| IVOD_ID |
15691 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15691 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-05 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-05T09:23:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-05T11:44:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:20:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ef433c4436aef68723e9b95427c8377273be8d109af184be4d743b0e6d1f5d8b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-05T09:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理（事由：從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:23:08 - 11:44:00 |
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各位同仁 各位同仁好今天很感謝各位同仁來參加今天的講習課程我們今天很榮幸邀請到中央研究院歐美研究所焦新凱 今天研究員來為我們講授從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理現在請同仁以熱烈掌聲來歡迎我們焦研究員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
444.017 |
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448.419 |
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我們立法院有一個小禮物想送一下交研究員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
474.352 |
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474.912 |
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法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
504.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
528.064 |
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崩頸神經因為性騷擾的防治是一個非常重要的我們國內對這個問題的重視那我今天看大家很熱心的來參與我也很高興我首先跟大家做一個簡單的自我介紹其實我有一個很不好的外號大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
529.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
529.702 |
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性騷擾達人性騷擾專家性騷擾專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
546.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
546.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
《性騷擾三法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
564.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
569.766 |
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我今天為什麼我很不幸被人家有這樣的一個外號因為我到目前為止大概處理了400多件400多件發生在各個場域的性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
593.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
608.681 |
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那今天來跟大家談最主要是跟大家跟大家的工作領域有關可是我看到今天大家的年齡層大家年齡層也有人做了爸爸媽媽了所以我們的小孩我們的小孩可能在學校裡讀書 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
610.542 |
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632.175 |
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他萬一碰到這些問題怎麼辦今天有很多男性的朋友來參與很多人說我也不會性騷擾別人別人也不會性騷擾我我來上這個課幹什麼不要忘了您的太太您的女朋友您的比較年輕的小孩他可能走在馬路上他去唱KTV |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
632.955 |
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650.348 |
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他可能去看醫生或者說甚至很不幸的他會被恐怖群人所侵擾在這種情形之下我們今天的課程雖然講是講工作場所可是因為我們台灣一共有四個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
651.289 |
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675.666 |
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我們一般講我們有三個法律其實我們有四個法律前年的六月一號有一個跟蹤騷擾防治法所以我們台灣有四個法律所以我今天藉由我處理這些案例的經驗來跟大家來做分享來做分享那我今天的課程大致上會分成五個部分五個部分第一個是談一談到 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
679.368 |
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702.693 |
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這個禮拜五以前我們現在有的法制其實台灣的法制是非常進步的我個人對這個問題研究了30多年我發現全世界沒有一個國家像台灣這麼重視性騷擾的問題一共制定了四個法律那我會跟大家稍微談談這四個法律的情形然後這一次的修正其實跟大家沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
704.213 |
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718.349 |
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沒有關係主要我們還是在聚焦在立法院裡頭你們身為立法院的一份子立法院要提供一個什麼樣的免遭性騷擾的工作環境給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
719.37 |
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736.477 |
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萬一發生了這個事情的話我們希望用立法院的按照現在的法制用立法院的內規來把它處理掉而不要到外頭去我們這次的修正大部分是聚焦在外面的機制怎麼來處理那大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
737.974 |
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752.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
萬一立法院發生這些只要到外部的機制去現在我剛剛講了我們數大招風現在網路那麼發達壓也壓不住一傳出去只要一到外頭去一到外頭去我個人的經驗無解 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
754.045 |
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778.82 |
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而且傷害都造成各位只要在電視上看到我們的被害人戴個漁夫帽戴個墨鏡戴個口罩在電視面前哭訴他被性騷擾不愉快地進行這次大家從密度裡就看到了後面站一個兇巴巴的民意代表前面一大堆媒體在那邊問了有東沒東這種案子都無解傷害都造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
779.693 |
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806.411 |
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我們最好的辦法就是在立法院利用立法院的內規利用國家把這個性騷擾的防治交給你們的院長你們的副院長你們的秘書長還有所有的負責行政的事務的所謂的僱主的手上因為這個法律非常重要它是科僱主的法律責任立法院今天如果發生性騷擾院長副院長要負責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
808.387 |
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812.77 |
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《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
829.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
851.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
立法院要怎麼保護大家怎麼提供一個免遭性騷擾的工作環境給大家然後個人要怎麼因應我剛剛講了很多人認為說我都沒有這個問題可是你的家人、你的朋友都會碰到而且各位在立法院服務嘛出了這個事情在社區裡頭你總是一個有頭有臉的人物他們會來請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
853.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
853.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
883.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
888.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
909.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
919.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
裡頭沒有監視錄影器沒有錄音筆 什麼都沒有就他們兩個人隔了幾分鐘以後這個女孩子走到您的面前 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
921.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
946.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
走到您的面前因為您平常在職場上比較熱心他是認為您是一個可以信得過的大哥大姐他走到您的面前跟你怎麼說呢大哥大姐我平常到長官的房間裡頭都沒有事可是這次出事了你就問他發生了什麼事他說我到他房間以後他跟我聊了有的沒的他突然跟我說我的電腦有點問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
949.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
964.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你們年輕人都比較懂電腦可不可以幫我fix一下我完全無憂他我就上去幫他調這個電腦照理說我幫他調電腦的時候他應該站在我的旁邊跟我說哪個地方有問題結果他站在我後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
965.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
979.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
站在我後面從後面來跟我指說哪個地方有什麼愈靠愈近愈靠愈近我都覺得已經超乎了一個應該有的距離他以前不會做這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
980.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1009.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以我很不曉得應該怎麼辦好我不曉得怎麼辦後來我終於鼓起勇氣來鼓起勇氣來回頭看他一下他想做什麼想知道他做什麼結果沒想到我回頭的時候他就俯身下來要我對我做進一步更不禮貌的動作我趕快把他推開然後趕快跑出來走到你的面前問你說大哥大姐我該怎麼辦我們看看這次MeToo的事件我們的當事人說沒有證人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1011.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1033.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有證據啊沒有監視錄影器啊我也沒有帶錄音筆就是你跟我兩個人人家會相信我嗎更重要的是有人會問我我會說你剛剛講的事情到底有沒有發生啊有沒有發生啊今天我就利用上課在下一節課跟大家來解構這個迷思 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1034.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1060.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們對性騷擾越沒有迷思我們越容易保護我們自己更重要的性騷擾是一個待會跟大家分析它是一個助人的事業性騷擾的被害人是很悲慘的可是行為人也有可憫之處這次的MeToo的事件我處理了蠻多非常非常好的行為人 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1062.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1086.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們調查委員會問他說你來自這麼一個好的家庭你看看你出事了你的小孩還寫卡片給你說爸爸我們支持你或什麼我們看到你的家庭那麼好你太太那麼支持你你從這麼好的學校畢業你在這麼好的公家部門服務你前途勢緊啊你是人生勝利主啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1087.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1110.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
可是你為什麼會跑到捷運站去拍人家的群體風光你為什麼在別人上洗手間的時候拿個手機進去偷拍我們不懂啊我們調查委員不懂為什麼會做這個事他怎麼 通常這些被害行為人怎麼會跟我們說委員 調查委員 我的壓力太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1111.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1132.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我不曉得怎麼排解壓力所以徐維仁如果今天發生在立法院他也是我們的同仁他也有需要幫忙的地方所以我會跟大家來做這樣的一個分享大家看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1135.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1162.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
十年前被NONO欺負﹖我不講是什麼人講到人家會保留法律追訴權﹖或者說二十年前我被一個白人反過來的一個人壓在床上當時只有我們兩個人我講什麼東西不可能他用倚頌指棒我要怎麼去我待會會跟大家講要解構迷思解構迷思 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1163.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1176.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們現在來看看我們台灣在禮拜五以後以前的法制是什麼東西其實這些法制是非常好的它為我們新的修法奠定了非常好的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1178.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1197.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
跟大家比較有關的是什麼?職場的性騷擾職場的性騷擾今天上課最重要的重點職場的性騷擾其實規定的非常的簡單在我們的性別工作品現在叫做《性別平等工作法》在我們的《性別平等工作法》裡頭只有第三章裡頭只有兩個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1200.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1223.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
