些人把它以戰帶訓把這一次的攻擊當作一個訓練機會一起來支援這個重大事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6939.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6951.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們知道媒體的傳播無遠弗屆而且速度很快對整個社會安定會造成很大的衝擊我們也看到之前也曾經發生烏龍事件就是新聞台物質跑馬燈後來他們對話說明是物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6958.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6984.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
可是我們如果把它想成如果說假設這個是一個駭客入侵新聞媒體的一個事件的話我想這個就非常的一個嚴重那所以根據本席瞭解就是說目前在這個通訊傳播的這個領域除了公廣集團及特定媒體之外多數的新聞單位不在我們的資安管制範圍內是不是這樣就是說它並沒有被指定成關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6986.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6996.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那這樣子的話可能這部分我們以後有可能去加進嗎?這部分當然我們在新的治安法修法的時候各界都有給這些意見是不是請署長稍微說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6997.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7019.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
報告委員其實所有的機關除了資安法指定因為它就一定要付出很多代價去做系統的強化但是現在大家都有系統嘛所以我們是採聯房的方式跟情資分享的方式包含我們現在辦的教育訓練那個很多的數位學習的平台我們都開放給所有的那個包含民間機關都可以來使用所以我們就是盡量的協助大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7020.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7036.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
是,我想這部分很重要因為我們也曾經看到之前美國的有一個案例雖然這個時間比較早就是在2013年的時候一個就是駭客運用apt攻擊成功接管這個美聯社的官方twitter帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7038.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7051.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
當時這個事件就造成那時候的美國股市下跌所以這個對整個社會安定就衝擊很大所以這部份我們也希望數位部未來也會要做一個全盤的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7052.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7079.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
對,我想我們在自動安全管理法裡面當然我們定義自動安全包含資訊系統的完整性等等但是您剛剛提的比較像是資訊本身的完整性就不一定是系統怎麼樣了但是這個資訊本身能不能及時更正等等那這一部分當然可能比較不是自動安全法這一次修法的狀態但是我們目前也透過像我們的數位產業署透過一些就是審議士民調等等的方式來蒐集民間對於資訊完整性的具體期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7081.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7103.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
謝謝部長接下來就是針對有關防炸的部分我想這個也是大家都非常關注的一個議題在這部分因為民眾對於防炸的部分期待也非常的高我們也希望政府要有更具體的一些成效讓民眾可以感受得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7103.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7129.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那對於詐騙打詐其實從源頭的這個防詐是非常的重要那這部分就是跟我們數位部非常的密切關係那在這部分剛剛部長在做報告的時候有提到就是要推動這個數位簽章這部分剛剛很多委員有關心所以我想再請教一下就是這部分未來實施之後是不是可以真的可以發揮它的效果主角這個詐騙的廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7131.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7152.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
謝謝委員給我們時間說明目前這個圖卡上面講的是說他比較在選舉期間如果要登政治或社會類的廣告Facebook他作為就是他的自律的這個做法他是要求你證明說你是本國人而且就是是本人那目前的做法是上傳像身份證反面照片或護照照片等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7153.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7178.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
但這個的挑戰是說第一個他可能提供他的身份證正反面的照片是辦別的事情用的然後那個人拿那個照片去幫他申請那這個就比較像是用身份驗證的這種方式去做類似數位簽章的事情但是沒有像硬件證明就是蓋這個章就是我本人所以我們現在把它提升到數位簽章的層級的話那就一定要是那個人為了來看登投資廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7178.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7179.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
謝謝部長的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7206.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7223.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
陳委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言林俊憲委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝主席本期邀請我們唐鳳部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7228.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7230.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們已經派人去這個先進調查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7245.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7266.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
請問是不是證實確實有機密資料外泄我們目前就是其實中華電信他在那個公開訊息重要訊息裡面已經有講就是說這是在他所看起來是確實是中華電信目前他需要清查就是他到底根本原因是什麼等等那這個我們已經要他限期交根本原因的不改善報告我們收到了馬上跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7266.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7292.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他不用清查我們就看他賣什麼東西在暗網上這個駭客賣什麼東西大概也知道他有哪些機密資料外洩嘛是不是這樣子很多包括國軍的資料啊像包括海軍啊租用中華電信衛星訊的事情外交部3年前跟現在斷交的諾魯的資通訊合作會議這是列為機密的資料的外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7293.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7305.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
還有中華電信幫海巡署安裝衛星這些資料全部被公開出來也就是說涉及的單位包括軍方包括海巡以及國安部很多單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7307.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7332.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
其中還有一張圖,中華電信的電力圖,電信圖那查起來就是在總統府的對面你知道這件事吧?我有看到媒體的報導那中華電信在他的訊息裡面也有說明就是總統本人住的永和官邸的正對面那裡的電路圖都被駭客拿出來賣所以現在證實有這樣的一個機密外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7336.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7345.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我想要了解的就是說中華電信在我們資訊安全的就是在自動網的規範裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7347.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7373.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
他應該算是特定的非公務機關他是電信的關鍵基礎設施沒有錯對他是關鍵基礎設施他雖然不是公家單位但是特定的非公務機關嘛也就是說他應該是國安非常重要的一部分尤其他基本上有很多業務他是獨佔的就像部長你剛講的他是關鍵的基礎設施嘛但很可惜我們的自通法沒有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7375.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7375.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
當時我記得認為是衛街上的一個爭議吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7392.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7420.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
到底資訊安全是要直屬於行政院還是應該要由訴發部來直接管理我記得當時好像是有這樣的一個不好意思我說明一下下我們現在在新的資安法裡面明定行政院設資通安全匯報所以絕對是行政院而且是國家資通安全匯報意思是說就其他寺院或就其他政府都可以由國家資通安全匯報來處理那大概什麼時候會送出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7420.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7442.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們就這兩天就會簽到行政院那行政院我們會盡快的跟我們的督導政委跟行政醫生對我非常重要啦雖然現在是所謂的cancel next的時候但是事情還是要做啦因為這個法案應該是去年就要通過的啦它通過的差別在哪裡呢現在公務單位都有設立所謂治安長公交機關大概都有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7443.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7467.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
但是很多民間單位就是我剛剛提的有些特定的非公務機關應該要在自動安全法裡面他也有必要要來設立相關的資訊通訊安全的專責單位和主管而且也加重他對於集合通報等等的責任對他就要負起相關的責任像現在中華電信就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7468.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7485.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
中央典禮有設立嗎?有,因為它已經知道自然法會修到什麼樣所以它其實是有這方面的編制但是我完全同意委員就是這個我們去年就一直協調包含調讀權什麼然後後來我就跟資安署說如果沒有共識的就下一波了這一波趕快送這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7486.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7510.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
但是中華電信設立有用嗎?這怎麼直接打臉中華電信?這是暗網上賣的他說有1.7個TBA的資料全部都從中華電信裡面駭出來的也就是說中華電信就像部長講的你說他已經有設立一個專責單位因為他知道未來自動安全法的修法方向大概也有設立相關的主管他東西還是被丟出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7514.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7536.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以這個兩件事情先跟委員說明第一個是說他這個來源是他關鍵措施範圍還是不是等等這個我們根本原因等等二月二十八號就爆發這個事情了今天已經三月七號了確實這第一個今天已經三月七號了所以你說不應該趕快去把它了解清楚對第二個就是說涉及國安的部分我們也及時就是跟國安在通報那我再請教你一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7539.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7561.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
求指導案就要趕快通過相關的非公務單位的這些特定機關全部要納進來他們要負起相關的權責要建立相關的資訊安全的這樣的一個機制和專責的負責人我希望我們在這方面說話不能加快腳步另外就是抖音的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7562.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7570.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
媒體有報導嘛,抖音在年前啦就過年以前就有來啦抖音的生日還說啦他 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7571.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7594.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
在選舉前就已經就在TikTok的網站說明他已經跟中選會建立直接的溝通通報管道向中選會就是說讓中選會向抖音可以舉報疑似違反台灣選舉法令以及TikTok社群自律公約的在內的相關內容但是我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7595.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7617.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
選後在抖音上面大肆流傳說什麼做票的這個假訊息非常嚴重有這個中選會及時通報那因為我們公務機關是不能夠連到TikTok這個事情嚴重造成民眾質疑選舉結果你應該知道吧我當然知道那造成民眾的對意 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7618.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7644.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
完全就是中共嚴重傷害到臺灣的民主啊有及時處理的但是我們這邊要強調的就是廣為流傳對導演有負起他的責任嗎要強調的是說他不是普通的廣告平台他現在也被我們界定成危害產品就是境外敵對勢力可能可以實質控制的這個產品你有辦法管理他嗎所以剛剛提到的我在請教部長大家關心詐騙現在詐騙最主要的來源在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7650.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7667.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
已經不是臉書了、不是Meta啦是在抖音上面了說C2C直播賣東西之類賣假貨的賣毒品的甚至賣槍的甚至一些色情也有一些很嚴重的兒少色情都在抖音上面校園霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7669.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7691.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
也是最早從抖音開始的現在台灣很多青少年會被抖音害死他們就霸凌同學要拍影片丟上來都學抖音的最早以前都是一些中國的影片嘛是不是這樣台灣也發生過啊好像兩個還三個屁孩啊把一家很大型的那個超商燒掉好像加入把它燒掉了他筆錄裡面他寫的他學抖音的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7693.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7718.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我先說明一下所以現在的一些社群尤其兒少社群、校園霸凌、槍毒、賣假貨、詐騙都在抖音我說明一下就是大型的網路廣告平台當然應該要納管那我剛剛也有提到我們主動跟經濟部說可不可以這部分之後交給我們管所以我們是願意的第一個第二個危害產品的部分在自動安全管理法我們希望能夠看到成果你看美國國會現在就是針對抖音 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7721.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7739.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
他也是說他要求字節跳動一定要跟抖音切割啊就除非TikTok不再被境外勢力控制對要不然他就要他就要他就要查禁禁到抖音啊歐洲很多國家也是啊我們都有注意到這些都是民主國家啊都有注意到為什麼他們發現你抖音嚴重傷害的我認為不是政治啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7740.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7751.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
是對於教育啦尤其對一些小孩對一些未成年的這青少年傷害非常嚴重是他作為廣告平台跟作為危害產品我們都會來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7754.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7754.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
您委員發言完畢現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7792.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7793.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7824.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7830.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7846.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7866.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7866.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7884.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
議員會議員會議員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7885.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7912.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7912.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7923.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
議員．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7930.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7932.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
主席蔣介石議員、蔣介石議員、蔣介石議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7959.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7986.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7986.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7986.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8016.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8018.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
