| IVOD_ID |
15693 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15693 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-06T08:31:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-06T13:34:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:02:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685370e55bcfbb05b21ea093030673645f93be8d109af184be4aba6c93ba8ed1c065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:06 - 13:34:00 |
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137.715 |
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139.544 |
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本集完 |
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1797.588 |
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1806.373 |
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好,出席委員已足法定人數,我們現在開會,請議事院員宣讀上次會議議事錄。立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議議事錄,時間113年3月4日星期一,9時2分至13時17分,地點群賢樓801會議室,出席委員陳昭芝等15人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1819.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1832.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席委員林德福等32人、列席官員、行政院食品安全辦公室主任許甫及衛生福利部部長薛瑞元等相關人員、主席王兆吉委員喻敏。報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄,決定確定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1835.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1857.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討進行專題報告．並備質詢。本次會議由衛生福利部部長薛瑞元報告後委員陳昭資等22人提出質詢均經行政院食品安全辦公室主任及衛生福利部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1858.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1859.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1884.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1885.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
現在介紹在場的委員及列席的官員蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1909.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1935.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
陳金輝委員．黃秀芳委員．莊瑞雄委員．林月琴委員．王振旭委員那接下來我們介紹列席的官員．勞動部許明春部長．勞動力發展署蔡孟良署長．勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長．職業安全衛生署周子蓮署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1937.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1961.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
勞動關係司王厚偉司長勞動保險司陳美女司長勞動福祉退休司謝倩倩司長勞動條件及就業平等司黃維琛司長介紹外交部亞東太平洋司許書智副司長張千彥副參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1963.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1989.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
領事事務局簽證組柯孝宗組長、衛生福利部長照司助建方司長、疾管署郭俊賢副組長、內政部宗教及理智司葉唐根生專門委員、移民署國際及執法事務組張文秀組長、 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1991.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2003.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
警政署國際組甘延明副組長國家安全局陳專門委員好以上那現在我們就請勞動部許部長報告報告時間5分鐘謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2011.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2025.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
各位委員先進：各位記者女士先生大家好：感謝貴委員會邀請本部就開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場的衝擊進行報告：也請各位委員給予指教：國發會退僱工作年齡人口從112年的1620萬人減少至119年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2034.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2057.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
570,000人7年就減少了113萬人基層勞動力嚴重不足製造業營造業缺工問題嚴重施能照顧需求日增移工需求有逐漸增加的趨勢那截至112年底在台移工累計是75.4萬人絕大多數來自印尼、越南、菲律賓及泰國四個國家製造業以越南及22.2萬人最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2059.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2079.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
社福類印尼籍是7.9萬人最多．只要任何一個國家減少或停止輸出．會立即衝擊我國移工的來源．相較於臨近開放移工的國家．日韓都有15國．新加坡有11國．我國僅有4國．僱主團體及大院曾多次要求積極開發新移工來源國． |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2081.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2105.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
新增來源國有其必要．而且主要是為了降低對有限來源國的依賴風險提供僱主多一個選擇僱主可自行選擇來源新增來源國並沒有新開放移工行業也沒有放寬僱主的資格或調高移工人數的比率僱主仍需符合申請資格並立規定來核算移工的名額臺印的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2106.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2131.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
合作MOU以及明定引進移工的行業及人數由我方決定本部將在既有開放的行業內跨部會來評估需求及本國勞工就業的情形與印度洽商我方所需要的引進的移工行業及人數並依我國要求培訓及招募依舊服法的規定僱主引進移工以前需依合理的勞動條件、薪資規定辦理國內求採程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2134.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2159.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
招募本國勞工有不足耳才能申請引進移工既有法定國內求採程序及新制的基準不會因為新增來源國而改變也不影響國人就業機會及勞動條件本部多年來持續透過外交管道探尋及洽商新移工來源的可能但都沒有辦法順利建立合作關係今年臺印度已經在多項領域開展交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2160.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2183.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
並自109年起陸續洽商勞工的合作意願在互惠互利的基礎下逐步促成合作共識印度人口超過14億人有人口紅利並鼓勵勞工赴海外工作我國勞動力結構改變有引進的需求雙方均有高度的合作意願應積極掌握契機簽署MOU警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2183.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2206.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
合作框架協議後續會透過工作層級的會議進一步來協商合作的細節簽署以後不會立即引進更沒有網路謠傳引進10萬名印度移工的規劃在簽署的程序上依印度方的提議雙方合作已有視訊簽署MOU的先例臺印度雙方代表已經在113年2月16日採視訊的方式簽署 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2210.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2238.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
勞工合作MOU．外交部2月26日通知本部．雙方已經完成範文簽署．本部將依條約地解法．在30天內報請行政院備查以後．送大院來查照及對外周知。．印度赴海外工作達1800萬人．而且持續增加．德國、義大利、法國、中東等國都有引進．以色列近期也規劃擴大引進．日本已經簽署．韓國也正在洽簽 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2239.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2267.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
印度移工多從事建築業、製造業、家事及農業工作符合我國引進的需求德國、義大利及中東長期引進印度勞工皆評價為高品質的勞動力印度將因我方的需求培訓及招募印度移工可確保移工的素質另外,全球比較犯罪指數2024年評比的結果印度優於加拿大、義大利、英國、法國等國又德國、義大利 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2268.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2293.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
以色列日韓爭取印度移工,顯見引進印度移工沒有犯罪治安的疑慮,而且所有移工來臺都需檢據當地行為良好證明,這個可以避免影響社會安定。令我國正式公告引進印度移工以前,會依法認可當地醫院的檢驗能力,並要求印度移工依我國規定進行馬診及身體檢查等健康檢查, |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2293.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2312.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
並提供合格的報告,降低境外傳染病,影響我國的防疫。印度約有八成人口信徒教,一成是回教徒,還有基督教等其他宗教。印度憲法已經明文禁止種姓制度歧視行為。種姓制度不適用外國人,來台工作並沒有問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2313.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2333.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
令印度較普遍素食且多樣．而臺灣的素食及各式餐食選擇多元．應有助於印度移工適應臺灣的社會MOU已經明定開放行業跟人數由我方決定．印度將依我方的需求招募及訓練．雙方將透過工作層級的會議來討論執行細節．本部將協同相關部會審慎研議．廣納社會意見．循序漸進務實來辦理．本部也會參考其他國家引進模式．邀請相關部會． |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2343.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2370.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
勞僱團體及學者專家等提供諮詢意見省慎來評估我方的需求優先以具備一定學競力英文家的印度勞工為對象初期我們採小規模示範引進如果實施的成效良好再漸進來評估開放印度移工廣受各國信賴並擴大引進新增印度移工來源只是提供雇主多一個選擇可降低移工來源依賴的風險並不是放寬雇主資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2370.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2389.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
也沒有新增開放可禁用移工的行業或挑高可禁用移工的比率不會影響本國勞工就業機會社會治安及防疫的安全本部將循序漸進、穩健務實妥善規劃後續的工作並聆聽各界的聲音及意見加強社會溝通以消除疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2389.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2408.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
省省與印度持續來磋商開放的細節．並把關印度勞工的素質．讓產業及家庭受益．讓社會安心以上報告懇請各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝好謝謝部長的一個報告有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2409.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2433.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那我們現在開始詢答做以下的宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員若有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息5分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案若有提案請儘早提出以利益事進行那接下來我們請登記第一位蘇清泉委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2443.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2467.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好,謝謝主席,也謝謝委員跟我互調趕快去東港我請部長好,請許部長不定也當工人我們還是東港高小的傑出校友好,部長,我們現在外籍移工進來臺灣總共75萬多人對,目前有在臺北住的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2474.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2484.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
去年3.1萬那前年4.1萬那這幾年會比較多是因為因為前幾年那個疫情影響那邊際管制移工進不來整個供需失調所以尤其在111年的時候哇整個人數我們失聯率達到5.96那去年已經降下來4點多 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2501.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2520.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那你現在要引進印度的移工那你的理想台灣是要需要多少移工才是屋頂是差不多多少報告委員我們其實移工的總數我們其實會有一些評估那目前來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2522.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2550.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
移工的引進其實跟失聯那是兩個議題那移工的引進的部分我們只要是看國內的缺工狀態那其實以目前來講整個缺工還是所以隨時調整隨時調整他的上限人數理想人數我們沒有一個上限人數我們現在就是警戒指標我們是用警戒指標來看就是說如果這個可能看警戒指標這個移工的引進有需要緊縮那我們會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2552.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2569.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主委現在年輕人最擔心最擔心最擔心的就是什麼一直進來會不會影響他們的就業第二個會不會影響他們的薪資拉不上來第三個婦女同胞最關心的是治安這個你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2570.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2588.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第一個報告委員我們移工的引進是一個補充性原則我們的就業還是以本國人優先所以縱使是開放的行業開放引進移工的行業雇主先必須進行依照我們目前國內的薪資條件去進行招募 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2589.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2616.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
找不到人他才可以進移工所以基本上不會去影響到本國的就業機會那第二個薪資因為其實本外勞是平等待遇原則這個移工進來像製造業他一樣要適用基本工資所以這個不會去拉我在東港看到一個很很shock的這個場景就是我們台灣的年輕人宋夫胖達 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2617.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2619.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
請勞動部長、外交部、內政部、國家安全局就業市場之衝擊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2639.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2643.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員其實還好,因為他們畢竟在船上可能要上來陸地 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2652.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2671.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個去用餐可能不太方便那這個外送其實不管本國人外國人大家都是一個很方便的一個可以用餐的方式不過剛剛委員有講到那個犯罪率的問題我剛才跟委員報告其實在目前已經有引進印度移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2672.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2686.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
的這些國家裡面他們的犯罪率是偏低的那縱使以我們現在已經引進的已經有移工我們家四個國家我們有做過移工犯罪率的一個調查了解他其實本比本國人犯罪率大概就是一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2689.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2698.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個都會講到又會講到說有種族啊什麼這個不能講就像你講說胡適一樣你講到胡適這個是很敏感的問題好我第二個問題要問巴士亮表開放就放寬之後這個是侯友宜選總統的時候他提出來那是我提的啦我是醫療後援會總會長 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2717.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2740.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
開放之後真的是讓很多高齡的比較方便因為我第一線的意思我也沒有在想給很好,這是一個好的政策過去8年都不做,等到人家提出來就馬上做那現在看護,外籍看護移工也包括看護嘛現在看護開放之後,你們的回饋是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2741.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2755.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是讓這些家庭真的最近開放了不少齁讓他們都減輕了不少的負擔部長你剛有說回饋就基層的回饋有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2758.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2778.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們現在不僅用巴士量表,我們有多元認定方式目前採多元認定方式的人到今年2月15日為止大概7700多人,申請上會更方便,包括我們也簡化重聘的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2781.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2795.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第三個比較敏感的問題這些外勞、外籍移工他們都身強體壯、年輕力壯他們進到臺灣僱主跟他分攤都有繳健保費嘛對不對那他們有使用健保嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2796.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2818.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那這些外籍移工或者是外籍的配偶來到臺灣他們都有繳健保費然後使用健保我給大家粗算這些人的生病的比例不高啦像移工大部分都是意外所以我們的健保局應該是有結與的有結與喔沒有說結果比較多那同樣的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2826.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2850.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
大陸來的配偶也是年輕力壯也是要繳健保費使用健保所以有說不一樣嗎為什麼要給他搞成說會耗用健保等等我是覺得這是沒有邏輯啦那你健保的費用不夠那是你另外一個issue另外一個題目就是說你的健保不夠你就提高匯率嘛提高健保費等等所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2851.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2879.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個是比較敏感的問題,大家要了解,我這裡跟大家報告再來接續的問題,我們那個漁船從正常管道進來的漁工兩爺啦,這都用檢報嘛,都有檢報還有勞保都有顧主要負擔的比例那有另外一種就是在遠洋漁船上,像東港啊、蘇澳啊、高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2881.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2910.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個遠洋漁船上面的遠洋漁工他是不用投保的喔不用投保勞保也不用投保健保喔這個他們只有保意外險而有這個部長你有什麼看法阿他們在船上不能下馬頭因為他是屬於遠洋漁業境外的移工這個跟近海的不一樣近海是歸勞動部阿遠洋這部分是農業部他的主管機關是農業部這個就是一個大漏洞阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2911.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2928.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他們在漁船上不能下船但是都跑下來啦然後他們要吃的便當是我們這邊送那不少啦,一萬多人呢?詳細數目是多少?你不知道嗎?我不曉得,這要問農業部所以我們很多外,逃跑的這些漁工那種會跑出來也很多耶在那邊,在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2937.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2937.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
請勞動部主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2946.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2973.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那印度進來我們印度的移工進來我們是非常的也贊成但是你剛剛講年輕人的餘力跟婦女的餘力這個希望勞動部要審慎的評估少量的進來然後要注意看他們後續那這些外勞的犯罪率就像部長你講的比較少還是少到多少說是不是有沒有逆暴的等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2974.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2990.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以這個我們是非常的關注這個問題,希望部長要注意。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。接下來我們請林月琴委員進行質詢。有請我們的部長還有署長和我們的張文秀組長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3012.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3027.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
在2023年因為要引進簽訂MOU就有些民間團體有反彈所以本席瞭解社會的討論大概分幾個面向也就是說MOU簽訂人數代表的意義跟開放移工來源國 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3028.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3050.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
會不會衝擊到本國人的就業和移工是否造成臺灣治安的一些隱憂那請問部長在去年9月之後勞動部到底有沒有持續跟民間團體尤其是對政策有疑慮的團體做說明具體的說明次數跟方式還有你的對象這個我請署長、業務單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3052.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3079.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
跟委員報告因為去年因為主要是在國會公共政策平台有幾個民間團體我們其實透過那個聯繫的資訊因為他只有留那個email沒有任何其他資訊我們是透過email希望能夠跟他取得一些資訊的一些一些不過目前為止我們大概發送的他們大概都沒有回訊所以這個我們要再努力希望勞動部這邊要去做處理因為還是要去解除因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3079.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3080.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3104.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3126.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
就是我們要開放引進這個作業程序那我想請問部長這邊這一關一關的那循序漸進部長有沒有輸入的地方請你一一的補充做說明讓你有這個機會來把它講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3128.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3151.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
對報告委員我們現在就是MOU雙方視訊簽署了然後226我們接到外交部的文現在就是已經換約完畢那接下來呢我們就是依照條約締結法條約締結法12條規定我們要在30天內報行政院備查之後我們會送來大院立法院這邊那也會讓各界周知所以這個部分我們接下來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3152.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3161.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在這個步驟裡的第10號行政院立法院查照這邊那接下來我們這個整個完成以後那接下來我們就會展開 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3162.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3185.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
雙方的工作層級會議這些主要討論的就是像委員這邊講的行業數額、評估資格等等這些細節那這個部分我們到時候也是會邀請目的事業主管機關像經濟部、衛福部、農業部、內政部他們有這個開放的行業請他們一起來參與然後瞭解說他們的缺工狀況、需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3186.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3214.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
需要怎麼樣勞工技術條件等等會在這個工作層級會議來來討論然後這邊大概會多久我目前還不曉得因為可能還要看後續大家的討論是不是順利像日本日本他們去年簽了他們光工作層級會議就開了一年所以我也不曉得我們這邊的狀況或許大家如果順利的話就會很快然後對然後接下來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3217.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3236.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個討論以後那我們就會決定開放的行業人數還有招募訓練等等那整個籌備工作都完成以後我們才會正式依法公告說印度是我們新增的移工來源部所以部長這看起來我這邊整理的事實上是沒有缺漏的對沒有缺漏那下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3239.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3264.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
從去年開始媒體就一直看到說要引進10萬名印度移工這樣的新聞標題之後讓民眾是感到恐慌的所以本席認為應該要及早說明清楚你不論MOU上臺印雙方約定的人數那是一個總量的概念嘛對不對那實際上就是入境的人數還是要看雇主他主案的提出申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3266.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3291.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那政府許可之後才可以引進那政府是否許可還要看我們的外勞的警戒的指標上的一些變化變好放寬許可變壞緊縮許可那可惜這個指標總體的和產業社福這三大項裡邊這個從2022年事辦之後一直沒有讓國人充分瞭解才會有這樣的隱憂戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3293.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3313.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以包括這指標怎麼去判斷這19項而且如何依據它變化做調整直到現在這個重要的訊息我覺得社會大眾不太瞭解我想相關的人員也不是這麼瞭解所以請問一下這個外籍外勞的警戒指標的資訊非常不透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3314.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3334.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以想問的是就會讓大家帶風向的人帶風向使得我們的民眾更大的憂慮所以會後兩週內是不是可以公布這個外勞警戒指標完整說明而且特別是指標跟許可寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3335.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3362.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
緊縮之間的關係讓社會大眾知情那可以的話你是用什麼方式來讓大家知道好 謝謝委員我們其實像我們都會定期開這個這個政策小組會議那這是勞資政協各方代表那開會完我們其實都會在網站公開我們相關的會議的這些資訊不過委員剛剛有這樣子講我才想說因為大家現在對於這個移工如果說還需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3364.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3388.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
警戒指標各方面需要進一步的我覺得我們有這個義務那未來這個臺運臺運會用多元的管道讓大家來知道這個未來這個臺運勞務合作案是不是也是在這個置入裡邊同樣去運作來增加移工來源不改變原有的許可規則這個我們這個警戒指標是在決定比較就是說它人數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3390.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3390.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
來 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3417.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3443.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
上大家真的很擔心的就是會不會衝擊到我們國人優先就業所以想問傳統對於移工開放行業的標準在低技術性的勞工工作可是隨著國內缺工這個想問的是你現在這個修正法規修正所影響的是移工名額上的增加還是會是針對一樣同樣是低技術性的勞工工作這個原則做放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3446.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3469.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
基本上因為我們其實就是針對蘭嶺的移工蘭嶺的移工才有開放那目前就是像製造業3K產業像這些3K產業它有缺工的話那我們就會經濟部會提案我們再來做就會經過政策小組來評估才會開放才會開放下一位因為有時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3473.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3488.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
要秉除我們的偏見歧視現在歧視有兩個一個是犯罪這一塊那對於刑方不明移工若我看數據還是維持在8萬多若剛剛部長報告說你112年有更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3491.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3519.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那在處理因為人數更多所以是不是能夠針對這個也讓大家知道那個犯罪率第一公開比較清楚說明的確看114國人的犯罪率是每萬人114.12那四國過去移工在臺灣事實上是每萬人是59.46可是到底我們國人到底了不了解這種狀況並沒有另外一個就是國人一直對於所謂的過去在 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3520.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3520.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3548.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3554.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 我們謝謝林月琴委員進行的質詢接下來我們請陳昭芝委員進行質詢好 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3564.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3581.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
對於開放印度籍移工的這個議題,在選前有引起蠻大的爭議,甚至有公民團體他們舉辦了遊行,那部長您記得您當時做了什麼回應嗎?報告委員,我那時候做了兩個回應,因為那時候是說第一個說我們已經簽署,那我說我們還沒有簽,我們正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3584.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3607.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
下簽了齁第二個就是說他說引進10萬名印度移工那我們說絕對沒有要引進10萬名移工的這件事情就現在部長因為當時您是說引進印度移工是假訊息10萬名我說10萬名印度移工這個是假訊息但是在那你能確定確保在台灣有七八十萬移工那現在增加了一個來源國你能確保永遠是 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3608.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3635.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
是不增加、不會增加到10萬名的移工嗎?這個能確保嗎?我覺得是有點在文字上的一個部分否定的做法。不是,報告委員,當下,他當下,就是,這是很重要,因為讓國人,就是這個印象讓國人是非常深刻,因為他就講說我引進10萬名印度移工,那這個部分不是,對,我是針對10萬,如果剛剛委員看一下,我,如果那時候有注意喔,我全部的我們的發言都很清楚, |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3636.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3640.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我想請教就是說哪些項目或是人數什麼時候會讓我們了解這些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3665.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3692.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那個報告委員我們的開放的行業跟人數會在後續的還在研議嗎?不是,後續我們要跟更多開工作層級的會議那個就會實體討論我想我們國內自己有備案嘛我想請問防務在不在開放的項目裡目前沒有沒有的話那為什麼這個文國財部長去年10月他說已有初步方案跟勞動部討論屢數月將開放外籍移工沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3694.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3708.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個交通部長也這樣子說了這個報告委員我們現在國內的服務但是沒有排除對不對沒有排除這件事那個報告委員這是兩個命題第一個我們服務業目前還不是我們移工的開放的行業 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3710.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3727.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