只有兩個條文 它告訴我們什麼發生在職場的性騷擾只有兩種不是我們一般講的男的騷擾女的女的騷擾男的或者同性的性騷擾或者說對性別上的少數者的騷擾或者什麼東西 不是的他說發生在職場上各位你們服務的地方的性騷擾有兩種一種叫什麼 一種叫做交換式的性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1225.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1251.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
什麼叫做交換式的交換有生殺大權的長官對下屬用信來做交換條件你要取得這個職位要保有這個職位要在職位上不會受到不利的對待拿信來做交換最簡單的例子我的學生常常講哎呀老師不要講什麼交換式this or that講到我聽不懂最簡單的例子就是董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1253.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1256.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
如果在民營企業的話董事長對著無助的女秘書說 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1258.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1282.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你要答應我嘿嘿否則就是嘿嘿大家都曉得我講的什麼意思嘿嘿其實是我發明的後來對我的學長盜用變成嘿嘿嘿三個嘿可是還是跟性騷擾有關係跟性騷擾有關係所以叫做交換式的性騷擾可是這一次從交換式的性騷擾我們又衍生出利用詮釋的性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1284.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1310.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個跟立法院絕對有關係今天來上課﹖很多都是立法院﹖立法委員的助理如果你的老闆騷擾你就是利用權勢性騷擾利用權勢性還有一個呢﹖跟大家更有關係的是什麼叫做敵意的工作環境什麼叫做敵意的工作環境沒有生殺大權的長官科長、股長他只有建議權同事 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1313.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1336.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
你服務的地方皇帝皇后辦公室的那一批郎這個叫做對把你的工作的場所的氣氛變成一個敵意冒犯的環境還有呢下屬騷擾長官大家說下屬可能騷擾長官嗎我要跟在座講總統府有少校騷擾上校 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1338.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1362.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
對不對 下屬敢騷擾長官 對不對人多膽子大嘛 人多膽子大還有什麼呢 服務的對象 跑到立法院來騷擾你我們曉得立法院是一個非常非常公開的場所 公共的場所很多人都可以進來 廠商或者什麼都進來騷擾了我們的員工還有呢 我這個完全不相干的第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1363.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1386.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
今天跑到立法院來演講跑到你們的女生廁所去偷窺影響到你們的工作權影響到工作權那你們如果騷擾來接洽業務的人這個不是職務的行為我們國內還有其他的法律叫《性騷擾防治法》我待會跟他講所以我們最重要是兩個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1390.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1413.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第二個我們這個法律裡頭的認定對性騷擾的認定工作場所性騷擾的認定是對所有情況的綜合判斷所有情況的綜合判斷有人問我說我就舉你們可能最近在電視上看到的消息管媽你們都知道我講的是誰嗎管媽摸了那個記者的臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1415.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1432.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
對不對 夠不夠整性騷擾有人會問我 我只看到新聞報導我沒有看到全部的情況為什麼 因為我們性騷擾的認定不是單單摸那一下子的去判定那個東西我們要判定什麼 你們彼此之間的關係是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1434.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1451.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你們彼此之間的關係是什麼管媽平常的作為是什麼然後更重要的今天來上課第一個大家務必要記住的一點所有的性騷擾都是以被害人的觀點來處罰所有的性騷擾都是以被害人的觀點來處罰他不可能用行為人的觀點來處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1460.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1474.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個是性騷擾的第一個鐵律不管在發生在任何的場域裡頭所有的性騷擾都是被害人的觀點他可能是女性以目前來講絕大部分都是女性他也可能是男性像這個管媽的這個事件他是男性啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1476.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1491.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他也可能是性別上的少數者我們今天談性騷擾不只是要談主要的兩性還要把性別上的少數者LGBTQ也要談進去我想順便問問我們立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1495.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1496.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
同志戰台灣總人口多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1519.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1543.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
有沒有人可以給我一個答复那你們今天來上課非常幸運以前我不知道臺灣有多少同志後來30多年前我去參加在臺北參加一個國際研討會親耳聽到臺大城鄉研究所的夏祝久老師跟外國學者說根據他的估算同志佔我們臺灣人口2%到3% |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1547.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1571.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我聽了懵點頭因為夏老師自學非常嚴謹他跟同志社群有一定的連結所以他講的數字應該是可靠他說估算後來我還把這個數據去問了他的死對頭畢恆達老師畢恆達老師說那個傢伙雖然很討厭但是做詢問是很認真的所以他講的數據應該可靠所以我都是用這個後來我又認識一個王雅各老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1572.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1584.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
台北大學的,他現在到美國去了我問他,他自學很嚴謹,我問他說根據你研究,同志在我們台灣人口多少?他跟我說,百分之五到百分之八 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1585.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1614.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我聽了覺得有點高估有點高估可是我兩岸並塵後來我到大陸去參訪那個時候大陸氣氛沒有現在那麼的那麼的肅殺肅殺什麼問題都可以問我就問大陸的學者說我們台灣怎麼都問不問都問不出來我想知道你們大陸到底有多少同志我本來以為他們答不出來結果沒想到我問的人從南到北從小地方到大地方全部跟我說六千九百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1615.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1628.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我嚇死了我說你們的社會調查做得這麼好啊怎麼每個人都喇喇上口我回來以後覺得怪怪的回來一看回來以後才發現他們講的六千九百萬是中國共產黨的黨員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1631.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1657.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
原來他們的同志跟我們的同志不太一樣大家不要笑大家不要笑根據美國CIA的估算現在中國大陸有9900萬的同志中國共產黨是全世界同志最多的國家後來4年多以前我到福建去不死心啊現在已經有點壓力了可是不死心還特別問他們說你們大陸到底有多少同志我講的同志是LGBTQ |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1659.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1682.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
不是你們中國共產黨的黨員結果沒想到所有的學者都跟我說兩千五百萬我說怎麼會出去差這麼多他說我們現在中國大陸越來越開放我們的社科院根據網路上的資料做個研判中國大陸大概有兩千五百萬的LGBTQ後面還吃了我一個豆腐比你們報導總人口還多 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1685.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1710.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
各位我們臺灣到底有多少同志我服務的地方中央研究院每十年會做一個重大社會邊界的告訴我們告訴我們同志佔我們臺灣人口百分之五百分之五多不多百萬眾百萬之眾我剛剛講了我們臺灣對同志是很有善的其實實際上不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1711.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1726.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我跟大家分享一個經驗我的兩個小孩去參加同志大遊行回來以後戴了個彩虹口罩跟我打賭說Daddy你敢戴這個口罩一整天我們一個人給你一千塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1728.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1742.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我因為我這輩子從來沒拿過他們的錢啊所以不息息的就戴了彩虹的口罩只戴了一天我嚇死了我在南港那邊南港高工的男學生在後頭怎麼叫我死老GAY |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1744.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1763.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
然後這個中華科技大學的學生在公車上講老玻璃害得我趕快把口罩拿下來我們表面上是同情或者怎麼樣實際上我們是非常歧視的所以我們今天講到性騷擾對同志的騷擾也包括在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1764.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1780.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
你每天問他說你辦一號辦零號啊你死人邀啊你男人婆啊娘娘腔啊不男不女啊都構成性騷擾我們台灣的制度是非常進步我們要看所有的情況個人的感受摸人家的臉夠不夠成性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1781.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1808.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
各方面社會的評價什麼我要做那個不是那個時候發生這樣的一個行為我們去做判斷是不是構成性騷擾那神仙都做不到對不對神仙都走我們要到所有的情況我待會後面還會跟大家談那更重要的我們的制度是什麼科顧足法律責任大家都因為我參與這個法律的制定我非常了解我們台灣當初制定性騷擾的時候就是引進美國的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1809.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1836.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
怎麼講呢?科僱主的法律責任他要僱主提供一個免遭性騷擾的工作環境給所有的受僱者如果沒有做好,罰僱主國家不罰行為人但是我們這一次的修正國家開始罰行為人待會兒我講最高負責人這個是好是壞馬上見真章馬上見真章馬上見真章那僱主的責任是什麼?防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1837.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1861.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
以前規定只有防治兩個字而且沒有罰則後面我會講我們修正以後有罰則了而且防治不是那麼簡簡單單就大家來上個課就叫防治就叫防治待會會跟大家講第二個三十個人以上要有內部申訴七次立法院今天來上課一看就曉得超過三十個人服務的對象也超過三十個人我想問今天來上課的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1862.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1878.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
知道立法院有處理性騷擾的內部申訴機制跟內規的朋友請舉手不多喔 請放下 不多其實立法院的制度是非常好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1879.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1899.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
非常好,我待會講,組織怎麼用這樣的一個方式來保護大家提出申訴以後,不會受到不利的對待,不會被報復,不會被什麼東西等等所以,雇主要有內部申訴處理機制第三個,知悉以後要採取立即有效的糾正跟補修措施這個問題就來囉,知悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1903.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1925.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我知道了我們這個工作場所發生的性騷擾我要採取必須有效的就職那自息從什麼管道自息有人說要提出申訴以後才自息我跟在座的各位講在這個法律還沒有修正以前我們已經把自息僱主自息的這個義務定的非常大我隨便舉個例子好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1926.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1949.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
今天你們服務的地方突然接到一個匿名的檢舉信匿名的檢舉我們一般叫做黑函叫做黑函上面寫什麼呢某某人上班的時候喜歡開黃腔喜歡毛手毛腳下面沒有署名以前我們的觀念是什麼公家機關不處理黑函 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1950.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1960.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為它妨礙同事之間的和諧但是現在不行了以前也不行了有這個法律以後因為你資金了你是人事單位嘛你收到了這樣的一封信 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1961.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1986.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
收到這樣一封信 要不要處理以前說丟在垃圾桶裡 現在不行了有這個法律以後就不行了那要不要組一個調查委員來調查誰寫這個黑函啊誰處理這個東西 沒有必要為什麼 大炮打小鳥嘛這個時候最重要什麼 以前呢我們會叫僱主做什麼呢人事單位把這個黑函上的主角找來 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1987.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2003.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