議員．一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告． |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8032.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8033.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
議員：一、邀請數位發展部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8059.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8083.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8087.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8111.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8115.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8130.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
社會主席的內容,常常因為刺激到新規的態度,那樣用自然道理去表明發揮。而且發揮因為在南日本的聯會、地理連席、民主黨的開放、民主黨的擁護。所以南日的戰略開放、南日的社會主席、社會主席、社會主席、社會主席、社會主席、社會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8140.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8167.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8167.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8185.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8192.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8209.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8209.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8224.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8224.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8249.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8251.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8254.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8266.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8275.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：完整會議三、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8294.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8309.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8323.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8333.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8346.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8352.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8363.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8368.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8384.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8409.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
議員、議員、議員、議員、議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8421.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8422.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8432.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8439.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8465.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8480.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好,繼續開會現在請邱若驊委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8485.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8493.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
法務部紀去年增加了100名檢察官助理今年再增加增聘了150名檢察官助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8503.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8523.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
並實施各項改善方案、紓減檢察官工作負荷。請問部長對於去年第一層檢察官典名、金管會、NCC及速發部機構說是否涉及行政怠惰並盼法務部盡快增加檢察官能力?部長有什麼看法?還有什麼解討方案? |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8526.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8544.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好 謝謝我想委員這個講得非常好因為我們這三個其實是聯房的關係那當時檢察官主要反應的就是說像第三方支付在我們可是金融監理的很多工具在金管會那我們如果不把系統馬上接起來的話那就會變成是說我們第三方支付這邊他們認為說要成為一個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8544.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8561.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
但是這個我們包含洗房在內的這些做法我們立刻就提出能量登錄的方案而且很多是跟檢察官一起討論出來的所以當然我們現在能量登錄當然已經上路了就不會像大家以前坊間說好像有上萬家第三方支付的營業項目跟委員報告現在只有40多家是跟我們有登錄的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8561.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8577.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
能量登錄是什麼時候的事?能量登錄就是在去年委員提這個漸清漸改的時候我們去年就提出這個方案那我們一路輔導到去年年底那基本上都有來登錄所以到今年呢就是大家如果沒有登錄的這些第三方支付就不能再拿到虛擬帳號了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8578.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8604.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那有具體的數據?下降的數據嗎?是的當然我們其實從第三方支付的這個量能可以看到就是之前第三方支付在完全沒有這個能量登錄的情況之下很多的詐欺他都是透過第三方支付的方式可能一層兩層就這樣子轉出去那現在呢我們在跟檢察官合作的時候即時通報的案件的這個處理的速度包含圈存、警示賬戶等等這個速度都有大幅的改善那這部分我們是不是書面在提供委員? |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8605.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8626.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
OK好謝謝部長那我們看第二張簡報那詐騙引進是民怨排行榜的前面可以看到是第三個詐騙詐騙猖獗與資安議題那去年大選期間TPOC臺灣議題研究中心也透過了Quick Seek快息與輿論分析資料庫收集從去年1月到10月的時候網路輿情的聲量數據系統他統計出民進黨政府十大 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8628.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8630.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
提供打造國家對相關部會還有數位治安的科技協助那具體的作為呢針對於源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8656.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8678.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
是的 有一個大家在之前常常收到的就是假冒政府機關那好比像說台水台電說要繳費但是這個點進去就是詐騙嘛那又導致什麼呢有一陣子連地方的國稅局他真的是簡訊訊息都被認為是詐騙變成政府沒有辦法接觸到民眾的情況那這個我們就透過111這個公部門專用的簡訊平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8680.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8703.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
現在大家就知道說不是一一發的又是說台水台電要繳錢那個就假的了這就是真正的源頭防詐政府公部門還有剛剛部長提到的國營事業還有一些像電商某某他們我們就發現就是當然就是民間的三大電信等等因為我們一開頭是政府才能夠用的但是三大電信其實他們現在自己都用六碼的這個短碼每一個都已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8703.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8723.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
五五六六八八其實是無碼的短碼所以大家看到短碼就知道我們希望可以不要觸及到民眾讓就是我們做防堵讓民眾不會接觸到對那針對於是應該是這樣講是說如果你看到國際上面傳來的訊息或者是說一個實碼的他說他是台水這一部分當然有NCC有做一部分的攔阻啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8724.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8744.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
但是大家就算看到了一看來不是111不是短碼就知道說絕對就是假的這樣所以這兩個在源頭上面一個是對於他傳訊的本身裡面有附網址等等的去攔阻那二方面是說111把真實的這個部分讓大家知道是部長您提到國際那根據資安大廠趨勢科技發布調查今天總統大選期間中國駭客組織EarthBusca |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8745.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8770.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
他們利用地緣政治敏感議題透過社交工程的手法對台灣發起駭客的活動。訴發部報告還有內容出國成效都有提到國家自動安全發展方案那強化智慧國家數位安全韌性部長您一直提到韌性這兩個字以及跨國聯防對抗治安的威脅掌握全球治安發展脈動還有促進促進跨國治安聯防等數位部隊這種重大駭客的攻擊防護能力如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8771.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8795.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
其實選前像這種社交工程、詐騙、電子郵件真的有一波確實是平常的好幾倍但是不論是這個還是阻斷攻擊等等這個我們是有偵測到而且有擋下來所以事實上沒有出事是因為我們做很多事情第二步就是我們在未來有這樣重要事件的時候我們藉由新的自動安全管理法或一個調度的這個權限所以就讓其他的旁邊的資安專責人員也可以來一起來參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8797.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8824.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
想請教部長因為很多詐騙集團他們的機房都設於國外那被害者常常求助無門更助長很多境外的詐騙特別瞄準臺灣人民那臺灣是資訊科技大國有那麼多的高科技人才速發部卻仍然無能為力嗎?不是這樣子我想以境外的這個廣告平台剛剛很多委員在吹詢一方面當然我們有主動跟經濟部說之後是不是這些網路廣告平台也應該移來當我們主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8824.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8840.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那如果真的有移過來之後又推了電子簽章法那他不管是在境內境外他同樣的都收到需要有數位簽章這個規範那未來我們也會參與像打炸專法去說如果他真的在境內都沒有設定代理人的話我們必須要他到一定規模的時候就要設定代理人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8841.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8862.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
數法部積極出國參與國際重要的會議還有活動．以掌握各國的數位．技術還有政策．發展情形．對於源頭打炸及治安實際成效如何．請部長說明所以就剛剛提到我們已經主管的部分．他們叫做電商．我們就是跟國外同步去讓銀碼技術．就是電商不用把你的個資．包含手機號碼交給物流 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8863.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8864.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這是現在Uber正在使用的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8885.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8908.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
希望部長還可以繼續再助能力我們希望民眾可以不用接觸到就是被詐騙集團鎖定因為這個部長談到的這個111那感覺還是在針對就是電商只是廣告平台的部分是現在大家最關注的因為很多他並不是電商很多是B2C就是有這個大的平台賣給人 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8909.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8931.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
但是現在很多他移到廣告平臺變C to C就他打個廣告然後他就好像自己直播然後就賣個東西這個時候他並不是商家所以C to C是部長提到就是在臉書上面就是需要用對那這個電子簽商法才能夠給我們就是即使對方賣的這個人是自然人他下一個投資廣告或什麼都可以讓他要數位簽賬那您提到實名制那後續的處理呢就是不只是下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8933.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8953.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
對 謝謝我想兩件事一個是說投資廣告當然現在檢舉24小時要下架那我們是希望說他被下架之後不能換個名字再上來這是第一點那第二個是說我們有跨平台的聯防所以他在這邊下架的時候我們就同步通報到其他的包含廣告平台、電商平台、165等等那這個時候他在所有其他別的平台的也可以一起下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8953.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8954.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
區委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8989.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8989.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
主席好大家好請唐部長請唐部長委員好好部長好這個第一次在諮詢台上跟你來請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9013.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9042.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這些年來其實沒有什麼特別機會可以在諮詢台上講但是跟蔡總統的開會、跟行政院的開會其實我長期以來對三件事情非常關心就是台灣的新山害這個幾乎已經到了大家深惡痛絕已經到了天怒人怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9043.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9072.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這個已經是我已經找不出形容詞來形容這幾年對台灣的危害所以新傷害就是詐騙、認知作戰跟網路的犯罪我想部長你也很清楚完全同意那其實我知道很多人對你批評包括媒體對你批評我認為有一些是對於政府分工的架構過去因為新型態的這個新傷害我們過去的工具也不是太夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9074.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9088.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
部會的職責分工過去傳統的分類方式很難有系統有效率的對這個新山派來面對大家處置所以我也知道你做了一些努力包括去調整等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9090.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9116.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但是呢我還是覺得不管我可以理解你的苦衷但是我覺得人民沒有辦法等待當然政府一體啦我們一成立很多就是受到受害的人是直接來找我們說要報案要我們派人去當調查檢察官當然不可能但是我們要必須建立這個機制快速的讓檢警調可以作業沒有錯沒有錯所以我說人民沒有辦法等待所以他就罵政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9117.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9140.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那有時候你就會變成箭靶首當其衝所以我們有很強烈要檢討的部分就我們有一些委屈但我覺得不能談委屈我們要談的是怎麼把問題解決所以你提的包括電子簽章法這個本席是非常支持的因為它等於一定程度的實名制特別在廣告上面一定程度的實名制 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9141.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9159.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
然後這個把業務的規整比如說經濟部原來該管的業務到你到數位速發部來這個我也很支持我們主動承擔嘛對這個我也很支持那除了這個之外其實在防範上面其實你應該要再發揮一點你最厲害的這些創意 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9160.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9183.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
過去我們有很多的這個包括從疫情期間等等一些透過科技來造福大家的方式效率提升的方法防範這個疫情的方式其實都很多大家稱讚你的部分那同時在面對這個所謂的詐騙認知作戰其實還有很多的創意你也可以認真來想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9183.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9207.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
例如說我不是科技專才但過去我也跟陳院長、蘇院長的時代我都提過在跟他們開會的時候我都提過例如說過去還沒有電子簽章的時候我覺得要讓民眾大家對檢舉達人是很負面的例如說一個檢舉達人可能在交通違規上面一年可以檢舉上萬件 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9209.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9231.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