但是目前國內的旅宿業者有要爭取移工開放但是我們目前還沒有定案還在討論當中我想要請你了解這個飯店從業人員國內失業是非常的嚴重那飯店業者他收費也蠻高的住宿費就是說如果他不用提高待遇那優先聘付本來當然這個會引起從業人員飯店從業人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3730.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3754.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
但是我跟委員報告我現在的印度新增來源國我沒有說因為新增印度我就開放服務這個沒有了解現在你還沒有規劃這個防務的部分沒有沒有沒有好謝謝然後我想跟部長談一個這個移工的執聘制跟這個仲介制這個請問部長鼓勵僱主不需要透過仲介直接聘僱移工是不是勞動部的既有政策既定政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3755.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3781.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
是,我們其實就是鼓勵,我們有一個多,有一個職聘的機制在1997年就成立這個,就是職聘這個中心嘛但是就是說,那為什麼職聘的比例,我們現在有的數字是直直落曾經到10%,現在不到1%如果這是職聘是一個我們的既定政策,為什麼這個報告委員,這個比率的降勢,因為以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3782.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3789.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
一共三年到期到出國我知道你們是以這個52條修正對修正以後關聯性這麼大嗎?有啊因為他要回去再進來你們認為關聯性就在這個修法的地方嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3799.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3826.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那就下一張那2018年我知道因為這個關係你們就採測了總共8個採測的7個職聘中心只是因為台北是一個據點但是但是你看2023年去年又說業務這個民眾的變多這個業務的民眾變多又需要更大的空間我想了解到底職聘的部分是需求增加還是在下降需求有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3827.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3855.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
但是因為大家都透過網路申請,實體來申請的比較少,所以才會...大家都透過網路申請嘛,以坑務來說,很多家庭他都是中年以上,中長年使用,他們對於要使用電腦操作,要這個讀卡機...報告委員,他們大部分都委託仲介啦,仲介的話他們就是會...不好意思,現在我可不可以請教在場的這個官員,家裡有聘僱移工的,可以麻煩舉一下手嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3856.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3861.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
都沒有嗎?家裡有沒有聘僱這個移工?都沒有需求,長輩都沒有需求嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3864.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3891.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
真的都沒有嗎我還是要聚焦在這個職聘跟仲介的部分請大家下一張部長您知道職聘的程序有多麼繁複多麼惹民怨嗎至少經過包括80量表也不是看一次病有一次看一次科別就有了他至少有超過這個10個步驟然後去要七處的地方處處入所以事實上這個職聘程序反而事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3891.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3906.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
是變相的如果是既定政策是變相的是反職聘而且是在圖利這個仲介我們看到的是這樣子而且職聘中心目前他的角色他只有收件跟送件你覺得這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3909.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3930.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
包委細節的默契署長可以說明那個我們的服務不是只有收件送件沒有是很多人放棄這個有些時候執聘執聘可以選前阿為什麼很多人還放棄呢因為這個就是阻礙執聘的程序繁瑣非常的繁瑣包括我們家也經歷長輩的這個需求要執聘是非常的繁瑣我們會盡量讓程序來簡化會檢討包委你這邊所列的我都會請 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3936.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3936.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3955.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3976.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
移工的職聘目前為止我知道泰國跟菲律賓做得比較順利但是印尼跟越南的成效很差那根據這個職聘中心主任陳昌邦說都是對方的問題印尼政府說是家庭監護公司單獨進入家庭所以需要來管理那越南的說法是勞工本身習慣要付仲介費用來辦理部長你覺得這個說法你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3977.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3997.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
報告委員,韓國是這樣,他們一開始的時候他們就採持聘制度,所以他當初在那邊,對,他們一開始會這樣,但我們那時候不是啦,所以再來就是說您剛剛講的,像印尼來講,印尼他是法律規定,他們的家庭他不能透過職聘,但是印尼跟韓國可以啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3999.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4022.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
就是說印尼跟韓國之間他們也是直接聘僱的委員,廠工可以,製造業的廠工可以但家庭看護工印尼是不能用職聘的那是他的法令規定我們也希望能夠用職聘但是移工到韓國去做他們是政府職聘製作當中而且移工還需要接受韓語能力的考試很多的主動權是在政府這一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4023.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4043.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那這個越南的話他們甚至有勞務協議超過30年那而且也是國跟國這個職聘這樣的方式所以覺得部長覺得這樣職聘的這個參考可不可行我們可以借盡其他國家的經驗我們有多參考而且跟委員報告我們每年的就是說我們雙方的雙邊的會議我們都期待能夠因為是來源國比較消極啦因為你知道移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4051.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4055.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
有很多移工團體他倡議這個國對國的這個職聘因為他之前來之前這個要所謂的介紹費人頭費大概5到20萬來臺灣之後這個仲介公司到6萬另外這個所謂的取消滿三年出國的規定之後部長資報裡面有所謂的買工費違法的買工費2到9萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4069.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4082.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
就是抓不勝抓那這個勞動部的裁罰金額跟不法收益其實是九牛一毛就算被撤照了還是找其他人再開所以我的意思是說如果能夠減少仲介的層層剝削今天這張時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4086.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4103.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
今天就是說這個是新的來源國全新的來源國那我們是不是可以藉此來釋放政府對政府國對國的一個執聘制度因為可以從這裡開始那將政府來當仲介的話移工減少剝削僱主也安心啊因為是政府來做這件事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4104.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4120.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
部長覺得這件事可不可行可不可以去參考報告委員我們現在要準備跟印度來後續的工作成績裡面就會包含這個那我們來做吧韓國都可以做了我覺得做了30年我意思是說因為剛開始談如果我們要採這個制度會比較好談 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4121.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4121.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4149.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4155.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
主席各位官員還有委員同事們大家早安我也想請部長你好好請部長陳委員好我們知道說幫我放一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4166.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4187.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個MOU是外交部去簽署的那是你來執行嗎但昨天外交部給我們的報告就這樣一頁字非常大相信很遠的地方都看得到這個字不到一頁啦所以我想還是請問部長好了這個MOU我們跟印度簽署我們有一些利益關係嗎利益互換嗎利益互換 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4190.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4195.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們可以看到說這兩件事不知道您覺得是否有關聯因為我們2023年在孟買設了一個經濟文化辦事處2024年就簽署了MOU這兩件事有沒有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4214.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4232.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
委員應該是沒關係因為其實我們跟印度之間的勞務合作是比較後面的我記得好像經濟啦包括農業什麼他們都已經在之前他們都有簽署MOU有合作關係我們是勞務的部分是在2020的年底那時候才開始沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4234.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4254.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因為之前我們曾經有前例告訴我們國人說只要我們可以進口萊豬、萊牛我們入CPTPP就有優勢結果我們後來也沒有入所以我們很希望說這次的簽署是一個很對等而且很互惠的關係我也想請問部長說請問您認為MOU它是一個協定還是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4260.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4263.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
根據我們的條約締結法民國104年剛剛您所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4287.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4287.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
條約還是一個協定? |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4305.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4309.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以如果您覺得內容沒有涉及這麼多國防外交財政經濟等等怎麼今天這麼多人出現在同一個場合 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4323.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4338.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們還是很希望其實我們上一次簽的MOU是20年前20年前這邊有一張陳菊簽署的MOU這已經是20年前了所以我們104年為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4341.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4366.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們跟國際之間有更好的更保障國人的權益有了條約締結法我也很希望勞動部未來我們可以就這些談判的方針啊爭議啊等等的要適度的跟立法院報告向立法院相關委會說明之後送到立法院我們也會嚴加的審視那剛剛已經有很多委員提到了我也想知道說我們現在外籍的失聯移工部長您認為是變多還是變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4370.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4380.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
呃在111年的時候是特別人數特別增加特別多吼有剛剛講到疫情對然後隨著我們因為邊境的管制已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4381.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4381.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
1111112你說曲緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4413.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4418.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這個數字難以置信欸這是兩個小巨蛋的人數欸兩個大巨蛋的人數欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4420.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4440.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那個報告委員我講的趨緩我是講那個失聯率因為會跟那個進來的人數有關本來是3萬後來是6千所以是趨緩不是報告委員像100你看109、110、111這個都是剛好疫情的時候所以那個人數都是增加尤其到111年你看增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4443.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4462.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
其實我們那一年是增加了4萬億啦要看那個失聯率失聯率就是說總數跟失聯的人數這樣去比會比較比較客觀一點不能單看人數部長您覺得最高比例失聯的是哪一類的移工就是111年最高的就是5.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4464.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4465.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
事實上他是上升不是減少嗎對吧他是上升只是趨緩他是上升結論還是上升委員不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4473.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4495.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
去年才趨緩112才趨緩我是看那個失聯率你看人數當然好像覺得增加但是其實你要看那個112例我們的那個進來的人數是增加的我也分享一下我臨床上實際看到大家知道我過去是長期在醫院執業所以我們會有移工他這些沒有身份的人這好幾萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4497.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4498.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4521.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4523.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這也是我們國家形象很嚴重的一環嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4540.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4563.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以報告委員我們也針對要如何來降低這個失聯率我們也在努力所以包括說我們的國安團隊像去年就查獲了兩萬七千人所以你為了改善他們工作環境包括未來我們也會針對比如說因為他們移工大概進來都透過仲介那當地的仲介如果他失聯率高我們會停權 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4564.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4581.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那未來我們也會加重僱用這10年的移工的僱主還有仲介剛剛有講到說為了改善移工的環境所以執聘中心陳肇智委員也有質詢執聘中心是你們一個很重點的指標對嗎執聘中心可以幫助到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4583.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4592.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我這邊有一本112年移工管理及運用調查報告我從108年一直讀到112年部長你有看過這個移工管理及運用調查報告嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4604.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4619.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
剛講到說執聘中心完全沒有落實大家可以看到說我們從108到110年到111年僱主知道執聘中心的比例都沒有進步都沒有增長大家根本不知道這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4621.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4639.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這個報告委員我們都有在宣導你有在宣導但是好像沒笑但是這個就是因為聽大眾他是不是有看但是我要跟委員說明因為其實我們現在移工的引進雇主他第一個他可以自行招聘他可以透過中介他也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4639.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4640.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是透過我們職聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4670.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4694.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這個你自己可以接受這樣子的問卷嗎知道但不清楚有哪些措施我知道我在新聞上有看過蘇丹紅但我不知道蘇丹紅是什麼這樣也把它歸成知道然後突然從50%變成72%結果你扣掉知道但不清楚有哪些措施根本只剩30%雇主知道完全是在下降根本沒有宣導啊所以剛剛有講到說執聘中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4696.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4717.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們很想宣傳執聘中心結果大家看執聘中心的比例真的有用到執聘中心的比例是2018年1.6%2023年1.7%然後每年我們是4000多萬的預算花在執聘中心欸如果我在裡面上班我可能都覺得很沒有成就感進來這麼多人結果真的利用我的服務的人是1.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4720.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4734.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4734.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4758.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個就是讓聘僱移工多一個選擇就僱主多一個選擇這個選擇沒有競爭當然這個會牽涉到就像我剛剛講的比如說能夠透過職聘有些是沒有辦法像印尼的就沒辦法但是我跟你說我們是要努力再來把它讓大家都知道然後願意來使用這個是我們要來做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4759.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4768.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
當然已經努力很多年了嘛那最後提一個很簡單的建議啦剛剛陳昭智委員有講到說申辦文件複雜他剛剛夯不啷啷列出十幾項你看認為申辦文件複雜的從110年45%到112年42%改變文件的申辦是一個應該三年內應該做得到的事情這點我們也希望未來我們有一個書面報告來呈現我們應該要怎麼改善這個整個職聘中心不然就乾脆不要成立嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4788.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4800.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 我們謝謝陳金輝委員的一個質詢接下來我們請圖全級委員進行質詢好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4818.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4821.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長好 有請部長圖仁好好 部長我請問一下針對我們這個印度移工的這個政策其實一直以來從大家知道以後就一直紛紛擾擾那我們勞動部也針對印度這些說了很多的事情但是我們注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4846.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4860.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
有很多沒有說的有幾個重點像印度他有多達20幾幾種的官方語言而且他現在印度教跟慕林斯這個衝突也是日益升高那而且針對我們國際數據網站statist在2022年他就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4865.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4889.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
對印度就有發生過3萬多起的性侵的事件而且重點他也指出這個受害者他常在警局撤銷告訴撤銷的被迫撤銷的比例非常非常的高表示他們這個常常都受到很多社會上壓力、屈服、妥協變成這些受害婦女 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4890.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4918.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
警局以後反而是撤銷他的告訴那而且這個世界銀行性別統計的資料庫也顯示15歲到49歲印度的女性中有6%就遭受過這個性暴力的對待那我請問一下你不斷在我們的大眾對於印度移工我們部長一直有說我們針對這個引進有歧視的心理甚至有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4919.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4934.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
認知作戰那我請問這STATIST還有世界銀行他也在歧視我們印度人嗎他也在做認知作戰嗎難道他的報導跟分析也是對岸的阻撓的行為嗎那請部長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4935.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4963.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
報告委員因為你剛剛所講的這些大概就是印度他國內的一個狀況但是我們現在所瞭解的是印度在1800萬在海外的移工的的一個他們工作狀況他其實是OK的包括說他的素質他的工作能力其實他在1800萬戶戶在世界各國他的工作能力是受大家肯定的犯罪率也是比起 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4963.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4980.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
請勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4981.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4994.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個沒有犯罪紀錄的一個證明一定要提出所以就是說就是我們所謂的良民證我們要確保他沒有治安的疑慮我請問一下我的重點是說他針對這個國際數據網站等等他所報導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4997.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5010.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
難道他們也是在做認知戰嗎我沒有說他做認知戰我剛剛是跟委員說您說的這是他可能他就他國內的一個情形做說明但是我移工要引進我會有一些條件就是說你來第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5012.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5033.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
對治安不能有影響,不能影響我的社會。好,沒關係,所以這些數據你也是承認也是同意的嘛,對不對,針對這些數據。這個如果是國際的數據,當然那評比那個我們必須就是尊重他的一個說明。好,所以重點。但是我是說,我要說明就是說,我們瞭解這些狀況,但是我移工的引進我一定要確保, |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5034.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5052.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我的重點是說所以這些數據跟對岸阻撓其實是沒有關係的嘛這些數據跟對岸認知戰是沒有關係的嘛對不對報告委員我們講的那是說當初去年大概11月的時候說我們要引進10萬名印度移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5053.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5067.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這件事情是假訊息啊好沒關係我現在重點是說我希望我們勞動部在做這些處理事情不要很多事情沒有辦法處理沒有辦法交代都無限上剛推到老共的身上我們針對部長我覺得你們講話也要負責不要說什麼事情都推到說對岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5073.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5082.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
公開有阻撓那我請問一下你們說你在在接受採訪的時候說有公開阻撓我想請問一下那他是怎麼阻撓你可以告訴我們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5086.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5114.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
因為你在網路接受的時候你有講那而且我們發文去詢問的時候其實喔我們櫃部喔真的也說不出個所以然我們有發文去喔因為你說有阻撓然後我們也發文去櫃部他也說不出個所以然所以我說現在是不是勞動部的同仁在打臉我們的勞動部長還是我們的勞動部長公然說謊你可以說明一下嗎其實這些事情很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5116.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5131.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
他的主腦有很多方式但是我要講像去年那一年底那件事情所謂認知這是有經過國安單位的一個瞭解之後認為有這麼一回事沒有部長我覺得你講的真的都很不明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5135.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5161.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
主腦有它各種方式啦,真的要...好沒關係,所以你講的主腦到現在其實還是說不出一些任何具體的主腦,沒關係那我請問一下,那針對印度移工入境可能負面的影響那當然我們政府有這個責任要做完整的評估來說服大眾那我請問一下,在整個引進的過程中,我們勞動部有做研究評估嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5163.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5183.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們有評估過啊我們勞動部自己有做評估嗎?勞動部有做嗎?我們自己內部有評估啊你有評估報告嗎?評估的資訊啦你有評估報告有會議紀錄嗎?那不是會議紀錄啦所以提不出任何評估報告嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5185.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5211.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們的資訊的收集之後所以你一說勞動部有做就對了我們有做評估啦那我請問一下那你在網路節目說是外交部在幫勞動部做評估是不是你是不是這樣講協助協助收取資料所以你說外交部是協助我們任何移工來源國當初在開放的時候都是要透過那到底是勞動部做還是外交部做 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5212.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5225.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
都有都有幫忙都有做都有協助勞動部有做外交部也有做就是我們要引進移工的這個心得人有一定要做一些評估啊所以你但是你還是提不出任何證據任何會議記錄說有做評估嗎對不對你們你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5229.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5245.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
沒有任何會議紀錄也提不出任何報告只是你自己說有嘛那重點你在網路節目講的時候你是說請外交部喔今天外交部有來我請外交部證實一下我們勞動部是不是有請你們提供資訊來做這個評估外交部有提供資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5252.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5269.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
委員好這個案子主政單位是勞動部我們外交部在這個案子事實上是採取一個協助的立場我們外管就是我們駐印度代表處有協助相關的資訊這些相關的資訊我們應勞動部的要求我們也都有轉給勞動部的單位請問一下你提供給他的資料是機密嗎我們提供的資料這些都是機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5281.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5283.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
請問不能提供給立委知情,那勞動部可以對外公開說嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5300.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5301.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5315.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5340.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
因為我們覺得真的很納悶我沒有想到連這個外交引進也都列入機密 講兩點就像黑箱一樣 我不知道為什麼現在我們民進黨政府疫苗也要黑箱軍購也要黑箱 連這個外勞引進都列入機密也要黑箱難道這個到時候也要封存30年嗎報告委員 這個我們都依照這個法律 相關的法規在進行 如同我剛剛講的一句 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5341.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5370.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
文書處理手冊還有國家機密保護法的相關規定反正這些機密文件的話我們沒有辦法直接提供給委員除非大院有做成相關的局面再來進行內部的評估部長我們部長我再請問一下我們勞動部裡面是不是有跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組那這個是不是針對擬定外勞政策針對勞資政三方最重要平台由他引進都要由他來做評估對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5371.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5382.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那我請問一下勞動部針對這部分是哪一個單位在做評估剛剛部長說有做評估是誰在做評估那個剛剛委員報告是因為在MOU在整個掐簽過程當中不是我問你誰在做評估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5401.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5413.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們現在是行政的內部要透過相關的資訊的蒐集之後所以你說跨國勞動力政策協商小組是不是在做這個工作的?沒有那這個單位還有功能嗎?有 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5415.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5434.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
還有功能那我說實在我請問一下部長你們說有討論可是你真的提不出一些具體的而且到底有哪個單位在做而且這個跨國勞動力政策協商小組你還好你說他沒有做三年六次的會議針對這印度移工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5435.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5457.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
資質未提從頭到尾都沒有討論過所以我希望我們這個我們這個勞動部在這之前希望一定要說服大眾要做一個完整的評估然後針對我們這些問題你像之前你自己在講你在網路節目講外交部正在幫勞動部停工你自己去看你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5458.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5483.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
網路政論節目講的然後你說這些印勞都來自東北的省份生活習慣跟我們相近而且多數是基督徒我真的很想知道你這些訊息到底是哪裡來的你真的有需要說清楚講明白難怪我們民間常常謠言說說這個外勞的引進是綠營金主想要做這個外勞的生意而且我不希望把我們這些民間的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5485.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5499.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
都無限上綱都推到對岸的認知戰阿共的陰謀你沒有辦法交代的事情就是阿共的陰謀對岸的認知戰所以我今天等一下會有再臨時提案針對我們今天這個印度移工外勞引進我們針對希望我們縣市政府一定要舉辦說明會還有盤整我們現有的同意功能還有針對我們現有社會影響評估勞動市場評估還有政策可行性評估你們一定要提出做一個完整的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5514.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5541.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
到時候也要請我們勞資政學還有仲介代表來召開這個公聽會那還有針對我們現在逃逸外勞的現象你們一直沒有提出一個完善的改善的方式我們希望你能夠提出一個階段性的完善改善方式我們再來提這個印度移工的問題不然這個問題你再引進絕對造成我們台灣社會民眾恆大的疑慮在這邊希望我們部長勞動部能夠幫忙謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5544.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5548.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好,我們謝謝圖權級委員進行的質詢。接下來我們請邱政軍委員進行質詢。好,我們一樣有請我們的許部長。好,有請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5576.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5587.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
