| IVOD_ID |
15702 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15702 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T12:53:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:23:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db73b8a2c1b37799c19b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4056e1e98d64889495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 12:53:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
259.025 |
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259.045 |
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喂喂喂喂喂麥克風測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
287.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
288.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
316.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
345.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
348.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
349.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
麥克風測試 麥克風測試麥克風測試 麥克風測試麥克風測試 麥克風測試麥克風測試 麥克風測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
374.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
376.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
議員提供的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
396.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
397.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
議員．3月6日及7日 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
415.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
415.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
韓國獨立委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
470.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
498.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
總統總統總統總統總統總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
504.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
521.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我覺得我們今天應該是旅途昨天好像說未還吧?未還跟旅行不通不通好像旅行交通也很久所以我們今天不防多讓應該大概會到1點、1、2點 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
559.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
570.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
601.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
602.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
639.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
667.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
議員會議員會議員會議員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
913.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
915.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1804.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1813.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
來我們繼續開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施進行報告並備質詢。宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1825.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1844.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 謝謝那麼本日的議程我們排定經濟部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施進行報告首先請王部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1869.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1871.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席、各位委員那針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1874.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1881.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
貴委員會邀請本部跟臺電就電價調漲對產業、民生的衝擊研擬配套措施進行專案報告那以下就相關的情形說明如下那第一個呢電價調整的合理性跟必要性的部分那國際的燃料價格飆漲是臺電虧損的主因那因為在整個俄烏戰爭已經導致了國際燃料價格暴漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1902.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1908.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
台電的購煤均價由2020年的每噸64美元漲到2022年的276美元,大約上漲了三倍。中油的統約氣價也由每立方公尺8元漲到16元,上漲了一倍。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1921.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1939.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
2023年國際的燃料價格雖然有回穩但是仍然處於高檔發購電燃料成本已經連續兩年高達6000億以上是台電整體支出的大宗與二五戰爭前大約是3000億的燃料支出相比增加超過一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1940.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1958.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
相較之下電價過去兩年沒有跟著燃料價格足額的調漲導致產生虧損2023年再生能源的購電支出大概是900億元占總支出的不到10%顯見燃料支出翻倍大增是近年台電虧損的主因各國從2021年就紛紛大漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1964.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1976.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
因為在這個二無戰爭、國際燃料飆漲的情形下許多國家是直接反映在價格上面韓國、德國、法國、英國等都有大幅的調漲2020年到2023年為例韓國跟德國的電價調幅累積是87%跟34%法國跟英國更高達160跟126百分比 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1990.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1997.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而台灣的電價調補相對是和緩的那有效的減緩國際燃料價格飆漲的輸入性通膨 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1999.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2012.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第三個穩定台電的財務那因為台電承擔了減緩通膨的政策任務吸收燃料成本的漲勢因而產生的巨額的虧損到2023年底累計的虧損已經達到3826億元那預估呢2024年將增加虧損1887億元那電價如果不調整或者沒有政府的補助呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2024.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2027.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
禁止預估將會減少到228億元政府在2023、2024分別編列預算增資1500億跟1000億並且以特別預算補貼500億元來支持台電的財務但是因為國際燃料價格仍然處於高檔受電的成本仍然高於受電的價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2047.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2070.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以我們持續來爭取政府的補貼跟電價的合理調整使台電2024年達成損益兩平的目標讓累積的虧損不要再擴大那有關能源政策是不是造成台電虧損的原因那第一個在如果以2015年核能的一到三廠都還在服役中 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2070.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2098.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那在當時核能發電占比是16%火力發電占比大概80%如果改以2023年的燃料價格來計算的話2015年受燃料成本將由3218億元提升到5871億元那每度的收電成本也將大幅提升至3.93億元跟2023年的實際的4.17億元差距其實不是那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2100.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2125.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
按照現行的法規和能電廠的運轉執照有效期限最長40年演議的申請需要在執照屆期前的5年提出目前合一二廠的運轉執照都已經屆期了而且因為用過燃料池的這個空間不足乾除的設施興建跟啟用受阻所以造成合一廠兩部機組跟合二廠的一號機都是被迫提前停機 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2126.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2145.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
而河山廠也超過了研議申請的期限除了法規的限制外研議需要凝聚社會的共識跟妥適的處理用過燃料為了確保河岸需要進行整體的安全評估跟耐震檢查並且通過河岸會的安全審查才有研議的可能發展再生能源是國家重要的基礎建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2152.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2166.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
將加速推動綠電進入市場交易那綠電是產業外銷出口的基礎建設那我國採取國際推動的再生能源方式先用短鉤制度來扶植產業的發展再逐步推動綠電進入市場交易2023年台電的綠電支出905億僅佔總支出不到10%而且隨著再生能源技術進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2179.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2184.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
總購費率也會逐漸下降那更是越來越多的業者會開始選擇賣給民間企業不再懂購的台電所以2023年的綠電轉工已經有17億度較2022年的11億度成長5成以上那我們預估2024年轉工會到37億度那2025年以後競價的離岸風電都是直接投入市場全部轉工給民間企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2207.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2216.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不會等購給台電所以長期而言再生能源業者轉供民間會持續增加可以減少台電購電的支出那現行的電價審議制度呢立法院在2015年通過了電價公式建立了電價審議機制設置那個電價審議委員會2017年本部依照修正後的電業法49條訂定公用受電業電費費率的計算公式 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2236.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2238.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
延續了前述的電價審議機制所以到2015年到現在一年檢討兩次原則上在每年的4月跟10月檢討調整共用售電業的電價那電價的檢討包括當前的燃料價格趨勢的影響以及各項經營成本的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2257.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2270.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
並且兼顧反應成本、節能減碳、照顧民生穩定物價、使用者付費等相關的原則因此電價審議會在審議電價的時候需要評估多重的因素除了考慮電價成本外也會綜合考慮社會經濟的狀況、物價穩定的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2275.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2304.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
民生產業承受的程度、台電公司的虧損狀況等因素來審慎評估電價調整的事宜那在過去的2022、2023的調整的配套簡單說明如下那在這個部分都是在政府補貼跟電價緩漲配套下依照照顧民生穩定物價跟兼顧產業三個大目標來反映成本那在照顧的民生的部分那因為考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2305.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2312.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
原先疫情的影響對民生低級距的用電由台電優先吸收所以只調漲高級距的用電價例如2022年的7月調整每月用電超過1000度以上2023年4月調整每月用電超過700度以上才調漲來鼓勵節能那民生的330度以下級距用電 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2328.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2333.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
從2004年幾乎沒有調漲過那期間甚至還有3次的調降導致現在的單價比20年還低那以住宅120度以下的用電為例2004年每度是2.1元而現在每度僅1.63元那電價已經下跌到成本的4到5成那偏離成本剩元 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2352.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2356.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那第二個穩定物價對於以內需為主的小商家跟產業的用戶那這個由台電優先來吸收減少電價漲幅或者緩漲來穩定物價讓商家有疫情後復甦的動力那我們經過統計呢2023年的零售餐飲業都已經創歷史新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2374.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2376.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
顯見內需市場有顯著復甦在兼顧產業的部分2022年的7月調整考慮到內需產業受到疫情衝擊為了使它順利復甦高壓供電的百貨、電影院、健身房都有動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2390.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2393.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
高中以下學校也動仗來照顧學生的上課的環境品質那2023年4月的電價調整為了減緩部分產業景氣衝擊跟照顧社會的服務業所以就2022年下半年用電衰退10%以上的產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2409.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2434.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
條幅減半、農漁學校、社福等電價則暫緩調整。針對部分仍然面臨景氣影響的傳統產業和中小企業本部也持續透過議後特別條例採用以大代小或個別廠商的模式來補助業者朝低碳化、智慧化的升級轉型另外今年也持續提供十億元來補助商業服務業更換節能設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2436.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2440.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
並且擴大補助的項目也可以降低電價調整的影響。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2441.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2458.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那在2022年跟2023年電價調整以後我國的電價跟CPI都低於國際那第一個是你看國際能源總署2023年公布的最新統計那我國的住宅電價是全球排名第5低工業電價是第3低2022到2023兩次電價調整合計的調幅是19.4%那調整後呢我國的住宅電價每度是2.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2469.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2470.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
臺電公司仍然需要仰賴穩健永續的財務支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2497.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2520.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
將優先爭取政府的補助電價調整是由電價費率審議委員會決定經過審議會綜合考量後需要調整電價政府人會按照反映成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費等原則來辦理以上就本次的專報做一個簡單的說明敬請委員支持指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2524.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2551.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好,那我們謝謝王部長的報告現在我們要進行詢答那委員詢答前依照慣例主席台這邊做幾項的宣告每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘必要時延長1分鐘那我們上午10點半截止發言登記我們首先請第一位登記的陳廷飛委員請詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2560.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2564.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們請王部長。部長,我想我們的立場非常清楚。我們絕對是反對我們的電價調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2581.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2604.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我相信從所有的民意代表到中央絕對這個是我們大家共同的目標我們也希望能夠度過這一波的難關可是現在的重點是在於整個原物料燃料的一個漲價然後再加上二屋漲的一個因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2605.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2631.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
到底我們在這幾年光這樣的一個燃料它的一個漲價的幅度到底是多少是那所以我有提到在這個俄烏戰爭之前我們一年購的這個燃料包括台電自己購或者IPP電廠的購的這個燃料算起來其實都沒有到3000億但是俄烏戰爭之後的這兩年我們的這個燃料的購電支出都達 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2632.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2632.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
臺灣的電 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2658.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2659.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
台灣韓國、法國、英國、德國我們來比較一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2688.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2696.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個到底我們台灣、韓國、法國、英國的所有的這個電價的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2699.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2702.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
來台灣是多少是那所以啊這裡有提出來齁台灣的住宅是2.65工業的部分是3.38齁那韓國呢這個工業的部分是4.53所以台灣的價格比韓國還低一塊超過一塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2718.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2730.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那更不要講法國是8.45英國是10.76德國是8.2所以他們的工業用電都遠比台灣高非常多所以以這些工業大國來看台灣目前我們是以2023我們的工業電價來看嘛 對不對所以如依照2023的工業電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2741.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2758.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們台灣3.38韓國4.53法國8.45英國10.76德國8.2若依照這樣的一個平均我們是最低所以也不是現在外傳說哇 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2759.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2787.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
台灣的工業電價很貴不是吧?因為依照這樣的一個標準是錯的沒錯即使我們的當中我們對於對於工業的部分其實漲了兩次嘛對 對不對漲了兩次是漲了兩次之後目前還是在工業的平均用電是比較低的是那我們現在有這麼大的一個缺口我們為什麼不爭取政府的補助跟補貼有有我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2788.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2804.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因為這非戰之罪啊 因為這是惡巫啊 惡巫的戰爭造成全世界所有燃料一個飛漲嘛 所以這樣的一個前提之下 我們當然應該要由政府來協助啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2805.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2806.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
對整個台灣的通膨對民生的影響太大所以我們的確實台電呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2834.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2858.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
反漲了非常多那造成了這樣的一個虧損的缺口可是既然我們過去兩次的補貼我們都可以反映在民生的部分因為之前我們在上一次是700度以下沒有漲 對不對那如果是這樣子的話那為什麼這一次在外界傳得沸沸揚揚說哇這次可能要往下拉330度 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2861.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2874.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那這樣的一個傳言那我們為什麼沒有辦法用補貼的部分在像之前在往我們的民生用電來做補貼直接政府編列預算來補貼我們的民生用電謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2876.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2897.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對於這一個部分主要是我剛才報告也有講我們在125度以下的目前的電價只有1.6塊1.6 1.6那1.6跟我們現在電的成本是4.17其實差距是非常非常的大那也就是說這樣的情形其實是一個乖離的太多的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2897.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2900.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
但是我們如果在電價審議會調漲的時候我們仍舊會照顧這個小的用電戶等等 這個的大原則我們還是會注意這個用電戶小的用電戶這個比例太高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2914.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2941.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
雖然如果依照我們用電是2比2比6嘛是不是就是說我們的一般住戶大概是兩層然後小店鋪是兩層然後我們的企業工業用電是六層可是如果依照平均他才佔了兩層我們如果在政府的補貼機制往我們的這些一般的民生用電的話我覺得這是OK的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2943.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2944.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這個部分我們一定會做考量那所以過往在這個家庭的住宅用電部分我們確實就會分這個急劇越高的那調漲比較多急劇越低調漲少甚至有動漲沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2959.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2976.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
但是這個整個的部分的代言者我們仍就會提到這個審議會裡面去審查部長我覺得我們既然如果有要考慮到我們要政府編列預算要去做這樣的一個所謂的電的虧損補貼那麼我們就應該focus在我們的民生這個區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2982.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2997.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們民生的區塊而且在小店家的部分你也要去考量到這個會直接影響到整個物價因為小店鋪它會直接反映在物價那物價會又直接影響到民生的一些狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2998.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3019.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我覺得這個都是層層的關卡我們一定要思考到而且現在媒體我們現在因為審議委員會還沒召開我們現在都從媒體可是媒體一宣布出來其實大家都已經慾其心理了有些可能這個房東就開始說哇未來我的固定這個電價這個調漲會把你做一個調整欸這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3023.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3041.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們的這些租客又開始擔心了所以我們要跟大家說的是到底現在所有媒體都說有可能漲5%、漲10%在民生用電那到底這個5%、10%在我們如果120度以下還有121因為現在都媒體嘛媒體說可能330度以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3048.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3050.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
五趴到底是長多少?一個月? |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3064.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3073.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好 謝謝委員那確實如果假設我們試算過假設是120度的部分我們試算過假設是漲5%一個月是漲9塊錢那如果是330度的部分一個月大概是漲45塊左右一個月330度以下基本上是佔了我們現在總共68%的佔比就是我們民生用電的68%的佔比所以如果依照現在媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3095.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3103.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
講得沸沸揚揚有5%有10%5%你說的有可能一戶你說的是一戶一戶120度一個月有可能漲了9塊錢然後121到330度漲了34塊對就是用最高的330度來賺的話都是滿就是以我用電量到120度跟用電量到330度是不是所以其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3125.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3145.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這種5%、10%跟這個所謂實質到底漲了多少我覺得現在媒體實在是太多版本了這種太多版本引發大家都有預期心理甚至是很多的房東就已經開始說我現在要針對固定費率要調喔然後就是再往上攀升這個我覺得這個對於現在都是傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3148.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3175.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以我還是認為我們政府補貼這個非戰之罪因為是惡霧戰爭全世界所有的燃料都在飛漲兩倍欸兩倍如果是這樣的話我們補貼就要從民生民生開始嘛民生的部分我們一定要在這個區塊給人民有感這個部分我拜託我們的部長一定要非常把這個關鍵抓住好謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3182.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3194.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
謝謝接下來我們請林黛樺委員請做詢問有請部長我們再請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3203.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3222.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
新冠疫情後我國連續兩年消費者物價指數是超過通膨的警戒線民眾的實質薪資是出現負成長的也就是說民生經濟的耐受度聽好民生經濟的耐受度是低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3223.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3241.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
也就是從剛才我們上一位委員質詢的都是從爆派當中去得知到民生用電會調漲那從你的回應也確定民生用電會調漲好那您可不可以再次說明您民生用電調漲的方案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3242.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3243.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我再問一次,民生用電確定會漲對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3258.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3267.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