可是我很希望這個檢舉達人在檢舉網路的詐騙的時候他也可以檢舉2萬件、3萬件這個應該要頒獎給他1、2、5現在有一個專門檢舉的網頁但是我還是覺得那個還是太不方便就是有沒有可能有一種譬如說我在看到我看到網路上譬如說現在我還看到譬如說謝金河在招收會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9232.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9258.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這個謝金河很頭痛每天都在一直罵說他一直澄清也沒有用可不可以我看到這個我立刻做一個什麼很簡單一樣在我的手機上不用再打第65也不用再寫email我就直接一點選我剛剛提的是165的網站包含你截圖或165的LINE這個上面有我再事後提供給你其實我的意思說還有沒有更簡便的方式有沒有可能你們研發看看我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9260.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9287.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
更簡便的方式其實就是電子簽商法我最近也看到很多就是他因為Google現在開始做所謂實名制但他會跟名人的字差一個字但是聲音一樣所以他一下就混過去但他不可能真的叫這個名字吧所以這個就是有沒有數位簽商的差別這我知道所以我說電子簽商之前這個是過去還沒有通過之前我提的那現在當然有電子簽商其實它源頭就可以控管很多就不用再檢舉了對因為你實名了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9288.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9314.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以我的意思只是舉這個例子來解釋說那個創意很重要那譬如說我們知道簡訊的詐騙事實上它跟它是NCC主要在NCC但因為簡訊的詐騙裡面它會連結網路所以它又跟速發布又扯上盤所以NCC現在說如果你付網址那個網址沒註冊乾脆就不讓你發大方簡訊對所以這個你應該想一些方法譬如說我以前就提過後來現在搞了那個111 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9316.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9332.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那其實不只這樣,像我覺得大型的企業,譬如說銀行,我常常最常接收到銀行的嘛,它是真的啦,它要通知你什麼可是通常喔,自從詐騙這幾年猖獗之後,我都教導老人家,你就不要看了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9333.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9353.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
反正他要你辦的業務他就要直接找到你來辦嘛這其實變成我們的產業在發這個訊息他是效率極低因為我為什麼沒辦法嘛老人家他沒有辦法判別所以乾脆就叫我媽媽都不要打開了可是真的是銀行要通知他要辦什麼業務其實是無效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9354.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9378.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
對,那我的意思是說為什麼除了111之外不可以給每一個大型企業比如說遠通他要通知你那些相關的或者銀行像這些大型企業他在發簡訊的時候可不可以一樣有111的數據我們現在三大電信他都有這個6碼的短碼他跟平常10碼不一樣那這個就是他們在幫忙或他自己給會員發簡訊的時候用所以這一套我們跟NCC討論現在三大電信有建置起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9379.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9403.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那當然是不是說每個企業有自己的短碼像55688那樣那會可能有一些建制費用但至少共用一個六碼短碼這個他們現在都有建制OK就是我的意思說當他有一個你告訴他說上面只要出現比如說上面出現中國信託那就一定中國信託那當然因為他是中文字啦你現在只能用碼用數字的方式如果要字的話當然可以像Who's Call啊Mrs. |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9403.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9404.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
Checker啊這些要裝APP |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9405.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9426.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對,所以我的意思是說這個叫創就是一樣科技帶給我們便利但也帶給我們新的犯罪形態但同樣的我們也應該再把科技有利的部分再數發布再想想再發揮一下創意我委員講得非常好,完全同意那最後一個就是說我今天看到了媒體美國這個聯邦眾議院在這個美中戰略競爭特別委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9431.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9458.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
他們要提了一個法叫做保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式侵害法案簡單講就是他要中國這個自解跳動這個公司也就是抖音啊就要抖音這個公司啊要他切割也就是國際版的抖音不可以跟中國的這個自解跳動而且不是只是什麼持股51%他要證明他不會受實質控制對對對對那你個人覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9461.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9482.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這個就是我們在資安上面對危害產品我們是完全同一個立場就是危害產品現在並不是說他註冊在哪裡他就算註冊在新加坡在開曼群島等等我們有情資顯示他被實質控制他一樣是危害產品所以換言之臺灣會跟隨如果美國法案這個法案過了我們一樣要求跟隨我們已經做這樣一陣子所以我們的但是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9484.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9507.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們要求國際版的抖音你要求過他們嗎?我們現在是這樣子跟委員報告我們現在跟美國的狀況是一樣的我們更早實施就是在政府裡面包含這個公務員貨配的設備等等這些是擋住的TikTok是連不到的當然除非中選會他是需要檢舉我們專門開通那幾台電腦那這個跟美國是同步 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9509.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9530.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那委員剛剛提到的是說有沒有說要逼著他說一定要設一個境內的這樣子的presence那這個我們事實上有主動的請抖音請TikTok啦從新加坡來台北來進行這方面的討論那這部分因為我們要先取得網路廣告平台業的主管機關的這個狀態所以要先從經濟部移過來我們下一步比較好做 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9531.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9557.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以我覺得這個其實美國的動作都會全球裡面我看美國最大他每次都是引領大家因為我們都很清楚知道這個是言論自由跟國家安全之間這個歸根究底就是這兩者之間的想法上的論戰但我覺得美國他作為民主國家的這個領頭羊他每次都是動作最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9559.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9576.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我想這裡還是要分開一點就是在英文他們說freedom of speech就是你的發言跟freedom of reach就是你透過廣告一下擴散到整個社會這兩個還是不一樣的那不是說不讓大家有言論自由但是透過錢來散播到整個社會這另外一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9576.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9590.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
沒錯,其實我們都懂啦只是說我會覺得他每次贊成跟反對的聲音他背後的價值常常是在這一個問題上面來凸顯那所以我的意思就是說如果國際發樓的事情我覺得我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9592.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9615.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
至少要跟上,如果能超前當然更好當然,我們盡量以超前為目的因為時間的關係,主席又站起來了所以我們還有很多時間可以跟書發部一起來討論其實我今天講這傷害我都還沒開始提它的內容比如說這網路犯罪我跟部長也提,我前兩年也被駭客把我的電腦整個控管住 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9616.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9640.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我去報案看起來我們的警政機關也沒有什麼方法我們樂意來拜賀委員對對對最後我還叫這個最後他勒索我要用比特幣去換我的資料所以其實我也是受害者所以我其實有很多的想法有時間我們再來討論我們就找時間拜賀委員謝謝蔡委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9653.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9653.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
請唐部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9661.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9687.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
部長其實我今天一樣跟我們的林國城委員一樣先幫你報區一下這個去年我們在編列今年出國考察預算的時候我們編了3000多萬元被有一些不同的意見大家認為是編太多有浪費公帑的情形很多人都有一些批評但這個在前幾天一樣是浪費公帑的情況下這個2.8億這個數位身份證的賠償金額哇大家都在護航 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9691.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9708.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
你可能心裡會有一點不平衡啊一樣這個可能公帑大的使用上面這個2.8億丟一個水漂下去什麼都沒有結果結果你3000多萬的考察費用就被批評成這樣我是覺得可能心裡會有點不太平衡講一個你可能更不平衡的事情喔這個除了2.8億的賠償經費之外其實我們國家並不只有賠償2.8億的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9714.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9734.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
包括前置的設置費用、硬體設置費用有3.79億已經付給廠商了還有6800萬的一些維護一些耗材的費用6800萬加起來我們國家總共在數位身份證上面實際上給這個廠商的費用大概是7.27億完全是我們3000多萬考察預算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9735.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9735.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
拜訪議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9755.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9770.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
計劃而是暫緩預算每年有6300萬的維護費用要再編列支出那我想確認一下部長因為現在是暫緩那未來我們數位身份證的推動在我們訴發部這邊我們的立場是怎麼樣包括剛剛有提到的資安我們訴發部的立場是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9774.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9776.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以您認為在資安上面我們現行的設計是沒有問題的? |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9795.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9816.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
在資安方面其實我們現在用自然人憑證在國際上我們是算有EID的國家就是因為有自然人憑證那我們當然對於自然人憑證以及現在APP行動自然人憑證的資安這個當然我們跟內政部是用最高規格去看待現在只是說這個個資大家希望一個獨立的個資會確保那這裡面有我們書發部的這個角色嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9817.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9837.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
當然我們是資安的主責機關啊但是各自會是獨立的獨立機關的意思就是不會預算變到我們不會變到你們這邊但是在成立這個算各自會的過程當中還是需要我們訴發部的一個協助我有特別就是指定我們的行政法人資安院在技術上面各自會所有需要協助資安院就好我們這邊還是要拜託我們訴發部喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9838.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9863.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
在成立這個後續身分證的這個各自委員會的上面我們也要多用點心因為現在我們國家還在每個每年要花費6300萬去做這個設備的維護拖一天工廠就浪費了20萬那再拜託我們的訴發部是那之前還有民間的訴求是內政部應該用一個專法明定說如果不是用數位不想用數位的他不會因此喪失什麼權益那這部分可能就要請內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9864.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9889.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那大家一起加油那這個考察的部分雖然說這個相較之下我們的金額比較少啦但是也不是沒有這個可以檢討的空間那我肯定我們剛剛有提供的報告包括去年度跟今年度要預計的這個出國考察嘛那在考察的數量上面我先說經費啦去年是1408萬嘛對不對那今年大概是3000變3000多3700然後被砍了600嘛對不對所以原則上預算是增倍的嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9895.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9914.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
但是因為業務也是增倍啊可是我們看我們的考察的這個會議數量去年只有大概28個會議的場次那如果說預算增倍的話那我們要參加的會議的場次應該也是要相對應接近兩倍但是我們看今年的計畫我們目前只有安排34場只有從28變成34但是我們的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9918.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9944.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們不算你原本編列的啦就是被砍過了我們是正面的情況下我們只增加六場怎麼那麼多的預算先跟委員說明有一些他是多個不同的就是機關包含像資安署、庶產署等等在資安相關的因為分成就是關鍵基礎跟公部門資安的部分資安研究的部分還有資安產業的部分所以同一個這個會議本來可能只有一小部分人參加那現在會變成比較多人參加這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9945.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9961.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
第二個是說我們也發現到包含這個機票的這個郵票的費用等等這個是他實際上是有調生所以這部分也有調生那最後就是說我們真正的新興業務委員看到如果是一場經貿談判或是跟對方互訪等等其實一個談判後面是有非常多場會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9962.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9987.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我只是提醒部長我相信公家單位的使用經費絕對有相關的包括自己部門包括城市機關的積合但是既然我們經費增加了一倍但是我們參訪數量卻只增加了六場那大家會認為他在使用上面的合理性我們有沒有浪費工廠是不是從原本的商務艙變頭等艙還是住的飯店要變高級這個是可能單純我們在書面上面看到會懷疑的部分那所以後續可能相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9989.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10003.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這個成果還是要跟我們的國安來做說明的報告另外一個請教一個比較專業的問題啦你的部長認為我們國家在未來資安風險上面遇到最大的挑戰會是什麼當然是深層SAI深層SAI |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10005.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10028.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以你認為深層式AI會對資安系統有破壞因為現在很多的供給它是好像遙控一樣它要有一個人在後面去操縱但是深層式AI它就好像把一個黑帽駭客放到我們的電腦網路裡它自己在這邊用現有的工具自己想出怎麼供給它完全不需要外面遙控那這個的狀態完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10028.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10057.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
因為現在包括我們的資安尤其是銀行的啦那一些資安的一些要破解可能都是要花現行的電腦啦可能都是要花上千年的一個時間的這個運轉的效率才有可能破解嘛那大家現在比較擔心的事情是一件事情就是量子電腦的誕生我們對於現今資安系統的建制如果說未來有任何敵對的國家他發展出了量子電腦他發展出來可以運用絕對不會跟你講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10058.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10077.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
對不對就像當初這個二戰的時候這個密碼戰的時候一定是先建立好了之後擷取你的很多情報等到你被發現的時候你已經受到了很大的傷害那我們國家對於將來量子電腦如果真的誕生了那我們國安的這個治安要我們怎麼預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10078.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10104.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我們的研究人員其實一直都積極的來參與包含美國在內制定叫後量子密碼學就是不怕量子電腦的加密方式的包含標準的制定啊等等這個我們都積極的參與所以我想這個還有一段時間不像現在現在就很大的威脅了在未來的幾年裡面我們會更新我們的系統到即使量子電腦研發出來他也不能回溯把他們攔截的這些加密訊息加以破解就是導入後量子密碼這個非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10104.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10130.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以部長的意思是說現在我們已經有正視到的這個問題那有在相關的討論當中了但是目前還沒有明確的方案出來他需要一個國際標準包含怎麼樣是跟國際的廠商用相同的標準一起導入所以是不只我們的政府部門包括將來商業的部門可能會有一套防範電子電腦的一個就是後端電子密碼學好那這部分在一樣我們國內絕對是不能夠落後於國際的絕對不會落後好以上這個謝謝部長那今天的時間到這邊謝謝部長謝謝召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10133.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10139.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
兩位委員發言完畢現在請謝依鳳委員發言主席好我想要請唐部長請部長委員好我不用問 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10157.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10171.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我不用問說那個你會不會續任齁我看今天好像交通委員會法人問津喔都沒有人跟我像昨天一樣在搶排隊喔是不是因為昨天我沒有在這邊所以等一下你會不會續任 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10173.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10194.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