剛剛我們圖委員的議題就是我們在簽印度移工的MOU之前我們剛剛說到有做完整的評估報告嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5596.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5617.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我剛剛聽到外交部說這個是機密我覺得很奇怪我再請問一下根據過去的經驗我們開放蒙古移工的時候勞動部都有完整的評估作業也有公開的報告為什麼印度的不用? |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5619.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5639.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那個應該是已經完成以後才...完成以後我們會對外整個...對,因為現在是...那個是之前嗎?以前蒙古的時候是...是之後才報嗎?看到了可能是已經整個完成,完成之後那會有一個對外的...還是因為我們這個新南向政策,所以就可以開後門? |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5640.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5641.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
請外交部許副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5664.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5692.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
您剛剛說這個報告是機密不能公開那我再問你是不是有特殊的這個外交任務也沒有特殊的外交任務一般來講因為我們外交部使用是電報格式那這些公文的話如果說只要掛上密的話我們公務人員必須要依照相關法規來辦理我認為就是開放外籍勞工已經是行之有年的一個政策過去勞動部會進行這個完整的評估作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5693.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5717.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
然後公開那這一次我們大搞神秘反而引起這個外界的各種猜測造成政策的這個阻力我們我想我們應該要檢討改進如果說你們的我這樣講如果說你們交給勞動部是機密那我希望勞動部這邊是不是也可以公開盡早來公開來給我們國人一個交代完整的一個說明我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5718.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5747.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個都沒有我覺得政策盡量能夠公開透明可以公開的我們一定會公開啦因為有些當初是他們因為收集的資訊按照他們的內參的他們有他們的規範我們尊重但是要提供過來的東西我們會自己看了之後那什麼時候可以公佈?我們一方告委我們後續喔我是覺得應該你是要送那個將MOU送行政院之前公佈還是之後再來公佈?被查後 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5748.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5770.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以被查後才公佈?那我們委員都沒有辦法去了解這個真正的狀況?被查以後我們就會送立法院啊,送立法院查照啊。好,那你盡快啦。那目前我們大家知道的,我們印度開放移工的行業跟人數由台灣決定,由印度那邊來訓練是嗎?對。還有其他內容嗎?你說那個MOU啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5777.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5803.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
對,就是我們的開放的行業跟人數行業跟人數是我們這邊決定的那開放程序呢?行業數額?現在還沒有,還沒有語言能力、專長、資格等等這個後續都會談就是我們MOU完成這個手續之後我們接下來就是要開工作層級會議然後就是包括您剛委員講的行業、人數、語言條件等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5804.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5832.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那個我們就會在工作成績會議裡面去做討論好瞭解那您盡快我希望我們部長這邊盡快到時候給我們盡快讓我們知道訊息好不好那當然剛剛還有提到一個就我們移工造成治安的問題我們當然不是歧視只是說當然我們也要保護我們國人的一個治安的國家的治安那當然但是我想部長對這個部分有什麼看法報告委員我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5833.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5859.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
印度移工未來要進來跟其他現在已經開放移工一樣他的國家必須出具沒有犯罪的這個證明也就是我們這邊的陽明證就是說他必須是素質好的沒有犯罪紀錄的移工這樣子啦因為現在大家都滿關心這個議題我希望部長我建議是不是我們制定一個公開還有公布篩選的一個機制還有限制讓國人消除這個疑慮可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5861.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5882.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個工作會議我們來會設定那個資格條件我們會在工作層級會議跟印方這邊來做協商好那我們剛剛也有提到就是這個非法黑工的問題那我們在這個112年7月27號看到的這個新聞稿探討我們的八萬兩千 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5884.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5884.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
為什麼越來越多勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5909.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5930.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
跟委員報告 監察院因為他針對這個失聯有做了一些 比如說他裡面特別提到包含因為移工他現在因為有一些受到一些經濟誘因所以這個部分像我們在前年我們就調整家事移工的薪資那另外就是說針對一些非法的包含媒介跟僱主可能現行罰則太輕造成有這樣的一個非法的動機 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5931.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5954.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那這個部分我們已經提案到這個選擇救護法的修正案所以當初的這個所有的這個我們其實都有在做一個處理好那我這樣做結論我想我希望你們這個監察院的這個實相改善的建議你們要落實那這次開放這個引進印度移工作業那勞動部評估作業我個人認為這個還不是很完整也沒有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5954.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5972.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那社會溝通及配套措施好像有點不足,那引發社會的疑慮。那麼當然我們希望勞動部這邊能夠持續改善加強保障本國勞工並減少文化不同造成的一個誤解,好不好?那第二個我再請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5974.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5986.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們蔡總統任內一直沒有推動我們勞保年金的一個改革截至去年年底勞保基金規模只剩下8729億那經過勞保局的精算勞保基金在2028年就會破產2031年整體負債將會超過1.15兆目前政府對於千萬名勞工已產生潛藏的負債已經高達11兆3700億 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6004.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6015.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那我們2039年起每年支出將會高達1兆元以上那我想我們勞動部對這個有沒有一個具體的一個改革的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6016.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6045.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
報告委員基本上這個勞保是政府辦的社會保險政府也一定會付起這個不是可是你現在如果不改革你未來你不可能每年撥一兆那我們現在跟委員報告我們因為目前來講在2020開始我們先撥補是第一步但是因為後續的改革因為牽涉到一千萬的勞工那每個勞工的類型都不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6045.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6049.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
目前在持續跟這些各界溝通那包括說收集意見等等那因為這個推動還是有一個一定的社會共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6067.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6082.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這樣子啦,部長,因為這個事情牽扯到就像你講的,非常廣大的一個勞工的權益那我也希望說,如果您在520之後有繼續留任那我希望您要勇敢來推動這個年金的改革,我當然知道困難非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6083.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6107.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
另外外界我們也期盼提高基金投資的收益到7到10%那我們去年呢是收益是1100億那當然成立以來我們的整體的收益只有4.5%所以這個比例還是蠻低的那當然也希望大家政府一定要謹慎來操作讓這個風險降低投資效益提高那當然剛剛講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6109.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6110.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
接下來我們請王振旭委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6143.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6155.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
謝謝主席有請勞動部許部長整席今天的質詢的內容有部分是關於衛福部的業務所以也請衛福部的代表黃偉好 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6166.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6181.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
首先關於本次與印度簽署開放移工的MOU本席有兩個面向的建議對內本席建議我們勞動部必須要積極溝通才能夠凝聚國內的共識對外 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6183.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6201.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
本席也建議我們應該透過這一次的契機來持續推動與印度合作的這個相關的一些內容那我們這邊所提到的官方合作不只勞動部也希望會包括其他的行政機關是 謝謝委員我們會遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6201.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6221.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好,那我們也知道勞動部應該要持續的針對各方的代表來妥善的溝通來化解疑慮來凝聚共識這個前面好幾位委員也都有提到相關的政策那當然我們也知道不同的立場一定會有不同的看法跟考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6221.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6250.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以本期建議勞動部應該持續的邀請包括所有的工商團體勞動團體等各方的代表來妥善的溝通讓這個社會的共識可以凝聚的更為完整讓這一項經過政府完整的評估而且是符合我們國際經濟發展的需求的政策能夠順利的執行這是非常期待的部分那我們所期許的各方面的這些推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6251.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6265.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
不只是在這個勞工的移入的同時其實醫療領域也是我們很期待的部分我們知道目前基於國際跟區域情勢的變化如果能夠簽署在MOU這類雙邊合作的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6266.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6282.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
能夠有相關的這些帶動的話應該對於臺灣的整理發展會更佔有優勢那請教部長我們這次簽署MOU剛剛提到說沒有其他的利益的問題那我們是不是有連動的去促進其他層面的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6284.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6309.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
其他部位其實他們早就有各項議題的合作我們這邊是屬於勞務所以其實台印之間的合作面向其實是越來越多但是就是各自的部會自己去做一些跟印方這邊做協商討論是是 其實以醫療領域為例因為我們知道印度他們對健康的照護也是非常的激情醫藥的部分我記得醫藥農業 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6311.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6338.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
都已經走在前面了是那在疫情最緊張的時候我們對於這位KK阿加瓦這位前西貿理事長的過世真的是表達對他的敬意因為他為了要率先防疫所以也不幸感染而死亡這部分我們覺得非常惋惜那我們期待說未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6339.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6356.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
在做醫療的部分簽署MOU的同時有沒有機會針對醫療的領域也有機會透過這些合作方式持續來執行那當然這個會是我們其他需要再持續努力的目標不知道衛福這邊有沒有其他的一些思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6358.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6374.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
目前部裡面這邊其實有關醫療的部分也都持續有這些包括新南向的一些政策那也都在持續在推動中是好謝謝那我們也知道其實移工的實在風險是很高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6375.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6390.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那實現風險會上升的原因基本上就是因為工作類別造成的那我們很謝謝這些移工們到台灣來協助整個台灣的這些各方面的進步那我們也看到其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6391.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6414.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對於這個移工造成的影響是蠻明顯的從108年到112年這5年來已經有1000件以上的這些不管是失能或者是死亡的給付那請問我們最近對於這些移工造成的失能跟給付的部分我們看到的是案件那有沒有金額上的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6415.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6445.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
金額這個部分我再給委員好不好那個金額部分我請業務單位整理以後再送給委員辦公室那就麻煩部長因為我們知道如果我們能夠有效的去控制管控這個失能或者是死亡幾戶的話那對於不管是對於他們的保護或是對我們整體的經濟在費用的處理也應該會有相關的影響那我們在強化這個職案的部分不知道現在勞動部有加強了哪一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6446.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6468.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們其實對移工的這些職安委的宣導跟教育訓練都持續在進行那也會針對說高危險的高風險的一些行業像營造營造這方面我們也都會去列為我們的重點那也會特別加強移工在 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6470.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6487.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
製造、就是這些營造的高風險等行業的一些它的風險管理自己的風險的危害的意識還有應該要配備的相關的這些防護措施等等我們都有計劃在做一些推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6487.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6510.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好 那就馬上部長繼續加強那移工安全的下游的部分就是醫療權益就是我們這些移工的醫療權益那其實目前跨部會的整合既有的醫療權益當然我們期待的就是能夠保障他們在當他身體有違和的時候能夠提供好的一個醫療處置那部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6514.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6520.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有沒有了解新南向健康服務中心相關的資源的配置?那如何能夠有效的來連結這些資源?這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6528.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6554.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
包委這個部分我可能還不是那麼清楚我在了解以後是當然是不只是未來的印度籍的移工我們也期待假設現在已經在臺灣的這些移工也都能夠讓他們在就醫的過程裡面得到相關的一些好的連結因為我們至少有40家以上的友善醫院其實有提供這方面的服務模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6555.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6574.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
是國內的醫院體系是嗎?是我請業務單位了解以後我覺得這是很好的一個大家可以合作的政策好那就再麻煩勞動部還有跟衛福部這邊有更多相關的這個服務面向的連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6576.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6604.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那我們再看其實除了這個部分以外很多很多的移工在就醫是有一些困境這個困境很有可能就是包括四大項因為他不熟悉我們的醫療體制他可能有語言上的隔閡他有怕擔心會受到歧視那有時候是因為工作的性質不容易請假所以我們也曾經去查過目前每位勞工平均一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6606.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6607.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這次我們希望能夠持續來加強的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6635.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6635.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好,那我們看這個,所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6638.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6666.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
主席OK多兩分鐘那大加一計畫基本上是我們最近透過加一制度希望能夠幫助到臺灣尤其是慢性病的部分在事實上很多高科技、新科技是可以進來如果我們未來移工有這個需要也期待有這樣的計畫能夠協助他們這個可能還是要跨部會的這個結合能夠讓這個落實度會更好那我們再往下看最後的部分其實大家都很關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6667.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6681.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
很關心這些失聯移工人數也多了那他們的就醫造成的袋帳怎麼辦那醫院長期來墊付就變成每一家醫院的負擔尤其很多都是屬於地區醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6682.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6706.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那地區醫院它本身可能這樣的風險就已經比較高那如果是在地區醫院是私人醫院處理好以後或者是處理他們覺得無法承擔就把它轉到公立醫院那就變成公立醫院另外一項負擔所以這部分不知道未來如何能夠來協助加強因為我們知道目前是有海外工作基金等等的部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6707.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6726.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
針對於如何能夠解決這些失聯移工醫療費用的代帳請問我們目前是不是有任何移工已經有成立的基金那如果跟印度簽署MOU這個議題能不能夠也把他納為在簽署MOU當中的一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6728.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6745.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
謝謝委員：我們會來納入討論的項目之一那這個海外工作基金到目前為止因為來源國都比較消極不願意配合不過未來我們會就是外國的連帶仲介的連帶保證責任這部分我們會來規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6748.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6764.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
好,我覺得用這個可能會更能夠有效的去解決這個問題好,我們希望能夠盡快的成立齁那最後我們可以看到的就是目前齁,這些店鋪的部分我們看到就業安定基金指含瓜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6766.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6784.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
暫時會、旅費所以我們很期待就業服務法如果能夠把這個醫藥費也能夠納為他要墊付的這個項目的話那至少至少在這個醫療院所協助這些移工做醫療照顧的時候的費用是不應該被排除的齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6786.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6803.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個部分其實我們在行政院有討論過大家是認為這是不符合救安基金的使用目的因為這個還是屬於個人債務所以我們其實就是剛剛講的在跟萊恩國這邊再做一些溝通協商另外就是用這個科與仲介連帶保證的機制來讓這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6807.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6830.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
看能不能有效的解決好,那就麻煩看如何能夠協助我們醫院來解決這個待帳的問題再麻煩相關部會繼續幫忙,謝謝好,謝謝王振旭委員的質詢等一下廖偉祥委員質詢結束後休息5分鐘那我們現在請廖偉祥委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6839.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6842.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席好 有請部長好 請部長廖元豪許部長你好不好意思稍等我一下好不好我們等這個PowerPoint把它弄出來好 OK好 我想要請教我們的許部長你知不知道你是現在就任至今已經2200天了是我們這個史上任期最長的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6869.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6882.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
恭喜你所以我想要請問你回顧這2000多天的日子你覺得在你的任內勞動部最急切還需要加把勁的業務有哪一些你可不可以給我舉例三項我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6888.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6906.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
譬如說勞保年金的這些問題財務問題的解決我想這是大家所關注的那第二個就是像目前這個大家對移工失聯的問題希望能夠有效的能夠解決我覺得這也是重大的議題之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6907.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6930.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
第三個我想在薪資方面能夠持續來提升那我覺得這個部分勞動部因為有這個針對我們邊境弱勢勞工我們有這個最低工資法也通過了那相信未來透過這樣新的法律的一個機制然後能夠讓邊境勞工的照顧更周全是謝謝部長那我想要請問你會不會繼續督軍在520之後繼續負起責任來往前推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6935.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6945.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
報告委員我齁目前就是把我目前的工作做好希望在520之後能夠順利交給新任的部長所以你就有覺得不想要再續任了 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6947.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6965.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我覺得應該可以讓更多長才來發揮更多長才來發揮那如果部長沒有要繼續擔任部長的話我們祝福你希望你可以轉職成功那也希望在你任內你很成功的就是推動你的這個中高齡就業服務的機制你會不會使用這個機制去找你新的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6968.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6996.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我覺得這個也是一個很好的不過我本身有專業還好啦所以你比較特別那請問所以你本身有專業還好那請問你會因為也有在外傳喔這個其實如果要跨業喔我如果不想回到我專業跨業我會來來善用這個你會來善用這個對不對那你會除了不要用中高齡我覺得我是壯士代很好我也喜歡壯士代喔那請問我們這個壯士代的部長喔你會考慮投入選舉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6998.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7008.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
目前沒有這個規劃沒有這個規劃我剛剛委員我把我現在的工作做好我印象就是這樣好因為有傳聞是這樣那沒關係我們今天趕快進入到正題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7010.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7033.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
有關於11月16號的時候你們勞動部有貼文上一年的時候你們說假訊息那件事情之外有一句話很特別叫做勞動部深知目前社會對於印度開放移工來源還是有疑慮所以你們說那個時候尚未簽署也在草擬之中可是過了短短大概三個月的時間你們就簽署了請問部長你覺得有解決這個疑慮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7035.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7063.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
報告委員,其實疑慮的部分我們還是會持...所以請問你覺得有解決疑慮嗎?有一些有理解,可能有一些部分大家還需要我們再多溝通所以還沒有解決,對不對?我不敢說...因為問題一定會...你也有辦法說一定會持續啦有些人理解,有些人不理解那我們就是說不理解的部分我們還是要持續努力那為什麼部長排...你們自己也知道還有不理解的部分要這麼急著簽MOU呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7064.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7087.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
報告委員我們的MOU他是一個架構就是雙方就這個勞務合作一個意向的一個簽署那後面那個實質的是部長我知道剛剛前面有幾位委員也提過那請問你們在做這件事情之前有沒有什麼評估的報告和方案或是評估相關的這個作業流程報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7093.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7120.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
報告委員我們業務單位在齁沒有有他們有做一些資訊的蒐集包括評估都有有做資訊的蒐集那你們有做一個報告嗎報告你們跟委員報告這一次我們跟印度在洽商大概主要的評估資訊是從向外交部還有包含印度台北市是好這些相關字我們把它做我要打斷您喔抱歉我想要打斷您的是說其實你們有你不知道喔部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7121.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7149.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我上網查了一下你們官方的報告裡面有一個106年外勞來源國輸出政策走向及我國因應對策的官方評估對不對有嗎對不對所以你們剛剛是忘記了這件事不是忘記我本來以為以為我本來以為是說所以這是你們的因為我們那好沒關係我直接跳我請問因為你們這段時間新的報告等於沒做嘛最新的一份是這個嘛我網路上查到你們官方有的報告是這份那請問這是決策唯一的決策依據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7151.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7155.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
不是是依據之一好那我們下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7157.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7182.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
裡面有講到,包含你3月4號的新聞有說到印度是一個我們可以用的來源國因為依照目前的政經局勢還有可能印度受到中國大陸的干預比較少然後低於貧窮線的人口數也眾多加上跟菲律賓相同多數人可以用英語溝通而且數理能力程度加所以可以來做考慮的對象請問您是不是認同? |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7184.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7206.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
認同這個報告的這部分?認同嗎?認同對不對?部長請回答認同好但是同一份報告裡面也有專家說也有專家反饋他們認為印度比較不推薦因為他們的家族性常會使一次一大群人一起來而且語言跟文化差異性也較高請問部長你認同嗎?認同不認同? |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7210.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7221.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個就是他們的一個比較的意見嘛他們就是所以你認同這個概念嗎?你認同還是不認同?我是覺得這是專家的報告齁我們尊重啊好我們下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7222.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7236.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好那這裡也有講到這個印度跟臺灣的關係不錯印度的種族很多可能要考慮哪一個種族適合臺灣我想要請問這個部長您覺得是你們有評估過哪一個種族適合臺灣嗎沒有評估有還是沒有評估有評估嗎沒有評估沒有評估對是這個我們其實目前並不是以種族來考慮是來合作其實主要是對於未來他的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7252.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7256.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
建議鎖定印度某些區域引進,如東北方的阿薩姆或周遭的六個省,信仰基督教且英文留理。請問你認同還是不認同? |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7278.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7300.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
副長,你認同?所以你部分有認同,部分不認同這個決議?我就尊重他這個報告,不能說任何人都尊重但是尊重也有認同和不認同嗎?因為我記得你也有提說,你們會優先從那三個部分來引進,對嗎?優先考量這個就是說,當初是說,未來我們會你有優先考量嘛,對不對?優先考量啦,當然就是有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7301.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7324.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好,所以其實你們有這個評估報告可是你們不太確定可是你也是部分的採用那再來對,再來就是這個裡面也有提到印度斯里蘭卡進入到家庭內勞工比較困難在語言溝通上有困難那還有同時應該要教育國人與回教徒及印度教徒的相處方式請問你們有相關的配套或是你們有相關的要執行的方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7326.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7327.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主席再給我2分鐘謝謝好沒關係下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7343.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7362.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以我上面只想要解決要告訴部長的事其實你們也知道社會的疑慮並沒有解除並沒有解除所以你們應該要再努力的這應該是你們要努力的方向因為現在我們在民間有接收到非常多的民眾對於這件事情的確有疑慮我在反映我們民意代表反映疑慮告訴你而且也要提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7363.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7378.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
剛剛你們所有的報告裡面包含種族包含區域等等的其實我要提醒部長要小心不要變成人權笑話因為您昨天也才在印度移工說膚色相近的部分遭到藍綠都共同譴責所以要請部長小心好不好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7379.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7399.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那我們想要討論的事情是為什麼要移工喔常常講的就是缺工要如何解嘛可是我們政府往往一併就一律在思考的都是治標的問題就是只是開放移工好像就可以解決缺工可是治本也沒有做好所以下一頁我們現在遇到很大的問題是我們逃逸的移工數量暴增喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7400.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7400.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
您聽我說齁 其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7425.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7452.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
最近的元素為什麼還暴增主要是3年的疫情我知道你的報告裡面有寫但是我跟委員但是我想要抱歉抱歉部長我們百醫社有比111我知道我都有看到數據我有認真讀你的東西但是你剛剛自己也有講到你有3件很重要的事情要繼續努力的嘛其中一項就是這個嘛所以我要提出來告訴你其實你並沒有做好你要再繼續努力好不好下一頁勞動部會繼續努力對那但是你缺工也沒有解決嘛所以你移工跟缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7453.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7453.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