找到一個僻靜的地方不要大張旗鼓找到一個僻靜的地方旁邊做一個行政人員然後把這個黑函拿給他看最近啊單位裡頭收到這樣的一封信說你上班的時候喜歡開黃腔喜歡毛手毛腳有沒有這回事沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2004.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2026.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
沒有最好 我不能憑一個黑函就辦你可是現在國家很重視性騷擾的問題我已經知悉了 我已經知道了國家現在非常重視性騷擾我現在跟你講不能再辦這樣的行為然後這個黑函會放在你的人事資料裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2027.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2049.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
一年到一年半之內這是選美國的做法一年到一年半之內如果沒有事情這個黑函自動消失可是如果一年到一年半真的發生了這個黑函的事情我們一起算賬我們一起算賬然後呢旁邊不是說一個行政人員嗎把行政人員寫的會議記錄拿給他看請你在這個會議記錄上簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2052.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2056.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2067.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2072.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理． |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2090.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2113.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我窒息了以後那我們再罰僱主 大家說僱主很難為啊那麼多人我還要管這麼性騷擾這些事情可是我們給僱主一個免責的抗辯萬一這個被害人受不了了這個去告覺得僱主沒有好好地處理這個事情把僱主抓進來負連帶民事賠償責任的時候這個時候僱主可以站出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2115.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2138.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我有舉辦訓練的課程我有防治啊我連黑函都處理我要免責的抗辯我們固然給雇主非常重的義務但是呢如果雇主做得好我們也給雇主一個免責的抗辯各位你們來的時候我特別注意到你們都在外頭畫押了嘛不簽名啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2140.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2159.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
為什麼立法院這麼慎重因為我們是科顧主責任哪一天立法院發了事情的時候一看這裡頭有某某人性騷擾什麼人你們的院長或者秘書長把你們找去的時候你就裝得很innocent的樣子我不曉得什麼叫性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2160.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2179.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你們的秘書長或院長打開資料說3月5號上午9點半到11點半你上了教某人的課聽說他的外號叫性騷擾專家結果你上了半天的兩個小時的課還不知道什麼叫性騷擾顯然上課的時候沒有好好聽最佳一等 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2180.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2204.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
為什麼這麼做?你們都在那畫押你們的院長可能沒機會跟大家耳提面命可是他透過我的嘴巴跟今天來上課的所有的人講得非常清楚就跟廁所裡頭,你們如果有機會去參觀男生廁所在廁所裡頭就面對的那個就是立法院對性騷擾是採取零容忍的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2205.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2230.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
今天已經跟大家擺明講清楚了你們今天都在那邊畫押了一個也跑不掉一個也跑不掉僱主的法律責任僱主的法律責任還有公駕那個我就不講了我們罰僱主罰僱主這個是《性騷擾三法》的性別平等工作法為什麼要修正除了MeToo嘛那修正的方向是什麼校園 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2232.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2253.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
各位我剛講的我們有四法我剛講的是職場的性騷擾現在我們來講一下性別平等教育法我想今天在座的很多的朋友你們有在教育界服務過我想問今天在座的朋友認為校園的性騷擾所謂校園的性騷擾沒有修正之前是什麼呢校長 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2257.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
2279.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
老師職員跟工友對學生還有學生相互兼他的對象是非常特定的我想問今天來上課的朋友各位我看很多年輕的朋友可能剛剛才從學校畢業我想問你們根據我們對校園性騷擾的定義你認為性騷擾在我們台灣是一個嚴重問題的朋友請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
2285.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
2302.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
校園還是有些朋友舉手我因為請放下因為我在學校擔任兼任老師所以不知道學校等到我開始處理校園性騷擾的案例以後我才悚然發現校園是一個非常非常嚴重的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
2304.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
2316.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
嚴重校園的性騷擾但是呢我們台灣的法律台灣的法律對校園的部分是全世界做得最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
2317.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
2337.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
今天來上課的朋友如果對性騷擾感興趣我勸大家去看《性別平等教育法》的第四章包括它修正後的條文還有它的防治準則全世界最進步的立法因為老師在我們的社會裡頭有特別的地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
2338.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2366.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
老師被指控性騷擾我待會在下節課會跟大家講解構迷思的時候會跟大家講老師被指控性騷擾很難翻身很難翻身所以我們的《性別平等教育法》設計的不管是調查委員的選任調查程序的進行還有調查報告的撰寫都有一套SOP這一次三法的修正全部是往《性別平等教育法》去靠攏 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2367.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2393.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那我們臺灣很不幸啊待會兒會跟大家講校園的性騷擾我們臺灣以前只要制定跟性別有關係的法律都是要出人命的都是要出人命的然後這一次這個校園的性騷擾的案件也是為什麼會制定性別平等教育法就是一個玫瑰少年大家都曉得一個可能在立法院的同仁可能比我更了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2395.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2405.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
一個男生他在讀小學的時候他發現他實際上是一個女生活在一個男性的軀殼裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
2406.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
2427.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
可是他那時候還沒有發育所以他只覺得不安但是呢等到他讀國中的時候他的夢魘就來了我們很難想像一個國中三年級的男生到學校去讀書最大的最辛苦的事情去上洗手間為什麼他只要去上洗手間 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
2428.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
2449.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
後面就有七八個同班的﹐或者說其他班上的﹐比他高壯的同學﹐他比較陰柔﹐把他推進去﹐然後在裡頭對他拳打腳踢﹐甚至把他踹倒在地上﹐問他說﹐你憑什麼用男生廁所﹐你到對面去用女生廁所﹐你用男生廁所是站得用﹐還是蹲得用﹐後來這個小朋友死在血泊裡頭﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
2451.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
2473.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
死在廁所裡頭這個案子說是學校設施不良還罰了校長跟總務主任實際上我們知道犧牲了一個小朋友換來一個最完整我們從幼兒園一直到博士班都要上性騷擾的教育我們校園的性騷擾這一次三法的修正全部是往校園的性騷擾那邊過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
2475.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
2501.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
下面一個法律叫做《性騷擾防治法》我想各位坐電梯的時候都會看到禁止生豬嫌豬手發生了這個事情以後打113、110求助這個是什麼?性騷擾防治法其他的國家對性騷擾防治做到什麼時候呢?做到校園就做不下去了我們台灣多走了一步現在甚至多走了兩步多了一個性騷擾防治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
2502.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
2525.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個法管什麼我這裡都特別講他管軍中軍中不是我們今天要上課的東西公共場所待會我們講到修正的時候立法院也是一個公共場所記者採訪的記者什麼都可以進來廠商什麼都可以進來對不對萬一發生了性騷擾事件這個性騷擾防治法也用得上一般服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
2527.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
2546.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
你去坐公車去唱KTV或者什麼但是呢有兩個非常重要的一個是叫專業服務一個叫下班以後的行為什麼叫專業服務我剛剛講過剛剛上課的時候跟大家講你太太去看病你太太去看病 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
2547.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
2573.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
專業服務的性騷擾專業服務性騷擾我現在來炒熱一下氣氛來問問看我們立法院的同仁們跟社會脈動有沒有很接近我想問今天來上課的朋友根據您的common sense在台灣完全合法而受人尊敬的行業裡頭哪兩種從業人員女性的從業人員最容易被性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
2578.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
2601.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我講完全合法而且受人尊敬所以鋼管女郎、檳榔西施、跳燕舞的都不算各位可不可以給我一個回答護理現在不能叫人家護士現在要叫人家護理師人家是professional護理屈居老二屈居老二還有一個老大每次只錄取60個來了6000個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
2603.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
2608.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理． |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
2626.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
2655.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
對不對 空姐是個性的表徵嘛然後在密閉的空間裡頭白酒紅酒一吹情這個很容易發生那個空姐被性騷擾比例85%大家說有這麼高嗎 有我們做過四次的調查 有這麼高但是 空姐以後被性騷擾會急劇的下降甚至趨向於無形那大家說以後搭飛機就沒什麼樂趣了 對不對的確是什麼呀 為什麼 因為疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
2657.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
2682.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
兩岸的空服員女性空服員都受一樣的訓練叫什麼永春拳所以以後搭飛機以後每個被打得熊貓眼一點樂趣都沒有護士護理人員護理人員全世界的調查都告訴我們超過一半以上會被性騷擾會被在執行中會被性騷擾我現在把麥克風向著你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
2683.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
2700.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
你們要很大聲地喊出答案來如果答案是正確的我們下一節課就不要上了因為大家有正確的性別意識可是如果答錯的話我自動抖內一個小時再幫跟大家奮鬥到吃午飯為止所以大家要聽好 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
2702.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
2725.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
美國跟台灣跟全世界所有的跟護理人員的調查都會告訴我們有三種人最喜歡騷擾護理人員三種人最喜歡騷擾我現在把麥克風向著你們很大聲的喊出答案來我想請教立法院的員工們根據您的common sense誰最喜歡騷擾護理人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
2733.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
2756.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我以前問大家所以你看我們對性騷擾充滿了迷思我以前問大家說誰最喜歡騷擾護理人員大家都回答說醫生跟你們剛剛回答很像嘛我給他們的答案是日本A片看得太多以為穿著白袍子什麼壞事都幹得出來我今天要特別幫我們的醫生講幾句好話他們絕對沒有你們想像中那麼dirty |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
2758.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
2773.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
三大污染源剛剛我們也聽到其他地方都聽到最容易消亡我們的護理人員第一個是什麼男性的病患第二個是什麼呢病患的男性家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
2774.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
2795.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
都不是什麼好東西第三才是我們可憐的小醫生我們台灣的醫生循規蹈矩很少騷擾護理人員但是他不騷擾護理人員他非常喜歡騷擾女病患以前醫生騷擾女病患沒有法律可以管專業服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
2797.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
2817.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因病關係本來就不對等而且充滿了私密訊還沒有問你話的時候就過來了我的媽媽跟岳母我的太太我的女兒以前打死不看病為什麼會被吃豆腐現在不像了現在不一樣了現在我們有處診的守則 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