當然我們政務官去留是長官來決定是喔那應該是不會續任是不是我剛剛講了長官來決定還有我想要請問一下就是其實我那天也去財政委員會問了就是經管會的主委關於打炸的問題那這是一個跨部會的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10194.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10219.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那他對於他自己在就是說銀行端的部分攔阻就是金流這個部分他認為他的就是說成效是顯著的卓越我有看到金額的數量包括警示帳戶什麼對金額的數量的確有增加非常多但是民眾就是說一般而言認為政府部門打詐的成效非常低 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10220.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10242.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那有可能是我們到現在還在接收到就是說不管是簡訊也好不管是在網路上也好都有相關的資訊的就是說很像就是對就是可能假冒就是郵政總局假冒其他單位公部門的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10243.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10268.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
來就是說要求你輸入個資或者是希望你可以的那這個部分為什麼我們目前還沒有辦法有效的攔住謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明我們其實協助檢警調去年每天都下架就是接近上百個就三萬多個這種國外的這種一戰式詐騙的網域但是委員剛剛講得非常好就是說即使我們下架了意思是說你點不會被騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10269.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10269.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
而且﹐而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10291.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10302.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
而且金管會因為那天大家都在問金管會說為什麼Google跟臉書就是好像Google比較快臉書比較慢臉書說要到6月嘛對 那是什麼樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10303.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10322.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我想這個有兩個原因啦,一個是說臉書雖然他現在已經對於政治類廣告,比方選舉期間的廣告他有一套KYC就是做身份認證的方法,你要拍身份證正反面等等但他這個並不是像數位簽章一樣快速用機器就可以驗證,他後面有一些人工作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10322.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10336.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以Facebook會擔心說如果所有投資廣告都要那個量很大的話他受不受得了所以我們現在推電子簽商法就是一方面是在省臉書的麻煩就是他可以用機器直接就驗數位簽商不用再去看這個身份證是不是會合成的等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10337.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10359.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以他現在是用手動的,是用人工的而不是用那為什麼我們在申請就是說臉書的數位認證的時候你還是就是說你還是好像他還是是用對他好像還是用就是說用感覺上啦因為我們也不知道他後台的作業是怎麼樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10361.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10377.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
對因為你不知道他到底是用電腦驗還是用人工驗這是無法他當然先用電腦篩過啦就是說如果看起來就是假的當然電腦可以會去判斷但是如果只拍身份證反面他的問題是這樣就是說可能這個人他為了辦別的業務提供身份證反面出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10377.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10399.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那個人把他攔截住了或那個人冒他的名再去跟臉書去申請驗證這就是因為這個身份證反面本身他並不是等於蓋章或者是硬件證明他沒有附著在一個文件上所以這個情況下你不知道他提供是真的他提供還他提供給別人、別人在提供那我們透過電子信用法就可以杜絕這樣的情況他提供就是為了這次的申請來提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10400.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10429.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以那到底能不能我說這是你說的嘛就是說希望儘快三讀通過可以就是遏止就是說相關的網路上面的詐騙但是喔其實這只是臉書的只是一環其實我們的簡訊手機也是還是收到這樣子的連結啊我也常常收到啊是不是也許我們就是我其實就是不理或者怎麼樣可是一般的民眾呢還有我們就提到了有數位落差嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10430.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10445.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
有一些人是有一些的民眾是有數位落差的有一些的中高領者對於數位落差可能又更高那這個部分根本都沒有相關的就是說作為啊是不是才會導致民眾認為詐騙依然很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10451.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10467.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
回答委員的追詢其實像台水、台電或假冒公部門的這個之前是非常猖獗那這部分我們推出111之後用這樣子來詐騙成功的就大幅減少因為大家知道不是111假的這是一個另外一個是說很多接到詐騙簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10468.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10494.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
在一年前的狀態是說他到某個電商買了東西然後透過物流或什麼有人掌握到說他現在買了這本書或者這個商品然後他馬上傳個簡訊說解除分期付款失敗啊什麼的那因為他裡面會提到這個具體的電話號碼跟什麼時候要送到你家所以這個時候他很容易取信於人那這部分我們也透過讓這個大的電商都導入所謂物流銀碼就是你的手機號碼不會再提供給物流了的這個方式到現在已經基本杜絕這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10496.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10520.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
對阿我是說這是你目前認知的情況但是跟民眾認知的情況還是有一段的差距我覺得假冒名人的廣告這個是現在民怨最大的地方除了假冒我是說除了假冒名人以外其實很多還是我還是常常收到那個還是有很多別的啦當然雖然說有一些時候那個我們的手機號碼會告訴你說喔這可能是詐騙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10521.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10551.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
但是很多的部分在投資或者是在就是相關的貸款等等的還是層出不窮這才會是就是民眾認為詐騙依然存在民眾對於政府打詐的成效不彰以及大家認為說各部門都覺得自己做得很好那為什麼這個打詐成效民眾還是沒有覺得我一直覺得沒有電子簽案法這個真的是一個大問題就麻煩委員支持如果可以的話謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10553.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10565.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
謝謝委員發言完畢現在請鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請游浩委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10582.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10585.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
請部長請唐部長委員好謝謝 部長剛才蠻多的委員那其實也都針對的數位發展部包括部長的許多業務尤其是在這一年多來大家所推動的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10603.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10632.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
大家當然有飽有扁啦那大家是期待甚深但是在於打詐防詐的部分以及包括治安的這個發展那其實許多委員都有期待都有批評那也希望說數位發展部能夠更好能夠加速來改進那對於這些的批評對於許多的質疑那想問一下部長會不會對數位發展部的同仁感到委屈 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10633.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10658.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明我想我們絕對是看到這些批評很多是很有建設性的批評會不會感到委屈會同仁感到委屈我會覺得說同仁做得這麼辛苦但是他就是做到這麼多事實上是大家的感受是確實有些部分沒有再出問題了這個部分我是覺得我很肯定同仁至於建設性的批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10658.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10676.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10676.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10697.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
當然同樣的我就直接延續了不管是打詐防詐的部分其實確實需要去加強因為在南投縣其實之前數位發展部花了幾百億的部分在強調著打詐有多努力還有多大的一個成果但是在民調上的時候其實是有八成的民眾還是不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10698.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10726.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那個是就是中時電子報Youtube的對這我知道那沒關係但是未來來講的話我記得在之前上個會期曾經有委員有要求速發部未來可以用這個就是替代役啊數位替代役來協助這個南投啊一些偏鄉的長輩來進行這個這個包括叫他們辨識真假訊息啊還帶到各社區機構啊那這個部分後來有下文嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10726.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10755.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們就是透過數位據點的方式喔 這個我們有積極的在辦理但是這個積極辦理的情況之下 難道在民間還有民眾啊那就到最後還被騙了800萬再騙到3000萬那就到最後回頭來講 這個宣導其實是非常的有待加強很多我覺得還是要在源頭啦 像今天反復提到電子簽賬法就是我們宣導是到大家已經收到了 要他不要去點但是可能一開始就不要讓他看這個廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10756.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10774.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
反正是希望說數位發展不能夠加強那同樣的延續了剛才許多委員所提到的這個數位身分證的部分啊那數位身分證的話其實目前來講我們看到暫緩可能暫緩的部分內政部大概一直強調的是資安的問題還是數位的問題那我想問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10777.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10788.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
像吳正勝主委他也直接講說這個過程中他到最後原本是10億到時候調節金額落在2.8億但事實上這是由全民買單但內政部他也強調說這都是在資安的問題他們現在也沒有辦法來去進行這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10792.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10822.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那我想問一下內政部這樣子對於資安以及對於數位發展來講你怎麼看?我想先還原一下就是當時內政部也好或民間的人權團體的期待是有一個獨立的各資保護會各資保護會當然跟資安是有關的但是各資保護會是獨立的意思是說它也必須來監督像我們數位部有沒有過分蒐集各資過分利用那現在這個部分已經成立了所以說未來的數位身份證還要推行嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10822.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10844.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
就是這個獨立的各自專責機關以及如果內政部要立一個專法這個是當時民間提的兩大條件那數位發展部支持數位身份證繼續推行嗎我們在國際評比上面我們其實已經有數位的身份證件就是自然憑證跟現在行動的自然憑證自然憑證歸自然憑證因為在目前來講有完成到這個數位身份證的國家總共有多少國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10845.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10861.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我剛剛提到120多國裡面包含我們喔1208國嗎包含我們喔但是問題是你說的是那個自然憑證可是問題是數位身份證跟自然憑證是不同的阿他等於有點像自然憑證跟實際判證這不能這不能魚目混珠阿好像貼在一起這是兩卡合一阿這個是兩碼子是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10863.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10882.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
當初在數位身分證原本的構想本來就不是用自然憑證那是一個延伸甚至加強甚至一開始自然憑證還想要再整合T-Load還包括政府機關的資料交換還想整合駕照跟健保卡T-Load我們有在做問題是這個整合的數位身分證未來還要再做推行 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10883.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10884.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以說這個身份證就沒有要做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10903.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10926.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們當時我在院裡擔任政委的時候當時的立場其實就是大家應該要可以自由選擇就是你裡面要有自然憑證規則那所以說所以我就直接就叫部長那內政部他說是職案的問題那你那時候有擔任政務委員那你也在這個過程中曾經都介入協調那所以以現在來講數位發展部的角色就是反對再去推行數位身份證 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10927.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10949.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
剛剛提到的是說我們這邊全力支持包含獨立的各資會的設立現在還沒有那未來如果內政部要訂一個專法也得到這個獨立各資會的同意的話那個時候才有所謂要不要繼續做的問題那時候我記得在相關討論內政部曾經也說他這四五個法規的部分其實目前還可以去補充在數位身份證上面的一個運用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10950.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10962.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那所以說現在要等到訂定專法之後才要推行那部分是不是其實應該要問內政部我們這邊看到的是說我們的資安的管理包含現有的自然憑證行動自然憑證他資安無虞這個這個我們負責啊貼肉也是我們負責對那所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10966.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10989.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
現在來講的話因為以前啦以前的話因為在民眾所講當初我記得蘇貞昌在當院長的時候說的意思來講秀才不出門能知天下事要變成秀才不出門能辦天下事那這個是想要我們來陪他對那現在變成說民眾覺得秀才遇到江湖郎中所以到最後把這個數位身分證暫緩了之後他這個東西就無極了 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10992.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10996.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
就是獨立的各自會要先成立這個不管我或者民間也都是相同的立場那這個部分我們全力幫助獨立各自會成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11020.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11038.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我的想法是這樣就是說因為數位發展部大家對於部內是期望甚深那在內政部他一直在這個數位身份證的時候又說都是資安的問題那各自的問題那同時他一邊在印資身份證一邊做規劃的這個過程確實就有資安的餘力沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11040.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11042.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
政府去做額外的利用那變成是政府機關要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11058.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11085.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以就變成一個獨立的各自會來監督政府機關那沒關係因為時間有限本期還是希望說在這個目前來講全民買單2.81的這個事情內政部他一直在回說是資安的問題那如果說數位發展部過去來講你也擔任過政務委員那你對這案子也非常的熟悉那你剛才的立場跟態度其實當然說講政人憑證之外其實你是支持這個數位身份證 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11086.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11102.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我支持獨立個資會先成立至於要不要訂專法這是內政部跟這個獨立個資會沒有時間回答我的問題因為事實上印那個身份證的權責那個法的主管機關並不是我們我知道 這我清楚但是因為內政部他們還是回推到是數位跟資安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11103.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11125.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以所以我還是簡單講時間到那我還是要跟部長講就是說當大家都期待著這個資安跟個資的部分能夠做充分的一個保障的時候那居然有數位發展部我希望部長也能夠拿出gas還能夠讓內政部早日把這個數位身份證信能夠推動不要對不要讓人民再次當這個冤大頭謝謝委員質詢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11128.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11130.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