下頁下頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7484.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7508.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為非法的黑工他收入更優惑所以他就會逃跑包含很多建築工是不是他有他量能不足他還是偷用了這個失聯義工結果失聯義工一天的薪水都比合法義工還要高最後都被洗去當失聯義工對不對這是事實吧這是地氣這個是很接地氣的部分甚至很多農業的部分你們也不敢真的去抓對不對下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7511.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7532.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
譬如說有一些農業的需求因為沒有年輕人所以他必須用移工然後他的淡旺季分配不明顯所以導致很多人就是臨時去當了移工他們也願意雇用移工然後當你們要去稽查的時候還會特別通知在地的里長說要來稽查囉大家當天不要出現這都是在地方上和農業上真正發生的事情你有沒有意識到這樣的狀況部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7534.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7551.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以剛剛委員講的很對啦就是說其實很多是經濟因素所以像我們的那個家庭看護工我們也在把他薪資從一萬七調到兩萬所以我們未來也會針對非法僱用非法仲介這邊我們加重他的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7552.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7552.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7569.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7572.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
希望部長如果您在520之前希望你可以再大破大利的把該做的事情做好解決這個產業結構性的問題可以嗎好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7600.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7602.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好,謝謝兩位想委員的質詢,我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7913.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7919.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好 我們現在開始開會那接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長好 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7933.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7960.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
部長好,其實我在好幾次之前都一直在關心我們這個有關逃逸移工的事情那尤其是在這疫情這兩三年當中這個逃逸的移工更嚴重那我相信部長還有勞動部這邊也有心要去解決這樣的一個問題那當然這個缺工的問題或者是說這個移工的這個來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7962.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7980.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
來源國其實我們也是要多元要不然真的哪一個國家萬一移工不再進來的話其實對我們的產業或者是有關社福的狀況可能會產生很大的問題所以我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7982.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7982.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7999.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8004.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
中研院的博士後研究也有很多的印度籍的研究人員也是在臺灣所以其實我看到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8020.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8048.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
要另外引進這個印度的移工到臺灣來其實我一個方面就是說讓這個移工的來源國能夠更多元那另外就是說印度籍的這些移工也許他們在中學或者是大學他們所受的教育語言大部分都是用英語那跟臺灣這邊對接的話語言方面其實應該也還可以可能這個隔閡可能比較不會那麼大那我想請教就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8049.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8067.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
外界的疑慮我相信部長知道說外界在去年的時候這個消息釋放出來就是說要引進印度籍的移工之後那外界有一些疑慮那你們有針對這些疑慮跟社會做說明或者是溝通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8068.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8087.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
報告委員其實在去年有一些這些假訊息出來之後我們都有對外說明包括有一些歧視的問題比如說犯罪率等等那我們都有對外在說明包括說我們也告訴大家其實印度的移工素質是很好的在目前世界各國有 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8088.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8111.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
有用印度移工的其實都很肯定包括我們現在像我們鄰國像日本他開放比較晚可是他現在已經跟印度簽了他真的包括日本、韓國都在積極搶工包括以色列以色列他現在也是一直在積極要跟這個印度來洽簽這個勞務的相關的合作的契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8112.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8129.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個都是大家對那個印度移工的工作能力素質的肯定所以我們要讓大家瞭解那當然大家有一些疑慮的部分比如說他的犯罪率或其他的可能大家所擔心的部分我們的也有對外說明說其實這個我們要來台灣任何移工現在就是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8130.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8130.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8152.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8178.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
關心的問題那在後續的工作層級會議裡面去做一些討論然後也將來應該是就是一些小規模的引進然後大家成效不錯我們再來擴大那所以也不會有說一次要引進幾萬人的這個移工進來嗎就是說看產業的需求對看產業的需求其實我們現在是這樣我特別要接這個說明就是說其實包括我們現在已經開放了四國 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8179.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8192.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們其實沒有規定說印尼多少人、越南多少人沒有,我們其實就是讓僱主自由去選擇所以我們現在新增了印度也是讓四個國家多增加一個讓這個僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8194.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8208.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
他自己試他的需求去決定他要引進哪個國家我們不會去要求說你要進哪一國只是讓僱主可以有更多的一個選擇那我想請教就是說其實有很多這個臺商他們也有在印度那邊設廠那其實我另外一個想法就是說如果未來這個我們引進這個印度的移工那在他們到臺灣來這邊工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8223.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8252.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8252.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8280.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我第一個就是說我們其實後續的諮詢會議我們也會邀請曾經在印度投資或設廠或現在有設廠的台商來做我們的諮詢委員另外剛剛委員講的其實現在比如說像越南我們都台商在那邊設廠他也很希望說我們這邊如果移工回母國能夠過去不過我們也有那個機制去推薦就是說他給這個移工就是說你如果回去以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8281.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8306.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你想要找臺商的公司或公司的工作那我們也會提供資訊給他們所以我覺得說這個一方面也可以讓這個未來就是說印度移工如果要來臺灣的話其實讓他更有意願那讓一方面也是協助我們的臺商我覺得說勞動部可能針對這個部分配套措施可能要再做更完善一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8309.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8322.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
配套更周遠的規劃部長我想請教其實我們的高教體系遭受印度學生已經有30多年的時間其實時間真的非常長 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8324.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8325.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
有,其實我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8350.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8376.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
像一些我們現在的已經進來台灣的移工那有技術的那我們都希望他們能夠留下來所以我們其實在那個跨國就是那個人口的移民政策的小組裡面我們就是在推中階就希望這些優秀的移工留下來然後包括他的進修我們有跟教育部在就是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8377.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8377.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們到2月底是超過2萬5 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8394.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8417.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
轉換成中階的包括產業移工、社福移工是25000多人每個月大概都有2000人來申請所以我們這個計畫大概就是到2030所以你們自己覺得說這樣的計畫推動的成效好不好成效很好因為像報告委員我們超標我本來是抓到2030一年一萬我去年就兩萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8418.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8437.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好所以是超標那我們其實對這個部分我們是很有信心的覺得這個部分這是好的一個機制讓優秀移工可以留下來他有好的薪資條件我們也會持續來努力另外就是說其實這個移工的引進那有的國家是由政府直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8438.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8438.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
職聘中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8454.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8474.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
就是國對國引進的一個機制只是說現在有些國家他比較消極比如說像越南他比較消極還有就是像印尼他那個家庭看護工他就是明文說他不適用他們國家規定說不適用引進的執聘的機制不然如果可以我們都希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8475.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8490.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
大家藉由我們這樣的管道來引進尤其像那個叫什麼期約滿了之後的那個期滿轉換其實透過職聘可以幫忙讓他們可以省下一些仲介的費用所以我希望大家能夠來善用 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8491.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8508.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
一方面就是說我們今天在提到這個印度移工引進的這個問題可能社會的疑慮那也希望說勞動部要去適宜那另外一方面就是說我們目前這個流財久用剛剛部長覺得說這個成效還不錯所以我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8511.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8532.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
因為我在上一屆我也希望就是說你們要到這個工業區可能要去做一些說明因為有一些中小企業他們就是有這個需要原本這個移工他的技術最純熟的時候結果他時間到就要回到他母國那到母國之後反而是自己再開一家公司來對打臺灣這家公司所以當然目前的這個狀況來講應該是改善很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8535.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8547.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那個報告委員我們這個部分都有跟廠商聯合總會這邊在合作做宣導我還現在成立一個專案的移工流災總工中心在新竹那大家都可以透過我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8548.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8550.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我希望就是說,部長我也知道你很辛苦,我也很願意來解決問題啦,那當然就是說,要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8568.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8569.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
好,我們請王育民委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8604.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8606.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
謝謝主席,我們有請許部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8613.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8616.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
本席告訴你,因為你們在這次的政策當中做了三步。第一個,不透明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8635.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8658.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8663.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8684.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8686.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8713.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
部長,你們到底在怕什麼?就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候,你們不敢對外明確說明。我不相信這麼重大的事項,這個外交部的人員請上台,這麼重大的事項,我們要跟印度來簽MOU,可以在2月15號對外說,不太知道時間跟簽訂方式,隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署。 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8715.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8741.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8742.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8756.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能台印雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8772.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8793.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午零時決定。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8794.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8817.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得那你記得什麼事?沒有那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題我沒有迴避你的問題你的確就迴避了那那個勞發署署長講你也不知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8819.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8844.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是葉會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我再問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個你們這樣的回答很不行喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8846.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8864.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8866.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8890.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持聯繫溝通好什麼時候趕快講我自己時間有限因為這個時間也一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8895.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8923.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我記得不是選後不是1月你看你們兩邊根本都都不懂這很奇怪到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8924.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8925.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
報告委員 這個報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8949.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8964.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8964.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8991.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8992.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9001.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那個因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔你們報告是說你們已經完成你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOA的簽署喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9002.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9030.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
二月十六是視訊簽署那你什麼時候換文完成換文完成是二月二十六那有報告就說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9030.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9047.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9056.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9061.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有然後還用簡單的email跟這些公會或團體在拜訪的時候我有跟他們說明你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9085.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9112.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印MOU之前你們就是都沒有開報告委我們其實歷來齁報告委對不起我先讓我說我們歷來在增加來源國齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9113.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9139.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這個MOU的簽署之前這個都是政府做一個評估因為這就是新增來源國給雇主多一個選擇所以過去是沒有召開公聽會或做談話去徵詢大家的意見說我要新增印度好不好你確定都沒有嗎我記得以前沒有你確定都沒有你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委你確定都沒有嗎沒有問過他對啊那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9143.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9154.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
至少我認為,黃委員也在這裡都可以見證,好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9155.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9159.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個是兩件事啊部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9185.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9191.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
可以這麼的隨意嗎?開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9212.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9242.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9243.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9268.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦對啊,你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊報告也是因為疫情嘛,疫情那個移工真的有短﹑人數有降來再來就是說,我們現在的好不然你改變你的說法好了,我們現在移工缺口有多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9268.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9284.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口還有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9285.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9299.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個我想專委我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9300.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9320.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。不是不是,沒有沒有,報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好... |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9321.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9328.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,因為我時間很有限,我要告訴你的是說你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9347.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9371.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9372.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9397.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本時要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9399.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9424.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9426.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9447.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9448.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9449.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
接下來我們請盧縣議委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9484.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9484.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9498.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9501.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
8號委員我們其實在整個原住民的協助方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9527.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9553.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們持續的包括說就業的媒合職業的訓練我們都有一直在推動計畫在處理我要問的問題是說你們一年的編列的預算是多少針對原住民的勞工的一個比如說你說剛才的媒合或者是說你們的教育訓練有沒有編列多少的預算給我們我請署長查一下這邊有 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9561.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9588.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我請署長說明跟委員報告其實原住民我們現在其實都跟原民會一起在合作那預算如果是以今年113年其實我們大概編列了4億7千多萬那其實這裡面主要就是協助原住民包含職業訓練還有就業媒合協助那其實目前這幾年下來其實原住民在透過相關的一些大概整個的需求我們大概盡量的來做一個使用率有100%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9589.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9598.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
現在目前的就業的情況其實比過去都好很多,失業率其實跟我們現在的一般也已經都接近了我這邊有個數字,去年推介的就業率達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9603.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9627.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這是去年 74.32那我也同意這一兩個小時裡面很多委員所提到的執聘中心的檢討那我希望我本席辦公室也會收到你們檢討報告好不好然後接到我們進行今天的主題你部長告訴我一下你知道的印度是什麼樣的一個國家你的理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9628.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9654.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
他是一個文明古國有多元的這些豐富的文化那我的理解是他是全世界人口最多的國家是人口紅利他現在是人口紅利最多的國家包括青年的人口紅利那我們這次要來的是白領還是藍領我們是藍領藍領為主報告委員我們的白領早就有了我們現在在台灣的白領有2800多人我知道美國的引進的印度勞工是白領 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9656.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9684.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以我希望你們這邊能夠做一個所謂的限制因為他們的資訊的方面的所謂的也是很超前所以他們在美國錄用的印度移工是超過50%都是來自印度所以一旦我們簽署了MOU以後他們萬一有這方面的需求對我們這方面的要求會影響到我們本國的我們資訊業所以你們這方面要把關好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9685.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9686.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
你可以預期多少人是來自哪一區是說哪一種語言嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9703.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9725.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
目前這個都還要透過工作成績會議來談MOU簽完以後接下來就是重點就是工作成績會議這個就是要來決定哪些行業哪些人數包括語言條件技能條件等等因為我們常常在很多地方會看到越南語、泰語的標示還有或者是馬來西亞那你有 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9726.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9726.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9753.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9757.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那你知道去年整個印度的傳染病的前7名是哪些疾病嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9761.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9786.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
對,就是去年的資料,最新的,那我們扣除第一個跟最後一個,也就是說它是屬於已經退流行的,也就是季節性的話,其實前,你扣掉COVID-19,後來後來的這個或是Type 4,其實這些在我們國家是比較少見,而且是第二名這個瘧疾是有死亡風險的,這個部分的把關應該要嚴格把關。 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9787.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9815.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
報告委員喔,如果有這些都進不來,因為他們要來的話,第一個他要健檢合格,然後進來以後我看到你們的衛福部的報告裡面的那個對針對我們移工的一個健檢的部分齁,其實對你們的標準的作業,其實對每個國家的移工的都是一樣的,沒有因為針對他這個國家的特殊性做調整,我希望能夠提醒說以後這個瘧疾啊,或者傷感這些,如果萬一跑進來的話你們要怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9816.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9843.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
報告委員那個衛福部他未來他那邊要醫院經衛福部認可醫院的健康證明才會進來因為美國的幾乎所做的項目都一樣你不會因為針對是泰國是這樣然後印度是這樣我希望你能夠做一個修正是好不好沒問題有請看第1、2、3、4、5第5項是HIV他們的人口數這麼多所以這個部分你的那個routine的檢查裡面沒有這項這個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9846.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9872.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我是說你們的那個衛福部所要檢查的項目沒有包括這一項我有看那個第6頁的樣子這個部分委員我們會來注意就是每個國家的傳染病的狀況那你現在你知道現在我們的康復工就是來自越南或者是目前比較多的是印尼他們比較常發生的問題是什麼嗎我所謂的康復 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9874.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9903.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那請你委員指教大部分他們都是知識水準沒有那麼高然後其實大部分都在看手機然後一直在跟他母國的家人講話視訊講話其實在真正在照顧我們老人家的那個時間其實沒有那麼多他就按照三餐或者是該換尿布的時候該換藥的時候就做或是其他時間都這樣那我的意思是說當然每個人每個人的自由或者是說他的工作的態度不過我要要求是是不是看護的那個教育程度要稍微好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9904.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9926.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
至少在教他要怎麼換藥或者是要教他怎麼餵食的時候有一個基本的一個他的一個概念不然你完全沒有知識水準的一個看護工來的話你在照顧我們的老人家的時候你會放心嗎?是不是?是不是要做一個適當的調整?那你知道失戀移工都在哪裡嗎?大部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9930.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9952.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我知道的私立移工大部分都在山上在種一些植栽然後那我知道他們的問題當然說他們要申請要變成所謂的合法或什麼那些條件都非常的嚴格所以是不是在找到他們以後能不能是不是在司法性上面能不能一些教育或什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9953.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9954.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那再給我兩分鐘的時間謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9979.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9992.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那針對我們的巴士量表我希望今天能不能有一個比較明確的答案你們有沒有已經在進行規劃還是什麼免巴士量表這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9992.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10016.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
報告委員我們現在就是巴士任表以外我們還有多元的認定方式包括你使用長照那個超過6個月還有這些失智的還有一些身心特殊身心障礙的這個我們都有放寬認定再來就是他從早免評從早以後不用再在巴士任表免評這個我們也有放寬這個我們會持續滾動檢討也會跟衛福部這邊一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10022.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10047.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
以他們的專業來處理是不是就一個疾病診斷書就可以來取代?因為巴斯列表實在是太浪費很多的資源尤其是住在偏遠地區的族人他們要包車還要請家人載他們然後有時候剛好看的科別醫師請假或者是說他不願意的話他又要再花一天再過來等於是勞思動眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10048.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10063.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