2820.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
2839.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
現代婦女基金會在我們的協助之下訂了修正的守則你要碰人家什麼地方事先要跟他講好旁邊還站一個兇巴巴的護理人員瞪著眼睛看著你我們臺灣在這方面醫病的關係這個法是非常好的另外一個下班以後的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
2841.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
2863.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們今天來談上班啊工作場所上班的時候下班以後大家說這是我的free time啊我下班以後我要做什麼就做什麼嘛還要這個法還要管嗎要管大家記住喔你們下班以後你們下班以後你們是立法院的員工啊下班以後坐在公車上面走在馬路上去唱KTV去看病 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
2864.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
2883.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
碰到了這個事情如果你欺負人家或者你很不幸的被人家欺負鬧到警察局去了一查你是立法院的員工這個案子警察局在做完筆錄以後就送到這來如果你是行為人立法院要續行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
2885.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
2910.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
如果你是被害人我們要知道對方是什麼人立法院要協助你去處理所以下班以後也要管所以當這個法出來的時候我服務的地方中研院的院長那個時候是翁啟惠翁院長特別打電話給我問我說叫教授因為他是我的高中同學他打電話給我說叫教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
2911.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
2914.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理． |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
2937.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
2965.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
站在中研院的門口看到每一個下班的人走過去的車子開過的車子或是走過來要大聲跟他廣播說請各位同仁在下班以後依然循規蹈矩實時以中研院的名義為念絕對不要做出任何讓中研院蒙羞的事情出來他在電話那段跟我大叫一聲說那我不是變成你們的Moral Tutor道德導師了嗎這個法就是這個樣子而且這個法現在還保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
2965.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
2991.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以你看看我們臺灣的法律多麼的健全下面一個是什麼跟蹤騷擾防治法前年6月1號出來了又是一個悲劇又是一個悲劇出了什麼事我們的國境之難國境之難大家都曉得什麼地方有一個電訊行的正妹 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
2992.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3017.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
他被一個社會邊緣人跟蹤騷擾他跑到派出所去報案派出所怎麼跟他說我們的勤務太忙了沒有辦法照顧到你你請你的家人陪伴萬一才鬧得不像話我們再來幫你處理結果就有這麼一天有這麼一天家人沒有陪同他被殺害了聽說還侮辱了屍體 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3020.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3031.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
五路的事理定了一個什麼跟蹤騷擾防治法待會兒跟大家分析喔這個法裡頭有八種跟蹤騷擾行為我看了以後俗然心驚阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3033.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3058.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
大概五六十年前我們如果這個法在的話我們都觸犯了這個跟蹤騷擾你要追女朋友啊待會跟她講我要知道她在哪裡啊要跟蹤她啊要送她禮物啊要幹什麼都不能做啦都不能做啦可是這個法有個好處這個法有個好處它處理什麼東西它處理極端的跟蹤騷擾行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3060.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3088.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們都會碰到恐怖情人恐怖情人我想問一下在座今天來上課的朋友立法院管不管辦公室的正常戀情我所謂的正常戀情是男未婚女未嫁兩個人都成年了彼此之間沒有指揮隸屬的關係沒有利害衝突的關係立法院管不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3089.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3092.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
學校通常此情只可曾追議 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3107.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3130.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
對不對 大家心裡都有那麼一塊很美的一塊可是都沒有實現所以每次我坐在捷運上面看到對面的高中高職生在那邊欲死欲仙啊心中總有著無限的惆悵都會想到60年前的他現在在哪裡啊對不對 都沒有結果可是職場非常容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3131.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3157.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
因為我們台灣的公司是全世界第四場每天大眼瞪小眼很容易擦出愛的火花但是我這裡要跟在座的各位講在我那個時代是不允許的40多年前大概41年前我到中研院去報到我的所長把我找到他的辦公室很嚴肅的問我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3160.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3178.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
教教授你知不知道中研院有天條嗎我怎麼知道呢我剛剛第一天報到中研院的門開在哪裡我都不曉得可是我那時候年輕啊我很逞強啊我說他一定考我七字問答萬一我答不出來不是很遜嗎我馬上跟我的所長說我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3179.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3205.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我所長說嚇了一跳說你知道中研院的天條是什麼嗎我馬上跟他說中研院是學術機構所以他的天條是不可抄襲你看看40多年前我已經知道這個問題的嚴重性了對不對我就說不可抄襲結果我的所長跟我笑笑說不是他說中研院的天條是你不能跟你旁邊異性的研究人員助理還有行政人員談戀愛 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3207.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3233.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我馬上跟他舉手說本人已結婚他說那更不行現在管得了嗎根本管不住了嘛喔管不住各位我要跟在座的各位講因為立法院有很多年輕的朋友辦公室的戀情跟性騷擾只有一線之隔兩情相悅不是我們要管的事但是有一方不喜歡你不是我的菜 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3234.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3253.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我已經心有所屬﹖我要考國家考試﹖不要來巴抖我﹖就﹖會有問題﹖所以﹖當你看到你們周遭發生了辦公室的現象不要每天在那邊傳﹖今天有沒有手拉手﹖明天有沒有嘴對嘴﹖要知道﹖只要有一方不喜歡﹖就會變成性騷擾﹖好事也會變成壞事 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3256.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3278.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我後面還會跟大家再講一下這個法是用刑法來主要是拿來對付那些比較極端的行為他有待會再講所以這四個法我們現在還沒有我們這四個法第一個今天來上課是你們的工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3280.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3298.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
立法院要提供一個免遭性騷擾的工作環境給所有的人給所有人這是工作權第二個性別平等教育法是保障學生的受教權但是它非常嚴謹的調查程序也保障了行政人員跟老師的工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
3299.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
3321.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
第三個《性騷擾防治法》跟《跟蹤騷擾法》都是人身安全跟人格的尊嚴我相信立法院的內規因為你們都跟這個除了校園比較沒有關係以外你們跟這三個法獲得獲獎都有一定的牽連所以你們的內規剛剛副座也特別問我你們內規也要跟著修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
3323.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
3347.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
把這三個法都擺進去我們現在來進到剛剛給大家的scenario剛剛的scenario長官把下屬叫到房間裡頭旁邊一個人都沒有要怎麼處理第一個你們會問我剛剛那個人講說在那個房間裡頭長官對他毛手毛腳到底有沒有發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
3349.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
3373.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我跟在座的各位講我一共處理了將近450件的性騷擾發生在各個場域的性騷擾主要將近300多件將近400件是跟職場有關其他校園、公共場所、專業服務、一般服務我大概都碰過全台灣大概沒有人比我經驗還豐富你們會問我那個房間裡的事情到底有沒有發生我這裡可以跟大家打胸脯保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
3375.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
3378.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
根據我的經驗97%的案子都是實際發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
3382.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
3405.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
百分之九十七也就是絕大部分的案子都是實際發生的包括在公共場所裡頭發生的在公車上面在馬路上或者什麼地方發生的時候絕大部分的案子就是實際發生那你們會問我說有沒有因愛生恨有沒有狹怨報復有沒有什麼其他的特別的有但是只要一經調查訪談這個我們待會也會跟大家談只要一經過調查訪談無所遁形 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
3412.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
3439.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以 絕大部分的性騷擾都是實際發生的第二個 沒有證據啊沒有證據啊 你剛剛講的沒有錄影啊沒有錄音筆啊 什麼都沒有只有他講說我在房間裡頭長官對我做不禮貌的舉動那他的長官一定會說我絕對沒有動他一根汗毛我們到底要相信誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
3441.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
3470.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們到底要相信誰呢?我跟在座的各位講我在40年前30多年前第一次處理發生在職場性騷擾案就碰到這樣的問題出了什麼事?臺北一個非常有名的工商業的鉅子現在還在商場上赫赫有名他出了什麼事?他被他的女秘書告 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
3472.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
3495.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
說對他毛手毛腳對他講不應該講的東西那個時候我們台灣完全沒有任何的這方面的法律唯一跟這個事件有關的是什麼就業服務法就業服務法的第五條裡頭有一個性別歧視的規定僱主對所僱用的員工或者應知求職者不得因為他的性別而予以歧視 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
3497.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
3514.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個女秘書可能有高人指點跟他說你用這條來提出申訴那個時候臺北市第一個設置就業歧視評議委員會那個時候臺北市的勞工局長叫做郭吉仁先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
3516.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
3540.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
郭靖他是個律師他非常開明他怎麼跟我說他說焦教授我聽說你是因為我是臺北市就期委員的第一屆委員他說我聽說你在美國是學性騷擾的現在我們出了這樣的一個性騷擾他說性騷擾是一種性別歧視待會我們會談他的確是一種性別歧視他說你可不可以來幫助協助處理一下我臨危上陣 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
3541.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
3557.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
就把我美國學來的東西用在這個案件上大家聽好啊大家聽好我跟這個在調查的時候我問這個被指控就指控人家對他性騷擾的時候我說他對你做不禮貌的事情你有沒有跟別人講 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
3558.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
3575.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
你有沒有跟別人講他給我的回答讓我大吃一驚啊因為我們那時候台灣民風未開他怎麼說他說我被人家性騷擾是件很丟臉的事我怎麼好意思跟別人講呢而且他在社會上地位這麼高我講出來誰會相信我啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
3576.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
3578.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理： |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
3594.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
3622.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
他說我先生固然很喜歡我很支持我但是呢他脾氣很壞我只要跟他講他一定去找我的這個老闆去玩Gay啊我的工作可能就沒有了所以我都沒有講我都沒有講我一個人都沒講我說糟了我在美國學的第一個跟別人講就走不下去了我馬上就問他說你有沒有養成一個就是說有一個習慣寫日記他說我會寫日記啊你有沒有把你事發的經過一件一件這樣寫日記把它寫下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
3623.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