主席,請唐部長上台請唐部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11153.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11179.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
委員好唐部長您這份報告寫了69頁然後我蠻辛苦的看完了其實感覺起來蠻不舒服的因為蠻像在作文比賽您剛開始第一段第一頁第一段就充滿了所謂的傳統價值說三發、社發、產發、突發我還覺得說你乾脆說你發我發大家發就好比較快一點像這樣的口號治國然後浪費我們納稅人的錢本席認為其實蠻不妥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11180.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11202.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
請在這邊直接很快速的回答你們上面有講你們對社會共融、對提高提升產業轉型跟提升應變韌性的績效在哪裡請給我三項的數據好的第一個我們透過像111這樣子的簡訊平台確保說所有的公部門甚至包含地方的政府他在送簡訊以及其他私訊的傳達的時候都可以很容易的被辨識 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11203.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11223.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以不是只有數位部自己或中央機關而已是同時讓所有的包含國營、事業、社會這第1件我們已經發了所有機關加起來570多萬則出去年底會有1億則這第1個數據那第二個呢我們現在透過我們電子簽章法這個修法已經送到貴院我們現在如果經濟部把這個廣告的主管機關過來的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11224.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11243.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我們就可以希望能夠重現我們在電商這邊我們電商這邊在一年多前是高風險賣場在165大概都是我們主管的大型電商現在已經歸零5個月了這第二個數據我其實我另外更關心的是說這幾年間其實我們最關心的這幾年間中華民國國人最關心的是不是能夠成功的打擊詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11245.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11262.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
唐部長你說你們落實行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版但是老實講本席實在看不出來你們真正的成效在哪裡尤其是說你們通報的通報數從1、2年單月最高1600件下降到今年1月份的時候已經到每月200件這遊戲點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11264.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11269.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這是遊戲點數,你剛那個數據是遊戲點數遊戲點數,那其實這個數據來講的話你說台灣的詐欺人說台灣的受詐騙通報人數只會有兩百千嗎?那是遊戲點數嗎?是我們主管的各個行業裡面的某一個OK,好,那我想請問你們這數據從哪裡來的?這個當然是從165啊,就是遊戲點數跟電話的平台所以說其實是有通報兩百項 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11290.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11309.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
其實委員可能了解就是說現在不管電商還是遊戲點數因為我們這個聯防成功已經不是詐騙集團最愛用的方式了老實說我其實在這邊想要問請問一件事比較像傳理學上的事情就是所謂錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕這件事唐部長您是否認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11310.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11329.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
您若是指這個數位身份證的話,我相信這個政策它在推行的時候是因為社會上有更多的期待。請問講起來不是說這錯誤政策,政策面錯誤與否,這我不敢講。只是說數位身份證畢竟來講無論如何嘎然而止。然後目前來講沒有任何一個政府官員為此件事來說,來說聲道歉。花了2.8億,內政部長說這不是賠償,這是耗損的金額。 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11336.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11354.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
然後沒有一個沒有一個官員為這個錯誤的決策做出任何負責道歉而且最後面還是說好像最後面感覺好像是我們這些政府官員們還是有功的那將損耗降到最低然後全民應該給你們拍拍手是嗎這是你們覺得這樣子最後面的態度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11354.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11368.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我先正面回答委員的問題我不認為說當時回應社會上面對於專法跟獨立各自會的需求這件事情表示本來的政策就是像您剛講嘎然而止是說我們要先回應社會上對這兩個的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11370.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11373.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
請問部長您到底認為說數位身份證這件事到底是好還是不好?那未來會再執行嗎?要執行如何執行? |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11386.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11412.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我想身份證這個現在大家用的這個版本他在防衛上面現在碰到非常大的挑戰這個是絕對需要解決的這第一點第二個如果是內政部在換發身份證的時候同時給予自然人憑證的這個選項這個是屬於內政部的權責但是第三個我想在個資會不會因為這樣子被政府收集太多或目的外利用等等需要一個專法跟一個獨立個資會當年民間的這兩個訴求我也是贊成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11414.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11432.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好,那唐部長其實我們都知道說今年的數位部預算多了今天將近多三分之一那足足18億的預算當然在我記得新聞報道上面寫說我們數位發展部的經費雖然多三分之一但是在14個部會裡面還是比較便宜的據說有其他部會的業務會移轉過來請問具體有哪些業務移轉到了數位發展部為什麼移轉過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11443.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11460.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
如果現在是從現在往未來講的話我們最重要的一個就是剛才講到的網路的廣告平台業我們爭取從經濟部移過來經濟部已經初步表示同意當然行政院還要做最後的這個裁奪那過來之後我們對Facebook對於Google才具有目的事業主管機關的這個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11462.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11490.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
為什麼問到這個原因就是在這裡因為還是回到全國國人現在最關心的是如何遏止詐騙如何讓詐騙犯能夠獲得應有的懲罰然後如何遏止預防詐騙再度發生而如果這個粉絲專頁是這個粉絲專頁沒有藍勾勾那基本上沒有這個Blue Check就表示說這不是我本身的專頁而這個粉絲專頁現在還在我剛剛在下面在被選的時候我發現這一個假帳號還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11492.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11513.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
而再的原因是因為說我1月13日當選國會議員1月18日這個甲反專就成立而到目前為止我已經有甚至這個人數現在還在加那我們也沒有辦法去支持他現在剛剛前一秒10分鐘之內他還在上面那我想像這樣的問題已經不是只有我個人的問題所有的國會議員所有的名人像這樣的名人詐騙已經變成是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11515.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11525.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
詐騙集團最喜歡利用、利用名人的關懷來去操作的目的來去引誘這些不知道的人那想請問唐部長數位發展部在未來如何遏止跟協助打擊此等犯罪行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11526.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11549.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
委員講得非常好如果未來我們真的成為網路廣告業的主管機關而且在大院支持底下電子簽章法新版可以三讀通過那我們接下來會做的事情就是會透過數位簽章的方式來驗證說這個人他是不是真的跟您同名同姓或者跟誰同名同姓這樣子那這件事情就可以有效的把這種假冒名人的好評票投資廣告等等可以減到最低 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11549.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11568.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那現在呢?我現在是完全受害者,不是以國會議員身份之外,還是以一個受害者身份在這邊講這件事情。如果今天不是我有國會殿堂的這個平台可以發聲的話,其他很多人像我一樣的人是無法在這個機會跟數位發展部來去講說我們該怎麼辦的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11569.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11586.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那請問如果現在該怎麼做呢?我們現在是協助165就是刑事局那邊跟這些大的平台有一個快速的通道所以還是要到165的網站或者是到警察去檢舉我也同意這並不是源頭防止的做法這就是為什麼我們要推數位簽章法、電子簽章法以及請經濟部把廣告主管機關移過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11586.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11615.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
部長如果說是今天如果是我我是國會議員我有機會跟你這樣講說你有165講到之後然後未來這邊的中央政府會因為我的案子去辦特案辦理但是如果一般的民眾遇到這樣的狀況他是求助我們的時候該怎麼辦這是165的LINE你也可以看到說這邊有點進去這邊另外還有另外一個平台點進去之後另外一個平台會轉送把他們轉送到別的地方去再去做另外一方面的不管是口號也好還是話術上面的剝削那我想請問這個時候你該怎麼去防治呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11616.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11618.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們去年已經下架了幫助刑事局下架了三萬多件所以這個點擊連到國外網站你會看到被165扣押這件事情這個是我們有做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11638.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11665.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
但是我也很同意說光是這樣子是不夠因為這個還不是源頭嘛這個是後面的部分還是要有人發現所以我們現在有做主動的掃描去專門掃描說還沒有被害人的情況下我們先掃到看起來像仿冒的等等我希望這個事情數位發展部未來不知道說唐部長您會不會還在任但是不管怎麼樣數位發展部在未來針對科技詐騙這件事情我覺得應該把它放在first priority源頭房價絕對我們first priority好 謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11667.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11672.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
好,林委員發言完畢,現在請何欣淳委員發言。謝謝昭緯,那我們請唐鳳部長。請唐部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11685.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11711.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
委員好部長好我想今天很多委員跟本席我一樣都聚焦在這個打詐那打詐呢我想我們國家隊第一部在小英總統曾經也參加過這個一個您主辦的一個典禮就是政府111短碼簡訊系統那現在呢111政府專屬的短碼簡訊系統這個平台已經啟用了那現在目前多少個政府單位採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11711.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11729.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
已經70多個機關採購了到年底我們會預期大概會發1億折出去他們採購的大概快2000萬折目前才前3年我現在我拿到的資料比如說我希望數位發展部是不是可以再用各式各樣多元的方式去宣傳、宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11731.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11748.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
教導民眾如何快速的辨別那像我在這個頁面上一個111那當時候是由小英總統參加平台啟用的時候他發出來第一通那在提醒大家牢記111政府專屬的簡訊短碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11751.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11762.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我再請教一次因為要講清楚很多人還是不了解那111這一個三個數字有可能再被copy仿冒嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11763.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11787.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
不可能,我們不管是國內為何不可能,你要講清楚對,謝謝我們一般人申請一個手機號碼用它來傳簡訊一定是09什麼什麼它是10個號碼那如果是國際的就更長它會加多少多少那在我們這邊的短碼一開頭的只有政府機關可以來使用所以111這個短碼就好像165一樣也不會有人能夠冒充165 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11789.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11805.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
短碼一開頭的只有政府機關可以來申請那其他單位都不能申請對不對所以我們要讓民眾知道這一個重要的訊息這個111的短碼是不可能被申請也不可能被copy所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11806.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11835.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
僅此一家就是政府的簡訊平台委員講得太好了就是用紙板的話要讓一般的我們的民眾瞭解他才會幫忙宣傳那也才能有助於我們為什麼要用這個平台嘛那我另外一個要求我希望更多的政府單位相關單位國營事業都要加入我現在有看到兩個是跟我們民生最相關的兩個體系還沒有加入 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11836.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11857.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
一個叫做天然氣公司一個叫做各公司的銀行體系這個來部長第一個天然氣公司是我們退伏會轉投資可不可以請我們事務發布主動跟退伏會來商量來推動所有全國25家的天然氣公司通通加入 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11857.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11879.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們可以來主動推動這個共同供應企業看是不是有哪個政府機關當作他們的總代表先從跟一般人生活最相關的這個角度來想起哪些是跟人民生活最相關的政府單位跟國營事業或是相關的體系所以水電再來天然氣再來銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11883.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11897.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
關股的銀行當然我們請財政部可以來幫忙我們民間的銀行民營的銀行也可以請財政部請銀行公會來幫忙大家一起來使用這樣子的一個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11897.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11913.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
可不可以部長民營的銀行以我所知現在他們在想的是另外再用他自己的短盤因為一開頭是表示是政府發的好那如果一開始表示是政府發的那他們銀行體系國營、關股銀行可不可以加入 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11913.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11937.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這個我們就是用共同供應契約的方式我們盡快來協定那你說的民營銀行沒有辦法用一開頭的簡訊短碼那他另外創一個系統我們在宣傳的力道上是不是都要讓民眾能夠簡單直接就認知知道說這是真的不是假的我想像55688就不是一開頭現在大家都認得了所以我覺得還是短碼這件事情也是可以宣傳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11938.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11953.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好那所以第一個跟退府會商量所有的天然氣公司這個你要去好好的研究一下要去邀他們加入喔第二個我們的關國銀行那明明銀行另外一個體系我們又如何跟銀行公會去要求去 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11954.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11974.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
合作我覺得這很重要我們盡快辦理而且會書面跟委員說我希望是越來越多啦越來越多啦能夠呢建立我們111的這個簡訊平台這叫什麼這也品牌啦對啊就讓民眾知道說這是真的啊你剛剛說僅此一家嘛別無分號僅此一家別無分號啦所以這是真的不是假的啦好不好來第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11976.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
11997.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這兩天大家無啥啥而且搞不清楚狀況Meta大當機甚至連美國政府的關係都緊張短短的那兩個小時我相信很多人都不知道發生什麼事連我自己也不知道為什麼我的這個FB不能用我的帳號被登出部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
11998.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12014.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
你有沒有站在一般的民眾用戶的感受一下說我被害了是不是我的資料有沒有全部消失了我現在要去哪裡問問個出個所以然來在發生的當下沒有人可以問你知道這件事嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12015.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12042.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我知道這件事而且那是因為我平常有在用X.com就以前的Twitter所以臉書的人還要跑去Twitter上面解釋發生什麼事情對所以最後是由Twitter這邊的X上面才知道這個狀況啊對不對那所以包括IG臉書然後Trade通通甚至還有其他的通通都不能用平台那我就請教一下因為呢這個Meta在台灣沒有落地那如果發生像這樣的事情我們找誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12044.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12058.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