報告委因為我們基本上康務工能夠聘請康務工他就是私能對我是說私能的認定其實在巴士量表巴士量表他是一個我想是各國所承認的標準只要是在台灣獲得合格醫師的執照他不會亂開 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10067.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10068.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
現在請楊耀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10100.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10101.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
部長好部長我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10126.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10150.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
外籍移工的政策我們的勞動政策是補充性的勞動力對不對是並不是替代性的可是這個到底是補充還是替代呢他有有有很多有很多有很多模糊的的地帶也就是說假如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10152.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10177.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我直接這樣子講好了比如說這幾年我們政府都有超預算徵收稅款這個我就直接大膽的假設是多數的企業其實是有賺錢的對不對才會有那麼多稅款可以收嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10181.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10208.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
假如說我們還缺工那麼厲害有沒有一種可能是因為受薪階級的薪資並沒有隨著經濟的成長增加?這個有沒有可能?有沒有可能?那正在勞動部的立場部長做過什麼還是有什麼你可以做的? |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10211.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10234.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你說有可能嘛,對不對?那勞動部站在保護勞工的立場,就加薪的部分有沒有做跨部會的溝通協調?有,像我們疫情的醫後呂樹葉的那個房屋清潔缺工的問題,那基本上他就是薪資太低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10235.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10251.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以在這個時候但是他又缺工那我們希望能夠導入本國勞工願意到缺工行業去所以就是我們跟交通部就雙管齊下交通部他就做一個補貼業者他有要補貼有我來獎勵勞工讓他這個除了薪資以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10257.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10280.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我向我獎勵勞工他還可以增加收入希望就是說能夠讓他的薪資未來就是帶動提升起來除了公部門做的部長剛剛講的就是交通部來補助理事業者然後你來補助勞工對不對除了這個以外到底政府有沒有辦法去 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10292.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10308.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
現在經濟部就是關於那個加薪減稅的那個措施他們好像是要希望再延長就是說跨部會像我們當然薪資的部門像我們每年調整基本工資我們也呼籲僱主能夠跟進那經濟部也透過加薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10308.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10313.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我為什麼先提這個問題呢因為這個問題會你的薪資跟消費指數差太差太大的話就會讓所有的勞動力都變成都變成補充性的懂我意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10339.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10341.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以跟委員報告我們也一直在跟企業主呼籲他一方面在喊缺工缺財 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10363.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10388.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
但我們也提醒他,你的薪資條件是不是合理?你的勞動條件是不是OK?還有就是說你的企業的整個發展,會不會讓勞工有願景?這個都是勞工要不要去你的公司上班的,他要去思考的。所以就是說各方面都是要去,大家要做努力啦。不是說你喊缺工,但是你什麼都不做。我再怎麼努力, |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10388.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10404.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
勞工不願意去我也沒辦法你一直用那麼低的薪資不過我還是要講啦就是說對勞工最大的保障還是要企業可以穩定的成長所以我們並不是說只是說看起來這幾年就是國內的企業是賺錢的連帶的國家的稅收多嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10410.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10437.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那企業賺錢沒有回饋給受僱的勞工這個當然會自然會產生缺工的狀況就是維林講的沒有錯因為有賺錢那這個就是我們講的經濟果實要跟勞工分享對我覺得這個問題台灣政府必須要很正式而且要努力的去把它處理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10449.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10456.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
部長我問一下我們現在就是要引進印度的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10462.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10490.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
臺灣當然因為高齡化我們剛才講的那個問題是也是缺工的一個現象那最主要的就是高齡化跟少子化少子化當然就是工作年齡人口跟勞動力會下降那高齡化可能就是反而會產生高齡者的照顧需求者重我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10493.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10521.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
移工的主要來源國只有4個國家我看韓國、日本他們大概來源國都有10個差不多10個以上那來源國少存在的風險是不是比較大?是是嗎?這個也就是為什麼我們積極跟印度的一個原因嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10525.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10526.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那為什麼我們沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10528.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10554.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
多找一些國家來簽訂協定其實委員過去像發展署這邊也都很努力去找一些東南亞的國家但是有些譬如說他們意願或條件或政治因素的考量等等這個都造成我們一直沒有辦法順利找到適合的移工來源國的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10555.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10556.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我最後問一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10584.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10603.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
李樹葉啊李樹葉其實現在缺工也缺得很厲害那有沒有打算要開放李樹葉的報告委員這個議題那個觀光署有提提那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10604.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10624.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
有評估過來我們也開過專家學者的會議2月1號有開過但因為他的報告還有一些內容包括因為他之前好像只有針對那個觀光旅館而已那包括民宿沒有對我現在要問的就是所以我們就要求專家學者要求他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10625.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10648.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
要各頁不僅觀光旅館包括民宿等等他們的缺工情況還有他們的工作負荷的要求等等薪資還有你的薪資所佔的成本的比例還有你有沒有可能用使用中高齡高齡者來就業還有自動化都要他們再補足 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10649.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10669.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
因為民宿比較特殊,它很難去符合本外勞的比例以澎湖的旅宿發展來講,其實民宿的發展的速度是比旅館、飯店要快得多而且也多得多 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10669.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10689.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以這個在討論的時候請部長這邊注意一下各地區的發展特殊性也一併考慮一下委員這個部分因為會由關公署來提案我會轉給他們提醒他們這個部分要特別的去了解好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 我們謝謝楊耀委員的質詢接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10711.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10723.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
來,部長,好了齁請部長,謝謝主席好,有請部長部長,姚委員剛剛講那件事情齁,我覺得他問得不太精確這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10728.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10748.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
李肅業主計總處統計是高達5,221人但業者提供給勞動部的專案持缺人數就只有剩下1,346人這個落差為什麼會這麼大?是不是勞動部在資格的限定上太過嚴苛?不嚴苛,我們北部的薪資3萬,中南部東部2萬8 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10757.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10777.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
主席總書統計資料是52221嗎?我的意思是說你要來用我缺工的協助方案我們有給業者希望你要薪資達一定的水平才能夠參加我們這個方案你不能低薪很低然後又要叫我來 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10781.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10799.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以你們有各個面向的一個審核,之後才去做核定就對了啦?這確實是這樣出來的是不是?你這顯然你要跟主席總書溝通嘛,這樣落差,他是以實際上的缺工,去把這個數字呈現出來,那你沒有用很多的面向去做一個審核,才去做這樣的一個提報,是這樣嗎?合定? |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10802.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10826.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
是不是這樣,不然這個落差值3000多人,這其一嘛齁,你看齁,其二你看勞動部在這個我們的救護機構推介了6507人的時候,其實專案職缺錄取人數才690人,嚇我啊,一成多,所以這邊也要很嚴謹,這邊要更嚴謹,還是這邊...不是不是不是,因為我們推介了他不用啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10830.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10852.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
你們推薦他都不用,你們推薦是有問題不是,沒有問題,我們都有照他開的那個規格條件去幫他找人可是我們推薦過去他不用,他缺工當然他挑工你照他們的規格推薦過去他還不用,他們挑戰你們業者在缺工的情況之下還在挑戰你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10855.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10883.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
沒關係啦,部長,我就把這個數據提供給你做參考這個數據明顯上是有問題的一個現在進行式啦是不是給我們數根資料到底你怎麼做這樣的一個處理方式好不好我覺得還是要討論這個啦,開放印度移工我坦白講我真的會持有不同的意見啦因為我看你們的報告,等一下把報告拿過來給我一下我不曉得為什麼現在要去開放印度移工的原因最主要是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10885.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10900.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
因為其實委員長久以來社會各界還有包括在大院的朝野委員之前都有希望我們能夠去開展尋找新的來源國因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10901.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10916.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
到目前為止只有4個來源國齁那有時候這個依賴風險會很大啦依賴風險嘛對不對所以我們就因為有依賴這樣的風險所以就必須要分散風險嘛你的邏輯是這樣嘛對不對但是目前的移工來源國並沒有缺工啊目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10917.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10940.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
目前的移工來源國是當然可以引進移工但是如果他減少像現在泰國的移工不太進來我們的營造業過去都蠻依賴泰國移工但是真的最近的業界跟我們反應就是說不太能夠找得到人印尼也曾經一度 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10941.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10955.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
用零負擔的政策也暫停引進它是在2020年很初零互惠嘛對不對對,所以那個都對我們的僱主造成高風險所以我們也必須去多增加來源國來讓這個過度依賴風險能夠降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10959.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10979.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對2020那個零互惠要這個輸入的僱主自行負擔所有的規範也勞動部去跟印尼政府去做相關溝通之後才取消嘛所以他時不時到時候又有什麼狀況你們要很會心的去處理這樣的事情所以你必須要去做這樣的分散風險對不對但是部長你看現在這個數據顯然沒有在分散風險怎麼說四個國家進來你看外企在看護 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10986.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11007.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
家庭看護工、印尼是我們總托都是20萬出嘛齁那印尼就佔了16萬對照其他三國的比例已經高達79%嘛我們沒有再做任何的分散調整了這其一啦齁這個數據當然是現在的數據了這個過程5年因為我時間的關係不然照理講你的報告裡面應該把這個數據給我們做參考其一啦齁其二你看這個產業製造業的製造業的部分齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11017.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11039.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
4、7萬多印尼、馬來西亞、菲律賓、泰國、越南又是最高的,佔了46%一個佳嶺康復工,印尼是最高79%然後四頁面的這個移工製造業的越南市22萬多是佔了46%多這5年的變化怎麼樣?我想我如果還沒有看到資料,我可以推敲,就是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11040.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11064.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以我們讓一個輸入國的這個勞工的比例一直持續的高居不下我們就會製造更大風險的存在而不是你現在去再輸入一個新進的一個來源國就可以去降低風險這是我的邏輯跟我的思考比如你在這個基礎面你不去做相關的調整而後你就會再遇到像印尼那一個零互惠的事情再發生一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11066.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11093.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
問題是這樣因為基本上就是他要選擇哪個來源國的移工這是雇主他來決定我們其實會尊重雇主的選擇像雇主他會喜歡用印尼移工他覺得他可能就是比較乖巧然後比較不是啦我們引進進來我們要分散風險然後部長你又打呼我說是尊重雇主他要聘來一個國家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11093.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11095.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
其二,你看今天的報告,不管是勞動部、不管是移民署,針對這個逃跑外遙 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11117.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11140.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
去年的1月已經來到8064人了齁8萬出了齁今年的1月已經來到85947報告裡面從頭到尾沒有提到這事情怎麼處理是其一喔那其二印度的印度的輸出他國的這些移工在他國的逃逸情況是什麼狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11141.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11152.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
報告裡面也完全沒有提出所以所以你今天要跟我講說印度移工進來之後會不會我們可能明年就會突破逃跑外島達10萬的10萬人的這個大關這個報告委員自己沒有沒有部長你先聽我講我今天要去贊成你做這個政策之前我當然要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11163.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11190.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我要看到你們相關的資料是讓我們可以安心的讓我們可以去對外說得清楚的對不對我們今天針對淘寶外勞因為過去疫情的關係種種這個我都很清楚因為確實台灣也缺工的非常嚴重然後在惡性循環的情況之下每年累積了這麼多人那現在在開放印度的這個移工進來那印度的移工在他國的整個整個他們的情況淘寶的比例到底是多高我們都不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11191.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11205.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那你現在是要來引進他們來衝破十萬大關嗎?你這個要讓我們知道啊然後你勞動部難道只是引進人然後抓人就是移民署那移民署也沒有在這個報告裡面特別提到這個事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11206.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11232.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
報告委員這個部分我們再來收集相關的資訊因為我們之前所理解的它其實在世界各國的一個使用狀況還有包括說它的逃跑等等並沒有說特別的這個嚴重的狀況但是如果剛剛委員講的我們再請再來收集資訊並沒有特別的嚴重狀況那我希望我要求勞動部提供這個資料給我們對比其他各國 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11234.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11259.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
對比印度的移工在他國的情況逃跑的比例怎麼樣給委員會做參考嘛這基本嘛對不對然後另外一個你們在報告裡面又寫的我覺得寫這個對部長絕對是不好啦推銷好像在推銷這個印度的移工有多好你們很多問題都沒有去討論到嘛報告中提到印度憲法已經明文禁止印度教的種姓制度歧視問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11261.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11283.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這事實是沒有錯啦,但是其實行為是可以透過憲法跟法律名義就可以禁止嘛你也知道這是不可能的事嘛但是你為什麼報告寫這樣,我也不曉得然後進來的基本上絕對是他們最底層的這個勞動階級嘛他們進來我相信他們也會珍惜他們的工作機會我也相信嘛但是這又牽涉到人權問題我們在齁,我們在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11287.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11312.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
長期被國際關注,甚至於美國國務院在2021年的時候,人權報告中也特別提到臺灣移工的權利問題。這兩件事情在一起。那,印度移工要引進到臺灣相關的資源系統,被起了嗎?被起了嗎?建制,有沒有事先的建制作業?因為文化不同,語言不同。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11314.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11330.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
而且又在部長你的任內都還沒有開放新的這個移工來源國的情況之下就是你當部長這麼久第一次要做事情那這些事情都沒有做相關好的評估還有甚至於應該要建設的前置作業都沒有做之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11331.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11355.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
你就要做了嗎?沒有,報告委我們現在MOU簽署只是說大家合作的意向初步那接下來就是會進入實質的討論包括相關的配套規劃這個我們都會來處理因為其實從MOU簽署然後後面工作層級會談完你說我們要整個確定以後我們才會正式公告不是不是今天召委排這個你就要 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11355.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11357.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好,那我最後就這樣好不好,第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11384.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11406.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我剛才提到分散風險的方法、方式是不是有更精準的一個處理的一個方向那第二個總性文化的不同然後我們前置的作業預估你們怎麼做嘛那第三個就是剛剛我特別提到說他們在他國的這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11408.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11420.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
的逃逸的比例是怎麼樣?是不是可以我們提供做參考?以上。好不好?謝謝。好,謝謝召委。謝謝。我們謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢。主席,各位大家午安。是不是請我們這個許部長。好,請許部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11441.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11461.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
林委好部長好好久不見了這個是我重新回到未完委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11465.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11470.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你說中了還要查詢? |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11476.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11505.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我告訴你人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長你署長你不用再查我可以告訴你10% |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11507.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11509.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
來源地區將來我們會在工作層級會議來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11535.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11549.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11553.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11571.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11572.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11590.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11592.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11611.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11614.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11631.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊就知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11645.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11648.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
你不知道?你自己做的報告你都不知道?現在68.2% |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11654.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11670.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
再來就是發生逃跑失聯34%再來是溝通困難如配合度不高等27.4%是你們自己做的事業單位那家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11676.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11688.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11689.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11717.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那我們今天這個台灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的規劃引進印度移工的配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11718.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11738.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11743.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11746.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,剛剛3月1號也開過會 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11751.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11778.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
開過會你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會議邀請專家是外交部給我們的印度專家外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議還是你們內部的另外我們工作層級會議還沒有是你們的準備會議邀請了外部的對諮商的我們會現在會有諮詢小組那比例有多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11780.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11807.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
什麼比例你們署長跟委員報告因為我們現在臨編專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要我再問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了九成九然後邀請一個專家也是專家這全部都對啦我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11810.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11814.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11827.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11846.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你職聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11852.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11867.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11870.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11880.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11887.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11905.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11905.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11913.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
如果照過去錯誤的引進外的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11930.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11934.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們是希望說啊你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練啊等等啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11949.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11952.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削那這樣子他才能夠安心的穩定的在台灣就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11969.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11969.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11999.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12027.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那不要忘了你知道RBARBA他們對於國際品牌其實做了一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12031.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12037.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
BNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12058.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12073.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12074.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12102.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12104.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12107.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12123.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12139.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上阿扁而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12140.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12168.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12171.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12191.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
以色列模式是由政府,印度政府負責培訓,而且訓練內容是由台灣,要由輸入國來提出,而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節要去扭轉,比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗列為基本選工標準, |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12193.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12214.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
進階的技能檢定他沒有強制但是他有這個那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12216.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12237.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
甚至我們你再積極作為你要想移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12239.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12266.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12267.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12267.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
國對國執聘可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12290.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12316.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12321.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12328.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
臨時提案第一案建於勞動部與印度完成簽署促進雇用引進印度勞工瞭解備忘錄MOU引發民眾恐慌社會嘩然 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12341.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12362.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