3639.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他說我嘗試的去寫可是每次寫到他欺負我的時候我的情緒就上來了我就把寫的東西都丟掉了全部都丟掉了所以我沒有跟別人講也沒有留下隻字片語我說慘了我在美國學的東西完全走不下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
3639.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
3665.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我回到家裡不曉得應該怎麼辦萬一我做錯了認定不是害人很慘嗎結果我太太看我那個坐立不安的樣子我太太是一個資深的法官不過那個時候還是很年輕啊我太太就問我說發生了什麼事我就跟她講她就罵我說法律讀哪裡去了我就跟她說跟你一樣的法學院畢業了她說你記不記得讀大三大四的時候教我們民事訴論法跟學事訴論法的姚瑞光老師跟我們講過什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
3666.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
3695.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
各位來上課的朋友你們記不記得大三大四的時候你們老師跟你們講過什麼我只好跟我太太說我什麼都記不得了我只記得大一讀《民法》切數篇的時候陳其炎老師陳時中的爸爸你們就可以想見我多麼的資深我說陳其炎老師一直跟我們班上男生說絕對不能在外頭生黑孩子要不然財產不好分配我說我只記得這個東西我太太就罵我說該記的不記不該記的記了一大堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
3696.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
3699.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
當事人對事件本身的陳述就是一個證據但是不能做唯一的證據我也是讀法律的人我聽了我就懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
3722.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
3739.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我今天被人家騷擾被人家欺負我跟別人講我把它寫下來大家不要忘了現在更進步了跟別人講我把它寫下來我甚至提出正式的申訴當天下午兩點我到長官的房間裡頭他對我毛手毛腳就是一個證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
3741.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
3765.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
各位 我們的MeToo的事件裡頭我每次看到這個被害人提起20年前10年前被人家欺負那個累年年的樣子好辛苦啊他說旁邊沒有人啊不要忘了你是被害人你也是證人啊對不對那要不然旁邊沒有人的案子永遠破不了了永遠都沒有證據了這是很大的笑話嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
3766.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
3795.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我說我下午兩點到長官的房間 被他 我在申訴書上寫 被他毛手毛腳 這就是證據但是不能做唯一的證據 對不對 不能做唯一的證據不能做唯一的證據 要不然他長官被咬死了 還要補其他的證據 其他的證據那長官非常高意 說哎呀 那天很熱 我就在他的旁邊不小心碰到他自白也不能做唯一的證據 我們要補其他的證據 各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
3796.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
3820.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
所有的性騷擾待會兒會談調查的東西我們要調查什麼東西直接證據什麼叫直接證據當時人提出申訴嘛我提出申訴下午兩點在長官的房間裡他欺負我直接證據什麼叫間接證據旁邊沒有監視錄影器房間裡頭長官的房間裡頭沒有外頭有啊照到兩個人下午走進去然後一個女孩子自己跑出來間接證據還有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
3822.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
3843.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們在調查的時候會問這個被害人說你有沒有跟別人講你有沒有寫下來他就說我發生的事情我跟張大哥李大姐講張大哥李大姐就是我們的關係人就是我們的證人我們會找他來講訪談我們會問他說他有沒有跟你講有沒有間接證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
3845.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
3873.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
然後大姐大哥大姐非常熱心說這個女孩子平常開開朗朗的可是那天來跟我講的時候是慌張的不曉得應該怎麼處理不知所措情況證據還有什麼呢傳聞證據各位你服務的地方誰是皇帝誰是皇后誰是辦公室的那一邊大家心知肚明今天有一個人站出來產生滾雪球的效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
3874.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
3894.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以大家記住所有的性騷擾都是有證據的而且我待會跟他談調查的這個所以第一個絕大部分的性騷擾案子都是實際發生的而且我們是以被害人那他講的就算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
3896.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
3920.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
他說我在房間裡被長官欺負我們就要相信他嗎?不是這麼簡單他還要通過一個非常嚴酷的考驗也就是說他提出申訴以後他要考驗他要是什麼?合理的被害人英文叫什麼?reasonable victim什麼叫合理的被害人?今天我沒有寫因為我怕搞得太複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
3921.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
3936.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他沒有精神關聯症英文裡頭叫做他沒有mentally disturbed他沒有精神關聯症我以前去演講的時候都說合理的被害人就是沒有精神關聯症結果有一次我到一個醫學單位去演講 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
3938.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
3954.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
被我的聽眾直接挑戰他說焦教授你是學醫的嗎我說我不是我學法的他說你憑什麼說人家有精神觀念症啊我們台灣通過了聯合國的身心障礙者權力保障公約啊你憑什麼把人家污名化所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
3955.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
3978.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所謂的合理被害人就是他沒有認知或者什麼各方面的問題也就是說他沒有精神觀認知各位我們訪談的時候我稍微跟大家講一下我們訪談的時候大概跟當事人隔這麼遠我們三個調查委員會坐在這邊旁邊有個行政人員做錄音做逐字稿的工作他就坐在我們對面 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
3980.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4002.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
當一位委員在問他問題的時候我們另外兩位委員近身的觀察他做什麼事呢?決定他是不是合理的被害我們的訪談是一個小時到一個半小時不會超過一個半小時要不然就變成疲勞轟炸當一位委員問他一些問題的時候兩位委員就近身觀察他通常他滿不住 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4004.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4022.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們第一個來看他有沒有精神狀況情緒過度敏感或者什麼東西或者有什麼認知上的問題或者什麼被害妄想最糟糕的就是關係妄想還有智能不足有人會問說智能不足的人提出來的東西可靠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4022.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4050.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
各位我們辦過案子中油的小天使加油站的小天使大家說他智能都不足有些智能不足的對他的被害經過的講述比我們還清楚所以我們當知道有一個被害人是智能不足的時候我們調查委員一定有一個是受過專業訓練在一個小時到一個半小時訪談如果他是合理的被害人reasonable victim他講話的可靠度就高 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4052.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4069.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
他講話的可靠度就高然後我們會問他有沒有不當的動氣我們會問他有沒有不當的動氣因愛生恨 狹怨暴富或什麼很快就問出來瞞不住的所以絕大部分的性騷擾都是實際發生的那我先 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4074.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4092.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
下一節課我是一個非常人道的上課者會給大家休息十分鐘下一節課我就把新的修法你們可以聽得出來我對它新的修法並不是那麼滿意不過國家既然已經制定法律我們就去執行它最好我們只把內部處理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4093.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4094.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
請大家10點40來就位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4125.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4152.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
應該來得及 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4161.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4162.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4185.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4186.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4223.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4230.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4236.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4245.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4270.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4273.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
4294.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
4294.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
4321.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
4336.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
4337.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
4344.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
4374.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
4379.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
4399.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
4399.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
會議結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
4423.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
4429.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
4446.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
4447.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
4473.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
4474.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
4499.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
4500.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
《性騷擾三法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
4533.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
4533.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
4555.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
4556.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
4586.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
4592.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
4612.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
4632.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
4645.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
4648.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
4673.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
4673.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
4693.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
4696.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
4710.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
4711.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
4736.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
4737.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
4765.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
4766.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
4787.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
4809.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
4812.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
4815.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
4842.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
4871.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