在台灣其實是有落地的公司是有落地那接下來就問你了接下來來下一頁那因為這一次的事件聽說祖克伯的淨資產損失了880億但是呢我們消失了那兩個小時所有搭檔機的那兩個小時我們所有的用戶的損失誰來賠償要找誰賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12065.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12079.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我說的損失不是我們個人在使用也許沒有盈利行為那很多人是用這個平台在盈利做生意在生活的請問那怎麼辦你這是你是專家嘛你可以告訴我怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12084.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12110.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我想我們現在在跟內政部一起跟各部會一起在你一個叫做打詐的就是專法名字還沒有確定了在這裡面就是在講這些達到一定規模當然臉書已經達到不管什麼規模他都達到了達到一定規模的這個境外的這個廣告平台他必須不是只是設代理人而已還必須要在您剛剛關心的這一些包含他的這個消費者保護防詐等等這一方面要盡到一定的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12111.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12135.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那這部分我們之前一個挑戰就是說經濟部到目前為止雖然他原德答應但是還沒有真的把廣告平台業的目的數的主管機關移給我們所以我們現在是比較是側面瞭解的狀況那一旦那現在的主管機關是誰那我去找他因為廣告業其實之前沒有分成網路或者是實體所以包含燈箱、扛棒什麼這些東西他登記的時候都還是登記在經濟部商業署 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12135.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12156.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
可是這樣子的一個邏輯是一個好像遠古時代的邏輯欸我們現在台灣已經進步到21世紀了我們的網路世界都已經到上太空了我們的法規制度怎麼還在這樣子的遠古時代本來我們也要把防火電跟電商應該分開嘛 對不對我們政府部門的腳步不夠快嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12156.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12186.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我們是主動跟經濟部要求我們最近像那個電商的部分我們跟經濟部談妥了我們就說那可不可以盡快就把這個也是同樣無實體網路平台廣告趕快給我們這樣所以第一個請跟經濟部講那現在這個狀況那我的球場我用戶的權益誰來政府可以幫我們人民主張什麼那我們可以讓我們人民知道說欸你如果因為這一次的這一個這個兩個小時消失不見的大蕩機而損失的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12187.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12201.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
該由誰來主張該向誰主張我覺得這個是政府應該有的責任第二個我跟你講我更害怕的是什麼你看到這個標題這個全球大宕機的原因不尋常有三個組織宣稱是他們聯手發動攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12206.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12222.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那你看喔全球最高端的這個駭客供給可以讓Meta集團裡面的平台當機了兩個多小時甚至連美國政府都要出面來關心瞭解這是一件非常非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12224.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12237.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
非常非常重要是不是所以這裡就是我一直要求我們政府的各個單位不管是在防詐或者是在平台的所有用戶的權益上我們的資安所以你剛剛講的電子簽章法我只提醒一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12238.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12239.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
謝謝何委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12265.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12277.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
委員發言完畢現在請徐巧欣委員發言謝謝主席我們請唐部長請唐部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12282.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12305.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
部長好我想我們本來對數位發展部的想像很多比方說遠端工作、線上開會、線上參與國際會議等等結果沒想到我們的數位發展部的發展好像比其他的單位還要更加的傳統不只被批評花了太多錢出國我們還發現你們花了非常多的錢租用辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12305.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12315.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
從民國111年8月27日掛牌至今一年半左右我問一下我們的部長我們光是辦公室的搬遷預算總共花了多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12316.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12320.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
您說是做簡單的室內裝潢嗎?簡單的室內裝潢齁?那我們整體的包含星光跟顏品我們的裝潢費花了多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12338.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12352.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
您這個已經寫在這上面了所以嘛,你看喔,成立1.5年,我們呢整體包含是租金,包含是辦公室的裝修我們花了預算就4.09億,決算是3.9億欸唐鳳部長你會不會覺得這個經費太高了 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12357.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12378.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
不過我們向上集中的積房本來在積房一次性的建置本來各部會積房那我問一個問題我們數位發展部的會議室跟新聞發布室的採購花了多少錢上面有寫但我希望你可以自己講出來是因為我們本來的那個新聞會議室就是用NCC的那不管是麥克風啊收音啊等等大概都有一些要 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12379.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12399.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
麥克風跟收音我問的是我們光是會議室跟新聞發布室花了多少錢您剛剛黃底的這邊是一千萬嘛一千萬然後再加上追加這個65嘛65所以花了一千多萬只做了新聞發布室跟會議室你剛剛說麥克風具體來說這一千萬花到哪裡去了跟大家做個說明吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12400.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12426.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
因為我們本來的用NCC的那個新聞發佈室如果是要做遠距的會議的時候它有包含這個麥克風收音回收還有它的音場等等的問題所以我們發現這個問題之後我們就一次性的把它更新成比較新的設備麥克風換了多少的麥克風你們有幾間會議室啊新聞發佈室跟會議室上面這個花了一千多萬的總共幾間它是在一樓裡面的我們開大的會議的一間然後跟旁邊新聞發佈室另外一間兩個是對面 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12427.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12443.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
只有兩間花一千多萬還有一個記者的這個等待室就三間吧記者的等待室裡面的麥克風等等的也都要重做不只是麥克風包含視訊設備嗎視訊設備但是那為什麼你們現在開會的時候常常你都是自己你們大家預算花了這麼多飛出國去開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12444.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12469.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我也沒很早看到你們說線上會議裡面去做什麼今天大家質疑的是你們不只是花了很多的錢出國開會編了這麼多的預算我們就連只是會議室、新聞發布室兩間我算你三間花一千多萬我回應一下委員我在出國的時候其實公文是照簽我視訊會議照開並不是因為出國所以就不管國內的事情所以這是為什麼需要這種設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12470.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12492.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以你的意思是說別的單位都沒有這樣子的一個問題我在問一下我們在這個自由民主聯盟的這個出席上面那我們有參加這個自由線上聯盟去年9月20號那因應新技術帶來的風險等等你說AI的應用規範要這個社會同樣的推動然後呢講了很多那我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12493.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12510.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
你們在國外說了這麼多AI管制我們在台灣具體目前的法規裡面你們已經推動通過了哪幾項AI相關的管制法規這裡的我們如果是講整個政府的話那在台灣在投資詐騙上面在身為的這個色情影像上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12511.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12531.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
在選舉的干預上面等等都有專門針對身為或不一定是身為任何AI去做這一方面的加重處罰那為什麼我們在台灣的資安的問題還這麼多、詐騙的問題還這麼多但是我們卻到國外去跟大家講說我們做了哪一些的相關的這些AI的法規推定但是我們在台灣發現是少的可憐 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12532.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12556.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我們剛剛講到的這些在其他國家也未必有這第一個第二個像電子簽商法的修法我們已經提到立法院來了很多其他國家也未必有那也是我們董文君委員提了之後現在才跟進的我問一下自由民主聯盟我們是不是有你們有一行人15個人去去開會這個就包含就是美國的國務卿布林肯嗎或者是自由民主聯盟參與的這個目標裡面哪一點跟數位發展有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12558.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12584.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
欸 這這裡面講的就是要保護線上的因為AI帶來的身為的威脅啊 這個就是數位的工作啊你們當時所提的計畫的目的叫做參與推動民主合作組織展現台灣跟國際推動民主事務的堅定決心你們都沒有談到所謂的數位沒有 我的意思是說你們今天數位發展部去的應該要上面的目的說明就要跟數位發展的內容有關突然的話我們就補助其他的單位去或者是外交部去不就好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12585.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12607.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
但是民主峰會特別是第二次討論就是怎麼因應聲稱是AI啊那你們在寫報告的時候你們目的上面你就應該把這些內容都寫進來而不是讓大家認為說你們花了太多的錢出國但是都沒有做跟數位發展有關的事情這點請你們要必須要改進當然我們會盡可能的來強調好 謝謝謝謝好 許委員發言完畢現在請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12621.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12638.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
主席請唐部長請唐部長委員好部長好在我的選區那有一個本來有一個南門的中繼市場他花了1.8億蓋起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12641.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12656.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
但南門市場改建完成之後因為東門市場的也有改建的需求就很希望能夠搬到這個南門市場中繼站嘛結果後來這個我們的中央政府就是不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12657.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12677.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
他就說不行我要把這個南門市場的中繼站拆掉就在南門市場中繼站的隔壁1.8億的拆掉再花個幾千萬蓋一個新的東門市場中繼站你會覺得這事好像跟你沒有關係對不對因為我們沒有要去那邊可是你們行政院回答我是什麼你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12678.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12701.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
他說因為東門市場中繼站那個南門市場中繼站拆掉以後要做蘇發部的辦公大樓應該是去年今年1月已經確定我們是到行二了我跟今天我們行部長說得太好了那行政人在騙我啊當時那是當時的狀況我們今年是因為行二 結果當時的狀況你搞了半天我只問你嘛南門市場中繼站如果給東門市場可以省多少錢省1.8億吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12703.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12730.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那是我們現在被配到的因為我們都是聽行政院的安排喂 你不要那麼緊張我講的不是你我要講的是什麼你蓋辦公室的名聲已經響亮到還要逼著南門市場中繼站拆掉雖然說最後你沒決定在那更好笑你沒有決定在那結果最後還是要拆掉你已經名聲響亮到行政院是拿要蓋速發部辦公大樓為由 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12732.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12753.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
就把南門市場中基站拆掉在隔壁我那時候就說你要蓋為什麼不蓋在隔壁你既然隔壁就是那個地也是國有的為什麼剛剛徐曉鑫講到你的辦公室我跟我們的部長說你們叫數位發展部對不對我看你叫出國發展部好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12754.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12780.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
你叫辦公室發展部好了你叫點面先發展部好了你叫數位中介法發展部好了我在問你齁剛南門市場中繼站已經是一個例子齁你的辦公室蓋到出名齁結果害政府公帑1.8億為了你拆掉結果你竟然也沒搬那第二個我要問你啦我想請問你現在大家很關心的那個數位身份證的事情你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12781.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12801.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
剛剛有提到啊就是當時民間的要求是要獨立的個資會跟內政部如果要推要訂專法搞了半天賠了2.8億請問是誰出當然以內政部的跟工程會的這個仲裁納稅人出啦那麼簡單沒有關係你知道你的任內當中齁說真的很多人都搞不清楚我們到底書發部在幹什麼沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12803.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12816.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
沒錯啊,很多民眾搞不清楚啊大家應該,好比像說領大家,大家你的政績有一個大家搞得很清楚大家領六千的時候大家應該知道大家可能知道你的點面現發展部做得很好那個有五萬多個中小的商家請問什麼時候要結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12817.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12842.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
五萬多家什麼時候你的點面線平台要結束啦沒有那個平台是轉型去做包含像長照醫療阿等等阿轉型就是今天平台停校的最好的理由啦你3月就要告終了啦然後呢申請率就是三個百分點不能這樣算你是把所有的公司沒關係你要美化數字你提個報告給我我要再跟您說齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12843.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12862.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
大家在批評你的出國發展部我想請教您您112年參加27場國際會議跟一場考察嘛 對不對你知道出國寫報告這件事情嘛 對不對外交部寫多少報告出國報告你知道嗎外交部寫13個出國報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12865.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12889.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我們數位發展部真的很適合當外交部啦你寫了26個報告 對不對當然你說報告多你覺得是比較勤勞啦 對不對一時外交部就不勤勞我要告訴你的是今天大家期待數位發展部民眾最期待你做什麼事情就是跨國建立防炸或者是防潮非常好你主動講到防炸了我跟你講你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
12891.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
12914.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我的臉書被冒名使用已經十幾次了請問你怎麼解決這個問題啊?要通過電子槍法的修法並且把廣告的主板機對啦都推給未來你部長當幾年了?我們電子槍法已經送到立法院了不是未來啊啊?已經送到立法院你當幾年部長了?一年半一年半部長民進黨執政幾年了?八年八年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
12915.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
12938.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那你現在跟我講那你跟林國成講說人民如果覺得防詐不利是這是政治壓力這是什麼政治壓力啊?就是民意的壓力啊當然了這就是人民對你不滿的壓力跟政治壓力什麼關係?訴發部再來問你數位中介法現在怎麼樣?誰推的?數位中介法從頭到尾都是NCC在討論的一個案子啊對啊以上好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
12942.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
12957.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
努委員發言完畢現在請李坤成委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長請唐部長委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
12963.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
12980.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
今天早上媒體大家也很關心就是說關於防炸跟打炸這部分然後部長的回答就是說速發部門的防炸已經有很多的肯定但我認為這可以當作內部的激勵跟鼓勵但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