且經查勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組﹐過去兩年並無任何有關印度移工引進的相關討論提案與決議﹐原此建請勞動部﹐一、進行社會影響評估﹐勞動市場影響評估﹐政策可行性評估報告﹐二、邀請勞資政學還有移工仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12363.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12386.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
與移工權益代表在立法院召開公聽會．緊速在各縣市政府逐一召開說明會盤證現有同意與移工生活轉業等服務量能．最後針對現有失聯外勞暴增現象提出階段性精進改善計畫與目標勞動部在未完成上述精進作為與目標前不得禁止開放印度移工路徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12386.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12415.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
提案人委員．圖全吉．連署人委員．陳金輝．蘇清泉第二案．勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫庸工作之我國僱主資格．依現行法規定．僅由家戶成員符合．有3名以上之年6歲以下子女．或有4名以上之年12歲以下子女．且其中2名為年6歲以下條件之一．類計點數滿16點者．使得申請招募或承接外國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12416.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12434.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
然上述規定並不符合現今國情為減緩家庭壓力原建議勞動部放寬審查標準修正相關規定至家有一名6歲以下輕度或中度罕病兒累計點數16點下修及家中有兩名4歲以下幼兒提案人委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12438.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12455.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
第三案經查勞動部新聞稿與媒體相關報導﹐談應雙方於1、2年6月左右即開始洽談直至本國視訊與印度簽署MOU前一日﹐勞動部仍表示簽署相關期程與方式仍在研議中又查自洽談一時﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12456.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12480.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
其間卻未曾有召開政策說明會、公聽會與國人溝通：更未有政策影響評估、社會影響評估、勞動力市場需求與衝擊評估等報告以供參考．原要求勞動部於召開公聽會、三場座談會與政策影響評估報告前．不應盡致適行引進印度移工提案人委員王育敏、廖偉祥、盧憲一第4案 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12485.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12503.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
臺灣外勞失聯後逃逸情形自110年以來成長比例增加近40%失聯移工情形相當嚴重並對臺灣社會與治安形成潛在問題有鑒於移工引進多數透過國內仲介業者後續管理移轉雇主等業務一同 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12504.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12526.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
故未維護合法業者與移工權益．有效自源頭降低逃逸外勞數量．原要求勞動部應針對引進移工失聯率過高之仲介業者．於一定期間內禁止引進移工．並於一個月內沿你預警機制與業者失聯率評估標準．提案人委員王玉敏、廖偉祥、盧憲一．第5案 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12526.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12545.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
有鑑於巴士量表已經超過10年沒有調整其次很多長輩的失能有時候是跟環境相關包括獨居失衣沒有主要照顧者等並非巴士量表可以反映出來的真實情形變成許多實際上有需求的人也會被排除在外原要求勞動部檢討外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第11款工作資格及審查標準放寬被看護者應據條件為 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12555.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12562.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
年齡滿80歲以上．無需經醫療機構所作專業評估．70歲以上經診斷為癌症二期患者．或年齡未滿80歲．經醫療機構以團隊方式所作專業評估．認定有全日照顧需要者．並請勞動部於一個月內將檢討結果回覆．立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會．提案人委員．邱振軍、王育敏、盧憲一宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12583.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12585.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12595.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12622.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
報告召委員、各位委員第一案那個我們知道土委員在關心那個印度整個相關的評估那以及未來整個的一個相關的對外的溝通那因為目前因為整個相關的評估其實我們卻會完成相關的評估這部分我們可以提供那另外就是在整個社會的溝通面上其實我們現在已經有一個跟相關的專家諮詢跟跨部會以及未來相關利害關係團體其實會有一個溝通的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12623.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12640.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
至於說這個為後續整個的一個規劃在相關的未來移工引進之後的這個生活相關的翻譯或照顧這個其實都會配套來完成那最後就失聯移工這個我們本來就有同步在整個未來做一個精進所以可能是不是建議委員是不是能夠同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12641.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12653.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為現在MOU現在的進度就是因為雙方已經完成這個範文那在行政院被查之後可能後續比較重要是在工作層級會議的討論那剛剛大概委員關心的這些議題我們會同步來進行就是相關的評估報告以及相關的一些未來的一個對外的一個溝通跟一個政策諮詢的一個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12663.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12691.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那這一部分是不是建議在整個程序面上面是不是容許我們就是我們還是照目前的MVP的進度那相關這裡面所提到的評估報告跟我們的一些相關的對話的溝通跟這個利害關係人的一個專家諮詢的討論那這部分我們會再按照委員的指示我們來做一個辦理以上那你這樣講的意思你要修正什麼樣的文字這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12692.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12706.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
你們的修正文字有跟委員溝通嗎?因為剛剛是有跟土委員這邊溝通我們是建議修正文字是這樣子就是後面1234跟最後一段都建議刪除改成從 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12710.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12731.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
第6行原始建請勞動部．以下是建議修正的文字．召開跨部會及學者專家諮詢會議．及邀請各利害關係團體參與討論．並提供具體評估報告．送本院社會福利及衛生委員會之各委員這是這個建議的修正文字徒惠園可以同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12744.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12745.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
委員就要發言．可以上台發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12754.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12780.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
好 謝謝主席那針對這個它這個完善的評估報告那有沒有包含我們比較明確的像社會影響評估、勞動市場評估跟政策可行性評估因為一些完善評估我覺得很模糊、懵懂這個我們都納入那可以註明嗎那是不是我們的文字這三個面向這個文字我們在整個的報告裡面我們都會把它納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12781.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12797.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
就是明確說至少這三個評估報告一定要做嘛因為你講完善我覺得太模糊了那是不是我們建議文字並提供社會影響評估、勞動市場影響評估及政策可行性評估等完善評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12798.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12813.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那說明會的部分呢說明會是這樣因為我們現在已經會建立一個平台有專家政策跟相關的一些代表那這部分我們會來邀請納入我們現在其實已經召開像我們3月1號已經召開第一次會議已經在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12815.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12832.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那你們召集各縣市召開說明會這會有困難嗎?我們是不是建議委員因為目前因為各縣市對這個議題可能還並不是很實質就是說如果未來在討論的時候我們可以找部分的就移工可能需求比較大的縣市有一些代表也參與我們的討論那同意的部分呢?這個就是未來在配套上那個工作層級會議的配套這部分都是會同步來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12843.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12860.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那因為你們一直說他這個針對英文的部分那是你是引進的部分會特別注明針對英文的部分溝通能力的問題對因為根本因為這個部分還要透過雙邊的工作會議這個還要跟印度方來做一個討論我們會提出我們的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12864.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12891.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
提案不能註明說要求你們在各縣市召開說明會解決各縣市的疑慮跟委員報告因為現在因為這只是一個目前初步目前只是一個合作的一個框架跟意向那後續就是說整個在整個一旦確定在工作會議在討論的過程當中假如有跟各縣市未來在執行上有關這個部分我們後續會在後續再來做一個妥善的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12892.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12920.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好那就是那個針對報告的部分我們那幾項一定要特別注明那你在召開會議的時候要請各縣市要請各縣市的代表我們會邀請部分比較主要縣市代表來參與好好我們謝謝徒委員好接下來第二案報告委員第二案我們無意見沒有意見好另一位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12926.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12951.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
署長你作為一個勞動部的主管機關你對這個沒有意見讓我們覺得很訝異第一個就是說我們對於開放外籍的家世邦庸到這個台灣本來就有規定現在他是要放寬那我們支持你有輕度、中度、很病兒或者是這個比較需要人家照顧的這一個條件我們是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12952.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12960.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
但是他後面提案是說家中有兩名4歲以下的幼兒也要放寬這個門檻那以前我們就談過說松阪外籍邦傭聘僱的門檻他恐怕會造成替代結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12969.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12987.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我們知道外籍幫傭、外籍勞工到台灣輸入,我們最擔心的有兩種,一個是補充或者是替代。當然我們大多數的外籍移工都是補充原則,我們都說台灣人不愛做了嘛,那我們就補充進來。但台灣人不愛做,補充進來其實還產生第二個後果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12992.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12999.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
就是拉低我們的薪資事實上已經有了而我們就要回頭過來討論所謂的家庭邦庸這個市場會不會產生這個衝擊會不會產生替代那我們知道道府保姆啊他除了協助家事清潔、食物烹飪、終點阿姨他們也是來做居家清潔、料理烹飪、雜務收納或者折騰衣服等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13019.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13036.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這個是家事的部分那育兒家庭呢大部分現在模式是送到外面的托育服務體系如果你降低了這個聘僱外籍幫用的標準他是不是在鼓勵你回歸到家庭由家庭裡面回到家庭那在這種狀況裡面他不但衝擊到這個終點清潔阿姨、終點保母還衝擊到現在的兒照產業的從業人員的工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13048.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13061.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那現在有2萬8千名保姆他有沒有可能面臨沒有小孩可以帶那兒照產業、托嬰中心、幼兒園更有幾萬的從業人員他們是不是也要失業那我接著要講從孩子的權利育兒的這個專業來看我已經講過了外籍幫傭取代到府服務的保姆或是專業的保姆其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13076.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13091.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
免疫育兒的專業 背離了育兒照顧他現在已經在走向專業化和證照化了你不要小看我們的保母喔 也不要小看這一群人即使他們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13092.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13106.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
不只是保姆,包括家事、清潔員,他們都是要受訓,要有學分的要求,然後甚至政府要鼓勵這些人培訓以外還要認證制度,我們是走向這樣子專業,要來做育兒,育兒不是跟他家裡吃的飽、阿嬌會睡照顧生活起居,不是! |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13115.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13144.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面你說你沒你兩名4歲以下的幼兒我認為這個東西不能知識體大你讓這些清潔終點清潔業的人保姆幼兒幼兒園還有這個托嬰中心還有專業化的照顧制度都要走回頭路都要面臨沒工作啊把育兒貶抑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13145.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13154.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
非專業化因為那個提案的委員他現在不在所以我們就是先這案就暫緩不處理好謝謝因為有委員有不同意見我們就暫緩不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13161.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13182.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
跟委員報告那第三案王委員大概也提醒那個MOU推動之後可能相關的影響跟評估報告那是不是能夠比照剛剛土委員這個方式因為我們未來這個評估報告一定會提供給各委員那是不是以我們剛剛跟土委員的討論的那個方向這個文字上來做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13184.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13205.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我這邊比較著重是你們要跟社會的溝通你剛剛講的是專家學者但是現在其實民間有一些包括之前他站出來的這些團體你們剛剛說用email跟他們溝通我覺得這個是很不足而且是單向式的email已讀不回然後你們就算了這樣我覺得這件事情真的要成功是讓社會徹底理解就是說你們準備了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13206.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13232.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
做了什麼那這樣的社會溝通才是成功的所以我建議你們你們應該要比較具體承諾你們大概會去開你要不要開公聽會或是要不要開座談會除了專家學者的會議之外那如果要開可能大概是幾場你如果覺得三場很多那你大概要開幾場我希望是比較明確其實在幫你們因為你社會溝通不做我覺得反而會阻礙你你未來所有工作的進行好不好如果你們可以辦那就就 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13237.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13243.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
就是你就承諾說你們會召開相關的公聽會或座談會就是跟社會進行溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13247.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13274.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
跟委員報告其實我們現在那個諮詢會其實就有類似這個性質因為我們參與者就是除了有那麼廣泛嗎對我們現在打算一些利害關係團體阿包含現在公民團體我們其實會邀請啦我們未來把那個邀請的對象會盡量再更多那你們要提供讓本委員會知道你們邀請了誰而且要打一定比例阿民間團體會打我們會邀請對啊因為剛剛林委員也有問阿邀一個也是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13276.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13287.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
對阿規劃要不然你就要具體規劃送委員會我們會持續監督好不好我們依照召委的指示就是我們在這個諮詢會議我們把相關的要參與者規劃大家也會比較清楚然後你可以規劃然後你這團體在疑慮的是什麼我覺得這樣反而好我也剛才說只有單方的官方 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13304.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13333.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
好,下一次你們要回復委員會,你們大概會召開機場,這樣諮詢會,然後那頻率你們是多久開一次,好不好?你們要怎麼開?對,因為待會,待會還會有諮詢,你們修正完之後再給本席看那這個先,待會再回來看好,來,第4案 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13341.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13363.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
中介管理這個我想這個我們會遵照委員的指示好那就通過好謝謝來第5案第5案因為針對因為高齡針對現行的這個看護移工的這個申請可能因為巴士量可能對部分地區有造成不便其實這個我們跟衛務部都持續在檢討那這個案子我們會遵照委員的指示我們來做檢討跟評估這個案子我們沒有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13364.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13381.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
好 那第5案也通過那就是剛剛那個第三案的文字修正就是你們待會再提供給本席好 那我們的這個臨時提案都已經全部還沒有完全處理完畢就第三案文字要再提供給本席那接下來我們繼續質詢我們請謝伊鳳委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13394.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13399.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
關於移工政策的問題其實在我們民間就一直有不同的聲音就是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13420.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13445.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我在經濟委員會質詢發現我們今年度本來預估我們的經濟是緊縮的那可能就是說我們的製造業會放緩但是現在庫存銷的差不多了可能民間的製造業又開始在加班或者是在幹工那會不會增加我們勞工的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13446.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13473.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
會不會?你們預估呢?你們有相關的預估嗎?當然,如果經濟成長率好的話,當然...你們在院會裡面有做相關的討論嗎?因為今天他們都在上修我們的經濟成長,過去可能都是2點多趴,可能今天都會到了3點多趴,那3點多趴的時候對於勞動力,現在坊間在不同的業別已經有缺工的問題了,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13474.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13495.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
是,缺工的問題一直存在對,那如果缺工的問題你們短期內怎麼樣解決?我們其實報告委員除了已經開放業別就是移工的引進以外那另外在本國勞工的部分我們是希望說譬如說我們中高齡高齡者的續留或者這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13497.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13501.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
但是你們這種引導的方式有沒有辦法解決這個問題因為其實我們當初也很單純的認為勞動力可以自由的流動嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13518.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13529.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
可是後來發現不同的業別勞動力要自由的流動的確有困難啊就如同在疫情的期間我們發現製造業晃反的時候我們希望他把它導到餐飲業在去年當我們的製造業當我們的那個什麼餐飲業需求量變大的時候我們又希望說說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13542.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13556.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
其他的業別跑到參議院可是我們發現都沒有辦法就是說讓他們自由的流動啊是不是因為勞工在職業的選擇是自由性的嘛是啊是啊我們要尊重勞工的選擇只要說他有意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13557.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13577.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
想要這個流動到跨域的產業,我們也會透過資訊來幫忙。對,可是我們說這個是沒有辦法,這個很難啊,我們沒有辦法說,那所以你怎麼解決缺工的問題未來?缺工,因為,報告委員,缺工問題一直存在啦,那政府的重點就是說我們如果去開發,去開發這些勞動力,包括說很多,像我們台灣其實以那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13583.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13603.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
50歲以上的這個勞參率是整個比起韓國日本是降了將近20%那我們會希望把這些還是壯世代的這些勞動力人口能夠希望他們重返職場所以我們最近也推了計畫希望說在三年內我們可以至少在50歲以上這個壯世代能夠增加30萬的人力進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13604.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13630.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
好那這個部分就是說我們會看產業的需求那去去調整對於有一些製造業他沒有辦法他如果缺工的問題一直存在很久的情況下那我們本就是本國的勞動力不願意參與的情況下那我們怎麼樣子解決這個缺工的問題他們希望能夠提就是提高或者是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13631.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13648.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
就是同一個業別的這個移工的這個現額比例提高那有沒有辦法?那個報告委我們現在就是extra制嘛比如說你原來的合配比例是多少你想要增加可以你就是就案費增加就可以聘到最高可以到40% |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13651.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13665.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
就是你可以加等於說加救安費來提高你的比率那另外還有就是國內承接比如說有些移工他因為原來的業別他可能現在沒有缺那麼多人那他可能是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13666.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13670.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
為什麼沒有辦法讓基層的中小企業主可以了解呢?因為如果是這樣子,你有人家就不知道了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13690.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13705.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
我們都工業區都去辦座談然後各分熟的都發表座談那有一些不在工業區裡面報告委員我覺得很多問題是這樣就是說可能因為我們辦座談有時候不是僱主來啦都是他裡面的職員來那回去有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13707.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13734.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
如實的來把這些機制讓老闆知道因為包括我自己也去跟僱主座談他們也說我哪都不知道可是我跟他說我們怎麼辦啊就常常說可能來上來開會的人他沒有回去沒有跟僱主提供這些資訊但是沒有問題其實我們勞動部我們的網站各項的就業資訊各項的協助都有我是鼓勵企業主或者你打個1955來你有什麼問題我們都可以專人來幫你服務那我們各地的分署 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13735.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13763.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
各地的分屬我們甚至就是企業有缺工需求我還請同仁去專人去服務客製化的來幫你媒合這個都可以做得到的會不會你在這個委員會講一套那在地方的沒有沒有沒有我跟你說你們根本不是這樣子嘛那我要求你們到我的那個可以可以委員因為我聽到的情況就不是如此嘛我剛在這幾天我光跟中小企業座談就很多很多場 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13765.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13779.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
不過有一個問題就是我剛剛跟你講的部主真的不曉得因為來上課的人回去沒有講所以我只要我親自去講我都要求至少就是一定要總經理、董事長乘起來因為他們才會去瞭解他們關注的問題在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13781.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13802.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
他才會知道說原來政府有那麼多措施所以委員如果你可以辦個座談會我可以去講對因為工業區他們現在就是面臨的就是長期就是我如果今天的經濟成長是如此的情況下那未來我們國內有一些產業是本國的勞工不願意去從事的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13803.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13825.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那本來我們就應該要讓當然第一個我們是應該用就是我們的智慧的機械來減低我們的這個勞動力的比例嘛然後但是你短期的問題缺工的問題還是要解決嘛你們中間的那些人員是不是應該要不要影響我們的質詢這樣子我們就是質詢沒有效率嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13827.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13840.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
好對啊沒關係這個部分我會把相關的資料給你那有必要我也可以去跟業者座談雙向溝通那我們因為我會交代發展署這邊去 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13843.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13869.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
在您轄區的工業區在辦座談,邀請僱主來好,因為中小企業對於這個相關的法令那如果他們沒有辦法就是說得到進一步的了解的時候那對於我們國內的製造業以及相關的這個經濟成長就沒有辦法增加嘛,是不是?那對於我們地方的發展也會受限啊,好不好?好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13871.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13884.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
好謝謝謝一芬委員的質詢那我們中午就不休息我們繼續委員的質詢接下來請張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在我們請李燕秀委員進行質詢請部長好請許部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13895.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13916.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
部長好,好久不見,回來這個委員會這個位子就非常的熟悉,但是事實上我們平常,雖然我隔了4年才回到立法院,但是平常我們在基層的工會其實我們常碰到,所以就勞工的議題,其實李燕秀一直都長期的關心,我想部長你非常清楚,無論行政補助費,這一次我會繼續回來追,要再與時俱進,現在什麼都在講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13920.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13942.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
第二點今天的主要的議題救安基金我想今天時間不夠另外我希望今年省決算的時候我有機會再跟你好好的討論但是整個救安基金的使用其實跟今天的專案報告也非常有關係我們先看一下我今天做的圖表青年就業的問題從你們今天提供的資料其實青年就業的失業率 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13946.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13972.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
其實沒有降低看起來我們整體失業率其實好像有降低但是今年的失業率其實整體來說從110年到112年其實一樣是居高不下那在這一次產業移工跟社福移工的比例的部分我也看到從110年到112年之間我們的產業移工跟我們現在的社福移工比例大概在 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13972.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13987.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們現在總共大概75萬左右嘛對不對那有將近50萬左右是產業的移工是產工對然後大概20幾萬是部長我覺得齁現在各行各業很多都缺工我並不認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13989.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14000.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
移工政策不能做討論我覺得可以做討論但是我非常遺憾的是選前包括今天印度移工政策選前你說否認說我們根本沒有談事實上我們有談我只是說還沒簽啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14005.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14029.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這個談的事情連個影子都沒有甚至在官方網站上說沒有這件事情這是假訊息不是不是那是10萬的移工是假訊息一直在談這個所以部長部長我覺得都可以談但是這個政策移工政策就必須好好更認真更深刻的談因為包括其他跨部會的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14030.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14051.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我們就要思考得非常清楚我們不是說今天大家都喊說我們缺護理人員那我們是不是下個階段我們護理人員也要用移工來做就是說各行各業都缺工但是跨部會對於移工的政策長遠的規劃跟考慮是什麼我覺得就要思考得非常清楚營造業的缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14052.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14078.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我清楚可能台灣很少人要去做營造業這部分的勞工所以我們需要移工但是如果我們每一個都只要是缺我們就用移工政策來補我覺得勞動部就會變成移民署你就不要叫勞動部外面有人這樣子批評所以我們應該要有一個短中長期的規劃跟思考不是缺什麼我就移工補什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14079.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14099.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
對沒錯你認同我的說法嗎是是部長如果是這樣子的話那我覺得年輕世代對我們來說很重要年輕世代包括現在貧富差距越來越大年輕人對於現在的失落感低薪也非常的心裡也覺得非常的受傷所以這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14101.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14123.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
長遠來說所以我剛剛提到青年就業的問題失業率的問題我青年失業率是逐年在降這3年我從8.78、8.38降到去年8.01有在降不是說逐年升高這個我數據可以給委員我覺得部長這個平均數去年其實降到金融海嘯以來最低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14124.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14131.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
去年只有8.01部長去年113年去年1128.3920到24 11.76部長我今天時間不多我不知道你是不是因為這樣的數據就滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14140.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14159.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
但青年就是說現在很多年輕人也是高薪他低就所以很多年輕人覺得我事實上我可以領更高的薪水但是我為了我怕我領不到我找不到工作做所以我本來可以領3萬的薪水我可能2萬8就去做我領3萬我的薪水我可能3萬就去做所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14160.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14173.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我覺得在媒合的工作上還有包括在各個產業上跨部會的合作很重要你不能說我今天缺護理人員我護理人員下個階段我可能就要用移工政策來去補 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14175.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14190.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