民生用電的部分我們會一起考慮相關的情境只是長的方案如何授權審議委員會去做這個都會他們會有小組裡面會去討論所以長或不長現在經濟部尚未有定案我們會提出相關的這個情境讓他們去參考好那就對於您做一個幕僚單位來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3280.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3280.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
您的評估又是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3297.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3297.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那你們有沒有跟國發 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3319.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3320.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
您有沒有跟勞動部也做討論? |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3347.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3373.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那在我們薪資所得竟然已經經濟耐受力這麼低的情況之下有沒有考量要再調高薪水呢?這個跨部會的因應是什麼?今天大家為什麼這麼重視是重點是你調高之後你如果是明天用當然我所支付的電費會增加但是我相信更讓大家感到可怕的是是我後續的通膨 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3374.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3393.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
以及相關的各部會我薪資等等的限縮這才是整個全民關心的對那所以這個的部分對物價什麼的相關的參考因素我們會詢問國發會跟主計總處他們怎麼去算的這個部分然後這個東西會這什麼時候你們會一併的跟對外講你的配套是什麼我們這樣的問的都會讓審議會去來做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3401.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3427.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我再針對工業用電,工業用電會不會漲?調漲的話應該是會漲你們還是針對離峰跟尖峰的差別定價來做規範嗎?這個還是會存在本席建議要聽聽您的看法,您針對工業用電是不是願意再針對它的用電量的急俱? |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3428.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3453.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
來做考量也就是說你們只分尖峰跟離峰來做課那我這個建議就是說請你也參考韓國這是我們在產業的競爭國他在工業用電的部分他再一次的分集聚再分再更針對他的用電量再分而不是純粹只有尖峰跟離峰不知道這個方案您個人怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3454.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3458.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
非常謝謝委員那這個也會作為委員這個意見會作為我們會設算然後提出相關的這個數據的參考資料讓審議會來參考好勞動部今年公告橡膠製品製造業、金屬製品製造業、電子零組件製造業、電腦電子產品及光電製造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3476.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3495.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
機械、設備、製造業、其他運輸工具及其他零組件旅行及其他行業等7大行業處於無薪假陰影這個問題會不會因為你們工業用電而產業會撐不下去呢?這個新聞是從今年1月發布的新聞勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3496.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3514.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
議員． |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3515.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3520.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以我不知道針對這些產業是勞動部、工部已經在無薪假的狀態的行業您認為您這樣的工業用電的漲會有不會讓我企業撐不下去呢在過往我們確實在工業電價的時候也有考慮到它的用電的成長或者用電的衰退然後做不同的一個調整所以像上一次就針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3540.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3543.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
如果你這個用電衰退10%的部分我們減半調漲。減半調漲?對,在過往的部分有這樣的機制。還會延續?我們會把相關的情形都拿出來參考數據。 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3556.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3573.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
再來我們台電因為配合政策導致虧損政策補貼跟增資當然在你的簡報當中叫做可能的方案那本席想了解你們是到底是會用政策補貼還是增資還是有相關兩個合在一起的組合方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3574.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3574.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們會用補貼的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3590.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3595.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
在開源跟節流．節流本行想救教天然氣發電將佔5成的電量目前全部都有中油代為採購而中油每個月向部內報告天然氣的價格後再售給台電也就是說所有天然氣的採購成本都是台電買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3612.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3626.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那部長台電的發電用的燃料煤的採購都需要經過煤價審議委員會也就是外部委員的核定而同一機制在中油的天然氣的採購卻沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3629.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3637.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
中郵自己說了算幾個人就說了算了好那也就是呢中郵說多少台電就要吞多少光天然機的採購採賣方包賣包運賣方包運DES的隱性運輸成本就對比我們買方包賣的FOB的機制每年台灣的納稅人就要多花600億的台幣這樣的質詢我上屆就質詢了3次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3658.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3683.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
部長中油目前有近三成的天然氣的採購是採取現貨購買的我針對現貨購買的你會不會要求制裁買方包賣也就是FOB的模式進一步來要求國企國印的管理方式呢剛才講到開源你節流你怎麼讓我台灣人民每年省下這600億台幣那請你回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3686.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3691.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不管是燃煤或天然氣其實都是用長約、短約來購買煤價沒有審議會的問題其實也都是按照國際的機制用長約跟短約天然氣的部分確實現在也是長約大概7成左右短約是3成左右這個部分跟這個幾年操作下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3712.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3717.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這樣的一個情形呢他們兩家公司其實都非常專業啦那至於委員講的這個要不要用國這個國輪來運對這個問題呢也就是買方包運有我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3728.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3728.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3745.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3757.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以我如果沒有自己的國家完全是礦組在掌握那你這個只要一個地緣政治就像我們惡霧戰爭所有的天然氣船我就進不進來啦因為根本我們沒有辦法阻擋 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3760.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3773.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
報告委員,我中小公司方正仁有關LNG的採購的部分FOB我們會努力去把FOB的合約佔比提高讓國企國運的部分能夠更落實的在我們國內建立起來以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3783.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3802.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那這個部長有一個剛才的訊息我希望您再查證一下分析所了解的台電藍煤的是有一個煤價審議委員剛才你的回覆是說沒有這個可能我們彼此比對一下報告委員齁,台電的煤是我們自己用招標的方式去 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3804.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3825.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
大概八成是長期的契約的方式去策劃我在意的是這個形勢你們有外部審議委員的一起討論嗎只是一個工作小組而已不是一個委員會是一個工作小組嘛全部都是台電自己本身的同仁嗎有外部的嗎那個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3826.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3852.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
謝謝,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3855.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3856.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
臺灣到底缺不缺電? |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3883.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3908.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
台灣到底缺不缺電台灣是缺電還是會跳電這問題很簡單但很重要所以我問三次部長請您回答台灣沒有缺電部長您這一句話很重要很重要要講三次台灣沒有缺電而且這個態度是要堅定因為有立法委員會在立法院的議事殿堂裡頭公然造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3910.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3926.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
利用言論免責權公然造謠所以我需要部長您很堅定的態度來回答本席的這個問題台灣到底缺不缺電台灣沒有缺電是好台灣如果不缺電的話那很顯然的台灣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3927.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3943.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
確定這件事情上面其實是需要被澄清、被更正而且是要大聲的說出來但是台灣是會跳電表示我們的電網的堅韌度其實是不足的這一點您承認吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3944.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3947.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
對於這個相關這麼長的一個電網等等會有相關的故障其實台電在各國的評比上還是名列前茅的那只是因為確實我們的媒體會常常報導那台電呢發生這些的設備故障的時候那去把它維修好的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3966.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3967.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
部長,我要再請教您一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3991.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4017.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
到底台灣的能源發展政策路線到底是不是正確因為現在我們的在野黨一直不斷的批評就是說台電的虧損這麼高就是因為我們高價收購再生能源而認為蔡英文政府的綠能發展的這個政策是錯誤的這個大概全世界的人都知道RE100是2014年發起的國際倡議活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4018.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4019.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
部長,你有沒有看過這個新聞? |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4036.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4061.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個是3月3日日本的朝日新聞台的報導這我不是隨便亂講的這是真的日本朝日新聞台的報導它的報導內容是什麼它來讚揚台灣的優質能源政策日本人認為台灣在風力發電在我們的再生能源上面的能源政策是遠遠比日本更優秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4063.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4089.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
可是呢在台灣似乎我們不是這樣的看法在台灣台電公司或者是經濟部發展再生能源一直不斷的被辱罵你看一下齁到目前為止台灣已經有283個風力發電的機組日本只有53個我們在法院的設計上面我們2012年就已經把法令完成了日本要到2019年才完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4090.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4104.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以部長我還想請您再看一下到底要不要漲電價到底漲電價是不是因為你的能源政策的錯誤剛剛前面那一張其實已經很清楚的說明台灣的能源政策並沒有錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4105.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4130.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
能源漲價燃煤所有的材料成本漲價二污戰爭是一個很重要的因素在過去的兩年其實我們都經過了多次的討論這一個大概是我們把它整理了一下台灣現在是全球住宅用電全世界排名第五低工業用電排名全世界第三低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4132.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4140.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個看起來全世界各國除掉台灣以外韓國、法國、英國、德國包括法國的工業電價漲幅是160% |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4144.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4172.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
英國的漲幅也到126%甚至德國跟英國您看一下他的住宅用電的價格是比工業用電的價格還要高那你台電現在告訴我你的發電成本是4塊錢可是我們的電價遠遠低於你的發電成本所以台電不虧才奇怪那台電要漲價也要漲一個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4174.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4201.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
長一個這個五天十天啦不是隨便你說要漲價就漲價台電要漲價之前呢台電來跟大家說我們有很多的節能政策到底這些節能政策我們的產業或者是家戶他們瞭解到多少你們的這個補助所達到的效應有多少部長我記得你們去年有做過一個統計我們前年漲了住宅大戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4203.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4206.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
用電大戶的電價結果你們漲了電價以後反而節電的效果就產生了 對不對這個是經濟部有做過統計吧那你們的這個統計的時程很短是不是能夠把它延長到比如說到去年年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4220.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4234.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
因為這個好像是前年做的是不是能夠把去年一整年的這個節電的效果住宅大戶因為漲價之後而產生的節電效果能夠做一個更完整的統計有沒有這樣的能力除了這個之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4239.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4263.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你要漲電價但是你也應該要讓民眾知道我要如何節電我要如何省電我知道現在台電你有分這所謂的時間電價跟累進電價嘛那所以大家有人會講說半夜洗衣服是不是電價會比較便宜可是半夜洗衣服電價要比較便宜的話你沒有裝智慧電表其實是沒有差的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4265.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4265.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4296.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4315.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
報告委員,裝飾會電表的費用是台電承擔,等於是在我的整體的修電成本裡面來處理的所以你現在要漲電價這是一件事情第二件事情是你要告訴大家我雖然漲了電價但是我能夠做另外一個措施讓你節電 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4317.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4346.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
讓你的花費支出不會因為漲電花費支出太多支出太多你要教大家如何省電你要教大家我有這樣的一個方式我可以協助你來更換智慧電表然後協助你做節電的這樣的一個措施這樣的一個方案讓你的整體荷包即使你會因為漲電價多付了一些些錢比如說剛剛停飛委員問到了300度以上的用電戶一個月大概是漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4347.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4371.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
三十幾塊嘛、三十四塊嘛 對不對那如果我裝了智慧電表之後我那個價差是不是又再更縮小然後你的整個發電、除電這個其實也是另外一個方向的除電因為你晚上還是要發電嘛利用離峰的時間把這些電消耗掉而它又能夠獲得比較便宜的電價我覺得台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4372.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4396.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
應該要去做這樣的一個教育跟說明的工作您同意嗎?報告委員現在的這個我們的民生用戶的用電大概有兩類一類是用的比較低的比如說300度以下的一類是可能用到500、700甚至更高的比較低的這個部分維持現在的累進電價是比較划算的因為它最低100 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4396.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4422.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4422.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4450.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這樣的話就是有效率的用電我想這是未來我們要推動的我覺得是這樣部長這個不要說是委員的指示才去做我覺得你們在推動這些政策說明上面即使漲電價是不得已我們也希望不要漲電價但是現在看起來你的發電成本遠遠高過於你的售價成本所以漲電價已經是不得已那你要漲電價的同時其實你應該要更加的去宣導如何採用節電的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4451.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4467.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我們甚至包括這兩年都有這個相關的節能的補助你去換那個能消耗的這個冷氣冰箱都有補助那這個部分也確實申請的案子非常多所以部長我一直在講因為你現在的電價相對是便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4468.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4469.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4501.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4501.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
張祺凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4533.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4559.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
請王部長我們再請王部長委員好部長你辛苦了不過人民也很苦請苦民所苦民生第一電價不要漲特別是民生電價絕對不要漲我先請教你第一個問題你今天報告有聽到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4561.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4585.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你今天有拿錯報告嗎?你看你報告的第4月跟第5月調整電價你強調的都是什麼?包括你剛剛口頭報告都是要照顧民生穩定不給對不對?是可是你的作為這個都是你在強調去年2020年跟2023年做的以前你的努力是可是你今天是要調電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4587.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4591.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以保定,所以你現在還在努力嗎?沒有像媒體一直在報導的已經確定是要漲了,包括1000度1000度跟連330度的全部都要漲嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4617.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4635.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
電價審議委員會那邊才會去決定所以現在是應該是媒體的這個意見那最後的情形應該是電價審議會去決定那我在報告裡面講的就是說300度以下特別是120度以下目前的電價 抱歉部長你已經說不下去了不要讓你再重複一次你很辛苦啦我現在只要強調電價不要漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4639.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4658.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
特別是民生的不要漲因為它會違反你自己提出來的照顧民生穩定物價另外再強調一個重點來我們看一下下一張圖現在絕對不是漲電價的好時機主計總署剛才廣播對不對他說什麼現在實質性資金這個縮減的幅度是11年來最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4665.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4693.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我們現在在座每一個人的薪水全國每一個人的薪水總平均都追不上物價這時候怎麼可以去漲電價呢我們的薪水已經追不上物價了你還要去讓通膨更往上嗎所以時間點是不對的第二個我們看看這個圖近7年來實質的薪資2018年開始往下降到了去年的時候是負1.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4696.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4711.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
當我們實質的薪水在座每一個人、全國每一個民眾實質薪水都追不上物價的時候你們什麼時候火上加油呢?你這不是前功盡棄嗎?你去年跟前年都那麼努力今年為什麼要漲呢?這不是自己打嘴巴嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4714.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4732.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我報告也講得很清楚齁那因為台電的目前的累積的虧損跟今年的持續虧損其實是會造成台電很大的一個財務上的一個壓力啦你現在很急啦可是很急不可以只有從人民身上拔毛那個對人民來講對人民來講電價一漲物價跟著漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4737.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4764.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這就撥兩層皮嘛 對不對對政客來講對政客來講可能現在選舉過後了已經三明開始對不對現在漲價不好意思對政客來講可能是最好的一個漲價時間點可是對人民來講物價也要漲電價也要漲情何以堪謝謝委員的意見我們其實是就一個 部長以前阿扁為2004年開始阿扁也不敢去阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4765.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4765.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4781.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4809.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
但是委員對於這樣惡霧戰爭造成了這樣的燃料的歪理也是從來沒有看過的情形所以這樣的一個情形其實是很不一樣的情境下那台電已經在購買連你們執政黨的立委都提說要開源節流對不對我在總執行已經提了很多降低成本開源節流的方法等一下我們進步再來談包括我請你給我資料有太多可以做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4810.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4836.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以我從開研降低成本跟開研去節流 讓你可以省下很多錢 台電的董事長在這 欸文森 你們之前是金雞母欸 到底誰把他搞壞的 不是只有單純的國際的這個因素吧 有太多太多問題 所以我現在先提一個重點 第一個連部長跟董事長應該都贊成 這時候漲 物價節約上去 對人民衝擊一定是很大 對不對 時間點又不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4838.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4861.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
時間點又不對來進一步我們來看看下一張人民為什麼要生氣欸那個董事長現在就是台電在虧錢人民在付錢對不對結果民間電廠還有能源列車包括太陽能他們賺大錢現在生氣的是不是這個台電虧錢人民付錢民間的電廠跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4863.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4866.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個部分我們都有非常仔細對民營電廠他的成本跟合理的利潤這個其實都抓得非常嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4891.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4900.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我知道,是太陽能,你們去買太陽能買太貴買了一堆弊案出來了這個不用去解決嗎?我跟韋某剛好你說黃偉哲這個案子,這個立揚這樣好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4904.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4925.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
你把那個立揚、你們跟他買電的、購電那個合約書送到本席的辦公室來也送一份到,欸召委,送一份到我們經濟委員會來我們詳細來看裡面到底有沒有問題,要不然各說各話啊我們是幫人民監督也是幫人民省錢嘛把立揚、把立揚黃偉哲那個案子立揚的那個購電的那個合約書可以送到我們這邊來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4926.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4929.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
欸 這個沒有問題沒問題齁 我們詳細 董事長 我們詳細來幫你們檢驗報告員 報告員 其實你是財經專業你完全知道 短購的合約都是標準合約只有公司名稱不一樣 不同年份的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4944.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4946.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
總諮詢的時候部長我跟你跟院長要了一個資料我們跟民間電廠買電買太貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4969.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4985.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個都是你們的決算書上面清清楚楚同樣那天你一直在講國際因素我給你看說台電本身也用燃煤你去買電民間的這個電廠也是用燃煤這個你看111年你們台電自己發的用燃煤是多少3.571度 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4988.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5015.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
到了112年是往下降了357變成343結果你到民間電廠去買欸你不只沒有降你要往上啊你從369變成415欸我們不會賺少這個欸不是不是當初李登輝說明天買電欸我聽你聽委員這個有很多因素齁比如說台電的電廠比較舊它的折舊本來就是折舊比較多了那民間的電廠相對是比較新所以這個都有相關的審議的機制很可惜啦最重要的原則是什麼董事長要買電 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5019.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5031.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那時候定的原則是你們給我的回覆囉台電公司是以避免成本的原則去購電也就是說他購電的價格是什麼不能高於購電當時市場行情 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5034.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5036.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