12980.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13005.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
跟民眾的一般的期待還是有落差啦。部長你覺得咧?我們前面有講是在我們主管的電商等等方面有一個前提。政府是一體的。政府是一體的。就是說今天這一個防詐打詐這個速發部、內政部、法務部、金管會都有這個責任。所以這個政府是一體的。是聯防。對啊對啊對啊。所以說你自己覺得說你做得很好那是說其他做不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13006.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13035.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們是要主動的接過責任像網路廣告我們主動跟經濟部說要不要交給我們來負責就是說現在大家對於這個打炸防炸這個東西是大家都很關心大家也期待說這個速發部能夠做更多的事情這是大家一個期待那你說做得不錯那當然是你業務的部分但是我相信跟民眾的整體的這個期待還是有點落差這個我這個請這個部長大概再想一下那請那個請教一下這個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13036.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13050.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
現在國人最關心的這個三大網路的這個國安的問題齁,包含這個網路詐騙、網路的假新聞、網路的駭客的攻擊齁,那請問一下這個速發部的這個業務報告裡面,這個有哪一個問題沒有琢磨到的? |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13051.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13069.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
當然駭客攻擊是我們資安的主則所以我們寫了非常多關於這方面的事情防詐的部分是源頭防詐來處理那當然因為您提到新聞這個字新聞是新聞業那我們並不是新聞業的主管機關對那所以說假新聞這部分打擊假新聞這部分也不關訴發部的責任業務範疇囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13074.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13098.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
因為這個主要還是我們看到的是境外的訊息公式 這個公式它不一定是用新聞的形式來做當然啦 那不一定是新聞的方式 有很多的方式啦它也不一定是假的 它很多是激化仇恨 激化對立 激化什麼它用個人評論的方法做 因此無關真假 但是它讓看到的人心裡非常不舒服但是個人評論也有關 也有假訊息參加在裡面 這也有可能的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13099.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13101.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
對,但是我的意思是說其實現在大部分不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13129.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13145.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
不處理新聞是一種訊息嗎新聞也是訊息的一種啊所以我們是分析那個爭議的訊息不是去說他有沒有新聞價值他有沒有採訪報導我不是可以討論有沒有新聞價值就是說這個假新聞有可能是假訊息的一種啦對所以我們只要是爭議訊息先不管真假我們會去分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13146.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13174.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那至於說實際去做事實查核或調查局去調查他們的那個認知戰研究中心等等我們免費的去提供這個工具讓他們來使用這個在速發部掛牌的時候蔡總統有給予許多任務那其中一項就是說這個為了因應境外勢力持續進行的複合式資訊作戰我們要打造更高層級的國家資安聯防體系沒錯這是蔡總統講的沒錯好那請問一下這個部長對這個總統的這一番的這個期許有什麼樣的看法對 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13176.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13199.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
我想總統的期許是說我們不能夠只侷限在對於資訊系統的攻擊包含完整性的、可用性、機密性的攻擊現在光是資訊本身不是資訊系統就是Facebook它就算不當機它在上面還是會有很多挑起堆立等等的這種訊息那尤其是透過廣告的方式如果我們不去阻擋的話我自己認為總統的這一番談話是對於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13203.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13224.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
如何面對境外勢力的假訊息進來啦那訴發部要怎麼做啦我還是要強調就是訊息公式大部分是靠不是假的訊息因為假的訊息已經有一套防治方法所以現在大概都是靠半真半假或根本就是真的個人評論去放大那個言論的仇恨所以我們現在是把它叫做訊息干預、訊息公式等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13225.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13246.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
沒關係,這是定義上的問題我是說訴發部要怎麼做的問題對,所以我們剛剛講了就是說如果它境外用一個一站式的網站在那邊冒充成好比方新聞網站好了我們去年這個狀況包含詐騙的狀況我們就下架了大概幫助檢警調下架了大概3萬多個我們成立前整年也不到3000個所以這部分我們一直都有聯防 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13247.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13272.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
部長那時候我有聽一段訪問就是說關於假訊息這方面第一個就是說我們有一個事實查核的機制去做處理另外一個呢你說這個可以用幽默來取代謠言就即時澄清啦我是說那當然是部長個人的處理方式但是我們關心的是整個速發部的這個處理方式那就是說我是希望未來速發部在 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13273.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13288.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
假訊息的處理這方面應該要更積極來做因為這也是當初這個總統在期許這個速發部掛牌的時候一個重要的內容但是我認為或是我看到目前所看到的關於這方面速發部是做的比較少啦或是說比較消極啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13289.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13317.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
對那這裡面有一個很很真正的問題就是因為沒有像電子簽章法的新的版本這樣子去確保說當初說這個人他是某某個年份出身的這個姓名怎麼樣沒有辦法去核實部長這個跟電子簽章法沒有絕對關係這個在國際上大家都發現只有靠數位簽章才能徹底解決這個問題這個我覺得不是只有電子簽章法的關係他當然他當然占一部分因素但是我認為是你們的心態的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13319.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13319.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
謝謝部長、謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13347.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13351.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
李委員發言完畢,現在請陳冠廷委員發言請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13369.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13384.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
大家好部長其實前天晚上我想大家應該都知道說這個重要的社群軟體突然有一些故障不信通的大型我們還有其他的通訊軟體但是在我們嘉義山區可能就沒有這麼的幸運 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13385.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13402.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那我們台三線經過中補大補的部分路段是沒有手機訊號,完全沒有那有些時候會遇到受補者求救艱難這個問題我必須要強調我們是部長沒有說過會努力的跟電信業者合作來提供誘因改善便宜的計劃對,對 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13404.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13421.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我們知道說數法部有建制大補箱防災行動通訊平臺網絡基地臺補助電車經濟經費已經有補助大補販路新建二站中華遠傳大哥大公共的基地臺工程預計在今年11月底動工請問有沒有這樣子的訊息部長有沒有掌握到這個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13425.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13444.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
剛剛這個司長是跟我說3月底就可以開通3月底就可以開通非常好這是給我們山區民眾非常重要的訊息那我們也是強烈的建議就是部長在其實可以統整我們不是只有單一個案那整個我們台灣本島就好了那很多山區它其實是過的一個路口 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13445.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13472.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那其實基本上就收不到訊號那有些時候是由地方來去主動來去反饋然後希望能夠來強韌化這個部分那有些地方是沒有辦法反饋的因為曾經發生過事故但是就沒有辦法回應那都是有可能所以我們希望這樣子的部分請這個數位部能夠來去加強這部分的韌性能夠來協助那第二部分是智慧人才就是教育人才的培育那我們非常重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13473.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13494.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
部長你應該有聽過T大使計畫有,這我們數位青年很重要的計畫兩千位培訓培訓的這些人主要是在哪一個縣市比較多?六都還是非六都?以我所知我們一直都有一個做社會企業的專門的就是它即使是六都來的我們是派到非六都的地方需要做數位轉型的地方對,那我主要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13494.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13512.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
議員提到時的計畫就是說這樣子的訊息我覺得是必須要讓其他的非六都以外的縣市能夠有機會去得到這樣的重要的訊息因為還有很多相關的東西那比如說我們嘉義縣那一些鄉鎮那當然是我們是透過一些大專院校能夠提供這樣子的宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13513.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13531.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13531.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13548.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
最後一個部分,我想時間是比較緊迫但是我還是覺得非常重要關於海底電纜基礎的通訊的建設這邊我們是有看到相關的信息還有我們一些數位部的一些官員有接受這些新聞的採訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13549.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13569.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我必須要提醒說臺灣海底電纜在淡水、投誠等地方上岸那全世界都知道那也可能是我們的敵對力量的攻擊的目標選項所以我們現在除了透過分級上岸之外拉一些引力的登陸點之外速發部有沒有研擬其他強化海底電纜韌性的計畫? |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13572.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13595.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
其實分歧商案的意思就是說有些部分是外面知道的而其他的部分是就是不為外界所知那這個其實我們也還包含它的商案點把它變得比較強固比較難用一般的方式來破壞等等那除此之外如果海力電來真的碰到什麼問題的話那剛剛委員提到很多很偏鄉的地方其實商用衛星如果今年年底可以如期來提供服務的話衛星也是一個備援的選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13597.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13613.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
謝謝,那我們希望說先做好準備那這樣的準備我們可能不會遇到但是還是一定要做完整的任性上面的強固這是我想是數位部很重要的一個任務也希望部長朝這方面繼續努力你有萬全的準備我想境外敵對事宜就比較不敢攻擊謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13617.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13635.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
陳委員發言完畢。現在請蘇巧慧委員發言。蘇巧慧委員。蘇巧慧委員不在。現在請張家俊委員。張家俊委員。張家俊委員不在。現在請黃珊珊委員發言。請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13649.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13676.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
委員好謝謝主席謝謝部長昨天謝謝你來看我所以我們也交換了很多意見那這兩天大家看到就是我們內政部的所謂的數位身份證那要賠償業者2億8千萬的算是補償吧那當然你覺得它原來的問題是出在哪裡就是大家對於政府過度收集各職責會不會做目的外利用所以數位集權的這個大家會很擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13677.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
13703.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
也就是說在相關的個人資料保護跟政府的公權力的平衡上面我們忽略掉必須先有配套的法制作業還有嚴格的監管控制一個獨立的各自會嗎沒有錯所以對於接下來部長我們臺灣應該還是必須走向數位身份認證的道路對吧我們已經有自然憑證行動自然憑證等到 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
13704.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
13721.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
是的,自然憑證是其中一環嘛我最遠想說我們在疫情期間因為沒有數位身份證只能用最原始的健保卡來替代所謂的數位身份證那是因為這是公共使用啦但是如果是民間它比方商務使用健保卡是不能用是,所以我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
13721.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
13722.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
同意委員的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
13741.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
13757.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
好,那我想這個部分是我昨天有跟部長說就是臺北通在臺北市政府推動的情況下他可以存活下來大概就是因為配套相關的做法我覺得這個部分你覺得將來有辦法做到臺灣通嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
13760.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
13786.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我想在跟委員交換意見的時候我們也特別聽到包含像主計人員經費核銷等等那個是非常難突破的那確實我們現在就透過公共建設的方法來突破這種數位經費核銷等等那這部分我想是是在必行因為如果不這樣子推的話那就變成是一個民間的受補助的單位他光是隔一個橋不同的縣市不同服貼的這種方法是非常非常的麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
13787.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
13808.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
但這個倒不一定是用所謂app臺灣通的方式來做這個也可以用像行動責任憑證等等的方式反正就是說希望在臺灣的是其實應該是數位大國在有數發部的建制雖然你們成立不久但是我相信這個會是臺灣必須要跨出數位轉型最大的一步第一個要有相關的數位身份認證第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
13810.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
13838.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
公部門應該以公代私引領臺灣走向數位轉型尤其是像公部門裡面的電子核銷還有電子公文這個目前大概只有幾個直轄市的城市有在做但是臺灣不應該感覺現在有那麼差那麼大的城鄉差距更落後這個麻煩這部長可能是你最重要的工作之一另外因為我昨天談到你剛剛我在司法法治委員會討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
13840.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
13840.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
拜訪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
13857.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
13872.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
人民其實不在關心詐騙犯抓不抓得到人民關心的是詐騙的錢找不找得回來對吧因為現在大部分大部分的錢都找不回來所以即使抓到人他可能也是血本無悔 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
13873.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
13902.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以現在是資訊交換的速度要比詐騙集團他們轉帳的速度快才能夠抓得到人就表示要是機器對機器不能再用人的那種公文交換了沒錯所以其實我剛剛講除了銀行之外銀行已經現在有很嚴格的監管但是其實現在新興的部分叫做虛擬資產所以虛擬資產的交易平台我希望由數法部剛剛法務部我也講了我們希望政府來協助成立一個虛擬平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
13903.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
13916.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
因為現在所有的業者要自己對調查局、自己對刑事局、自己對派出所一個一個一層一層的通報另外他們通報的方式跑到165去非常非常的原始叫做傳證機 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
13918.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
13934.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我們應該很多人很久沒有用過傳證器了所以我覺得這個部分是不是請數位發展部協助法務部成立區域資產的平台他們可以及時凍結裡面異常的帳戶因為他們其實也是有帳戶在做交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
13935.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
13959.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我想委員的這個詢問我快速說明就是我們之前在輔導第三方支付的時候也碰過一模一樣的問題那後來是跟金管會還有165等等有一個聯方通報的平台包含即時查詢虛擬帳號後面是誰等等這個應該3月底就會做好那您剛提到VASP就是虛擬資產的部分當然是金管會管但是我會願意說因為這一套就是跟金管會一起建立起來的看看金管會怎麼樣引入這一套做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