各位朋友我們就續未了之緣大家會特別會想到就是說萬一成立了一個調查委員會有個內部的申訴機制成立一個調查要請這個調查委員來做調查會不會把事情搞得更糟會不會讓當事人這個情緒或什麼的我這裡跟大家分享一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
4873.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
4884.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
調查程序：如果處理得好：我覺得對被害人：對被害人的父權：對被害人：因為被害人非常淒慘：非常難受： |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
4892.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
4908.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
每次談到這個性騷擾案子我都會想到我自己處理的這樣的一個個案跟大家來做個分享我們不要把調查機制當作一個洪水猛獸因為這個新法實施以後內部的處理機制會越來越重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
4909.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
4938.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
各位非常有可能各位非常有可能會都接觸到不管是申訴或者什麼的調查程序的啟動越來越變成司空見慣可是我們絕對不要把調查程序視為洪水猛獸你越瞞越遮的越不好因為現在網路或者各方面都非常的發達越遮遮掩掩越是不好倒不如坦然的面對坦然面對我這裡跟大家分享一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
4939.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
4952.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我們處理這個被害人非常非常糟糕可是呢如果說調查委員能夠用一個同情的態度同理心去處理這個案件我覺得發揮的作用是蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
4955.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
4977.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個案件牽涉到一個律師這個律師在業界非常有名他主要是講人權他也會上電視我每次看到他在電視上出現我就趕快轉台因為他讓我覺得不太舒服因為他跟社會上的評價有一段距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
4985.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5001.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
她出了什麼事有一個在南部的一個國立大學的女孩子拿到了法學碩士的學位到她的事務所去做法務的工作報到的第一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5002.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5025.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
他就想對這個女孩子染指這個女孩子他跟這個女孩子怎麼講呢他說今天晚上會請客戶吃日本料理你既然新來報到我們也順便迎接你一下迎新一下可是他下面那句話讓這個女孩子望之卻步他說可能會喝點小酒 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5026.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5048.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個女孩子就不敢去了找個理由就推掉了還好沒去第二天上班的時候看到律師的太太帶著兩個女兒來宣誓主權然後旁邊的人跟她說絕對不能跟這個律師出去非常會撩妹也不負責任所以絕對不能跟他出去會吃虧的所以這個律師怎麼請她 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5049.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5059.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
邀約她出去玩或者幹什麼我那時候才知道那時候還沒有來眼淚有花火節還知道有個花火節啊什麼情的那這個女孩子都拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5060.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5082.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這女孩在mail裡頭會跟他說老闆你有個非常好的家庭我不適合跟你單獨出去或什麼東西一概都跟他說NO結果這個律師就開始對他另眼看待他也覺得有點因為這是他第一份工作他有點慌結果有一天律師跟他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5083.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5096.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們明天下午兩點到四點到北部的山區給原住民的朋友宣導法令是法務部的公益活動可能有幾十人到一百人來參加你要不要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5096.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5114.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
他心裡想我再不去的話實在太不事項了就決定去公開的場所兩點到四點不會有什麼結果就去了這個律師的口條非常好我相信他有精心設計本來是兩點到四點他在Q&A的時候一直延到五點 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5115.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5142.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
沿到五點然後照學生的法務提出的申訴講解說他們從山上下來從山上下來已經五點了結果律師開著他的Bands很輕鬆地吹著口哨然後從compartment裡頭很自然地拿出一個非常好的飲料跟他說你是不是口渴了要不要喝點東西他因為涉世未深 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5143.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5145.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
各位,她是一個讀法律的女孩她照理說她應該去報案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5158.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5175.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
結果這個律師非常的會撩妹居然說服他跟他走在一起這個我們叫做斯德哥爾摩鄧侯群你跟你的加害人走在一起而且發生了合意的性行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5177.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5202.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
很快就被這個律師的太太找到了知道了以後然後把她fire掉然後告她妨礙家庭現在那個時候還沒有通姦處罪法告她妨礙家庭這個女孩子不曉得應該怎麼辦這是她第一份工作就跌得這麼摔得這麼大的跟頭她跑去找她的指導教授她指導教授是我的學妹她指導教授怎麼跟她說你可以告她性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5204.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5226.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
把這個女孩子嚇了一跳她說老師我都跟她發生合意的性行為我怎麼可以告她性騷擾她說性騷擾最重要的一個定義就是被害人不歡迎的被害人不歡迎unwelcome或者unwanted我們剛講以被害人的觀點來出發她邀約你一直出去邀約你都跟她說no |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5227.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5254.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這個是性騷擾你要告他性侵害可能告不成因為你們兩個已經發生合一的性行為可是你告他性騷擾可能是一條路的結果呢我們再沒想到律師協會接受了我相信這個律師可能人緣不好還怎麼樣接受了我們就調查這個案子各位我這輩子沒有看過這麼悲傷我辦了那麼多案件諮詢的案子一千三百多件我沒有看過這麼悲傷的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5255.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5269.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為他簡直是不曉得應該怎麼辦一個半小時的話我跟兩位女法學教授一起訪談這個案子一個半小時的訪談就是哭、叫、鬧不斷地自殘把額頭都創出血來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5272.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5297.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
把我們三個調查委員跟旁邊的主理忙得不得了不想跟他們怎麼辦我們的召集人說不能放他出去一個半小時訪台灣不能放他出去放他出去會出事的趕快找他的家人來接他有家人找不到那個時候手機什麼也沒有現在那麼方便找不到不想跟他們怎麼辦結果我們的召集人說他的指導教授不就是你的學妹嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5299.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5325.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
打電話請她來接我說怎麼好意思臨時叫人家過來她說沒有問題她人很熱心的而且她也知道這個事情你試試看好了萬一她不肯來的話我把她接回家去我跟我的先生打個電話我把她接回家裡去我不放心她在外頭我就打電話找我的學妹我學妹一聽到電話就因為她知道這個事你們三個人絕對不能把她放走 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5326.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5328.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
兩年以後,這個女孩子寫個mail給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5352.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5377.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
跟我說什麼教教授我知道你是我的救命恩人我老師都跟我講我想來看你但是我走不出來現在經過兩年我走可以出來了可以出來我曉得你很忙我到中研院只跟你舉個弓說一聲謝謝我掉頭就走可不可以我說不行我說按照調查倫理我們這輩子是不能見面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5378.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5406.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我在街上看到你,我也裝作不認識其實我已經忘了他長什麼樣子我只想說瘦瘦高高的就記得他哭的樣子各位,我們在一個半小時的訪談之中沒有講過一句難聽的話因為他情緒這麼的高漲我們不會跟他說你怎麼可以喝這個飲料學法律的,被人家強暴了應該趕快報警啊怎麼會一錯再錯,沒有我們只跟他講你真勇敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5407.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
5435.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
讓我們知道律師界還有這樣的人他在外頭的形象這麼好沒想到有這麼大的落差各位如果我們好好善用調查程序對被害人是很好的一個將來我們這個法修正以後調查程序將來是司空見怪所以絕對不要把它當作洪水猛獸調查程序說我用中央研究院來做例子我們有三十幾個所 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
5437.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
5454.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
三十幾個所九千多個員工如果把生計中心都算進去的話九千多個員工中間有七百多個人是外國人多複雜可是我們的院長廖院長非常清楚講得非常清楚中央研究院不怕性騷擾只怕處理得不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
5455.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
5471.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們三十幾個所發生性騷擾不能自行處理全部要送到總辦事處來有一個獨立的委員會來處理他這個案件不管你的身份怎麼樣發生了以後我們後面會講比例原則處分所以大家記住絕對不要把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
5474.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
5499.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們這次修正最主要就是出了最高負責人大家都曉得MeToo的時候正好出了一個跟一個我們一個部會的一個首長把他的部會搞得像後宮一樣的我們認為最高負責人沒有辦法你今天如果在中央在你們院裡頭就是你們的韓院長性騷擾人家的話你怎麼可能期待在院裡頭有一個公正的程序來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
5500.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
5519.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
連個委員會可能都只好到外頭去但是到外頭容易洩密然後外頭人不懂得你內部的生態為什麼要在內部解決因為我處理這麼多案件絕大部分的案件都是小案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
5521.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
5531.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
幫世人的訴求 臺灣的勞工我主要是因為我是學勞工法的所以我主要是處理職場的性騷擾臺灣的受僱者跟勞工其實都很善良 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
5532.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
5556.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
他的要求不多他的要求不多他的要求以後不要再欺負我了跟我說聲對不起了不起把他調走你使我活的案子很少可是你把他鬧得這麼大尤其到外頭去經過渲染經過什麼對立的情形非常嚴重就沒有辦法找出當事人可以解決我所處理的四百多件案子都是在內部解決的都不會到外頭去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
5557.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
5581.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
都不會到外頭只要看到在外頭我剛才講過戴著漁夫帽戴著墨鏡戴著口罩在那邊哭訴這種案子都無解而且我所處理的案子絕對不是高調的案子因為我一直奉行我在美國的指導教授跟我講的他說性騷擾不是一個big deal不是一個大不了的事可是你沒有把它處理好就會變成big deal |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
5584.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
5602.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以我都不會去處理高調的案子媒體暴露的案子我都不會去處理我只希望在內部幫當事人把問題解決掉就好讓行為人得到教訓讓被害人覺得說我提出申訴不會被報復然後機關好好幫我處理我就不要到外頭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
5604.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
5629.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我就不要到外頭去了解決問題是最重要但是呢我們現在公權力的外部機制直接介入這個並不好這個並不好因為為什麼修法的修法的負責修法的不管是這個所有的負責包括我們行政的體系或者立法體系他們本身都沒有去調查過案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
5631.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