只是要稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5063.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5082.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那時候就追效率跟成本要降低嘛 那個時候是認為說 這個就是你提給我的基本價基本的原則 我要講一下給大家聽大家全國的民眾都可以聽得到 台電是以避免成本原則購電也就是說他購買電價不得高於購電當時的市場行情 你已經高了而且高那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5083.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5103.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
市長還提出的方式是這樣,就是編記一度電的成本,這個您都很清楚,編記成本一定會增加的市長這樣好不好,你把這九家,董事長,你是這九家當初的這個合約我們拿來,你也是財經專家,我們來對一對好不好好,做三件事情,不要急著漲價,特別是民生的電價,至少做這三件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5104.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5106.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
台電你賠錢的時候,你民間電廠是不是賺大錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5106.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5121.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個要不要改?從關電跟民間公司。第二個,太陽關電是不是買多買貴?必然重生,要處理。當然,核電是很便宜的,你們不用,這沒關係。現在反正國會三黨不過半。現在柯文哲跟民眾黨已經講了,核二核三演議嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5122.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5135.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
去總體檢核試然後國民黨也是贊成的啊就到時候立法院如果過了我們一步一步來走好不好不過最重要拜託部長跟董事長苦民所苦不要上電價特別民生電價好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5163.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5172.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
主席好,我想請王部長我們再請王部長跟那個台電的董事長台電董事長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5174.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5181.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這是台電的資產負債表,我們看到資本去年是3300億,今年度是4815億,我們去年度才編列1500億,讓你們資本增加,導致你們現在不會破產,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5197.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5218.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為現在累計虧損已經到了3972億嘛是不是那其實我們看到了股東的權益就是淨值是1194億那扣除我還特別去查了一下如果我們核四的賬面上的價值的話是2800多億其實我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5224.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5236.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們這個權益也是好看的啦那其實台電是面臨了非常嚴峻的虧損即便我們補充資本1500億那在這個情況下未來我們怎麼樣子不會讓台電繼續的虧損下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5243.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5272.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
就如同剛才有前面有委員說的有一些民眾認為說我們在再生能源的比例這麼高的情況下那有可能未來持續還是會有嚴重的虧損那再來大部分的我們台電的發電成本是來自於火力發電那仰賴於進口的能源那請問一下我們的能源價格未來如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5273.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5287.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
不管是烏鵝戰爭或者是以巴的衝突也好如果未來能源持續的還是這樣子的情況下會不會導致發電成本高居不下 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5291.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5303.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
確實惡霧戰爭讓過去的兩三年燃料成本增加非常多那到今年的部分也開始有一點點降低只是這個目前的降低的情形跟戰爭之前比還是在高達那這個就是為什麼我們台電有提出這樣的一個希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5308.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5308.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
拜訪議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5331.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5331.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
會越來越少。 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5358.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5376.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那離岸風電的部分呢2025年病亡的這一些的競價的離岸風電全部全部他都是賣給民間的部分我剛才來諮詢前我還特別去看了今年度的預算書喔那我看到你們去年度的虧損是2784億約啊是不是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5380.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5405.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那是預算﹖去年﹖報告委員那是預算﹖我說去年﹖你說的沒錯﹖去年﹖2023﹖對﹖2023的預算﹖對﹖那是決算﹖決算是多少﹖決算是1900多﹖1900多﹖那當然這裡面有500億的政府補貼﹖所以我們編的預算是我們多節於就是說少虧損了300多億但不是就是這裡面含了就1900多億是因為含了500億政府補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5407.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5410.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
今年度你們是不是還預計虧損1800多億我們報院的預算是1887億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5416.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5435.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以今年度還是有可能有巨幅度的虧損那請問跟委員報告因為我們在電價的調整上面有一個一年調兩次然後3%的這樣子的一個設算我們是依照這個來設算同時沒有政府補貼的狀況下會虧損1887億那你1887億是有含調整電價還是沒有調整電價3%的設算 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5443.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5447.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
對於4月份電價的漲幅都是用10%來設算那請問會不會調整到10%左右會不會全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5468.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5478.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個部分就是今天我們會提到就是說假設只有這個兩次都只有漲3%台電整年會虧1887億但是呢台電因為累積的虧損已經3800多億了所以這樣對台電的財務的運作已經產生很大的困難所以我們才會說第一個希望政府來補助那第二個呢可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5490.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5508.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
要合理的來調整電價是因為這樣來的那所以是3%還是10%因為我看到其他的就是部門都有就是相關的調漲的一個試算嗎那有你們說你們自己預算書裡面所根據的是3%的漲幅嗎那3%是兩次嗎還是一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5513.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5534.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那時候是兩次的3%那就是6%嘛因為過往在算預算的提的時候都是這樣的提法報告委員那個平均就是3%啦因為4月調一次10月調一次他都沒有逐年所以兩次3%其實反應只有3%所以不是6%是3%對我們報的預算書一向都是這樣子報的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5541.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5568.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
可是我是說其他大家都預估啦就是說有可能是10%那目前我看到的就是說因為我們目前其他主計單位所預估的今年度的物價的就是上漲的指數是1.85%但是我不知道他這有沒有就是說沒有可能沒有把你們就是漲電價漲幅試算進去那未來如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5569.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5592.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你們是電價上漲的話那對於整個物價影響的層面有多高?你們有試算嗎?這個部分我們都會把相關的背景到審議委員會去讓他們去審那相關的資料包括主計總署的資料、國化會的資料等等我們都會匯到那個裡面讓審議委員會去了解所以那到底4月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5595.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5623.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因為我們優先是希望能夠政府的補助啦齁但是這個就看政府的補助的金額的希望他們可以給我們多少然後來看電價的這個漲幅的情形我看到齁我其實不只看到台電我還看到中油啊那我看到中油的裡面喔你們110年度虧損是這上面沒有啊大概是591億是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5627.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5634.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
總有110年度這個數字我不記得不過112年我們公司虧損是180億110年470億470億嘛那是不是有什麼所謂的你們的雙黃獎的措施就是在2021年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5654.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5672.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
2020年沒錯就是在油價的部分那會不會那請問會不會我們今天如果4月份漲電價會不會未來連油價的這個就是亞林最低價或者是這個雙黃漲的措施都拿掉的時候那會不會造成兩個都要漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5673.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5685.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
目前油價的機制它是一個既定的機制都按照這個機制在走至於說這個機制會不會去調整當然要看跟政府的政策一起做互相的一個搭配 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5686.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5704.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
對,因為我看到主計總署他預估今年度又上修我們的經濟的成長率是3.43%但是如果我們的電價上漲或者是未來我們的油價也上漲的時候對於這個經濟的預估數字是不是會不會太過於樂觀啊?部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5706.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5723.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個部分我們整個情形我們都會一起來做斟酌考慮那在這個油價的那個雙平穩機制的下面那亞林最低價在去年前年中油確實是吃了很多虧因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5724.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5738.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
日本補貼非常多油價那我們又說我們一定要在亞洲各國裡面是最低價所以在去年前年的部分中油這個部分的油價確實是吸收非常多造成他蠻大的一個虧損那當然天然氣的部分後來降了下來之後我們也逐漸讓他可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5747.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5755.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
反映天然氣的價格到台電的部分但是天然氣的部分我們確實還有一部分是沒有漲的包括民生的瓦斯桶還有工業的LNG的部分目前那個部分確實是沒有漲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5765.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5770.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那未來會不會漲?相關的檢討中有這邊會來看它整個的營運的狀況還有這個成本應該怎麼樣反應的部分會全盤的示範那如果兩個都漲的話對於整體的物價 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5785.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5787.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5816.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5819.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
謝謝主席請王部長我們請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5825.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5849.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
市長,在去年的時候因為有選舉所以我們的審議小組也決定說不漲價那今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損那本席也要請教部長剛剛大家都在講說今年是一定會漲了雖然說審議小組他們會議還沒有確定但是外面都已經在傳了可能會漲到10%那本席想請教如果漲到10% |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5855.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5858.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
就能夠彌補虧損嗎?那如果不能彌補虧損要漲到多少?你的虧損才會彌補過來? |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5862.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5866.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
第一個去年其實有漲所以去年在去年的4月漲了這個11%所以去年有漲那第二個對台電的這個部分我們確實因為累積的虧損3800多億我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少%才會彌補虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5891.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5892.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
政府要補貼多少?部長? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5907.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5912.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的1000這總共已經補了3000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5925.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5944.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80% |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5946.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5964.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
議員． |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5965.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5973.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20% |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5983.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5988.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6004.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6011.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6031.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6048.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6048.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6048.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
9.5次 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6070.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6091.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6093.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6119.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6119.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6127.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水利等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6145.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6168.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6169.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6175.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
綠電原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆其實佔不到10% |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6192.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6215.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6215.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6241.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
部長,您要了解現在我們政府正是為了因應我們淨零排碳的趨勢已經有提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比可以做一個大調整尤其是再生能源,你們這邊就有提到再生能源要60%到70% |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6243.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6257.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
還有氫氣的話是9%到12%火力的話是20%到27%水力是1%所以這是你們政府提出來的一個願景你就必須調整現在是2024 2050年就要做到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6258.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6277.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的放下所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6285.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6306.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你要達到60%這差了50%欸那你怎麼去做呢所以在這個部分齁比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長你的陸續速度要快一點本席都提醒你2030年 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6309.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6327.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6330.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6348.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6357.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6373.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它就佔了一半它就佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6374.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6392.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
護國神山的這些小山群們呢?所以部長這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6393.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6395.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們很擔心你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲到10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的手續呢我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分物價的部分所以相關的漲台灣大概這樣的漲法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6417.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6433.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到省議會去讓他們去參考所以本期今天提醒請你們要注意到說未來的整個趨勢不是說國際的能源的問題還有這個半導體的這個所有需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6441.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6443.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6500.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6526.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主席我們委員還有我們部長還有請部長好我們再請王部長還有董事長總經理嗎今天請台電董事長總經理請來一位總經理好了請總經理董事長不用謝謝好部長好是委員好好辛苦了這個今天談這個電價調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6531.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6544.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我們看這個例年電價這個一覽表大家都知道這個平均電價都在提升我們看這個電價漲價的一個過程、歷程這個開會的時間到底審議的時間在10月、4月早期也有在6月也有在7月這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6561.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6588.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
規定在什麼樣的考量嗎?原則上都是在3月跟9月召開會議然後來決定4月跟10月以後的電價的情形3月跟9月對,3月跟9月開會然後來決定4月跟10月以後的這個電價的情形所以今年會在什麼時候開會?都是3月再開會已經開了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6590.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6608.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
相關的作業的小組會先開然後再由審議會來召開好那有時候在6月有時候在7月是那個以前沒有比較明確的規定那原則上原則上就是這兩個時間在開會對好這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6615.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6640.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個我們很明顯的通稱這個時候是看守內閣通稱我們都過去部長過去我們都是事務官事務官這個在當知道這個總統換了然後這個院長可能會換或是部長可能會換 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6641.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6669.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
的可能性的時候通常很多的重大政策因為這個是涉及到重大政策都會往後延往後延所以我在看的時候有時候7月有時候4月、6月很可能就是有這樣的一個考量所以這個部分我們必須要去第一個答言者要先請部長跟院長來報告是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6670.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6692.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
還是要考量這個因素不過我跟委員說明因為這一次其實是延續的執政所以也不能完全叫做cancel那個那另外就是說事實上在馬總統2015年的時候他其實也有開會也有去調整2016的時候對我只是給你建議是是謝謝委員這個部分我們看你的理由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6700.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6711.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
國際燃料價格飆漲是臺電虧損主因尤其提到二屋戰爭導致國際燃料價格暴漲臺電購買均價由2020年每噸64美元漲至2022年的276元這是事實沒有錯那請問一下這個我們過電 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6729.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6751.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們台電購煤是不是匯後可以提供還是現在就有資料就是說這個購煤的量在這個10年之間有沒有什麼變動這10年之間是一樣還是說有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6753.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6779.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
購買的量不是金額,量大概差不多1億噸左右大概9千萬噸大概就差不多那個位置慢慢慢慢逐步逐步的在降低因為我們的燃煤的佔比從前幾年的那個43%現在已經降到34%左右了所以逐步逐步燃煤的部分在降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6780.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6804.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
有一直降嗎?還是說曾經停頓過?也曾經停頓過了,因為那個時候大概10年前那時候我們林口的電廠那些新的燃煤機組還沒上來上來之後當然有稍微幅度上升一點但是整體目前的趨勢都是逐步在這幾年趨勢都是逐步在下降好,這個數字再提供好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6806.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6834.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們看這個我現在都先引用你的報告啊經濟部的報告這裡面提到這個2015年核能123廠上在服役中在當時核能發電占比16%火力發電占比約80%所以火力發電的占比也提供10年來的可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6836.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6862.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
可以,就會其實跟那個購煤有關係啦購煤有關係火力發電的占比當然這裡面這個我們這樣的數字寫法當然會這樣寫啦我是公務員我也會這樣寫啦但是如果我們要去探討真正要探討的話尤其是台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6863.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6864.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我知道!我知道! |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6885.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6911.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
花了多少千億對不對合適啊如果有合適呢就不是這樣了對不對所以這個部分舊台電的立場舊台電這個事業的立場如果有合適的時候又是怎麼樣所以這個部分因為畢竟已經蓋了花了人民的納稅錢蓋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6915.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6917.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
台灣不能一直這樣啊。未來可能要怎麼樣去改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6945.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6973.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
政策不是不能改變嗎所以這個部分這個數字的提供很重要好這個經濟部的報告裡面也提到2023、2024分別編列預算增資1500億及1000億元並以特別預算補貼500億以支持台電的財務這個是有需要的這個是有需要的那這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6976.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6992.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
有沒有考慮特別變略預算增資或是特別預算補貼這一次有沒有?有,我們也在爭取當中要強力的爭取所以本席認為不應該調漲電價因為現在這個我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7004.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7005.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