13959.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
13961.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
黃委員發言完畢現在請翁曉琳委員發言主席有請部長大家好我是翁曉琳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
13991.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
13996.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
今天我在來這個詢問部長問題之前其實我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
13998.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14020.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
閱讀了這個部長您這邊所提出來的報告我這裡呢我有幾個問題那麼特別是我對於數發部底下有一個我認為還蠻奇特的一個單位叫做民主網路司是那這個部分的話我是想請教就是民主網路司在從數發部成立之後他最主要的這個職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14022.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14041.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
他所做了些什麼事情是不是可以請部長可以非常簡短的這個向我說明一下民主網絡絲人跟人中間叫網絡電腦跟電腦中間叫網絡民主網絡絲就是透過我們參與國際的包含政府間以及非政府跟政府都參與所謂多方利害關係人的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14042.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14067.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
去看最新的像電子簽章互相採認等等的這些新的技術上面的外交的做法它就可以突破像我們舊的電子簽章法說我們要跟對方簽一個條約啊什麼才能夠互認但是現在其實透過區塊鏈等等的方式我們技術互通就已經可以互認了它等於就是de facto事實上的變成一個互相承認的狀況那這種新的外交的做法就是我們民主網絡司的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14067.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14085.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
好的謝謝因為我看到你們在網頁上面至少現在寫的民主網路司的業務範圍裡面它其實會涉及到各個不同的部會的業務譬如說您剛剛講的電子簽賬它也許是跟經濟部有關又或者是說您在這個又或者是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14086.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14114.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個業務範圍裡面有一項是涉及到所謂的近鄰策略等等那麼我只是想瞭解就是說當民主網絡司去推動這些業務的時候有跟其他的機關有共同做一些跨部會的聯絡嗎在你們要進行交流之前你們有做到這些事情嗎是當然有電子簽章法確實本來是經濟部主管不過現在已經移撥給我們了我們是電子簽章法的主管機關除了電子簽章法之外呢其他的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14115.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14136.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
像您剛剛提到的數位淨零,就是透過國際的這種像區塊鏈的這種公正的單位去計算它、碳灰啊、淨零等等這種效益,這個部分當然像環境部或者是我們在國際經貿談判的時候跟經貿辦等等,這個都是我們民主網絡司持續在跟大家一起先彙整我們這邊的需求,然後再去爭取國外技術上面的對接。 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14138.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14154.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
我基本上認為說其實很多的業務應該是在其他機關處理就可以了是不是有真的要成立額外多成立一個民主網絡司的必要性就是我之後我也會持續關注這件事情那麼另外接下來就是想請教就是在你們計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14157.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14167.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
對在你們這次所提到報告書裏面其實主要是針對希望能夠提升113年的出國旅費可是事實上我們知道行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14168.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14189.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
它有一個因公派員出國案件編審要點．裡面有特別強調出國人數、天數應該要力求精簡可是事實上你們在這個我們列舉了你們112年跟113年可能有一些都要重要去參加的會議但是你們的人數、天數、金額都擴編不知道這是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14190.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14215.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
感謝委員的詢問先講一個就是民主網絡司在別的部會會叫國際合作司或國際集團合作司所以各個部會都有這樣子的司只是我們是透過像剛剛提到的技術社群、公共城市的方式但是性質上還是跟外交有關這第一個第二個是說我們這邊所提到的就是像經濟合作、國際交流會議等等我們很多在去年的時候還沒有這些業務移撥過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14216.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14226.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
臺英的、臺歐盟的、臺美21世紀的等等這些談判那時候都還在國發會是今年才過來好謝謝因為我時間有限那另外我想請部長這邊是不是可以提供給我就是你在去年度所曾經簽過的MOU那麼同時也要請教就是這些MOU有沒有有送給外交部並且送到立法院來進行被查那這個部分的話是我希望部長可以提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14240.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14265.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
當然也包含像合作意向書或者是數位貿易支柱的關係協議等等就是跟MOU同性質的啦我們會提供給委員好的好那最後呢就是有關於就是這個在2000年的時候應該是當時有發布一個公務機關禁用Zoom這個還是我想有資訊顯示說他在當時有受到境外敵對實力實質控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14266.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14267.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我是用瀏覽器 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14282.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14285.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
就是Zoom它就算你沒有那個安裝Zoom的軟體你可以用瀏覽器開一個視窗我還是開在無痕虛擬機裡面然後是透過那個網頁連到攝影機好那這個技術的話麻煩請你們也可以告訴我們對因為我相信很多大家不知道會認為說你就是在用Zoom為什麼我們一般老百姓不可以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14304.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14306.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
王委員發言完畢 現在請洪孟楷委員發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14334.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14336.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
主席麻煩請唐鳳部長請唐部長好部長好部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14344.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14365.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
在1月初的時候本席很訝異啊看到有這個平面媒體連兩天的報導都對訴發部都對您個人有很多的一個批評啊那尤其是這個是在我們不管講是說這個政治氛圍來講的話很多人都講說是不是唐鳳部長這個位置做得不太穩了不過本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14366.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14388.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
對於你們這些官派到底要誰留誰不留沒有那麼多的興趣我比較在乎的是當一天和尚、挑一天忠為人民服務我覺得這比較重要那其中我今天早上看到你有接受媒體報導還是詢問講說防詐已經有很多肯定速發布防詐很多肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14389.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14404.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
會不會覺得自己活在平行時空跟人民的距離太遠啊?我先想請教一下你知道去年的詐騙數跟詐騙量是創新高嗎?總體的增長已經到了歷年來最高的不管是財損數或是案件數 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14410.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14437.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那已經有那麼多的一個案件都持續的一個升高的一個情況下你說有很多肯定你的利基點來源是哪裡?就是我們所主管的電商的 有做民調嗎?電商的部分 有做民調嗎?電商的部分已經連續5個月沒有出現在165的高層前賣地 有沒有民調人民的感受還是說你的利基點在哪裡?還是說就是在同溫層裡面大家都說哇部長好棒棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14437.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14453.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我們是在用165的通報訊息那是一個客觀的數據就是我們主管的電商或遊戲點數或什麼都大幅下降甚至高風險賣場是歸零欸不是 我們現在講的是說很多肯定我想要問的是肯定是別人給你的還是你自己評估給自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14456.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14467.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
國人對於速發部我就說了從過去到現在我們一直強調每次提到速發部這一點我們不想講但是國人每次提到速發部你要不要問看民間或說問一下你不是童文成的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14469.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14485.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
問一下一般的老百姓訴發部一年多了將近兩年的時間了你對於訴發部最有感的政策是哪一個你知道訴發部最近過去推的這前十大的政策是什麼你知道訴發部最近做了什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14486.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14506.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
要不要去做一下要不要去不要再自我感覺良好了要不要自己真的好好的離開辦公室真的走入民間每一個政務官都不是神每一個政務官都不是說自己在位那一天就高高在上然後只想聽自己想要聽的然後完全不管人民的心聲完全不管人民的感受 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14507.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14531.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我覺得這才是今天部長本席為什麼今天一定要來跟您做一個質詢跟當面來跟你提醒就是因為我認為現在民進黨政府的官員最嚴重的事情就是每一個人都活在自己的平行時空裡面好像因為老百姓是脫節的當你看到是說今天新聞出來說速發布打詐大家很多肯定的時候你覺得人民心理感受是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14532.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14539.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
當他的那個詐騙的案件數越來越高當他的詐騙結果越來越多當你生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14541.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14564.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
您的生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙?所以本席想要強調的就是不要自我感覺良好我覺得這一點才是最重要的事情這一點才是真真正正讓國人覺得是說沒有辦法接受不管我說實在話你說速發部今天編列預算3000萬要出國出差3000萬對於整體的這個預算來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14567.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
14567.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
14596.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
14617.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
不要讓20多萬則才回收1000多份你看光這個事情我就直覺覺得就是人民都對於這個簡訊都不敢點開啦部長自己也講了嘛20多萬則明明是我們官方發出的20多萬則才回收1000多則你都好意思拿出來講我都不好意思說了目前陸續在回收回收率多少有沒有算過 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
14618.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
14645.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
這就代表是說國人都對於這種簡訊都覺得很莫名簡訊來路不明的簡訊都不敢點開了結果部長居然洋洋自喜站在這裡覺得是說這個是一個政績部長本期真的很希望因為數位發展部是當初我們也期待的部會但是快兩年的時間如果說這樣的話我真的對於數位發展部以及對你的去留我感到非常的擔憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
14647.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
14673.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
部長最後一分鐘的時間我其實簡單請教一個問題我之前有看過北市警說採購相關的這個密錄器配中國電線那速發部說零組件各單位自行評估這是2023年算不算核心元件這部分是那我想請教就到底說密錄器這一個部分這個是真的因為很多的產品其實都是Made in China |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
14673.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
14687.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
這無庸置疑因為畢竟很多時候會有那有些時候採購的時候我們那時候也有討論過說有資安疑慮的比如說螢幕、顯示器如果說它真的是Made in China那到底會不會如果說它沒有通訊的一個功能它沒有連接斷網可以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
14690.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
14712.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那他到底會不會有資安疑慮?就是在斷網的情況下使用的話可以阻絕大部分的供給但是我們還是希望他盡快的來汰換啦是那我想請教說那到底就有一些電子產品好那不要講說螢幕的部分講說有些電子產品他根本沒有就是連接網路的設備沒有通訊的設備沒有通訊的功能那個東西會不會有資安疑慮? |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
14713.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
14741.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
如果它是會附著透過USB附著在電腦上等等那個就有額外的可能性但如果它是完全斷網使用的話比較不會從外面被攻擊對我現在講就是說如果說這一個產品它是譬如說像密錄器錄影的部分它是只有錄影它沒有任何的這個連接的功能沒有任何的傳輸的功能會不會有自愛疑慮應該是如果是台灣的廠牌然後我們也能夠audit那個廠牌它所使用這一些你剛剛說這個PRC的零組件的狀況的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
14742.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
14771.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
這一部分我們要去看他到底有沒有自己接上通訊功能的可能性啦這是對岸來判斷我們現在建議就是說要用不用要先確定說他不會被境外敵人實施控制好 謝謝我們再說明說明部長真的不要每一次委員諮詢只想要拖過時間拖過時間接受人民的請願接受人民的聲音瞭解地方的需求我覺得這才是數發部現在應該要做的事情謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
14772.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
14798.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
數位部跟紅委員來說明清楚謝謝紅委員發言完畢現在請林思明委員、林思明委員、林思明委員不在現在請徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員不在現在請鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員不在現在請劉許廷委員、劉許廷委員、劉許廷委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
14800.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
14824.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。現在請林柱英委員、林柱英委員、林柱英委員不在。現在請陳廷飛委員、陳廷飛委員、陳廷飛委員不在。 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
14825.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
14848.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
現在請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在現在請王洪威委員、王洪威委員、王洪威委員不在現在請陳俊瑜委員、陳俊瑜委員、陳俊瑜委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在好 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
14853.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
14863.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
做以下宣告登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定依報告及詢討完畢委員劉建國、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
14871.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
14884.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或上未及答覆部分請數位部盡速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢。散會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
14902.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
14928.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員 |