5657.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他們都沒有調查過他們看到的案件都是那些比較難解決的案件所以把外部的機制帶進來外部的機制他不曉得你內部的情況我剛剛講了我們做調查的時候因為絕大部分的被害人都是女性所以我們的委員會的組成絕大部分的調查委員組成三個委員兩個女性一個男性一個男性 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
5659.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
5683.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
要看這個有一定的性別比例然後我們通常都有一個如果說是公部門或是私部單位裡頭都會有一個人讓他有一個學習的機會做調查委員做調查委員所以調查程序不是大家想像中那麼樣的像洪水猛獸而且我們調查的時候大家記住我們在做調查委員的時候我們沒有公權力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
5684.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
5702.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我沒有公權力的我到職場上去調查的時候我不是法官我不是檢察官我不是調查員我不是司法警察我只是一個教授我沒有國家的公權力做我的得到我只能做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
5703.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
5723.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我只能盡心盡力的去做調查我不能叫當事人來策劃我沒有這個能力嘛我不是國家的共權力做後盾我不能夠叫當事人來做對質大家記住喔以後你們有機會去處理性騷擾的案件或者幹什麼的時候絕對不能對質 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
5727.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
5751.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
對質對事實的發現一點好處都沒有而把對抗的情緒提高對抗情緒提高所以我們去做調查的時候不做對質然後我們也不能跟證人說你不能做偽證你要拒絕不能做偽證沒有這個權利所以我們所使用的證據法則是什麼我們講的證據法則有好幾種一種叫做明確而令人信服的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
5753.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
5775.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
一種叫做超越合理懷疑的證據可是我們去做性騷擾調查的時候我們用的證據是什麼優勢證據英文叫做preponderance什麼叫做優勢證據我剛剛講的這個女孩子說我到長官的房間裡頭長官對我毛手毛腳長官說我絕對沒有動她一根汗毛 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
5776.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
5786.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們三個調查委員要用共識決的方式共識決的方式決定誰講的比較有道理用的證據法則51% |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
5788.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
5811.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
哪個人講得比較可靠﹖他如果是合理的被害人﹖他沒有不當的動機﹖他沒有什麼的話﹖他講話的可靠度就高所以大家記住不要把對抗的東西帶進去因為你到外部深處機制的時候﹖很多都會把律師或什麼都請進來我不是說律師不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
5812.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
5812.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
最高負責人：院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
5839.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
5860.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
最高負責人 院長 性騷擾別人你沒辦法期待在立法院啟動一個比較公平的機制或者說在私人企業裡的僱用人老闆本身就毛手毛腳你怎麼可能期待他組一個調查委員來做調查呢誰敢出來擔任這個調查委員呢除了外部委員以外 內部委員誰敢出來呢第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
5862.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
5891.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
如果僱主沒有處理不處理不管不管有些僱主會做這樣的事或者說你不服他的調查結果也就是說被害人行為人不可能行為人通常都不會不服他如果讓他再去到外部機制的話只會是紛爭個案被害人如果覺得老闆所做出來的調查結果或者說懲戒的處分他覺得不服他的業他可以到外部去外部所謂的外部就是到勞工局 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
5892.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
5902.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
到勞工局去那你像臺北市勞工局他有一定的時效期間萬一這裡發生了性騷擾事件你有個通報的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
5904.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
5909.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
5924.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
5946.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
但是這次的修法把最高負責人放進去為什麼就是因為我們出了一個部會部會級的首長出了這樣事他的罰則是一萬塊到一百萬罰行為人到底是好還是不好到現在為止還沒有一個定論我們等三月八號以後這個法實施以後再看一下再看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
5948.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
5973.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
還有我們現在多了一個利用權勢這個在立法院可能是非常重要的立法院對他的助理很可能就是利用權勢這樣的一個情形可是我剛剛跟黃小姐做了初步的意見交換好像你們的內規跟我所知道的內規好像不太一樣我會回去再研究一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
5973.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
5974.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
還有懲罰性賠償金法院也抓進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
5988.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6017.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
多了一個懲罰件 這個我覺得非常不好把法院 法院沒立 要辦的案子很多的現在又把法院也扯進來扯進來我覺得有點當然現在還沒有實施了到底會發生什麼樣的效果然後我覺得這次修法裡頭比較好的就是對雇主 我們剛剛講雇主以前的法律只有防治兩個字而且沒有罰則現在我們把防治特別加重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6018.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6043.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
以前我剛剛講﹖30個人以上﹖要有內部深宿處理心得10個人以上10個人到不到30個人的﹖要有深宿管道﹖而且要公開揭示公開揭示那你什麼樣叫窒息呢﹖我剛剛也特別跟大家講﹖我們以前其實已經做到了﹖可是這次修法把它完全擺到條文裡頭去了有兩種方式窒息﹖一個是深宿 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6044.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6067.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
直接提出申訴直接提出申訴你仔細的情緒第二個你不是因為申訴你從匿名檢舉或者你耳聞馬路消息或者你在飲水機那邊聽到了有這個東西或者什麼東西的時候你知道這個這個有時候有它的責任通報我剛剛也講過然後現在多了一個不幸預告如果情節重大的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6068.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6073.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理． |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6093.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6116.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
擴大的解釋不是說你只在工作的時候非工作時間也會算在裡頭去然後萬一你到外部的身處機制去提的時候你可以有法律諮詢跟輔助以前的法律裡頭只規定到什麼只規定到你要訴訟的時候才有法律輔助可是現在如果你到外部的身處機制的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6116.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6142.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
地方政府還有我們中央主管機關勞動部都要提供這個法律的輔助法律輔助然後申請調整職務還有諮商這個東西非常重要這個我們待會再談到組織的力量裡頭諮商尤其是員工協助方案我相信立法院有員工協助方案這個非常那個然後還有這個懲罰性的損害非常輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6144.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6173.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
還有其他的改革我就不講了因為非常細 跟大家都沒有關係沒有直接的關係我們直接的關係還是在我們立法院的內部以前的法律裡頭就是相關的規定的真正的落實可能發揮的效用是比較大的不管是舊法或者新法以後我們立法院要怎麼樣來要怎麼樣來保護大家用組織的力量來保護大家第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6174.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6196.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
第一個就是最高負責人今天我剛剛講過了你們的院長還有秘書長還有副院長透過我今天上課的這樣一個方式很明確的跟大家講雖然我們沒有像勞動部像我因為這個新法要制定什麼勞動部的單位請我去演講的時候一講完了以後馬上就發一個書面聲明給所有的來聽講的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6198.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6220.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
要他們簽名說我已經知道勞動部的內部申訴機制我萬一發生了性騷擾的事件我不會到外頭去爆料我會詢勞動部的內部申訴機制來處理馬上就做那個當然我們院裡頭要不要這樣的做或什麼因為剛剛講過他要公開揭示可是很多人說我沒看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6221.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6239.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以最好的辦法就是每一個人設計一個欄位每一個人都說我知道立法院的辦法我會去我萬一發生這個我不會出犯性騷擾萬一我很不幸發生這個事情我會循立法院的內規來處理這樣的話僱主的免責的抗辯就會比較強一點內部申訴機制剛剛跟黃小姐有個 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6244.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6261.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
意見的交流我覺得你們的內部深處機制好像不處理立法委員跟助理之間的關係我覺得這個是一個不太好的機制我用中央研究院來跟大家我在中央研究院我們的研究員跟助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6262.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6288.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是有一層非常重的信任關係信任關係我們中研院的助理如果被研究人員性騷擾的話一律到中研院自己本身去處理我們不會到其他的管道所以這個部分我覺得有商榷的空間商榷的空間我會在了解以後我來看看怎麼樣去協助一下訓練今天的上課就是訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6289.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6290.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．從 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6313.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6332.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
預防是最重要只要有人的單位就會發生性騷擾 絕對不可行免但是預防預防是一個非常好的訓練就是一個非常好的訓練好的然後呢 資訊以後現在已經法律上規定了正式跟非正式要交織的使用調查訪談然後比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6334.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6356.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我很擔心在修法以後因為法則的提升僱主會不教而殺因為你們院長非常喜歡講不教而殺為之虐非常喜歡講這句話我很擔心以後你在職場上講一個大字就被開除掉了這個不好我剛剛講過性騷擾要看所有的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6357.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6374.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所有的情況 舉例來講 我在中央研究院它是個學術單位 它對員工的要求是蠻高的人與人之間的互動是要注重一定的理由如果你今天在中央研究院 在開所務會議的時候講了一個F開頭的字 構成學 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6381.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6395.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
可是你今天如果是在一個修車廠、修船廠我不是說那種工作場所不好它的氛圍就是這個樣子可能左一個省罵右一個國罵可能沒事啊對不對沒事當事人之間的關係是什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6397.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6414.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
對不對今天一個下屬要指控一個長官對他毛手毛腳他要接受的考驗絕對比他要指控他的一個同事對他毛手毛腳要來得困難得多要需要更大的勇氣我們在處理上更需要更小心 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6415.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
6443.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
然後當事人之間關係工作的氛圍還有呢 行為的本身我剛剛講的那個案例在那個房間裡頭你跟人家靠這麼近然後人家回頭看你的時候還要進一步的親吻人家這種行為在我們的一般的社會的通戀上是不被允許的 對不對所以我們要做通盤的考量不是說那天在那個房間裡頭到底有沒有發生什麼事現場 我這裡跟大家分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
6444.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