三千六百一十七億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7033.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7038.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是因為在台灣已經用這個用詞不是我所創的不是我所創的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7051.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7057.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
為了照顧民生、穩定物價、兼顧產業強烈的要去跟行政院、決策者要用超增稅收來去撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7077.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7095.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
非不得已的時候當然我不願意我不希望家庭用電家庭用電會不會漲可不可以不漲當然不要漲啊家庭用電部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7096.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7096.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以現在有哪些數據家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7118.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7140.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
用電的部分你們一定有幾個評估嗎?我是老公務員知道會有幾個評估嗎?可以講嗎?事實上我的報告也有提像現在我們在120度以下的因為不僅2004到現在沒有漲而且還曾經降過所以現在的120度以下是1.63那這個的價格跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7144.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7158.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
現在的成本價大概只有4折左右其實是非常非常的低反正我的強烈的也請你請部長強烈的去爭取台電不應調漲電價好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7178.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7179.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
接下來我們請楊瓊英召委質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7196.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7206.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
昨天國發會本席邀請來做報告他說電價是以照顧民生、穩定物價、節約能源這三點你認同國發會的說法嗎?認同我們繼續討論電價審議委員會預計在這個月來進行換句話說4月份會有答案出來現在外界預估就是要漲價 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7223.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7230.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
但是我們不希望成真所以本期要請教您所送給審議委員會的資料有沒有要漲價他們台電在做相關的模擬的時候其實有好幾個情境那情境不太一樣都不太一樣情境不太一樣有沒有要漲價 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7245.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7255.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
有要漲價有要漲價你還笑得出來世上苦人多阿你認不認同目前台灣的社會裡頭世上苦人多 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7257.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7284.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個政府對這樣的一個照顧民生的問題一直是放在心上放在心上要實際在行動上啊你放在心上我們繼續來討論你現在所說的送給審議委員會的台電的資料是要漲價的好 我們就來看現在傳聞說4月份要答案出爐甚至連330度以下的級距也將要調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7286.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7294.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
是不是如此?是不是如此?請教是不是如此? |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7294.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7313.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
330度以下創下紀錄民生用電要漲價是不是如此?你們送的資料是不是如此?我們送的資料有好幾個情境包含這個情境是嗎?也有包含這個情境包含這個情境換句話說就是要調漲那本席要請教在薪資沒有漲現在通膨嚴不嚴重? |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7316.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7323.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
您是經濟部長,通膨嚴不嚴重?大家是關心有沒有感同身受通膨的問題?本期再請教政府努力有沒有成效?現在所呈現的社會層面有沒有通膨? |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7338.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7364.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
通膨嚴不嚴重我們有通膨但是通膨跟很多國家比起來其實相對是空氣比較好請針對我們的情境我們的通膨上漲我們的薪資沒有漲在這個時間連民生330度以下都要漲電價您看您有所謂的照顧民生嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7366.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7366.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
委員沒有講120度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7385.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7403.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7403.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7403.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我不是這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7419.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7421.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
你剛剛一開始認同本席也認同國發會昨天所做的報告是照顧民生是穩定物價 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7440.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7444.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以否決你剛剛的說法你既然已經說你是原則以這個方向所以我們繼續來討論虧損不是一天兩天如果漲價可以解決那你為什麼去年10月決議是動漲是因為選舉的關係嗎因為這個考量嗎因為去年4月我們已經有調漲11%了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7467.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7491.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
為什麼過去10月份的時候他是動漲就沒問題現在你喊出不漲價不漲價會有危機是恐嚇人民嗎不是啦這個我們拿出來就是讓委員看得到臺電現在的臺位的狀況如果決定電價的機制你的考量到底是什麼剛剛說的三點原則是照顧民生是穩定物價而且是節約能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7497.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7499.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以本席請問你你這個電價漲物價會不會漲? |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7521.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7528.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
相關的這個聯動的指數我們都會去跟主計總署跟國防部這邊確定我漲價物價不會漲還是我漲價物價會漲人民會痛苦相關的聯動的部分我們都會注意到注意到什麼注意到到底民眾已經這麼苦了你注意到什麼告訴我們注意到什麼有這幾個因素你有告訴主計總署說如果電費漲價 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7550.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7573.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
價會上漲人民會痛苦嗎有沒有那這個也要讓台電能夠穩定供電有沒有請針對本席的提問那這幾個全部都是我們在電價審議會會去考量的因素啊剛剛本席所說的你也會講嗎會會會都會講我希望你真的會講所以這一個市政長期的問題不應該轉嫁給我們的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7578.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7588.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那麼當然你們有你們的成本考量所以本期具體建議330度以下的民生用天是不可以漲尤其在這個階段通膨 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7590.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7611.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
新知部長讓人民這麼苦在這個階段連民生都在漲這是什麼政府啊讓人民怎麼生活讓人民怎麼生活超徵3000多億部長你很有魅力啊你應該要跟我們的行政院繼續我們當你的後盾啊繼續爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7613.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7622.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
建構台電的一個平穩度這才是你部長要做的阿我講藍綠白都做你的後盾阿你能不能答應本席330度以下的民生用電不可以漲拜託你好不好你會不會答應我你跟我同不同調照顧人民330度以下不能漲在這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7643.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7669.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
你能不能答應我這個代表人民拜託你好不好我們會把我的意見轉告這個審議委員會你轉告你還沒答應我所以本期要再跟你討論台電的虧損原因這麼多台電的員工太辛苦了你作為部長董事長在這邊你們要有擔當這個是國家政策不能拿人民來當提款機 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7671.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7675.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我要跟你討論的是電力的結構請問核電你會不會研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7679.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7694.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
核電的研議其實很多個因素最便宜的電價你會不會研議核電的研議有第一個法規的問題第二個它必須要經過安全檢查你告訴我你會不會研議它這個裡面的問題第一位你要有一個方向你才有辦法去執行跟委員報告好跟委員報告好時空條件不一樣核電能不能研議其實最重要是安全那這個安全的審查會花多久那要怎麼樣來確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7708.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7715.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
你有沒有主張?有沒有朝這個方向請他們去研議?有沒有?你要開源啊!你要節流啊!你的節流最便宜的你會不會請他們去研議?研議核電研議的可行性你會不會?請問你會不會考慮研議核電研議的可行性評估? |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7736.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7738.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
會不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7738.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7738.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
請問會不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7738.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7741.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
不知道答案,但是會不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7741.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7757.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因為核電的演繹的安全性是由核安會來審查的部分 核安會要確認我們台灣的核電是安全的 還有社會要有共識啦 不要拿人民當付款工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7758.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7769.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
開源跟節流沒有,節流最便宜的是核電你會不會本題具體建議你你去討論看看去研議核電研議的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7770.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7788.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好不好?可不可以?會不會做?相關的立法院的動態我們都會注意本席問你會不會做?我們這邊都會注意相關的動態相關注意動態是什麼?現在的動態我直接講就是很ING啦會不會?要開源節流最便宜的電價會不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7797.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7798.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
謝謝委員的意見最後一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7815.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7831.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們再看到核電是不是會延續,你們去討論要開源跟節流那另外你的節流再生能源購電的成本都是高於你106年到112年的4月底都是高於同期間的平均電價匯率 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7834.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7849.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
再生能源的價格要不要做討論請教大家都有疑慮喔大家都有疑慮喔那請問當人民有疑慮的時候你是不是應當要去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7851.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7854.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
本期請教本期請教未來你購買價格會下降嗎?還是持續上升?未來一段時間之後一定會下降因為它會直接賣給民間 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7871.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7898.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
剛剛也有同仁也在強調大家有質疑我也不希望我們的社會有質疑所以具體建議請你將我們的再生能源購電成本剛剛也有我們大企劃委員也提出請你將這個書面資料詳實給本席也給經濟委員會我相信藍綠白大家都希望能夠清楚怎麼樣來開源節流所以再一次強調在現階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7900.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7909.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
事上苦人多通膨心智不漲我們的民生用電不可漲不可漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7921.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7921.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
主席,我想請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7943.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7963.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
部長我想今天到目前為止每一位委員對於電價要調漲都是持反對的意見那我剛剛仔細看了你們的這個報告書你解釋說台電的虧損如此巨大全部的原因都是歸於近年燃料上漲特別是烏鵝戰爭後的飆漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7966.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7987.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
五二戰爭是在2022年的2月爆發那我記得同年的3月14號您在經濟委員會您還記得你是怎麼回應那個高金素美委員的嗎可能委員再提示一下我相信你可能不記得了那我放個影片你看一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7989.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8011.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
他說你說我們跟俄羅斯天然氣的合約在今年3月到期我們替代俄羅斯的採購方案談得不錯比俄羅斯的還要便宜那為什麼兩年前比俄羅斯天然氣煤炭還要便宜的合約卻變成今天要漲電價的理由呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8012.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8015.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
跟委員報告當時的情境講的是第一個我們的長約原來有跟俄羅斯買那後來沒有跟俄羅斯跟別人買那我講的是我們跟別人買的長約的價格比俄羅斯的便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8027.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8030.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
不能這樣講齁因為這個是2月那後來的能源價格是逐月一直在攀升 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8052.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8071.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
你又要跟大家講說國際的能源價格高得不得了所以要漲電價我們還能相信你嗎?我們還能相信你嗎?你會不會已經透支了人民對你的信任?不是 這個採購會其實都可以透明讓委員可以瞭解那我在請教部長經濟部在2019年提出電價調控的三原則是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8078.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8094.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你記得嗎?這個三個原則是什麼?你不記得了?就是照顧民生、穩定物價跟節約能源那這個三個原則今年變成五個原則部長你知道這五個原則是什麼嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8095.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8123.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們也會兼顧產業的情形也不大記得了就是反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費那這個說實在對於我來說我看了實在是也非常的難過就好像剛才趙薇強講的說苦民所苦啊真的不能用口號治國今天今年新增的這兩個原則在本席看來就是我要漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8124.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8125.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我想請問你今年假設真的漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8143.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8146.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
會漲到漁業用電跟農業用電嗎?相關的過往我們會怎麼樣去評估的情形我們今年也會注意我可不可以要求部長農民這麼辛苦漁民這麼辛苦是不是漁業電價跟農業電價可以動漲您可以在這裡跟本席做一個保證嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8167.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8172.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
電價的部分都是審議會審議那委員的意見我們也會反映給所以部長你支不支持動漲農漁業的用電這個部分應該由審議會來決定不是我能夠決定所以部長你是完全沒有主張嗎你能夠照顧農民照顧漁民嗎能夠動漲農漁用電的這個電價嗎我們對相關的民生的用電我們都會很詳細的來考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8193.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8200.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以部長是不支持不支持所以你沒有辦法有把握說動漲農業用電或漁業用電嗎相關的這些原則照顧的相關的民生等等我們確實在審議會所以台灣在電價調整的時候都做非常細膩的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8212.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8240.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我看了你們這本解釋雖然是2022二月發生了二屋戰爭天然氣價格的確是大大上漲但是呢其實天然氣的供需與市場因應的條件相對非常意外的好所以在2023年天然氣的國際軍價幾乎就已經回落到接近戰爭之前但今天寫的專案報告是完全沒有呈現這個事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8241.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8245.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這個部長怎麼解釋?為什麼已經回穩了我們還要漲電價?為什麼?是不是接近戰爭前?我真的是在這裡要求部長一定要苦民所苦不要增漲電價喔那如果假設國際能源已經回穩了那漲電價的理由就不復存在了為什麼我們還要漲電價呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8270.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8271.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我在這裡在強調在憲政慣例上目前部長你們就是看守內閣你們提的漲價理由並不充分所以基於政治責任看守內閣 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8285.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8299.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就不應該做如此影響民生經濟的決定和況是之前就做了這麼多的這個判斷錯誤所以呢本席在這裡要求看守內閣不得漲電價不得審議電價應交由新內閣於9月的時候再行研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8306.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8316.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
現在其實政權是延續的那所以我們不認為說第一個這個都不能做事情而且我們本來在的時候就應該我再請問你啊主計總數預估今年的CPI是多少你知道嗎他預估是1.85左右那你覺得這個數字是不是已經反映了漲電價之後的數字主計總數是說是沒有算還沒有算嗎還沒有算那是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8335.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8339.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這樣子會超過2%的通膨警戒線有沒有可能這個部分就會看我們爭取的補助的情形還有電價怎麼調整的部分你不能夠拿這個民眾的稅金我們這等於是民脂民膏來補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8353.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8354.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
台灣現在到底是不是缺點? |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8375.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8382.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
沒有缺電那不缺電為什麼要講電價呢?不是說國際能源已經降價了嗎?沒有沒有,像委員講的天然氣的部分事實上現在的天然氣價格跟戰爭錢仍然是高於60%那剛剛楊委員昭偉他有提到說到底有沒有要這個核電、核酸有沒有要研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8399.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8409.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
相關的這個部分委員會第一個當然面臨法規的問題那第二個核電最主要是社會要有公司安全的部分相關的部分都是大家社會要來討論的問題你支持核電嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8418.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8441.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
電力的部分有在運轉我們現在都會讓它安全但是要不要研議這個部分是一個問題你會不會做核電研議的可行性評估你支持做核電評估的可行性評估嗎在電力的核電的安全的維運這個我們都會做相關的評估但是對核電要不要研議的這個部分其實有非常多的議題要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8443.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8471.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
最後本席還是在這裡呼籲啊能夠在看守內閣的期間不要漲電價謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝接下來我們請鄭振前委員請做詢談主席好我想請一下王美花部長我們再請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8477.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8503.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
部長好首先感謝主席今天安排了這個有關於電價調漲的專案報告我在想說在進行這報告之前的時候我昨天看到一個美國能源部最新的一個說帖他說美國能源部建議全美現有的藍煤發電廠都轉型成核能發電廠部長你知道這個新聞嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8507.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8531.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我有看到這個新聞坦白說我看到這個新聞我也是有點意外啦因為我在想說我們的政府其實某個部分也很以美國的一個政策為主要的參考的一個狀態那美國內運部竟然會建議全美的燃煤發電廠都改成核電廠那這是一個很重要的一個訊息然後另外一個部分就是在日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8532.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8545.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
他們也很清楚他們在2030年預計要讓整個核能的發電量占比提高到兩成天然氣的一個使用從2014年的40%還要降到2030年的27%我想這數字部長應該都很清楚對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8552.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8570 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
對,各域都有相關的問題我想請教,其實很多委員也都問到這狀態因為我們其實訪談最近有提出一個原子反應器設施管制法的一個修法案希望能夠讓就是合一合二重啟跟合三有延逸的可能性你對於這樣的一個修法方向你支不支持? |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8571.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8585.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們尊重委員的提案我們尊重委員提案那委員會在委員的討論所以您認為說台灣目前就是整個在堅持的一個非核路線的時候你覺得是不是要繼續堅持下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8586.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8613.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
其實當時講的非核其實就是目前的法規就是運轉到40年所以我們是讓它運轉到40年那事實上核二因為沒有乾除所以它事實上還不到40年所以你意思是說當時講非核狀態只是因為現有核電廠的一個營運的一個時間並不是真正的一個政策不是一個能源政策的一個目標是這樣子嗎?是考慮到就是核一、核二、核三現有的實際狀態而不是一個政策目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8616.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8643.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我意思是說我們講的非核是因為讓這些核電用到40年以後停止那因為核能在台灣跟在美國很大的不同是確實台灣在地震帶台灣很小那核廢料到現在要保住所以非核的能源目前執政黨目前來說對於非核的能源政策還繼續堅持嗎還是說他並不是這樣子不是一個政策堅持他只是因為針對核一核二核三實際運作的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8646.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8669.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
40年到了所以才變成非核是這個意思嗎?在原來的這個非核確實都讓它運轉到40年沒有錯所以它不是一個政策目標所以說如果說這樣子合一合二合三它的運作可以往後延伸的時候那非核的目標能源政策就可以先把它放在一邊是這個意思但是展演的部分就涉及到非常多的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8672.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8692.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
為什麼特別講這個部分因為我們今天在講說整個電價調漲那我想說如果發電的結構沒有調整的時候台灣的電價永遠會漲不停這是一個很重要的一個關鍵我們來看幾個數字我們在看整個 原本在想說要用綠能來補核能其實目前已經嚴重跳票了 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8692.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8716.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