這樣外界就會批評你就乾脆改名叫移民署就好啦所以部長我覺得你今天應該交代更新為什麼我說這個跟救安基金是聯動的如果說我們覺得護理人員很重要譬如我舉一個例子護理人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14191.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14209.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
如何讓護理人員願意回到職場生產完之後或者是休息一段時間之後願意回到職場我們救安基金怎麼樣可以做更多的補助跟使用我舉一個例子或者是照護人員或者是托育的保姆政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14209.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14222.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這些可能現在都缺工那缺工我們應該怎麼樣用這些救安基金教育也好後面的津貼長期在一段時間之後長期做更好的補助讓他們願意再回到職場上 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14224.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14242.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我覺得這個是救安基金短中長期你要不同的做法你才能說服社會大眾我今天我這個移工政策是確實不會衝擊到臺灣的這個勞工我覺得這才有辦法去說服大家否則人家會批評我勞動部變成移民署你同意嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14243.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14244.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
謝謝主席本席 邀請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14276.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14276.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
楊仁豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14306.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14320.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
對於個人認知,你不太可能會講出這樣子的話語。為什麼呢?說實在,我第一個,我先講,我沒有任何歧視的意思。那你腦中沒有歧視,怎麼會有講出這樣子的膚色? |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14324.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14350.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
因為印度移工引進那之前有些社會的疑慮那認為說彼此的適應融合那你講說他的膚色就不會疑慮嗎不是我是說彼此的適應融合的問題其實剛剛會講到這個是就是說當初只是說如何讓大家能夠盡快的促進融合跟適應所以才會有這樣的那個但我也講我也覺得說這個發言真的不是很吐司所以我也表示歉意那之後我也會對這些問題會更加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14353.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14377.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
好 這你也表示歉意我也希望他是一個語物啦不是頭腦裡頭的觀念這是絕對不可以那我們實質來討論因為目前我們就是泰國、越南、菲律賓跟印尼四個國家嘛引進外籍移工那這20年來呢我們可以說是首度簽訂第五個移工的來源國所以在這樣的一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14381.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14396.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這個情況之下本席要請教在2月16號我們以視訊方式來簽署了嘛簽署了這個MOU嘛那到底我們什麼時候可以引進這個這個印度移工那引進的額度跟他的專長到底是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14399.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14404.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
報告委員我們2月16視訊簽署2月26完整換文那接下來我們會請我們會報行政院來備查劉丞你們做本期要請問的什麼時候可以正式引進這個報告委員這個恐怕還沒那麼快因為我們後面還有工作成績還沒那麼快還沒那麼快沒關係我們還是要照程序走那到底會什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14428.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14452.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
有可能會進來?報告委,至少也要半年、一年,為什麼?因為這個工作層級﹖今年底可不可能進來?今年底我不敢預料,就是看後面的﹖為什麼本級會跟你討論這個議題呢?因為大家看到這個訊息,大家缺工,都很期待那你認為今年底不可能,明年可不可能? |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14452.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14472.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
明年是有機會啦明年是有機會也不一定因為就是要看那個工作沒關係我們就實質討論因為有要怎麼處理沒要怎麼處理嘛你不要讓產業一個期待最後是落空的這樣不好嘛所以今年底不太可能明年底有可能但是不知道什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14473.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14486.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
是不是這樣解讀﹖可以這麼說﹖可以到底是不是﹖是﹖是這樣解讀﹖那請問﹖你們現在預計可以引進多少移工﹖數額﹖報告委﹖數額還沒預計﹖數額還沒預計﹖那專長有沒有預估﹖專長有沒有預估﹖專長會看各頁的需求﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14501.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14513.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們會簽我們已經有自己的期待才有辦法談判嘛那你預估我們希望能夠在明年的時候有可能會引進你希望可以引進多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14514.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14531.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
數額上包括原額目前我也要經過大家跟跨部會討論之後那基本上原額我們一開始不會太多啦會小規模但是因為我說多少我現在就是先小額的引進啦小額是多少你這小額是小到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14532.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14555.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
要談,報告委員這個要談,這個不是我自己能夠決定部長你不用緊張,因為我們今天你一定緊張,因為你語射了,因為你要知道,我們要跟人家討論的時候,你跟人家有一個主張,不是你可以決定OK,這大家可以了解,但是你一定要有主張啊,你不可能你自己沒主張啊,我就是工作成績開完, |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14557.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14575.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我會有,大概了解,我會有確定﹖你主張你的小兒,你竟然可以回答一個小兒,小兒是多少啦?小兒是多少?現在我沒有辦法回覆這個問題﹖那你所謂的小兒的定義是什麼?我的意思是說,就不會是很大量的引進啊﹖你的大量是多少?你的小兒又是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14579.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14593.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
部長,你還是語射啦,我跟妳說,本期跟您討論,因為這件事都錄音錄影,大家很期待,所以大家期待,那我們也清楚,這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14595.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14614.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
聽清楚這個過程必須要去談判但是我方也必須要有自己的方案你才有辦法討論對不對你既然說出小兒小兒一定有你的數字當然你不願意說我也尊重你啦但是我要告訴你你工作會議要到什麼時候可以有一個方向出來你的工作會議要到什麼時候可以有一個方向出來工作會議現在沒有召開啊什麼時候要召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14625.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14630.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
就看印度方就看他,我們雙邊會去討論要開會的日期你這樣,我們本來期待很高,結果我們很失望沒關係,請你把你預估要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14644.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14669.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
請你詳實資料給本席,你的時間流程表請列出來好不好我再請一個議題給你做功課目前我們逃逸外勞的累計人數已經達到8萬人那請問勞動部你要怎樣防治逃逸的外勞你要怎麼去做,你的研議方案是怎麼樣因為你陸續第5個國家明年有可能會進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14670.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14687.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
那你必須也要也要預估我們現在的目前逃逸外勞已經有8萬人這個是顯性數字隱性我看更多對不對對啊就是這些啦就是這麼多啦報告委員我們先是去年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14689.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14707.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
討議人數有降下來了因為這幾年主要是疫情移工進不來供需失調所以111年的失聯率特別高5.96你既然了解這個目前的現狀討價的老闆很難過你要怎麼樣去防範請你詳細資料給本席好不好方案出來好不好這兩個議題你詳細資料給本席一個禮拜的之內請將剛才本席所要的資料這兩項給本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14722.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14740.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請吳思耀委員進行質詢好 謝主席有請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14744.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14745.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
請播放好嗎?可以播放嗎?好 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14759.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14777.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我想今天我聆聽了幾乎一整個上午其實事實上對於開放印度移工這個政策其實跨黨派的委員其實基本上都是站在支持的角度也許在作業的程序或者是未來精進的方案有提供了很多建設性的建議我們來 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14779.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14804.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
韓納然後來推進但是不管是今天委員的發言或者是這長期以來是在立法院跨黨派立委長期要求我國政府要針對外勞的這個來源國要努力想方設法去增加新的選擇新的選項所以總的來講這個政策方向我可以幾乎這樣說大家都站在Welcome |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14804.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14817.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
的方向跟角度但是呢對於快或慢的這件事情我想如果我們把問題意識定在我今天的主題就是國際搶人大戰的此時此刻臺灣蘇狼摩蘇丁的這一個攸關國家競爭力的問題意識站得住腳的話我想更可以有效的推進我們這個政策大破大立大步的往前走 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14834.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14859.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
就如同剛剛前一位楊瓊英委員她甚至是指叉沒拿著皮鞭叫你快快快對不對所以說印度移工can help確實台灣面臨一個國際搶人荒缺人荒的此時此刻我們就是要快點來走嘛所以這個問題意識如果導到國家競爭力我們不只跟時間賽跑我們更跟世界各國在競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14861.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14886.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
所以我要支持這個政策勇敢去做好下一頁那進入我的主題我可能時間沒有辦法講我其實有十幾頁的PPT但是我想藉這個時間也釐清一下有一些委員在詢問說這個政策是不是急救章感覺聽起來好像是昨天求婚求婚今天就結婚的感覺報告委我們其實有經過三年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14888.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14903.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
就我所瞭解跟掌握的資訊這樣一個跟印度的磋商從109年就開始談了談了3年多了所以絕對不是急救章快速的欠缺評估這個您要大聲講啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14905.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14926.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
第二個,我們現在的程序是簽了MOU,它就是一個異項書的簽訂、換文,未來的工作事項正要開始。我不曉得大家有沒有看日劇喔,這個日劇我是日劇迷啊,都會說,請你洪森漢,以結婚為前提,跟我交往好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14929.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14932.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個意思就是類似MOU就是我們有這個意象以結婚為前提我們來交往但是不是明天就結婚啊交往之後我們的生活習慣我們的價值觀我們的各項 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14946.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14964.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
方方面面 攸關人生大事 都是在這個交往的過程 要去慢慢推銷 也就是我把他用這個例子來換在這個事情 MOU只是just the beginning 雙方有這個意願 我們有以結婚為前提的交往的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14965.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14985.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
太沉重了但是但是未來你們要進行的工作會議而且謝謝各委員也是非常謝謝王玉敏教委今天排了這個專案報告提出了很多建設性的提醒未來擴大在工作會議的過程跟專家學者社福團體所有的stakeholders |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14986.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15011.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
的對話都要積極綿密的展開所以說他沒有急救章他也不是今天MOU明天就上路這個要對社會講清楚我們還有很充裕的時間包括您剛回答楊瓊英委員的今年底你可能都說的保守也許明年比較有可能換言之我們還有一年的準備期可以收攏社會各界更多元的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15012.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15038.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
第二個呢 這個政策的上路有不透明嗎?我們依據就業服務法裡頭只要是政策決定開放就要公告周知所以我們透過公告周知之後把這個政策即將上路就可以來彙聚大家對話的可能所以我認為如果有委員會誤會你們是不透明的政策跟決策我要替你們大聲的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15040.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15063.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
並非如此那當然也有委員提案說是不是這個政策到各縣市去開公聽會什麼的其實我翻閱了我們過去開放的其實是6個來源國啦我們的印尼、泰國、越南、菲律賓乃至於蒙古乃至於馬來西亞其實是沒有所謂什麼縣市公聽會的一來國跟國之間的這種涉外的事務本來就不會到縣市去開公聽會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15070.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15086.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
但是謝謝各委員共同的提案就是未來在這個工作會議在進一步落實的同時我們各個stakeholder大家要去對話這個非常非常的重要好因為我的PPT大概都沒時間講主席您可以坐下一下下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15087.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15098.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
循序漸進穩健務實好下一頁我講到中好這一頁我想講一下我們要清楚對外界來說明外籍移工的適用法規是一樣嚴格的過去的6個國家如此未來的印度亦然 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15105.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15134.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
開放印度移工並沒有放鬆任何現行的法規我們有7個法規要適用外國人就業管理條例、勞動基準法、外國勞動人力供應管理條例、就業服務法、全民健康保險法社會安全法以及外國工作者保險條例換言之我們是同樣規格在管控這個也要對社會說清楚講明白好下一頁好我就問最後這個題目好了好我回到最後一頁我的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15137.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15156.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
因為我長期加入教育文化委員會我對於印度移工就是低階人力嗎這樣的社會命題我一定要大大的為印度移工撕掉這個不合理涉及歧視的標籤去掉這個汙名化我監督的過去監督的部會其中一個叫做中研院 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15157.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15185.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
中研院就有超過300名的印度博士生在中研院工作我這裡秀出來的是中研院資訊科學研究所的一位印度的研究員他現在其實是一個網紅大家可以去看看他這個影片在台灣工作的1萬名印度人其實遍及台灣頂尖大學、工讀工程學、生物科學領域、碩博士甚至在業界都是最先進的高階人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15186.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15201.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
而且呢除了在學研機構在竹科或南港軟體工程的園區擔任工程師的印度精英人士大有人在所以我們臺灣是一個最包容最多元最擁抱 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15202.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15207.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
各國移民尤其是各種來臺灣就業創業的人我們是這樣一個偉大的包容的國家對於任何一個未來可能成為我們國家很重要的人力補給也好專業的協力也好我們都要給予臺灣人應當有的友善 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15221.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15241.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那謝謝主席給我多的時間因為真的時間很有限我希望這個政策透過更多元的對話啟動更專業的相關當事人的各項的研議的會議我們讓一個好的政策勇敢的上路阿您在社民進程也要大聲說這樣好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝吳斯堯委員接下來我們請洪森漢委員進行質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15261.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15264.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
主席好請許部長好請許部長黃委員好部長那個你先前受訪的時候我講到的這個談話 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15275.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15300.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
當然我們在媒體上面看起來有引起了一些風波但我必須說其實勞動部這幾年在推動職場友善或防治就業歧視的業務上面我自己是給予肯定的所以我自己也希望接下來勞動部的工作裡面可以繼續秉持過去在推動這個防治就業歧視的像這樣子的一個努力當然我也看到部長也道歉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15302.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15331.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那我其實想來跟部長討論的是今天關於印度移工的問題其實我想印度移工的議題從去年大家社會開始爭議之後如果仔細去看很多民間其實提出來的疑慮其實我自己觀察到這些疑慮其實這個輿論的風向其實有一些轉化這個轉化其實從一開始也許大家對特定的人種會有特定的一些看法不同的看法可是我覺得後面的討論其實我感覺其實大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15332.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15356.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
比較多針對的反而是臺灣的移工政策的制度根本的制度的問題大家有疑慮的反而是這件事情那現在臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工其實真的跟過去不太一樣我想我知道勞動部這幾年其實在這個政策上面其實遇到很多困難跟挫折其實我覺得有一個很大的原因其實是社會的期待跟過去其實不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15358.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15382.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我必須很誠實的說我覺得現在其實有很多關於移工政策最根本的原因其實是我們政府其實承擔的太少這個承擔的太少其實以至於其實有很多引進移工以後後面該擔的責任就落到僱主這一端僱主如果他擔不起他就會把這個責任希望能夠轉嫁給仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15384.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15384.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
主要我在想齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15413.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15424.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
因為在救福法的規定移工的照顧管理基本上是雇主的責任但我講這個不是說政府就可以免責所以政府應該在如何讓整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15426.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15447.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
部長我等一下會跟你討論這個問題但我要說的事情我其實可以舉幾個例子來跟你說其實現在很多僱主跟移工兩方其實都有一些抱怨跟不滿一個地方是我們在移工相關的業務上面的辦理其實行政上面其實是非常非常複雜的部長你有沒有自己親自辦過相關的業務自己親自 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15448.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15474.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我自己沒有提出申請走過但我是一直要求同仁簡化這個行政的手續不然我跟你說在這方面其實我們看到韓國其實已經全面數位化了其實我們臺灣也有派員去做韓國去做考察但到目前為止我們還是沒有做好這個簡化的流程跟統合數位化的程度還是相當低還有很多工作其實是沒有完成的我們臺灣現在移工的人數70幾萬人對不對75萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15477.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15500.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這麼多的人數如果我們業務還是用這個龐雜、複雜的方式在進行我們可以想像有多少行政成本必須花在這事情上面所以部長我第一個還是要要求至少就政府可以做的事情上面我們現在到底有多少的文書作業文件的程序其實是有空間可以整合、可以統合、可以簡化的這部分不能順應民眾不管是僱主端或者是移工端的要求嗎?可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15501.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15502.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
第二點我要說部長其實我們現在75萬1 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15519.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15544.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
移工在臺灣其實他遇到各種狀況我知道現在我們的勞發署或者相關各地行政這個地方政府其實有點疲於奔命也沒有辦法來去營運我舉一個例子給你聽這是一個陳情的案件來找我部長你可以看這是他寫給我們的陳情信這個情境是這樣家庭看護工他突然中風了怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15546.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15561.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我跟大家跟部長說不管是我們的僱主其實真的是無能為力的狀況部長看一下這封澄清信這是僱主寫給我們的僱主的爸爸中風所以他請了一個外籍看護來照顧這個爸爸後來移工中風了 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15562.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15581.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
所以他的仲介就跟僱主說最簡單不用擔責任的方法就是把這個移工丟回去他的母國就好了部長你同不同意這樣做你不同意對不對部長如果你不同意接下來他開始要來請求臺灣的政府相關的協助的時候對不起他求助無門 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15583.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15612.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
他去找地方的社會局地方社會局沒辦法給他幫忙找了勞工局勞工局沒辦法給他幫忙他說我爸爸就是一個中風的人我自己家裡的狀況也不好我要怎麼來去承擔這件事情對不起但是政府沒有給予相關的資源能夠讓他去處理所以我們變成是逼著可能逼著這個僱主你就必須用最廉價最簡單的方法把這移工直接丟回他的母國所以當然台灣可能就會承受在國際上面承受很大的罵名說把移工當作免洗塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15614.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15628.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
部長這就是我說的我們的政府對於責任的承擔太少了最後這個案例是我的辦公室一個一個打電話才把這些相關資源能夠串接起來但我們75萬名的移工每個事情都能靠立委辦公室這樣打嗎?部長你覺得呢?這個部分我們再來做一些檢討做一些制度的規劃看怎麼樣對一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15639.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15668.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
部長很明顯這些移工在臺灣除了勞動力提供以外他們還是一個人這個人有各種社會性的需求如果我們沒有辦法把這些需求有一個責任擔起來的話只是丟給仲介仲介用最廉價最低成本的方式來處理的話就會衍生很多社會的問題這些社會的問題就會現在讓大家可能看似對印度移工可是其實他不信任的是我們整體的移工制度所以造成的亂象跟憂慮的我覺得很部分的源頭就是來自於這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15669.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15684.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
所以部長這是我剛剛跟你說政府應該要在這裡面承擔更多的責任不是把責任丟給雇主一層一層的轉嫁下去這樣是沒有解的這樣民眾對於移工制度是不會有信心的遇到大大小小的問題也一樣會求助無門的 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15686.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15710.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
部長這是我希望我要請部長我時間不夠了但我要請部長是不是可以針對這個移工的在除了他勞動以外的社會資源的網絡我覺得我們應該有一個檢討跟規劃我們沒有這些支持的資源沒有支持的中心的時候這種事情一再的發生亂象就是會讓大家很有疑慮衍生這一次大家看到這相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15711.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15732.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
大家的不放心就是來自這個地方所以移工的引進的問題其實是一個配套跟管理的問題配套跟管理做不是只是在進來的那一剎那做而已而是移工進到這個社會以後他遇到大大小小的問題我們怎麼支持僱主跟移工來面對這些事情這是希望我們一個支持的網絡我希望部長跟勞發署 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15733.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15757.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我們兩個月的時間我們把相關的制度該檢討的部分尤其是應該要有一個支持移工跟雇主為支援中心的這樣支持中心的核心的理念去做相關的規劃好不好兩個月的時間不然我們狀況會一再的發生勞動部在移工引進的政策上就會一再的挫折一再的失敗一再的被檢討這不是我們樂意見到的好不好謝謝兩個月謝謝謝謝洪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15761.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15763.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
接下來我們請游浩委員進行諮詢謝謝召會,有請勞動部長許部長好,請部長游永浩 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15784.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15809.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
延續著過去我們的勞工立委吳裕仁委員他對勞工權益的一個關心那我也在這裡也向勞動部針對這次的一個專案我是希望部長就是我們您跟外交部對這件事情道歉但是我希望未來再引進這個印度勞工的話不要對我們國人或是本勞道歉那我想直接跟您就教好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15809.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15834.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
就是剛才像楊瓊英委員所提到的小額還目前來講有沒有針對這個數字可以想過之後再做一個回答現在我心理上還沒有確定因為要開過工作成績會議我才能夠得到的答案一直都是工作會議那我再接著就教一下部長目前來講在民進黨執政期間105年到113年移工人數大概增加了多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15836.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15861.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
一百零六到一百一十一百零六到一百一十三年這八年的期間移工增加了多少人大概增加了差不多有十萬有沒有差不多十萬左右我跟你講是十六萬人從五十九萬增加到七十五萬還既增加了十六萬人所以平均每年是增加了兩萬人那我想請教一下那在未來的四年會再增加八萬人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15863.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15888.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
目前的話就是說缺口啦齁這個產業的缺口那人數會不會增加這麼多當然就是靠到看到時候的狀況看到時候的狀況但是過去的8年增加16這個有增加但是其實委員那個疫情我是降低好沒關係但是總額是增加那所以說在你的小額的部分是有可能會增加逐年會增加到2萬人嗎如果產業有需求的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15889.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15907.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
報告委員不是這樣子就是說我們增加一個來源國是給雇主多一個選擇啦好那來源國這個跟那個人數增減沒有什麼太大的關係沒關係這個人數增減過去的8年增加16萬嘛那未來增加多少印度會增加多少現在沒有答案嘛這個增加的就是看我們產業缺工的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15907.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15934.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
好那沒關係那我直接跟您就叫產業缺工因為我禮拜一在質詢工程會的時候因為營建業相關的外勞的補充他們說那時候勞動部是沒有找主委這邊討論過如何國家重大工程要來去做這個補充勞動力的部分那當然本勞跟外勞是存在著競爭關係我們都知道那我想請教一下在這一次的印度勞工進來台灣是要補充的是哪一個類型的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15935.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15960.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
各個類型都有可能我們以開放的我再講說以開放的類型都有可能營造、製造、農業那我直接就就好了就是說那在長照的部分要不要市長普通回答一下在長照的部分是不是主要會針對印度的勞工來去補充看衛務部他們這邊的盤點人力的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15964.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15991.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
我們基本上就是目前比較需要充實人力的是在我們的住宿型機構那所以現在住宿型機構也配合勞動部這邊已經有修法放寬可以把護理人員都納入那現階段市長其實你們的業務報告全部都看完了那5月的我也看完了那在長照服務法104年5月三讀通過但是這個案子長照服務法則規約在立院擋了10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15992.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16010.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
他其實過去民進黨在野的時候他因為怕移工進入長照體系啊其實這個部分是那時候組黨的主要原因啊那我沒關係那目前來講的話移工如果要進入長照體系來去解決這個就是住宿型長照機構不足能力的問題那當然說要有整體規劃那我還是期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16013.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16032.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那如果說在這個部分還是要注重到本勞的權益不然目前來講在勞動部許多指訓的部分針對長照還有許多從學生培養到未來的住宿型的人力那實際上並沒有辦法有效的銜接那再用外勞來去補充的話那其實對於本勞來講尤其是學生來講又是一大衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16033.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16054.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那同時在這個日本來講他們在這個所謂的住宿型的這個人力啊長照人力來講他們日本的做的是不錯那所以說他們也不一定要再引用外籍那所以本席還是希望在引進這印度移工的部分啊那不僅是逃逸的部分還是要去做一個檢討因為目前失言勞工是8萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16055.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16055.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