以天然氣來補核能的時候會讓暖化問題更為嚴重我覺得這是我們在看這一次電費調漲的時候我其實會有一個政策面的考量在這個地方我們往下看一下整個數字來看的時候台電年度的一個發購電量其實我們很清楚看到就是2016跟2023年的一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8718.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8732.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8733.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8733.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我們再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8750.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8764.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我在想說我們這一次整個電價大漲的時候我看我們提出來的報告當中主要沒有提到綠能沒有提到綠能價格的問題沒有提到核能往下佔比的問題主要又提到是國際價格上漲 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8767.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8781.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我有提到綠能的部分綠能的部分因為綠能的部分成本其實還是偏高嘛我們看數字來說的時候按照去年的一個發電成本的時候每一度是大概3.49元對不對3.89元 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8784.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8805.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
是這個數字嗎?台電的平均發電成本去年的發電成本稅前是3.95稅後是4.17所以等於是每賣一度電就會虧一點多元的一個這個狀態那我這邊特別來看一個情況就是我們來看整個台灣的一個電價走勢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8809.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8818.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
08年4月的時候每度電價是2.4071元到2016年4月的時候每一度電價是2.5488元就是這8年來的時候上漲5.895.89那麼從2016年到2023年的時候呢到現在每一度的那個電價是到3.1154元上漲22.23%這三個時間點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8836.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8858.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
在馬政府時代的時候上漲5.89%在蔡英文政府的時候還沒有下台因為這次還要上漲10%按照之前丟出來的風向的時候已經上漲22.23%所以我們這邊要特別提到一個點就是說在小英政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8860.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8881.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
最後一次電價審議的時候如果馬上提高10%的時候他可能就會在卸任之前為台灣留下了一個高電價的一個時代那我們一定不會見這個狀態因為昨天 龔明星主委他在回應我們委員答覆的時候他說如果我們現在電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8883.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8887.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
調漲了10%對物價的直接影響大概在0.1%多可是對整體後續延伸的波動效果會超過2% |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8899.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8904.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這是國民新主委昨天回答我們委員的一個答覆所以說當電價調漲．他說超過2%對,波動效果超過2%2%就是我們通常的一個警戒線 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8919.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8921.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為這一次目前經濟部這一次有提出一個電價調整方案是全面調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8937.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8963.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
民生用電調漲、工業用電調漲全部都調漲特高外面調漲那這個部分的時候呢選前的時候全部都動漲選後就一次要調期大家非常的惶恐那我們希望對於民生用電的部分能夠不調就盡量不調那我同時要針對這個部分也提到我們的原署之前都有節能加電補助目前是不是會繼續會續辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8965.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8986.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
目前還在辦理當中然後會不會擴大舉辦未來的部分能源署有在爭取未來的經費所以針對今天的質詢本席有兩個主張第一個希望民生用電不要調漲第二個希望能源署節能家電補助能夠續辦能夠擴大辦理好不好是是是謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9002.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9007.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9024.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9026.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
議員：發言委員：發言委員： |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9055.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9057.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9081.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9082.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9111.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9128.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們現在去年已經進行是第339然後今年正推前所以就有做339然後我們上一陣子用原來的工算的能量價格去勝算然後還有用電的那個有一定程度的狀況下算出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9419.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9448.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 謝謝我們繼續開會我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答 謝謝好 謝謝好 先主席有請經濟部部長我們再請王部長能源署有署長誰能源署有署長能源署 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9452.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9472.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
委員長,離岸風電算是再生能源重要的一個內涵嘛那離岸風電能夠確實達標對這個能源轉型有很大的幫助那這個離岸風電已經執行了三期嘛那現在我們也希望說透過離岸風電的這個能夠協助國內產業能夠國產化對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9477.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9483.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那中鋼公司也成立一個新的海基新的海基在哪裡你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9484.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9511.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
在新達港那邊在我那邊,你知道嗎?對,是我達港幫你順耶是所以新達海基肩負著這個南部這個離岸風電的一個重要的這個龍頭他要協助這個在地南部的這個企業廠商能夠達到這個國產化北部已經有一家了嘛,對不對?是那南部、北部嚴重失衡啊你知道那個新達海基目前的狀況你了解嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9514.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9534.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
有,我們都有密切跟他聯繫,那新的海基﹖你們講一下目前新的海基的狀況要不要說一下部長,你要了解,這個很嚴重我有注意你有注意,但是你不夠了解啊我最了解你投入成本要多少?你要建廠,要不要4、50億? |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9537.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9563.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那你這個從開始你要有學習曲線學習曲線你每接一個案子不見得會有利潤而且會虧損對不對因為需要長時間的這個學習好這個臥序這個訂 Line 一減再減最後到交出幾件的這個Jacket六座是原先是幾座原先訂單是幾座最早是56座56座後來變成6座 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9566.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9595.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
好,六座,虧多少錢你知道嗎?很多錢啦齁,很多錢你了解了齁虧,了很多錢,再來中能,中能是這個中鋼自己的這個離岸風電,中能幾座?中能的風潮就順利很多了對啦,他也是,你跟我談一下,他還是學習曲線的過程當中嘛,他也了解嘛齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9597.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9623.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
再來 這兩件做了你要協助這個國內的特別是中鋼成立這個新的海基要全力來達成這個離岸封電 對不對國燕事業這個伊布隆斯扮演重要角色但你要協助能夠讓這個國產化到位讓這個新的海基有它的競爭力能夠協助能源轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9627.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9653.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
國營事業不是不只配合但是國營事業也要中鋼也是上市公司他也要對股東負責那你後面有沒有訂單我們有讓他跟另外一家一起配合來做這個另外兩家南方聯盟嘛這我比你更清楚了南方聯盟問題是說他們聯盟組成的你訂單也是要下給新達海基啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9655.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9681.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那訂單從哪邊來?臺電、中油在不在?臺電、中油是也在啊,臺電、中油要不要做離岸風電?他們就是有參與這個中能的還有不是啊,他們自己也要,他們兩家公司也跟另外一家公司共同合資要承、要承這個有離岸風電嘛3.1的部分是那離岸風電要不要jacket?要啊要啊那跟誰下? |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9683.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9707.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
台電、中油這個股份也佔了將近50%那這個訂單下給誰?是國內還是國外?還是你照理說我合理的這個邏輯推演國營事業要挺國營事業,對不對?好,你台電、中油你要做Jacket你要做離岸洪水下機組那你訂單為什麼沒有下給這個新的海基? |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9709.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9719.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
應該說還沒有下,不是不下給新台海這個不是正確的答案請教一下,這個署長你的理解是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9720.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9743.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那個有關於整體的供需我們大概就國內整體來看那國內有兩個供應體系那開發商他會去做綜合的評估那所以這個評估 開發商台電終於也算開發商對不對也算開發商好開發商你應該有一定的政策引導能力你如果沒有辦法全部下給南部你就會獨厚北部 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9743.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9760.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那獨厚北部的原因你要把它找出來應該是南北雙雄 對不對雙引擎結果南部引擎全部熄火那海電中有作為開發商你也大概有50%的股份你沒有決定權把一些訂單交給信達海基嗎我了解是一座都沒有這怎麼會變成這樣你讓國營事業來支持離岸風電那你卻讓它自生自滅 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9774.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9785.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那離岸封建你要如何達標據我了解 這個訂單都已經下了沒有下給信達海基那個還能做那個總經理都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9786.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9806.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
你們兩家公司控股投資大概百分之五十,將近百分之五十台電投資百分之二十,中油投資百分之二十那就四十那四十有一定的影響力吧,比方說你要蓋四十座你能不能用你的控股的影響力,最起碼有十座有二十座給中鋼嘛,給進大海基 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9810.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9833.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個部長你知道這個事情嗎目前目前因為這個案子還在公司內還沒有送出去就整個投資案合作案還沒有送出公司所以未來最後的結果可能全部集中在北部啦最後的結果如果沒有政策的引導支持的話如果按照台電中油跟另外一家這個合資的廠商去做決策的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9835.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9856.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
一季都沒有可能有新的海基啊那你要怎樣?要重更新的海基?未來3、4年還有多久?連台電、中油、控股的公司、投資40%的公司都沒有支持重更新的海基喔!這樣來啊!那其他台灣省還有可能支持? |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9857.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9863.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
連代理人都有自己欺負你都沒可能收聽啊你其他客戶想要怎麼收聽?要怎麼去跟新來的去頂? |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9868.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9892.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這個商務部分我們再來好好研究一下那國營事業要收聽吶這個新南海自己也是這個響應政府這個能源展行國營事業帶頭來這個帶動南方聯盟在追求國產化讓離岸風電能夠在南台灣落地生根能夠成長茁壯到現在幾年了2018到現在五年時間你虧損了多少錢你看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9897.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9907.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那未來你還會虧損多少?如果沒有政策的支持、沒有政策的引導的話?這個部長你要做個政策的宣示好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9909.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9927.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這個回去我會瞭解一下相關的情形那因為一部分是上業的談判啦齁但是另外委員講的政策可以怎麼樣瞭解跟相關的協助 這個我會來注意一下這個會有示範效果 欸 連國營事業自己兄弟都不需要聽 以開發商 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9929.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9953.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
會不會效法?我會來注意一下相關的情形。要注意很多下,不是注意一下而已。是。是。那另外啊新達電廠這個燃氣這個我們混勤5%那個那個曾市長我們去主持這個這個凍土嘛齁這個我們一起組成凍土2024要提前達標了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9955.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9969.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那未來這個新達電廠混清燃氣的這部分未來你有沒有什麼更具體的計畫你要達到這個50%國外電廠都可以達到50%那你這個新達電廠什麼時候可以達標到50% |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9975.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9996.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那個跟委員報告首先你剛才講的第一件事就是打5%以上其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒了這是第一件事那第二件事是要達到50%要跟那個機組能夠相匹配那因為新達我們現在在測試主要是氫的供應等等相關周邊的問題那機組本身我們選的是相對來講您知道新達的舊款的機組比較他年齡就是說他設計比較早 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10004.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10022.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以我們需要花時間去校正就調出它的數字以後要適合的機組可能才能夠到50%所以這個差的是一個好的起點是的那你們要持續你要請這個經濟部長這個王部長你要請中油台電共同來合作把過去的藍莓的興達電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10024.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10039.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
把他變成永續零碳的示範電廠這是一個對他們居民健康的一個很大的確保這也是追求這個永續零碳的一個示範作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10042.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10056.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個就是我們在努力的方向我們也希望讓他的燃煤電廠可以怎麼樣去轉型所以你那個舊燃煤1號、2號2023已經除役了嗎?除役他就不會再運轉了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10058.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10071.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
還是他這個除役但是他還是備用他是僅備機組他就是除役的原則上都沒有用那我請教你那這個3、4號今年年底也要轉備用 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10073.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10098.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
都轉成緊備機組所以施作都轉成備用 是當初你說的是1號、2號是要除役喔除役是不必盯擋的跟委員報告 事實上我們從除役到現在確實都沒有運轉過都沒有運轉過 因為它的在什麼樣的狀況之下會運轉它的條件非常嚴格才會去啟動它我可不可以這樣說 這個雖然是備用但形同除役 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10101.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10109.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個運轉的可能性微乎其微我要回去跟我的鄉親怎樣?你又找理由又攔美了 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10110.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10137.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
不會啦?不會不會原則上都沒有在那個嚴格條件下都不會去用那這個其實是從國家的安全角度來設計的情形是那去年的這個通過了這個疫後這個條例那我們針對這個用電的補貼我們也花了500億嘛對500億嘛是用電補貼那今年有沒有針對這部分也編了預算因為這個條例是到2025年 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10143.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10146.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
議後的總共是317億 這個經費是會用到2025年目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案所以那個增資案會順利完成嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10159.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10160.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
同樣面對財務問題的這個中友他有這個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10177.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10196.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
中油部分我們會有內部的一些討論的情形公會也在看你改善了台電的這個財務結構財務這個體制那中油的部分也一樣是有財政的困難那他們提出這個政治的需求那為什麼會有不同標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10197.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10210.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我們的做法就是說比如說中油賣給台電的LNG我們就讓它十足的去反映成本那這個部分就可以讓中油不要再一直在虧損那至於其他的措施我們會檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10213.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10236.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
目前我們有跟中友內部討論,我們內部有做一些調整我們內部會詳細的討論方總,你同意部長的說法嗎?是是,報告委員事實上中友公司的虧損也蠻巨大的目前的負債比是90%所以董事會還是希望能夠增資吧所以我們希望還是能夠增資啦但部長不同意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10239.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10240.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10268.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10274.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
主席好首先有請紅胸肌部王部長我們再請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10280.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10302.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
委員好 王部長好剛剛邱志偉講我們離岸婚禮的國產化我記得在沈仲欽部長的時候我理事都提出來那邱志偉委員講的話是一個很切實的事情56隻只有6隻在台灣做我當時都有提出來你們說不會啦我們怎麼樣現在連訂單都不發給我們國產的產商 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10308.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10315.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
剛剛出座的時候北部那一家的實力政商關係非常好我只跟部長提醒一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10317.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10340.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
當時為了離岸鋒利我們要趕快去完成五十六隻、六隻在台灣慢慢磨其他的都在韓國湊因為俄系有在韓國有設工廠啊到最後沒有辦法大家就迷迷糊糊這樣過去我們都一清二楚講了你們也不聽以後我們再批評你其實他講的完全是對要注意這樣的一個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10342.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10361.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
因為很多的業界反映出來 國產化 機械設備下來買肉 你們不下訂單 你們被那種大財團 被外國人把台灣當作殖民地的公司這樣你難得好過關於講了好幾次 我希望調查 我們也會去了解好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10362.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10365.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
今天委員會主要是討論我們台電電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊配套的一個措施在 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10392.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10403.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我看過你們的報告,你們只要講國際燃料價格飆漲是台電虧損的主要原因。接下來在你又談到俄烏戰爭以後,台電過敏從2020年64塊美元到2020年276美元漲了3倍。中油的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10419.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10447.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那個天然氣每立方由8塊錢漲到16塊錢漲了一倍所謂你裡面2023年國際燃料價格雖然有回穩但是遲於高檔回穩跟高檔你跟我解釋一下回穩是回到以前的樣子還是說我在高檔董事長會給我一個介紹因為早來早去早到現在大家沒有人去 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10449.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10451.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我第一個要檢討台電的人才都很優秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10478.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10498.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
你們台電購買都是長期合約,怎麼這現在突然漲了3倍啊?哇媽,去到太雄啊,你也要去內閣一下,我們是長期合約的夥伴,啊中油也是一樣,長期購買那幾個地方幾個地方,把你去到管你不會跳啊?任人宰割啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10499.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10510.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
跟委員報告齁 那個是平均價 在2022的時候齁 那個現貨曾經漲到400多塊但是因為我們產業價跟現貨有一定的比例啦你用現貨價來比 啊你產業價也要降下來嘛 有有 就是因為有產業價才600、200多塊 再講我時間我那邊 我自己講我時間要多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10526.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10543.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你們說兩年虧錢的六千億好,我算賬給你們聽第一個我們一千五百億的補貼公務預算五百億的特別預算現在你增資又一千億加起來兩千 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10545.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10558.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
啊加起來三千億喔你虧六千億減掉這三千億政府已經負帳給你們了喔這第一點政府沒有負帳政府都是講假的政府沒有負帳你們又不敢講來來來來等一下你不要急著 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10563.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10575.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你2022年你電價調了8%你說大概會增加300億的收入2023年又調了11%你們報告會增加600億的收入加加壓才要多一兆像這樣加壓給你倒四兆6千億減這個政府補貼還有電費調價的上漲一千億這樣起來你現在跟虧損兩千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10592.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10611.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
阿兩千在內地你講齁那個再生能源佔了九百億這裡面如果依照你們收交的成本大概你都付出了四百億這內地你說阿只佔了沒有什麼影響所以在這包括民間的電廠在這裡面現在你給他兩千要給虧損喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10615.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10643.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
政府補貼3千億兩次電價的上漲將近1千億除了2千億所以我不知道你這個小安若生那你這個小波塊董事長我很尊敬你尤其你跟我講說跑到我好望角去剛剛發生火災我曉得除了大概只差你兩個小時你對我的承諾你用句子我很感謝你但是一帳一帳歸一帳來算啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10646.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10666.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以你現在這個小破關是什麼替蔡英文總統匯合政策辯論其實很多錯誤在這邊你是現在我們未來新任的賴清晨總清理戰場拿出來實際算下來你們在包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10668.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10693.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
再生能源大概你們兩年多買了一千億剩下只有一千億所以現在跟你講能源政策調配稅喔我給你算一算不是你虧錢國家補貼你說為了穩定民生物價你當削破塊我看不是你是當蔡英文總統的削破塊當未來賴清德的總統清理戰鬥團的削破塊國家稅收來給你補貼吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10698.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10715.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
你現在要漲當然要有合理漲的一個程度但是這個都很浮動你幾十年沒在說我核能症會有絕對不會漲價今天一個高了一個段落蔡英文總統也要下台了 好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10716.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10728.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
都是你給我們部長我先把責任虧給他替代得全的全力這個報告裡面你們財務的問題股貼了3000億還有你電價漲價了大概又增加了1000億2000億2000億再生能源大概兩年的話1000億多的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10742.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10749.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
大概只剩下一千億還說為了什麼穩定物價我來看一下你寫的原來反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者互惠現在你電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10768.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10782.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
你天然劑要不要漲?你水要不要漲?那天我看高金素美在質詢我們的陳院長的時候他說三次漲價還講到馬英九總統就是漲價讓國民黨都整個落選現在你們清理戰場用這一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10791.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10808.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
什麼人做時代,什麼人擔當啊?你們是在消遲民間的一粒,說到你們很困難。你們現在頂多只負債一千億而已啊。不可以說到,來啦,來承認嘛,人有成本。國家已經三千億海連了嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10809.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10812.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
對嗎?你2022年漲價8%增加400億2023年電費漲價成本漲價600億你們自己寫的不會一計收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10824.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10826.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們現在如果是照委員的講法你看我們現在就是累虧3000多億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10841.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10845.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
因為台電人生財太好每一個人太努力你們被政策所破壞了啦所以你們都苦不堪言大家不要講話而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10860.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10871.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我是跟你講的老實話,我這個選份算出來你就知道到底虧損多少好不好?因為你一直急著要來我這邊叫我吵架我要是不是好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員請做詢答謝謝主席齁請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10892.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10911.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
市長,我想還是要先從這個這20年來其實台灣在進行一個能源政策的一個轉型當然我們核能我們希望降低這個肺核價也是大家草野的共識也到立到了法裡面包括我們看到合一合二的光執政的國民黨的這個地方政府也是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10912.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10912.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10928.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10958.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10958.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10958.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
對台灣的未來其實不是一件好事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10974.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10998.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那我們來看一下現在台電包括我們遇到了什麼樣的一個問題其實最關鍵的你看這個電價過去以來其實在國民黨時代一樣有漲有跌都有但是民黨政府的時代其實也是但是這樣努力在控制剛剛部長的報告裡也有提到但是現在遇到的最大的一個大概就是這二屋戰爭包括部長的報告裡面的結論也提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10998.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11028.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
而物戰爭造成了這個國際的燃料價格暴漲這個還是虧損主因虧損主因那所以政府這段時間也做了很多的一些撥補那台電是國營事業台電虧損就是國家虧損就是老百姓整整體的虧損所以這個問題當然我們要去面對解決我們也不能夠讓台電持續的虧損那當這個價格原料取得價格跟整個售出有這樣的一個落差的時候當然要適度嘛不然對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11029.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11031.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
是,我們這個相關的部分都會一起整體來做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11055.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11081.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那我也看到你的報告裡面其實也提到了其實我看到你甚至於反映成本是你的一個關鍵性的因素我們來看一下其實在台灣的這個電價的部分其實跟其他世界各國比不管是住宅、工業其實都算是相當控制在一個比較低的狀況所以看到出來其實政府的一個努力希望控制那但是確實是因為整個戰爭的衝突造成價格的漲了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11083.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11104.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11105.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11127.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這個部分院裡面在涉算那部長你提出來就總是讓大家知道就是說因為接下來要處理的是電價審議了那審議在談這件事情總是先看到政府在這件事情的決心嘛在我的角度上面我認為比較賺錢的或者是高這個應該由他們來補啦你不應該由國家來幫你出這個錢但是對於民生甚至有可能會造成物價波動的這一塊應該由國家再多幫點忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11130.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11157.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那我認為國家在撥補是在補這一塊補民生、補一般的小老百姓可能會影響到甚至物價的波動的那這一塊部長這一塊我們政府做什麼努力至少超過一千億的爭取吧是我們是希望有一千億以上的爭取那現在月裡面正在射算如果能到一千五百億更好嘛就是說我覺得這也是個政府的態度啦如果政府也一樣出來之後那未來如果再對於這些用電比較多的也用 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11158.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11184.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11184.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11200.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
幾乎你看我們特高壓這一塊也很多的半導體產業基本上這幾年的獲利狀況都相當不錯那確實他卻占到了我們34%的一個售電的部分那等於一塊錢幾乎是700戶這些701戶的用掉了793億度的電占34%那如果他沒有去合理的調整這些的話等於由人民來負擔我認為這個確實也不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11211.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11232.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我也認為他們也應該也願意來承擔這個要不然你電明明成本就這麼高卻要由國家來補貼你所以部長這個方向上是我們都會一起來做委員的意見都會一起來評估拿給審議會來做參考那另外一個當然大家關切的是他對於民生的一個影響包括像現在的CPI的部分到 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11234.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11262.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
1.85那大家預估如果漲10%的話大概會再增加0.12那大概到2左右那我先問一下部長2這樣的數字的話對在全球跟台灣來看來是一個什麼樣的數字2%事實上對全世界來講相對還是比較穩定的一個情形所以政府一直有在注意這件事情我覺得這個也要不斷的讓人民知道我們一方面在抓著國家的大的整體政策方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11263.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11279.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
讓電力讓台電整體永續經營但一方面對於民生物價的影響我們也很努力在關切著控制在一個好的範圍內不要造成那這件事情我也希望在未來電價審議委員會也要充分的去討論它對於整個未來的民生 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11279.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11299.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11300.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11309.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
委員剛剛有問過啦假設是用這個120度以下的這個部分他如果假設是漲5%他一個月是增加9塊錢增加9塊錢對那如果是330度的部分那一個月是增加34塊錢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11318.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11336.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我蠻希望不斷的讓外界知道因為有時候講那個趴數大家好像會也會很緊張比較不了解狀況是什麼樣但如果講那個金額的部分的話也許大家了解大概是影響層面是多大然後多少人會受到影響當然這個是它第一個另外當然是對於物價間的波動就是它會產生什麼樣影響因為有可能還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11336.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11342.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
接下來剛剛也提到核電的部分看來不是一個好處理的現在包括草野之間也都有這樣的一個共識非核家園所以我想核電應該不是我們現在主要處理這件事情的一個好的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11364.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11381.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
合電的部分當然第一個他有法規的問題那第二個事實上就像委員講的我們目前的情形都是希望他用到40年年限並沒有提早但是呢比如說合一的電廠跟合二的電廠甚至都是因為這個燃料池滿了 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11383.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11388.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
都提早要停機就像剛剛講到了嘛對新北市政府大家其實對一些核電的使用還是有不同的意見他不是一個我們現在的更何況核廢料更何況核安的部分安全的部分是一個最大的關切點而且他只是把相關的成本沒有並沒有那個如果把那些成本大量算進來恐怕他一付出大概就是相當龐大的都要一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11407.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11424.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
所以我覺得這一塊應該不是這一個那綠電的部分我導師也要再提一下我覺得2023年的時候台灣的再生能源總發電268億度這是一個很很不錯的一個成就這幾年來大家努力來推展那我也希望部長也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11425.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11436.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
大家都要不斷地去那個綠電是一個趨勢也是一個方向其實大電力用戶一直希望我們那個再生能源再增加因為他們未來到2030年的時候這個需要的這個綠電增加的非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11440.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11440.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
現在請洪森漢委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11478.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11500.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
請王部長委員好是部長我今天一早當然我也聽了各委員的質詢那我聽到大家有一個說法說尤其是國民黨的委員講到說這個在看守內閣期間這個不該漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11504.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11522.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那我聽了這個說法我當然有一點困惑我就請教部長就你知道在2015當時馬政府大概2016一月然後馬政府進入cancel以後這個在那個上半年520之前馬政府有沒有調整電價有有其實有 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11524.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11544.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
其實有調整電價嘛對不對那當然那時候我記得他應該是調降了非常大的比例嘛所以那時候引起社會也很多的紛擾當時很多的專家學者也說你調降這麼大的比例其實是短多長空因為大家都知道你這一次調的降幅這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11545.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11561.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
接下來要陸陸續續再調上來的時候就會遭到社會很多的阻力所以這是為什麼當時有很多人會說那是短多長空可能不利於長期能源政策的原因在這個地方喔那部長我想先請教就你知道台灣的電價其實我們是偏低還偏高 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11562.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11583.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
國際上?在國際上是偏低的偏低嘛齁那這個大家認知差不多那其實低電價當然我們看到是有一些優勢包括也許可以吸引外資進入台灣穩定民生物價但負面影響也是有的包括可能比較難形成節約的概念造成浪費或低效率的使用也包括國營電力公司入不敷出全民買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11584.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11592.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
甚至是全民實質補貼用電大戶也包括這段時間在近鄰的情境裡面國際中都在講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11594.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11622.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
水電的補貼會難以形成健康的綠色經濟市場這其實都是可能帶來的負面的效果但我們大概知道現在因為物業戰爭的原因看起來這一波我們確實有很大要這個調整電價尤其可能是調漲的壓力但我覺得現在因應這個降低衝擊我認為最實質的做法恐怕是政府應該大力的來協助用戶以最有效率跟聰明的方式用電部長你同不同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11623.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11645.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我完全同意 這個在國際能源總署其實也是提到節能其實是第一個要去優先考慮的項目部長那如果針對這部分我就想來跟部長請教我們看到其實政府花了很大的力氣來去投資所謂的智慧電表那智慧電表目前的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11647.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11666.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
報告委員,今年行政院給台電的目標是300萬具,那目前已經達到280幾萬具,所以大概年中的時候就會完成300萬具的目標。但是總經理,這個智慧電表並不是裝了就會節電,對不對?是的。智慧電表要拿來用啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11668.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11683.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以我要問現在我要問台電的事情是我們現在裝了這麼多年底可能可以就確實會做到300萬具那我們之後的應用計畫是什麼報告委員我們一直很希望就是全民都能夠有效率的用電 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11684.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11706.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那所謂有效率的用電就是因應再生能源時代的來臨我們在正中午這個時候的太陽能非常多的狀況之下大家用電的器具就在那個時候來使用然後到了晚上就少用一點大概用這樣的概念但是這樣的概念我現在問的是說智慧電表裝上去以後你希望大家怎麼來應用這個智慧電表 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11707.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11736.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
你要應用它才會有節電的效果才會有效率的能源管理啊那我們後續裝上去以後的應用計畫是什麼我們已經開發了一些APP所以只要用戶已經裝成改成APP之後我們在電費單上面都會通知他你已經改成新的智慧電表了那我們台電有APP可以使用那歡迎你們來安裝這個APP我們現在假設裝了281萬具你知道現在我們使用APP的使用人數都還多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11738.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11741.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
總經理我知道數字不是這樣我知道現在在使用APP的數字恐怕不到20萬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11755.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11783.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
也就是我們有很多的住戶他裝了智慧電表可是他並沒有在使用甚至我有很多的朋友他家裡被裝了也許在他地下室換了台電去換了但他根本就不知道自己被換了所以我們有很多是換了裝了但他根本就不知道他還是用原本的能源使用習慣我得知的APP的使用的數字大概不到20萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11785.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11797.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
算下來其實目前如果用281萬當作分母的話恐怕不到10%的人真正在使用這個智慧電表跟相關的應用程式啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11799.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11819.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
總計你覺得這個數字你滿意嗎我當然不滿意我希望能夠做得更好那更好的原因就是說在誘因方面如何讓民眾更有感那其實我們知道價格訊號事實上在國外是非常好的一個總計所以我花了一些時間我也跟台電這邊來詢問那我們裝完智慧電板以後後續的應用有沒有應用計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11820.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11833.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
台電有沒有提一個應用計畫或者是有沒有推廣計畫可是我聽到的都是只有我們會設計APP可是APP的使用率卻又這麼低不到10%這變成是我們有很多投資的智慧電表可能是亮在那邊的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11836.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11855.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
目前我們已經期望跟第三方合作第三方也正在做這方面就是他們在裝的那個第二條通訊路徑跟家裡的家電可以結合那麼可以參加我們的訓練總經理我覺得我們其實應該要定一個假設APP是使用跟應用的關鍵的話到底我們希望APP的成長的速度跟進程要多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11855.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11856.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
接下來我要問齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11884.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11908.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
電價的調漲當然我們接下來會最在意的事情其實會對於這些中低收入戶或者是社會底層的影響其實在氣候法裡面其實有46條公正轉型的方案裡面只有說每個主管的機關目的世界主管機關應該針對主管的業務提出公正轉型行動方案來送公正轉型的主辦機關也就是國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11910.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11923.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
照理來說,現在假設我們要漲電價,我們要提出因應衝擊的方案,這是不是就公正轉型的概念?是。那如果這是公正轉型的概念,我們有沒有提出公正轉型的行動方案?我說經濟部的部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11927.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11938.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
報告委員這一個部分是這樣就是說我們這一次是局部的一個議題就是那個但是你提到就是說公正轉型的部分我們都有參加國發會的委員會議那這一個部分我們會一併來做調整但是我們在過去兩年的電價調整方案事實上都有把這樣子的一些價值考慮在裡面我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11950.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11974.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這個部分社會上應該都知道我們都有考慮過這些相關的那個董事長我知道我們當然在調整的方案上有考慮但是現在大家會期待說我們可能需要更多的配套來去協助我們的底層或弱勢來去因應這個事情其實可能要有一個公正轉型的方案不一定是完整的經濟部全部的方案但針對這個部分有一個這樣的方案可以提出來至少對於我們的經濟弱勢或者是社會底層 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11974.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11994.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
他知道我是被政府給協助跟支持的部分除了在我們調整的方案以外我覺得這部分是經濟部應該優先考慮的事情可以嗎?了解 我知道委員提的就是包括協助做事、節電等等這些都是可以做的具體方案是好 這部分就請經濟部再帶回去我覺得現在在討論的時候我覺得要讓大家有信心是政府會支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11995.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12013.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
當然你們在方案的架構下面有考慮可是也許很多弱勢的用戶你需要補助他、汰換他的用電的設備或者是協助他做用電的相關的診斷這些事情是我們可以做的我覺得大家會在這個時間點更期待這件事情謝謝接下來我們請蔡譽委員請做詢談 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12033.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12040.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長以及我們台電我們董事長就是次長我們請以上三位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12043.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12061.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
好委員好部長那我今天我看了台電2023年事實上這個決算總支出是一兆元畢竟一兆啦9999.78億那燃料支出勒自發燃料的支出是4688億像民營電廠購電支出是1882億那中間燃料是1415億 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12072.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12098.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
所以大概發電的這一個燃料的支出就高達6103億那跟2021年前無二戰爭的燃料的支出是2924億那我想要請教部長就是說因為無二戰爭造成這一個燃料成本的一個提高那這件事情你們覺得會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12100.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12114.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
因為現在國際的燃料大概有下滑了所以我們這件我們的燃料成本這麼高的這個狀況大概還要持續多久才能把燃料成本壓到一個比較合理的水位 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12115.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12139.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
現在有慢慢下來但是因為二五戰爭還在持續然後還有以哈戰爭所以國際的這些智庫或者是專業機構的評估就是說它的下來的幅度不會很快那另外一個就是說只要有一點變動因素可能又會影響這個燃料成本那目前我們看到的國際的重要的機構的評估是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12141.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12162.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好那所以我就要回到剛剛這個一兆元的這樣的一個支出的結構大概6100億是燃料的一個支出綠電是905億就是大概9%氣電大概就是指那個氣燃氣的嘛氣電共生的是255億那其他是2269億所謂的其他是指什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12169.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12192.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
包括折救包括利息包括相關的網路電網等等的全部都算在這個裡面好那所以現在台電因為燃料成本提高嗎這樣的一個虧損這樣的虧損你們要支應利息錢嗎要啊要那一年利息在多少都要借錢所以現在台電一年負擔的利息已經超過300億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12194.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12219.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以這個利息錢也是算在剛剛講的其他這一欄對,其他的支出其他支出是所以可以看出來就是說至少在燃料還有利息錢這都是現在是看到很大的洞都是壓力對都是壓力啦是所以當然今天說這個漲電價當然是壓力點是來自於這一個燃料的成本台電不能再虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12221.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12247.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我們也知道說事實上從戰爭發生到現在全世界的物價上漲很高沒錯尤其是像歐洲的國家整個物價是飆漲那物價的飆漲來自於他們的電價上漲是來自於他們的電價上漲所以電價上漲還有其他的糧食的部分也是對包括玉米價格也上漲很多我以前有諮詢過 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12249.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12275.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
但是這樣的一個上漲我們可以看出台灣相對於其他國家我們的物價是平緩的我們大概我們的CPI上漲大概都是2點多趴跟我們比較近的大概就韓國韓國大概3點還是比我們高高的1趴多那如果以歐盟的國家來說哇那個股業可以弄都逼近10趴的非常可怕的漲所以台灣相對物價平緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12277.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12295.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
台電甚至中油有負擔了很大的國營事業我們有吸收很大的漲價包括說你如果說中油包括他們的鴨酥湯什麼都動漲嘛事實上都是把這個物價做這樣的一個壓那我們現在當然現在壓力過來了啦我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12300.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12324.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這個虧損這麼多這這麼大的一個洞我覺得說除了說我們今天去討論我們未來可能要漲電價讓台灣的電價可以跟可以比較去一個合理的不要讓台電都這樣了結啦不對我覺得還有幾個觀念部長你也應該要督促台電甚至我們台電公司內部也應該要去檢討第一個就是說我們台電負擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12326.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12350.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
議務類事實上也不只是剛剛說平緩護駕喔像我剛才就我之前就有在講台電我們事實上去買了很多很多的電但是我們賣給民間的時候就綠電啦綠電賣給民間的時候我們為了要降低排排碳系數所以台電這台電是賣起來還是沒給台的喔是把它混在一起變成灰電賣出去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12351.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12366.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以這個對台電來說為了降低排碳係數這一個環節我們台電又去承擔了很大的社會義務但是這個社會義務哩如果你對於很多的中小型企業 他們沒有碳排的壓力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12368.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12388.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