來,請許部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16085.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16109.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好有請許部長許部長好直接就教產業我們現在要開放印度的這個移工來引進那產業現在到底缺工的狀況有多少產業的缺工現在都像製造業我們去年有做統計大概整個缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16111.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16114.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
23萬多全體產業全體你現在很簡單嘛你的報告裡面有講說製造業營造業缺工問題嚴重那你的問題嚴重有多嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16125.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16150.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
銀造業大概目前是2萬銀造業2萬製造業是7.4萬7.4萬銀造業2萬加起來是不是將近10萬對我們現在移工有總共多少人是75萬那其中你講的是說泰國籍6萬多但是你下面也講泰國因為經濟發展有減少移工輸出的趨勢所以我們泰國籍的移工是不是越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16151.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16169.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
會越來越少嗎?可能他覺得說泰國本地他們經濟也發展起來所以他們可能就回國嗎?對不對?或是說他可能有去其他地方嗎?所以你剛講的缺工有10萬人再加上泰國籍差不多6萬人也減少了所以是不是我們現在缺口至少有16萬人左右?至少10萬人以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16173.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16183.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
缺口?缺口大概10萬,我們現在調查的數字是這樣,我們都會滾動的去了解缺工的狀況本席就好奇啊去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16185.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16208.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
就有傳言是說勞動部要跟印度簽NOU引進印度的移工當時有講到是說有可能要引進到10萬移工那我們勞動部特地發文說這個是假消息假訊息結果不到兩個月的時間今年的2月就已經簽署了NOU後續還會再完成正式的締約 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16209.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16225.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那結果我們在看今天部長也證實了確實我們現在缺口就至少10萬以上沒有沒有那你還有什麼沒有你兩分鐘前才說兩件事情沒有關聯啦不是你先聽完我講的話部長本席現在就要問的是我是今年議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16225.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16247.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
本席現在要問的是你現在一直口口聲聲講是說我們要開放印度是給僱主多一個選擇對不對那僱主為什麼要多一個選擇就是因為原本的這些管道已經不足以他拿不到這些移工了嗎他沒有辦法引進這些移工了嗎如果說他可以引進這些移工的話你就不存在你所謂的10萬個缺口不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16248.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16268.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
報告委員我這麼講齁我們現在顧主他就現有的來源國他可以引進是但是我們這個是一個未雨綢繆的規劃啦齁因為就像剛剛講的這不是未雨綢繆這叫捕獲網部長因為你已經承認了你剛剛已經承認了我們現在缺口是10外 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16268.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16285.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
缺口的10萬那他要用本勞還是用外勞來引進這個都大家來努力啦那為什麼我們現在產業會有缺工10萬嘛這是您統計的本席都用您給的數字來跟您就教所以你現在告訴我是說我們為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16286.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16308.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
好這樣子為什麼那麼多的委員都會關心是說你現在開放茂蘭開放之後到底要多少你都講說沒有沒有這是NOU人數不知道人數我們會控管放心大家一定會把關好但重點就在於是說當我們就是有那麼多缺口的時候你是不是就要從這個地方要補足這個缺口否則的話我們國內的產業就是需要這些人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16309.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16313.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
MOU是開發新的來源國那你開發新的來源國的用意是什麼就是要補足缺口嗎不是補足那個缺口啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16327.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16349.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
MOU是這樣子我新增來源國就是讓僱主未來有多一個選擇然後不會讓我們太過依賴這些已經開放的這四個國家萬一如果哪一天它暫停或者不輸出那我們可能整個移工的來源會出問題那現在我們有掌握到哪一個地方它有可能暫停或不輸出嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16351.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16372.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
目前是正常但是我剛跟委員說齁所以主委你講的你講的狀況根本不存在部長你講的狀況根本不存在就剛剛我講的泰國泰國的營造工已經不太進來了本席現在講的是然後越南的經濟也慢慢上來我們也擔心以後如果他那邊的薪資條件各方面比較好他可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16372.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16386.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
委員長本席現在講的就是說這樣行政部門在一個多月兩個月前去年可以大動作的講是說這個是假訊息結果選完到一個月時間就簽了NOU所以說這根本就是有在談沒有簽但是是不是過完之後一個月就簽了沒有10萬但是你有10萬的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16393.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16421.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那個兩位是啦缺口那是主計總署的調查他是1月的調查我怎麼之前就會去這兩個部分是來來來這一件來來來部長您正要這樣講我們就再就教一下這是你今天給的報告3月6號勞動部給的報告你開宗明義第一章是什麼移工需求逐年增加那移工需求逐年增加尤其製造業跟營造業缺工問題嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16423.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16452.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那你缺工問題嚴重你自己寫的本席就要問你是說你的依據是什麼憑什麼會寫缺工問題嚴重嘛你嚴重到底是差了多少人所以說你剛剛就講就是10萬人嘛所以這就是根本的問題所在部長本席現在我們花了4分鐘部長本席花了4分鐘講了這些事情但是本席其實最重點是什麼重點是想要提醒你我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16453.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16453.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16455.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16482.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
到底我們的是本勞我們都不願意去做那些工作還是業者不願意再出更多的成本所以說要push你們這邊要進要有更多的移工管道因為本席都知道很多的營造業可能也都跟我們講是說現在馬來西亞或是東南亞一些國家他們的營造也起來了所以說甚至有很多東南亞國家他們也可能會選擇去其他的國家去做移工而不是選擇台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16483.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16501.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
就是他們認為是說那邊的這個薪資待遇也不錯所以我們到底是確實勞工還是廉價勞工那我們除了說只是開放有沒有未來再去提升整個勞工的一個待遇環境我最後講一點啦抱歉主席三四秒 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16503.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16523.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
剛臨時提案有提到是說要跟縣市政府這邊來溝通縣市政府有沒有準備好那剛剛有講到是說可能還不一定會做這樣的一個說明會但我想請教我們如果說真的有印度移工進來的話有沒有算過說哪些縣市政府會優先那些移工會比較去那些縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16526.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16541.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
這個 這個看到到時候雇主的選擇啊不是啊 我想問的是你其實很簡單你完全可以了解你只要做一個研究你去調查現在營造業跟製造業到底主要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16542.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16561.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
公城主要的施工環境在哪邊在哪幾個縣市那就看得出來哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重那既然哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重未來印度移工可以開放的話一定是那幾個縣市優先會去想要搶印度移工啊所以那幾個縣市是不是就重點應該先說明的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16563.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16588.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
如果說有些縣市他根本沒有那個工作就沒有那個工作需求他即便你開放100個國家他也不會有移工去嘛但是現在有一些縣市比如說新北市他可能重大的工程比較多相對你開放移工之後是不是有可能他的缺工問題嚴重所以他就比較有可能會去找移工進來那是不是新北市政府就應該要列為勞動部優先溝通的對象或是說明的對象這你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16589.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16598.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
可以啦 這個部分我覺得因為我們後續我們後續會跟到底哪個縣市報告委因為目的事業主管機關是在內政部營建署但是勞動部主管的就是這個相關勞動的問題所以這也是為什麼大家會問你嘛不是委員 我們是負責說 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16612.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16620.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
哪些行業要可以引進移工開發新的來源國那產業的缺工問題部長你們不是只是開放了一個之後後續的問題不管是社會問題相關水土不服適應問題或是等等的問題都丟給其他的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16628.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16639.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以這是為什麼本席才會講是說甚至你的問題有可能是丟給地方政府所以我們既然不要丟給地方政府是不是就應該勞動部先找地方政府來溝通看到底地方政府準備好或說地方政府說明會他們應該要事先做什麼準備來因應未來有可能進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16650.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16664.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
資訊會議報告委員我們資訊會議會邀請那包括我們的後續的工作層級會議各部會我們瞭解缺工狀況比如說如果我們能夠從營建署這邊知道說每個縣市部長最後一句話你什麼時候會開這個說明會資訊會議什麼時候會開三月要開過一次找了哪幾個縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16672.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16675.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
在開放印度移工前一定要開這樣可以嗎?可以啊 這沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16700.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16720.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
開放印度移工進來之前一定要跟縣市政府尤其是重點縣市政府開諮詢會說明會這樣可以這沒問題好謝謝部長好謝謝洪孟楷委員接下來我們請徐欣穎徐欣穎委員不在我們請蔡議委員進行諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16728.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16755.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
謝謝主席那我們是不是有請我們勞動部我們許部長好請許部長蔡委員好部長那事實上今天討論的包括印度移工未來是否開放那討論這些事實上就是為了要補足臺灣勞動力不足那臺灣的勞動力不足自然有很多因素那其中包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16758.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16779.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
臺灣人的就業的一個選擇也許我們現在漸漸臺灣人都比較排斥於比較屬於3K產業或者是比較勞力密集的那這部分可能需要移工來做一個協助但是我們在基層看到我覺得最主要有一個很關鍵的問題就是臺灣的失聯移工太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16781.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16805.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
施連移工很多所以事實上在講印度移工會怎樣我覺得未必主要還是問題出在施連移工那施連移工當然這個是另外部會但是部長你有沒有去思考一個問題就是說你們到底是希望來台灣的外勞人數移工人數越來越多還是希望我們可以有效的補足台灣勞動力不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16808.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16823.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
你們的目的是什麼就是補足勞動力我想大家都是這樣的想法那如果在這樣的想法的一個推演之下我感覺就像我今天標題寫的啦你們為什麼不能同意外勞去兼差啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16826.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16844.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
為什麼?因為比如說農業缺工,農業缺工是直接性的,他可能幾年他就去購物,他就一購物,幾年沒贏而已,所以你要請所謂的農業團體,除非他是畜牧業,你說農業團體他真的缺工啊,他過去我們世漢的時候,我們很多阿嬤是不是都在台北 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16849.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16870.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
阿台北就是小孩在考柔順嘛阿現在都沒人要考柔順啦所以現在農業在做柔順欸就沒人要考柔順他就需要可是他的問題他的時間點他不是每年嘛那如果我們可以順勢的讓他補足說好讓一些移工他去兼業阿因為移工他的目的來台灣他也是要給錢我錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16873.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16897.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
他們來台灣他們對他們說有時候休假不是他們目的他們想在台灣短時間內趕快賺錢然後趕快回到他們自己的國家所以站在不管是人權的一個立場不管是解決我們移工勞動力的問題我們就有效的管理他們去兼業至於可以兼業的範圍可以去兼業的時間你們再訂辦法就好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16898.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16927.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
部長這一塊不能去思考一下嗎這個可能要整個再重新再檢討一下因為這個牽涉到修法啦然後基本上當初當初有一些就是一些考量包括僱主還有現業還有包括對現業是一個嘛所以他們監獄也是要符合事件就是說這都可以去設計沒關係就是說我們不用去自我拘束然後一直在這個問題裡面一直在那邊循環沒辦法解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16928.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16949.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
事實上有很多的缺工對不對他真的就是低時間的他有一點像是他外勞去賺外快的概念可是你這一塊如果解決了你就解決了有很部分的一部分的缺工問題當然不是專報啦這個因為我們現在是單一雇主啦就是要雇主同意阿阿你現在來對這就是要雇主同意包括職責責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16950.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16972.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
這些勞基法都有整套的就是說好實在認定到底怎樣算是工作場所的一個轉換我覺得都做勞基法有規定只是他沒辦法把這一套法令我們都一直害怕把它放在移工上會不會產生問題事實上這個你們都有辦法你們只要把辦法定出來然後落實管理那又解決一塊問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16973.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16999.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
而且這塊的問題對於農業有扎實的幫助．比現在推動外展．比現在你做特定的農業．然後他們去合作社．然後去大家去撬開．我撬一個位阿寧．我就撬一個位．結果我看起來我問很多地方就撬不出來．解決農業移工後來就做一個．就只能解決在那個．那個畜牧業因為幾年幾年沒贏的．剩下的就是很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17001.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17004.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
我們與其再去想開放還不是去想有效的解決辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17006.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17035.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
這補充 我覺得你可以好 我再請業務單位這邊然後我第二個這個是我們也比較基層有時候說我們營造業我們有開放但是我們有要求他們有一個他們承攬工程的金額上限這個金額我不知道怎麼算但是如果以我們嘉義縣來說我們一年超過兩億甚至一億以上的公共工程是沒有那麼多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17037.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17040.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
沒那麼多叫沒那麼多我也變成說這一套我們這樣開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17042.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17044.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
我認為這個移工這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17069.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17071.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
主席有請部長好請許部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17099.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17120.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
羅文好部長在有關於開放印尼移工的這個問題上印度移工這個問題上那實際上外界很關心的就是說我們過去的失聯的這個移工的狀況我想請問你在政府的努力之下我們的失聯移工的狀況有改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17121.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17137.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
報告委員在疫情前其實已經有降低可是疫情之後因為整個供需失調因為邊境管制移工進不來我們在111年的時候這個整個失聯率飆升到5.96所以那一年失聯人數有4.1萬我來問您數字好了2013年1月我們的失聯移工總數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17146.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17151.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
2013喔對2023年1月2023我跟你講啦80643人那2024年1月是多少一年以後多少我告訴你是85947人所以嚴格來講失聯移工的問題是越來越嚴重你光這一年的差別你就增加了5304人 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17176.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17195.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
因為他進來的人數多啦我們應該看失聯率好沒關係我也知道單一期間來講你可能會有意見那我要講從蔡英文政府上來之後就是2016年5月上台至今失聯移工的人數一共增加多少人你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17198.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17200.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
2016年5月是51733人2024年1月是85947人 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17207.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17232.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
所以總共增加了34214人私聯移工在這8年增加的數字是1.66倍所以外界為什麼今天對於所謂的我們的印度移工今天的問題會跟私聯移工有那麼大的一個關切關切就是對政府我們的私聯移工的政策的處理的狀況沒有信心嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17233.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17257.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
報告委員這應該這麼說啦我想印度引進新的來源國跟這個失聯的這是兩個議題你怎麼會算是兩個議題呢事實上你源頭是移工進來我們當然不反對移工進來啦可是問題是如果政府今天效能不夠你倒下水龍頭我們今天一個水盆需要水在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17257.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17278.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
你水龍頭一直開但是你一直漏水啊移工一直進來但是你一直在失聯移工一直在增加我剛剛在講說因為主要是三年的疫情導致供需失調所以我們現在已經慢慢的有一些措施希望能夠把這個失聯率降低數字看起來你就是增加1.66倍啊所以我是要勉勵你 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17279.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17301.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
你要開放移工可以但是呢你的失聯移工做得讓大家這麼沒有信心我只是覺得你進來以後你是不是如果政府效能不夠你會讓失聯移工的問題更嚴重啊這才是我們今天關切的問題當然我也覺得說今天我們不要去歧視任何的國籍種族的移工那所以此 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17302.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17329.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
但是失聯移工所引發的問題這個部分就本身還是要解決．是 這個我們一定要來面對那接下來你覺得你們已經做好萬全的準備來去開放印度的移工嗎報告委員 我們現在MOU是雙方有這個合作的意向我講一點 我只要講一點問您準備要充足啦那請問部長 印度最主要使用哪兩個語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17332.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17355.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
你看你也不知道印地語跟英語啦那憲法當中他們有多少語言憲法規定的附表的語言有多少有22種那我想請問部長報告裡說臺灣能包圓多元文化那我想請問你已經準備好包容印度的多元語言了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17356.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17384.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
報告委員我們現在初期我舉個例子這最現實你知道司法院特約通譯名冊裡面有涵蓋到任何一位印度語言的通譯嗎我告訴你雖然分類裡有印地語跟烏爾都語但是目前都查無通譯我只舉一個例子進來以後簽一法動全身希望我們的部長能夠做好萬全準備協調部會做好萬全準備以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17386.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17392.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
好 我們謝謝羅志強委員的質詢接下來我們請陳穎委員進行質詢謝謝主席 我們請那個發展署蔡署長好 來 蔡署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17411.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17423.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衛生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17427.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17442.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17444.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17466.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17467.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17492.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
那也因此造成我們許多民眾的討論跟關注那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17495.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17522.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17524.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17551.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17553.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17569.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
所以初步的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公佈了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17570.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17590.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些資訊我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17594.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17612.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17616.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17641.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17641.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17645.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
我還記得那個時候的移民署的署長也就是這個前台北市警局的這個邱鋒光署長他那時候績效比現在好很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17666.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17671.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
因此我們實際的逃逸人數絕對不是我們現在看到的這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17673.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17694.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17701.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17716.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17717.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17743.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
外籍勞工跟委員報告齁其實我們每一年這個逃役本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較之下會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高齁整個人數阿這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17743.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17757.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17758.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17779.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬人那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17780.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17793.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17796.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17825.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17826.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17830.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17845.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17866.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17869.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17895.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17897.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17903.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17904.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17928.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
那不回來他也不會留在台灣阿那也不會產生說更多的就是之後的這個社會問題嘛那我們台灣政府也不用再花更多的人力還有經費去處理我們國內這個外籍勞工逃逸的問題嘛所以這個就是之前這個修法前修法後的一個很大的差異提供給你參考阿謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17929.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17953.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17954.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17975.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17979.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17981.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
發展署支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作? |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17997.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18022.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18023.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18052.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
也期許說勞動部未來對於這個新聞的回應可以快速掌握核心的問題那同時可以加強這個逃逸的控管然後還有剛剛很重要的提醒改進這個安置衍生的問題謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝陳英委員的質詢接下來我們請核心城核心城核心城委員不在王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18053.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18078.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在徐巧欣徐巧欣徐巧欣委員不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在本日會議詢答全部結束委員王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18083.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18100.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
好那剛剛有一個靈體這個本席提出來的靈體文字修正這個已經通過就是已經送給那個議事人員那就按修正的文字通過本席也已經有連署好那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18101.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18119.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
第三案通過現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會 |