當然對於大廠油阿對中小型企業它沒有蛋白壓力阿那為什麼這一塊要由台電來吸收這個是第一個我覺得不合理的那第二個勒我覺得從這個事件上來說我覺得台電應該要面對自己有這麼多叫做民股為什麼台電是國營事業要有民股阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12394.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12401.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
因為我們有民股這件事情齁我剛剛了解一下像中油就沒有民股阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12402.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12417.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
台電有,這件事情會影響到什麼?影響到了事實上我們像我們去年我們政府的稅收有超徵,超徵了3000多億,這個3000多億來自台灣去賺錢,包括很多科技產業賺錢,他們賺錢本身也來自於台灣因為電價比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12426.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12451.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以他們的身份有比較多所以他們有賺錢當然就多繳的稅台灣有這樣的一個稅收事實上我主張啦像去年的超徵稅收目前還沒有決定怎麼用就應該把這些錢也適度的拿來彌補台電跟中油的虧損你如果這裡三千萬元可以補進來哇大補完欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12454.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12455.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
是可以很大的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12485.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12495.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
所以我們會建議用補貼的不要用增資的不要用增資的部分就會稀釋那個原來的股權我覺得部長我們考慮啦就是做價錢把他們買回來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12498.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12526.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那個是另外一個議題是台電的部分我感覺說很多因為台電國營事業嘛他應該是要跟政府的卡簿可以一體嘛就政府我們現在不管是補貼還是增資事實上就是政府有這些稅捐這些錢就可以來彌補台電的虧損很合理大家也都接受但是這一個點卻因為我剛講的這幾個理由事實上無法被執行我覺得很可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12527.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12550.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我們也知道台電負擔這麼大的國家的為了平緩負價然後讓大家生活這樣好過有負擔這麼大的責任事實上在於一些點的時候我是覺得說適度的適度的要把台電的責任不用全部每天都去收啦像我剛才說的廢電的牌單係數這一個點這台電不用啦不一定一定要台電要負擔牌單係數吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12557.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12585.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
排碳係數是國家的責任啦齁那另外就是說確實現在也很多我們准購進來的綠電也慢慢他跟台電分手了直接賣給民間現在他們都直接賣給那個民間企業了而且賣給民間企業的都比台電的准收電價4點多塊還要高欸還要高啊所以事實上這個是有誘因的啊那既然看到了這個的誘因我覺得對台電而言就是一個他們壓力點的釋放 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12585.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12590.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
因為我就不用去控制我的排碳係數嘛 啊你說這個國家好像有點責任 沒錯台電還是要控制啦 這個還是 我們還是被環境部管制 還是要 但是就是說能夠賣給民間的 是我賣給民間還是要盡量去賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12610.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12614.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
現在的綠電觀念跟以前不一樣了以前的綠電好像台電賣10顆然後買的綠電好像是壓力很大現在沒有餒現在台電買綠電電到賣乎餒 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12624.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12643.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
買綠電給綠電公司一直去找民營事業他們還可以賣更高的價錢台電就只是卡在排炭係數那這個排炭係數我覺得適度的排炭係數也沒有說每一家企業他都會因為排炭係數他會去影響企業經營未必啦只有大型在做外銷國際企業他們才會有這樣的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12647.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12668.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以適度的我們可以這樣去思考好不好是是是好那我是覺得說這很辛苦啦但是我還是像剛剛深翰委員說的如果漲了電價整體對社會一些物價的一些影響評估我覺得這個要好好的思考然後要做一個比較詳細的一個報告好不好是是好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12675.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12675.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那我們請部長我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12706.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12723.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
部長好,謝謝部長我們剛才都提到電的問題那我現在要針對我們水的問題來跟您請教我們的山區的民眾的自來水的沿管工程或者是簡易自來水工程第一案就是在我們番鹿鄉大湖村1-120 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12725.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12745.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
沒有自來水的這個案件這總共是153戶那這個概估經費是1億餘元那第二案是我們梅山鄉龍眼村1-30那總共63戶這是要做簡易自來水的那第三案是主題龍山村90的部分總共34戶那總共的工程費大概是2000萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12747.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12768.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
第4案是我們竹崎鄉文豐村7-90的自來水沿管工程那有需求93戶那工程費用都是1900萬第5案是中埔鄉三層村那這個部分的需求有21戶這5案的需求總共是364戶那今天我們是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12768.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12795.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
透過這個場合向部長來去傳達說我們有這些需求希望經濟部能夠全力去協助讓我們的山區的民眾能夠得到自來水那我想這個對於我們山區民眾的這些權益還有這些平權這是非常重要的那很多在都會區的民眾可能還沒有辦法想像說還有許多人沒有辦法想用到自來水的這個基礎的人權我希望說部長能夠來全力協助這個部分可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12795.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12821.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
是 是 那委員具體提到了這個部分 那水利署都有這個在裡面 那我們會來增加這個協助的力道謝謝 謝謝 那也麻煩部長能夠緊盯 儘速的把它完成 因為這是一個基本的權益 我們還是希望能夠儘速的完成它那第二部分就跟電的部分有關 那是在我們嘉義縣中埔的河目地區的高壓電塔的這些地下化 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12822.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12836.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們中埔鄉現在是屬於這個河目地區是屬於都市計劃區那附近有未來中埔公館的工業區還在開發那人口未來會很聚集這地的民眾我們都很希望說這些老舊的高壓電腦完全地下化 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12837.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12856.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那完全地價化第一個是對市種當然是會有幫助那第二個部分是減少地震颱風的倒塌的風險那我想過去我們也一直談到這樣子的經費啦那整個經費可能超過10億元對於地方來講基本上要編列二分之一政府要至少5億元我聽說是已經不只是10億好像經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12857.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12885.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我昨天詢答地方的縣議員他們是答到說可能會到15億所以到目前為止還是停留在我們在反映地方的聲音的階段我們是希望有更新的進度在這個地方那部長其實最大的問題當然就是配合款那你也知道說非六都的這些縣市他的這個預算有限他的經費有限不知道經濟部是否可以同意先採取用專案辦理的方式來協助解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12887.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12909.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
向委員報告,那這個案子陳明文前委員在去年的11月有召開協調會在那個會上有做成決議就是在12月底台電要把相關的這個規劃報告要送出來那這個報告我們也在12月29號送給縣政府、嘉義縣政府了那嘉義政府收到之後那他們會做研議,研議說這個方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12911.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12916.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
您剛才提到的那個現在經費已經因為最近這段時間的物價的通膨等等已經漲到14億了14億快要到15億了是現在接近15億才如您所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12929.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12929.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12960.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12961.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
謝謝主席,我們請王部長跟台電董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12981.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13006.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
部長,我們台電目前虧損得非常嚴重,包含2023年單年虧損1985億,累積虧損達到3820億元,中間我們也還沒有去認列合適的2858億的興建費用,它等同於是一種負債。那台電如果是民間公司早就破產了,我想要問一下部長,我們台電現在是不是面臨到非常嚴峻的財務問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13008.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13016.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
對因為現在台電有還有很多的那個建設工程所以在金流上面因為這樣的虧損呢在像銀行貸款的部分確實是比較困難所以一個公司如果他是遇到財務問題的話那我問一下部長你會不會認為說我們在所有的花費上面都應該要審慎不管他是大錢是小錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13029.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13044.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
應該要運用在CP值最高的地方運用在合理的地方讓這些錢能夠發揮效用也才能夠跟我們的國人交代這個部長你同意嗎?是是所以這個是讓我覺得很懷疑的地方就是說我看我們的台電很有錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13045.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13048.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
因為台電既然財務狀況這麼差可是我們過去看到了台電在針對所謂的廣告採購的部分非常的鬆散我們可以看到112年從107年、108年、109年、110年、112年台電都同樣跟這家叫做放鹽科技傳媒股先有限公司的去做相關的採購每年都給人家50萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13074.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13088.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
五十萬雖然不是非常大的金額但是我們要問的是台電既然財政狀況這麼的差財務狀況這麼差是不是要用在刀口上我想有些內容部長或許不知道像我來跟您做一個簡報我們來看一下具體而言我們這個錢是怎麼花的結案報告是怎麼寫的我們先來看2018年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13095.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13098.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
2018年我們的結案報告提供的就是一個Banner然後呢我們結案報告這50萬喔50萬只刊在網站上面10天然後呢編輯式廣告兩則每個刊期45天等於說只有4個廣告而已然後走期10到45天這要發我們50萬這在2018年等一下會給你們時間回應2019年的時候一模一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13122.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13139.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
今天每年的狀況一模一樣兩則廣告45天兩則廣告10天隨便給你做一個微宣放上去只要50萬而2020年往後看三篇廣邊新聞就這樣三篇廣邊新聞再花50萬再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13140.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13158.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
2021��2021年一篇廣告五篇廣編十天的一期而已一檔的Banner 50萬再看下一年2023年終於今年有提供到的是一些相關的KPI但是一樣只走了20天那這些點閱率來講我都幫你們換算好了如果換算出來的話你會發現說其實它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13165.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13192.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
112年1月19日到2月7日點閱數只有567112年6月7日到6月21日點閱數只有423等於說是呢你的廣告投放預算非常的差為什麼會有這樣子的情況難道小錢就不是錢嗎難道你們投放廣告的時候不需要考慮他的CP值嗎這樣子的50萬廣告任何一家的大媒體都是比他還要便宜的宣傳效果都還是更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13193.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13197.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
為什麼過去我們會每年向這家公司做相關的媒體採購?你可以下廣告但是你不覺得這樣子的一個CP值太低了嗎?各項的媒體其他家有像這樣子這麼貴CP值這麼低嗎?我直接問您您覺得這樣每年的成效對台電的宣傳效用幫助是高還是低? |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13222.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13233.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
因為我們要做到每一個面向...你沒有回答到我的問題我只問你這樣子的一個專案每年花的50萬到底它對台電的宣傳的幫助是大還是小嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13235.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13243.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
所以你覺得很棒今年還要繼續執行明年還要繼續執行所以你沒有我今天就把成效都拿出來給你看了嘛從2018到2023嘛我就問如果你覺得下這樣的廣告對台電的宣傳推廣很有幫助那你今年要繼續下啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13254.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13272.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
如果你認為推廣沒有幫助、CP值太低的話那你今年不下你就只要回答我這個問題就好你們認為過去從107年到112年針對這家公司去下廣告的成果你覺得合理不合理?你覺得錢有沒有花在包口上?你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13273.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13291.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我想知道你的看法。我想知道的是政府部門對於下降幅廣告的看法。你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好?你不用管我覺得好不好,我只想聽你的答案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13293.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13298.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
還有什麼?還有跟媒體人的關係嗎?這點要考慮進來嗎?好,那如果你覺得很棒請你今年繼續下但如果你自己都覺得有點心虛了請你未來在媒體採購上面要注重媒體過去的CP值的表現到底對於台電的宣傳推廣有沒有幫助否則我們會覺得你今天要漲我們的電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13319.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13345.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
但是你過去花錢的時候是花得不眨眼隨便亂花CP值很差也花那這次你今天要漲大家電價的時候人民就沒有辦法接受請回去好好檢討謝謝謝謝委員呃徐委員謝謝好接下來我們請賴世保委員賴世保、賴世華委員不在現場我們請王世堅委員請詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13350.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13364.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
經理!不是笑,你要敬禮謝謝主席主席,我請部長我們再請王部長好,問好 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13373.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13385.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
部長其實我現在要問你的問題我剛才啊在財委會問過了那因為他們說這個上位政策是由經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13386.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13389.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我又提到了這個很可能就演變成21世紀科技版的木馬塗層劑啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13407.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13432.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
就是經濟部這70年來尚未政策擬定的要保護裕隆那這個裕隆汽車我想全民多數都知道大家有一個共識我們保護了裕隆但裕隆其實不怎麼漲進也就是說我們保護了這個阿斗70年 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13433.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13446.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
不曉得還要保護這個阿斗還要保護多久啦那現在很傷腦筋的是怎麼樣呢伊隆藉著我們國家的保護那區隔了所有的進口車 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13448.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13468.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
因為這些關稅、貨物稅它的免徵的這個部分保障來裕隆那裕隆如果說很長進他如果把車子做得很好讓我們可以外銷結果不是他一部也外銷不出去大概10年前吧那時候就想說讓他去進軍中國好了好啦進軍中國結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13474.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13499.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
到3年前他銷售率零煞雨而歸部長我們要他去反攻大陸他沒辦法現在反而被中共利用來木馬屠城天啊他利用我們對他的保護比方說這兩年來他引進了中共早就買去的MZ |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13502.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13523.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個車種我相信你們應該很清楚MT這個車種一進來來因為歐洲的車型大家還不曉得因為低價的關係國產車嘛稅金的優惠低價的關係要賣的大好上百億那部長這很傷腦筋的喔這要我們全民的血汗錢去保護他保護了誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13524.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13554.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
掩護了誰?掩護了中共的車子進到台灣不打緊下一個階段現在MD這個是油車下一個階段那就是電動車啦大家都曉得現在全世界最火紅的電動車那就是中國像他們比亞迪他們好多品牌啦那他們價格也低那麼他們打算藉由育農這個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13555.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13569.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那麼以零組件的方式進來我們台灣在台灣組裝,哎呀它變成國產車了天啊這會造成我們國家另類的國安危機因為電動車徒資的收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13570.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13592.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
他盡頭收集的這個圖資這就是為什麼我們國家這幾年來一直禁止採購中共的無人機的原因結果發生無人機進啊現在他用電動車來來收集你的圖資怎麼辦還有我們對自由世界這些友邦們他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13594.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13610.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
電動車也發展得很好而且他們品質很好啊我們對人家如何交代因為我們用關稅或誤稅阻隔了他們他們變成高價車輛怎麼來跟這一些在台灣組裝但是中國零件中國出口的車子 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13611.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13624.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
在台灣大行其道收刮我們台灣的車市資源所以我認為部長這個部分齁今天時間有限我希望你帶回去好好的來檢討跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13628.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13634.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
各部會檢討這個問題這是國安問題不是嗎我簡單說明一下齁那整車的部分的進口關稅台灣確實是還在齁但是整車在台灣組裝的部分其實現在主要不是裕隆現在主要整車組裝是包括TOYOTA包括福特他們在台灣組裝那重點是在這個組裝的下面齁TOYOTA、福特沒有去引進中共的車種 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13655.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13659.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
但是這些車在台灣組裝假設今天的這個關稅降下來的話那麼這樣的一個組裝包括零組件的生產會受到很大的衝擊所以部長你的意思就是說你就不用做了不是啊那這個部分這個部分我們也因應你中共那邊傾銷而來的化整為零在台灣組裝的車 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13679.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13680.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這些我們要設限不是嗎?上百億人你認為不是問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13702.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13712.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
目前還沒有這樣的一個困擾那因為業界他自己更在乎所以如果有這樣的一個困擾他自己怎麼會在乎呢他隨便只進一款就賣一萬多輛就上百億他怎麼會沒差現在如果整車進口的他可能是從比如說從泰國生產整車進口到泰國內我跟你說的不是整車中共化整為零把他們的汽車組件 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13730.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13730.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
剛委員報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13746.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13746.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
王世堅委員 敬禮 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13777.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13777.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
王美花王部長台電楊董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13795.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13798.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
今天我們的報告是針對電價調整對產業和民生衝擊的一個配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13813.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13828.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
其實我們電價問題要談得非常多但是我們很擔心的因為電價調升對於物價推升的威力實在是太大所以包含國發會主委昨天也承認就是如果電價調升10%的話那麼我們CPI可能調升因此而漲價0.3%或0.4%但我都覺得這只是模型 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13837.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13857.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
因為這事實上對於一般的服務業、小吃店、餐飲業等等之類它的物價推升的威力會更大可是我覺得我們現在整個的內閣今天進入了一個對物價麻木不仁我們今天好像只看到電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13859.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13888.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
部長你知道嗎?剛才我在財委會針對什麼呢?因為我們這幾年針對國際的一些原物料價格的上漲擔心衝擊物價所以我們有對一個所謂的關鍵原物料的關稅跟貨物稅的調降部長應該知道是 對不對?是那麼這個到什麼時候結束知道嗎?我們都是3個月左右會檢討一次好那最近是什麼時候會結束? |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13889.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13900.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
你們有很多跟你相關的喔還有相關的油氣類喔他們都會在結束之前我們跨部會就會討論這個會有院的層級來做跨部會討論整個螺絲吼掉光光對於物價衝擊掉光光我剛才講的關鍵原物料價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13914.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13933.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
只有在國發會跟財政部提到明明在3月31日這個月底大家渾然不覺反正就是照抄、複製貼上、複製貼少反正到3月31日到目前為止都沒有開會這是其一更可惡的是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13935.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13960.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
剛才會去那個我們未還委員會我問薛部長我說你知道我們CPI大家都知道我們這一年要漲很多第一類大概大家都知道食物類我說第二類你知道嗎他說不曉得欸沒有研究欸第二類是什麼是醫藥保健類醫藥保健類你看這個跟大家息息相關結果這兩天 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13963.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13982.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
他好死不死去宣布這個掛號費上限取消我說你有跟院長報告 沒有我說你有沒有跟管物價的副院長報告 沒有我說你們都這麼輕忽電價對物價上漲的這個推升的可能造成通貨膨脹 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13983.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14004.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
你們都不怕嗎?整個行政院現在大家是怎麼樣呢?每個人在數饅頭等著過日子嗎?到了520可能我就拜拜 Sayonara那還是說有些想辦法再去找什麼位置那我請問你啊為什麼關鍵原物料黃曉玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14005.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14005.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
每次漂浮以百分之三為上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14034.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14061.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
以前就告訴我們這次為什麼要到10%呢?所以以前的相關的規定是售高嗎?不是委員我也知道那現在這樣惡霧戰爭之後不是只有台灣全世界都有這個燃料大漲的問題你們又把惡霧戰爭拿出來囉這個是事實啊部長當時大家跟你講我們能源政策不能全部都靠天然氣啊因為天然氣佔的比例50%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14063.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14076.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
你說我們可以買到天然的能源我們可以買到便宜的天然氣可以買到便宜的能源便宜在哪裡若便宜現在怎麼還會這樣子呢如果當時是3%上限就是告訴你我們呢要給我們的業者也好或者給我們消費者一個緩衝空間現在沒有緩衝啊沖天炮 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14093.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14111.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
一下就要調10%我告訴你喔到了今年夏天大家會很有感從去年開始去年沒有調民生用電好多人就跟我反映說夏天的電價好貴喔所以你們是選後之後都無所謂了對不對選前假裝選後呢螺絲掉滿地怎麼會這樣子所以我在這邊鄭重要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14122.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14129.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
電價是經濟部的問題但是因為它推升是整個相關的產業跟民生消費物價你趕快回去敲醒鄭文燦敲醒陳建仁你們要趕快開跨部會會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14139.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14154.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
電價上漲一旦物價被勾起來甚至有哄抬的時候你要壓制都沒有辦法壓制所以我就問薛瑞媛說你們到底要逼死誰啊連這個連掛號被你的上限到取消早不取消晚不取消這個時候取消你是覺得怎麼樣你們很好過人民很不好過不是這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14159.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14170.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
所以我在這邊我覺得我們今天的報告非常好就是告訴你對產業、對民生衝擊是什麼立法院都這麼在乎行政院不要再掉以輕心謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14181.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14182.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
馬文君議員、鍾嘉斌議員黃伯昌議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14212.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14230.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
謝謝主席麻煩有請那個經濟部的部長跟台電的代理董事長那總經理也可以上來因為有些業務如果董事長不知道總經理可以代打沒有關係好 我也好 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14232.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14254.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
三位好時間的關係不一一問候2012年馬政府油電雙漲導致民怨沸騰那個時候我們在檢討電價調整的必要性的時候民主進步黨有一個立法委員叫林佳龍我覺得他那時候質詢的很有道理說 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14257.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14276.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
電價要漲,結果台電還在養肥貓我家榮學長用的字比較重他用堅守制道他那時候批評台電的總經理圖正義退休以後轉任台灣大電力研究試驗中心的董事長他認為這個是台電在養肥貓 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14279.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14305.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那時候針對這樣子的批評經濟委員會也通過了一個腐敗的決議以後這種退休轉任的事情必須要受到限制那我現在的問題就來了當初台電的總經理退休轉任台灣大電力研究事業中心董事長民進黨那時候在野是強烈批判說這個是台電養肥貓 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14308.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14335.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
現在台電的副總經理退休以後一樣到台灣大電力研究事業中心當董事長算不算是養肥貓他是用他的專業轉任到這邊來所以那個時候是養肥貓現在不是養肥貓標準不一樣就對了這個是委員個別的質詢那對我們來說我們很慎重來看待這個職位我只有一個簡單的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14336.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14345.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
當初怎麼要求人家的怎麼批判人家的現在就不要幹一樣的事情啊別人是養肥貓民進黨幹就不是養肥貓 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14347.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14366.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
第二個問題當初經濟委員會裡面的附帶決議附帶決議的內容說退休了以後不可以到民營事業去做嘛但那個時候沒有規範到經濟部或者是台電所實質控制的財團法人部長認為這個規範有沒有修正的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14368.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14371.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
你砍了以後月薪不是才將近10萬嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14391.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14400.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
我剛請教那個部長的問題或者是總經理要回答也可以那個時候只有規定說退休了以後轉任是你們下面的子公司的受到限制嘛你們控制的財團法人沒有嗎這個規範有沒有檢討的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14421.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14442.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
當然現在去這些財團法人都是台電因為他是台電投資的嘛所以都是台電的同仁或者是出去的問題很簡單啦一個是公司的形式啦一個是財團法人的形式啦但是從旋轉能條款的意思來講不應該因為這兩個就有區別對待了所以我的問題很具體我拜託台電回去再去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14443.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14471.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
如果針對質公司有這樣的限制針對財團法人需不需要有相同或類似的限制我的要求只有這個樣子時間的關係我邁入第二個主題剛剛也有委員質詢說台電在通過一些廣告標案的時候用限制型的標案去給特定的網媒特定的網媒就預告的放眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14472.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14483.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
台電剛剛總經理回答嘛說你們有整體的評估嘛那整體的評估完了以後你剛剛可能時間不夠剛剛那個委員沒有給你具體的回答來你評估完了以後覺得成效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14487.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14502.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
現在委員報告齁我們希望的是各個面向的不是嘛!你錢花下去了這個石頭丟到水裡面去了有沒有效果台電花錢總是要有評估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14503.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14518.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我這樣說應該沒有錯吧?是那所以我剛問你因為我剛在下面聽你有聽到你評估的結果是什麼所以我現在請教你給你時間回答啊評估的結果怎麼樣因為成效卓著有達到預期的結果所以不斷的給不斷的給繼續給是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14521.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14548.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
我們並沒有每一年都給放鹽委員看到這個數字那沒有關係嘛你18年給完了以後你不是19年給嗎你19年給完了以後你20年又給嘛20年給完了以後你21年又給嘛那我的問題很簡單嘛我說你連續幾年每年這樣給有說錯嗎我給你時間欸給你時間解釋欸你的成效是怎麼評估的欸說出來給台灣社會大眾聽一聽啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14550.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14557.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
你有關係啊!我現在問的是你怎麼評估的嘛還是反正我就是有這麼多錢錢我就是要花我錢就是掌握在手上我愛給誰就給誰成效都不用評估是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14575.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14595.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
沒有 我們都會評估好 評估的結果是什麼解釋給大家聽嘛因為我看不出來啊那主要是因為剛剛提過了我的同樣的一個人他事實上接觸的面向很廣有可能在媒體上接觸不要講空的嘛 剛剛你說有評估嘛我給你講評估的結果請告訴大家我完全沒講話我開放式的給你回答評估的結果是什麼跟大家講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14603.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14613.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
因為這個牽涉到幾十家將近100家的這個媒體 這數字我可能還沒有 一時記不起來沒有啊 我全部都去調了啊 你們剛連續給的啊 沒有成效報告啊 空白啊 在哪裡 我負責任的去調資料回來看欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14624.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14637.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
好不容易看到有成效報告的哇我看了大驚失色啊成效非常好啊點閱567次點閱423次錢這樣花的這個是在這個單獨個案我們看到的對這個就是我的問題了嘛這個單獨的個案效果這麼差沒有成效報告每年前還繼續給到底是為了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14651.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14654.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
幫民進黨養車役嗎?這就是我的問題啊!我的問題很簡單嘛!你的錢!你的錢!都是納稅人的錢!台電需要幫忙!大家需要用電! |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14680.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14681.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
我們台電來檢討一下 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14703.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14723.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
接下來我們請林德福委員、林德福、林德福委員不在現場我們請徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在現場我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在現場我們請蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在現場我們請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14724.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14731.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我們請劉許廷委員不在現場我們請王美惠委員不在現場我們請林俊憲委員不在現場我們請羅志強委員請做詢談主席有請部長我們再請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14761.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14781.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
緊張上漲的電價對於一般人民不論是有固定收入或平日收入不足的人民都是很大的負擔那這句話你認同嗎對電價的部分我們會去考慮相關過往幾次的調整也都會考慮相關的民生跟物價的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14782.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14796.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
這個政府在感受人民的痛苦跟人民的感覺差很遠我覺得很多的漲價要從長計要這麼短時間這麼巨大的漲幅對一般人民來講真的是很大的負擔請問你認同這句話嗎我們會考慮相關的影響這個都會當審議委員會來做參考那你知道這句話誰說的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14806.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14832.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
是蔡英文總統說的他在2012年4月20日評價馬英九總統的油電雙漲千萬不能漲電價勸他結果他還是蠻幹民進黨一直呼籲馬政府不要漲電價結果他還是蠻幹這句話誰說的這句話是民進黨的前主席蘇貞昌也是前院長蘇貞昌講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14833.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14859.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我想請教部長4月份漲電價是屬實的嗎?有這個方向了嗎?我們確實有規劃是平均漲幅是多少?媒體報導台電說大概10個百分點是對的嗎?目前都還在討論當中那你覺得大概要漲多少?你們的原案是要漲多少?原案我們優先來爭取政府的補貼那補貼之外希望今年台電能夠不要再繼續虧損補貼之外你會漲多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14861.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14879.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
那這個要看補貼的你們是主管機關你臺電跟經濟部總有個想法吧不然你叫大家怎麼去看這個電價審議會臺電他會提出一些相關的幾個方案然後審議會去討論我想請問齁蔡英文總統說過10年不會大漲電價對不對這個有前提那委員二屋戰爭也是沒有人想過的我想請教您他講過這句話10%算不算大漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14893.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14903.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
10% 10個百分點算不算大漲這個你要看時空背景還有這個相關的成本的情形那2018年4月漲了3個百分點算不算大漲2018年3%之內其實是授權台電可以去2022年7月漲8.4個百分點算不算大漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14918.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14943.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這個都是在算相關的成本跟...2023年4月齁,漲11個百分點算不算大漲這個是我們的這個電價的成本在反映的問題8年下來不算這一次,漲了22.4百分點請問算不算大漲所以我剛才有跟委員講啊你這個惡霧戰爭的情況是沒有人會...前面都沒有惡霧戰爭喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14945.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14949.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我算過了馬政府有漲有漲八年大概漲了20個百分點你如果不算這一次已經漲了22個百分點 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14968.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14981.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那如果嘛政府當時是蘇貞昌口中的霸道蔡英文口中的與人民感覺差很遠那我想我不知道現在算不算霸道算不算跟人民感覺差很遠那電價一漲所有東西都會漲嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14985.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15009.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
所以我們一直都非常謹慎在處理那我問你齁因為我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候問過NCC的人士我說NCC人士是重大的一個人事案齁問他會不會跟賴清德總統當選人商量他說會那我想請問你電價算不算重大的一個事件電價算是重大事件那你會不會跟新政府尊重新政府跟賴清德當選人溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15011.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15039.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這個我們政府之間有相關的這個部分那因為他本來也是我們的副總統那我想問賴清德總統當選人是同意還是不同意目前都是蔡總統在執政我說你跟他溝通他的意見是親向是同意還是不同意這個部分在內部的討論我想這個總統在賦權我講的是賴總統當選因為我們陳院長講說中大政策要跟他商量啊你有沒有跟他商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15040.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15066.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
你剛才有商量啊但是商量總有一個傾向嘛他是贊成還是不贊成大的原則就是說目前的台電的狀況我在請教你你也對電價的歷史很了解嘛這個2008年那時候馬總統有點雙漲嘛可是電價的調漲累積不是他上任才開始嘛是在前任的總統開始可是馬總統什麼時候調漲?看守政府那時候有沒有調漲? |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15069.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15089.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我講的是2008那一次2016那個都是前期啊那我要現在講就是說這些電價的調漲我覺得你們還是要跟賴清德總統當選人講清楚他是希望你們先幫他拆掉炸彈呢還是他就是非常認同你們現在4月來調漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15091.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15119.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
你等一個月讓新政府來漲電價讓他來去面對這個民意的檢驗不是更符合看守政府的職份嗎我們政府間之間都會有內部的討論以上謝謝你好謝謝接下來我們請林柱英委員林柱英林柱英委員不在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15120.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15146.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我們請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在現場我們請林楚昀委員林楚昀委員林楚昀委員不在現場我們請李柏毅委員李柏毅委員李柏毅委員不在現場我們請洪孟凱委員請做詢答主席謝謝麻煩請王美花部長我們請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15151.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15173.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
好,委員好部長,我在就較剛羅志強委員的問題喔您剛剛講是說跟蔡英文總統跟賴清德總統當選這邊有討論過電價調漲等等的那你剛剛到最後突然間漏口講說這都是總統這邊反而會做一個全面的評估我的意思是說現在是蔡總統在執政是蔡總統的任內那所以說電價調漲蔡總統這邊會批准是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15177.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15179.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那你這樣子以前都把推脫說電價調漲是電價審議委員會綜合評估判斷考量專業結果現在原來不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15196.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15201.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
原來真相就是說這是長官要調就調,長官不調就不調啊因為你剛剛已經露口啦大的方向沒有錯但是我現在說的就是每一次都推給說哇3月的時候電價審議委員會委員會開會討論專業評估判斷我們沒有辦法去那個過問9月的時候電價審議委員會動漲的時候就是專業考量現在不動漲要漲的也是專業考量不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15226.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15231.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
你剛剛突然講的原來露口了520前要下台前大家誠實了 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15233.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15241.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
就是可以直接講實話了就是長官嘛所以去年為什麼連級長連級長我們動長是因為選舉要到了現在酸計酸料啊選票沒壓力了趕快趁現在補回來各位報告因為我報告也有講我們優先要爭取政府補貼我跟政府補貼我當然要跟長官報告說這個狀況台電的情形那這個當然要跟長官報告所以這不是電價審議委員會他可以獨立專業來評估判斷嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15259.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15267.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
還是有很多的執政黨的壓力或說執政黨的一個push嗎?如果說今天有補助比較多就可以減少比較少漲嗎?是不是?那當然啦所以我們優先還是希望來增加政府的補貼部長,感謝你講實話啦我們一定要長官支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15277.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15303.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
在520前這個新舊內閣交替的時候本席越來越希望是說可以多講一些實話讓國人更看得清楚來再來請教今天我們的這一個報告叫做條漲對於產業民生衝擊的研擬配套措施那看起來2024年今年電價條漲應該是漲定了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15306.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15309.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
就目前的狀況補貼電價的調漲才能夠讓台電的財務平整那漲定了那我們今年的配套措施在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15316.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15320.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
這裡面我們有提到齁我們包括有我們包括說你只有來來來部長來部長本席看得非常清楚喔你這邊只有回顧歷史啊回顧歷史回顧什麼歷史回顧2022年2023年電價調漲的配套你所謂的照顧民生穩定物價以及兼顧產業但說實在話 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15341.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15352.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
都是講得非常的籠統啦而且重點就在於是說政府能做的已經做了但是要漲還是百般無奈啦但是2024年啊之字未提啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15353.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15376.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以換言之我們如果說現在如果說方向真的已經長定了我覺得今天召委開這個專案報告非常的好啊就重點就是說我們想要知道2024年如果說真的長定了你外面的媒體都已經放話大家都覺得是說就是要漲了海嘯要來了民生物價要調漲了壓力會變更大了成本會增加了我們經濟部或相關部會到底有什麼作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15377.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15390.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
第一個我的報告不能這樣講我報告裡面有提到政府的預算在補貼產業你沒有任何的實質的作為所以我們的補貼讓大家可以去購買節能的部分你的結語我真的有看到你的結語是如果說最後會漲啦政府還會依照反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費原則辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15406.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15431.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所以你通篇今天7月的報告最後結論就是這個你2024年漲價會告訴全國人民說我們現在方案訂了沒有我不知道我們有沒有措施不知道我們有沒有什麼補貼不知道我們有沒有分級劇不知道到底是用戶少用量少的人少漲一點用量多的人多漲一點我們後續的補助方案不知道但是告訴大家啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15432.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15460.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳使用者付費這就是你的結論嗎?我們的報告就是讓大家在過往我們在調漲電價的時候本來就都有這些大顏色讓大家可以清楚那不就又是照本宣科又是沒有照本宣科啊又是跟以往一模一樣我們推大家來購買節能減碳的設備這個不是都是對的方向嗎?部長你這樣講那就跟過馬路要 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15461.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15474.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
綠燈要過馬路紅燈不要過馬路就交通規則就是告訴大家只要大家遵守這個規則就可以減少交通事故只要大家購買節能減碳的物品我們就可以減少用電這不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15475.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15477.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
國人跟本席 我想我今天會花那麼多時間其實我討論只有一個重點我們重點就是說經濟部到底準備好了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15496.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15517.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
如果說今年4月就像你講的我今天真的很多東西我準備很多資料我都不想講譬如說大家有講是說你的原物料上漲因為二污戰爭所以原物料上漲所以藍媒的這個價格燃氣的價格等等的但是其實我們也查到資料燃氣從去年初就已經降到跟戰前差不多的一個原物料價格了嗎沒有沒有現在還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15517.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15518.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
這些其實都是國人想要去探究的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15530.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15554.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
之前經濟委員會是不是也有要過說我們到底我們藍媒藍企的這個相關採購合約到底採購多少錢但是這些也都是機密也都沒有辦法給提供給我們的媒體代表可以公開的部分就是有隱藏非常多的一個資訊我現在講的是說到底我們如果說今年4月真的要調漲電價我們準備好了沒後續的配套措施出來沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15556.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15558.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
分析從開始到現在只想講的是說既然民進黨政府已經確定的方向就一定要調漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15584.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15594.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那真的該做準備要做準備那還有最重要的是電價為什麼跟其他比如說接下來我們要問是水費也要漲嗎?瓦斯費也要漲嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15596.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15618.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
還有最重要電價為什麼那麼重要就是因為它是全部產業最重要的一個核心而且不管是民生不管是一般的老百姓電價一漲人民有感而且那個感受是帶動整個物價通膨上漲最主要的元兇這是簽一法而動全身這一些都是經濟部不可迴避的問題不是說等到520變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15620.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15620.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15653.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15657.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
主要就是人民真的很辛苦通膨 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15681.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15703.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
讓人民非常辛苦,薪水又沒有漲所以在這個階段整個配套未定還好審議委員會還沒有做出決定所以我們透過這樣子的一個討論也給政府部門可以好好的再去研討我們希望能夠以照顧民生穩定物價為基準這是非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15704.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15732.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
好,我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束我們有委員王美惠委員、劉建國委員、牛許廷委員所提的書面質詢我們列入公報刊登公報那書面質詢以及未答覆的部分請相關單位於一個禮拜之內呢以書面答覆並複製給本會那本週的議程處理完畢現在上會謝謝我們議事組人員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15742.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15746.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15757.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15765.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
議員的簡報筆好像丟在前面。簡報筆?你要馬上拿,有時候委員搞不清楚。你要問那個後面。那個有一個簡報筆,沒有看到。 |