6473.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我辦這麼多案子除了偷拍的偷拍的案子我們會到現場去看一會其他的案子我們不會到現場去看因為現場對我們來講已經發生了那麼久了我們對我們來講沒有什麼太多的意義最重要的最重要的就是當事人提出正式的申訴這個才是驅動調查機制的一個反擊一個非常重要的然後呢有時候有時候是 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
6474.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
6500.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我剛講97%的案子都是司機發生可是﹐的確有的案子是查不出來的是查不出來的所以在這個時候﹐我們不能﹐最好不要跟﹐這個﹐被申請人說你可以告他誣告告他妨害名譽告他公然侮辱不要這樣紛爭那個我們會跟﹐調查完﹐其實調查不成立我這裡跟大家分享我調查這麼多的案子要寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
6502.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
6512.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
性騷擾不成立是一個很大的考驗成立很好寫不成立是一個非常大的考驗那如果說不成立我們還會說 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
6514.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
6533.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
事業單位對性騷擾還是零容忍的態度然後員工協助方案我剛講過不只是被害人很糟糕行為人因為他也是我們的員工所以他需要協助我們曉得我們現在職場上壓力非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
6534.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
6554.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
都注重業績啊注重什麼東西各位我相信都曉得有很大的壓力我們不曉得怎麼排解壓力那員工協助方案是一個非常好的方式今天如果有待會有時間我還稍微跟大家談談我們台灣除了性騷擾以外我們因為性騷擾機制的健全以後將來要來處理一個霸凌的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
6555.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
6571.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
職場上霸凌的問題其實跟性騷擾差不多可是呢員工協助方案在霸凌裡頭所扮演的角色更為刺激我們現在要注重員工的心理跟精神層面的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
6572.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
6576.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理．完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
6596.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
6599.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
人因性不法侵害離職面談 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
6616.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
6637.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個在我們中研院在這一次的COVID-19以後因為我們也發生了性騷擾跟這個霸凌的案件我們特別規定要舉辦離職面談任何一個助理、行政人員他要離開的時候負責人事的副主管、副所長、副主任要跟他當面懇談40分鐘以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
6640.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
6663.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
問他為什麼會離開很多人他要離開的時候他會把一些我們平常看不出來的東西願意把它講出來所以離職面談是一個非常好的一個預警的制度因為同一個主角會不斷的出現不管是霸凌或者是性騷擾或者等等那公會我就不談了公會我就不談其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
6665.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
6677.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
在國外的經驗告訴我們為什麼國外性騷擾的案件像美國的1月21日要處理一萬多件的案件為什麼會逼我那麼多因為他們是用工會來處理我們台灣沒有工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
6678.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
6703.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
尤其公部門不能組公會對不對所以不敢提出來不敢提出來怕報復可是如果你有公會你在團體協約裡頭有所謂怨情深處的管道就不會有這個問題所以很多我們台灣很多的勞資的問題今天來上課很多年輕的朋友年紀大了大概比較希望不大可是年輕朋友千萬記住一個人的力量是有限可是組織公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
6704.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
6720.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
絕對是對你們是有幫助的絕對不要跟以前的那個舊的觀念認為工會是洪水猛獸有這次的全球化跟區域整合裡頭看得出來工會是一個非常非常重要的非常重要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
6721.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
6737.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
當事人怎麼辦今天要來上課我相信上完課以後很多的朋友一定心裡很沉重叫老師我動卓得咎啊現在新的準則出來我連看人家都不能看了等等等等我要以後跟女孩子講話要隔一丈以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
6738.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
6767.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
講話全部要用文言文我說有這麼嚴重嗎現在你三千里外都可以性騷擾別人而且如果你能夠用文言文騷擾人家我從心裏面佩服你因為現在人的國學基礎實在太糟了對不對所以大家記住叫做媽媽、太太、女兒、姊妹條款美國的大家說叫老師你又販賣老梗我把他當作自己的女兒看他今天工作情緒不好給他一個愛的抱抱 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
6769.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
6789.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
各位這裡頭講到的媽媽、太太、女兒、姐妹都是什麼我們不希望任何人對我們自己最鍾愛的異性的親人我們的媽媽、我們的太太、我們的女兒、我們的姐姐、我們的妹妹講不應該講的話做不應該做的事我自己不許做就不會出犯性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
6791.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
6819.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我這裡用一個最簡單的例子我到南部去宣導性騷擾結果有個工會幹部challenge我他說 焦教授我今天在開會的時候講了三字經 五字經 七字經 九字經夠不夠成性騷擾我說這是他邊求但是我的資訊還是不夠但是我給你一個team如果講的人不是你但是你的媽媽 你的太太 你的姐姐 你的妹妹是聽眾之一你心裡有什麼感想 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
6820.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
6846.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
他點點頭 己所不欲 勿施於人我這裡跟大家講我剛剛講的那個律師的案件他毫無悔意他在調查訪談過程中毫無悔意把我們兩個女的法學教授氣得半死都建議他去看病 氣得個半死可是到我的時候我講了一個東西他半天講不出話來 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
6847.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
6867.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
他半天講不出話來我跟他講 講什麼到我講完的時候我說大律師啊我看到你的人事資料你有兩個非常可愛的女兒哪一天女兒長大了人家用你現在這個手段去欺負你的女兒你心裡會有什麼感想嗎他半天講不出話來 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
6869.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
6879.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
他半天講不出話來我們己所不欲 勿施於人被害人 絕大部分是女性現在我們95%的被害人還是女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
6882.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
6901.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
被害人然後今天來上課的朋友我們都有異性的親人要告訴他絕對要相信自己的直覺你只要有一絲一毫的不舒服覺得不對勁你就有被性騷擾治癒不一定構成性騷擾但是要有防備性我跟你不熟 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
6903.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
6931.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
憑什麼照相的時候把手攬在我的肩膀上啊摟在我的腰上面啊對不對對我做一些不當的邀約啊送我都該送的禮物啊講話跟我靠這麼近啊常常跟我不屈而慾啊或什麼東西只要有一絲一毫的不舒服或者覺得怪怪的你就有被騷擾之餘被騷擾就要開始做修正的工作要跟別人講要寫下來或者幹什麼絕對不要漠視或者屈避 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
6932.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
6946.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
絕對不要默認我們小時候的教育在這方面是失敗的我們的家長會告訴我們什麼不要理他了久了他就無謂了他就無聊了他就會找別人去各位性騷擾的行為人如果你不正面對抗的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
6947.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
6965.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他會對你變本加厲他曉得你是一個不會主張自己權利的人所以你絕對跑不掉那我們的態度都是屈逼啊都是屈逼啊而且非常不好你越屈逼他越興奮他曉得你越好欺負這裡我跟大家分享一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
6966.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
6994.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們的立法委員有個李燕秀李立委他是我們這個選區南港選區的他的先生侯冠群先生侯冠群先生將相生了以前做過市議員他對兩百台北市的兩百位女警做了一個調查問台北市的女警說你在執勤的時候有沒有被性騷擾不愉快的經驗結果居然有百分之二十說有 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
6995.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7023.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
但是他問這些女警說你被性騷擾的時候你採取什麼樣的態度居然大多數都是採取躲開當作沒有那回事各位這個就是很錯誤的對不對就屈臂嘛對不對他更欺負你敢當面喝止我是警察你怎麼憑什麼欺負我或者說或者說回去跟長官報告說我在執勤的時候被欺負是少數 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7025.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7054.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以你看看我們第一線的執法人員對性騷擾的認識還是這麼的薄弱所以大家千萬記住絕對不要屈臂不要漠視不要漠視要把它當一回事第二個注意自己本身的言行舉止大家說焦教授你講了這半天還是責怪被害人嘛我在職場上我愛穿東東裝愛穿超級迷你圈愛穿愛把肚臍露出來是我的自由啊愛講一些有的沒的是我自由但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7055.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7076.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們國家還沒有那麼進步我這裡跟大家舉個例子我曾經到個公部門去演講為了拉近我跟這個聽眾的距離我特別問他們說你們單位裡頭有沒有皇帝或者皇后結果有一位女性的聽眾大剌剌地站起來說我是本單位的皇太后 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7078.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7102.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
各位他是皇太后他有沒有資格告人家對他言語是他有資格但是他會輸因為我們很難判定這個人家對他的言語的這方面是他歡迎還是不歡迎的他比別人還黃嘛對不對所以大家還是要注意自己本身的衣著言行絕對沒有什麼責怪對他言語那發生以後我剛剛講的要講出來寫下來現在更進步了line |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7104.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7106.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7126.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7136.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
臨校畢業的助理教授帶著他的太太跟小孩回國服務前途四季 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7137.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7142.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：從《性騷擾三法》之最新修正談工作場所性騷擾之防治與處理：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7168.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7177.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個女學生穿那天天氣比較熱穿得比較暴露這個男老師那天不要吃錯了什麼藥居然要強吻這個女學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7178.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7205.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那這個女學生我們知道我剛講了她有同居的男友拼命的抵抗拼命的抵抗可是老師的力氣比較大被老師強吻得逞這個女學生非常生氣把這個老師推倒甚至跌倒在地上就衝出去了現在的年輕人的感情世界有時候很難捉摸不到一個月她跟她男朋友鬧翻了就搬出來了搬出來就居然跟這個老師走在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7206.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7228.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
跟這個老師走來發生了合意的私生戀的合意的性行為結果被師母發現了以後棒打鴛鴦又把所有的罪案全部取消掉了這個女學生大概也是有高人指點覺得這個老師好像不太負責任就到學校去告這個老師那天下午曾經強吻她 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7229.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7256.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
強吻她然後被她推開這個事情這個是可以的我剛講過性騷擾是被害人歡迎不歡迎有沒有違反他的意願那強吻是一種肢體性的性騷擾所以學校的性騷擾會成立了馬上就開始調查馬上調查我們的召集人一個退休的女校長小學女校長一直問這個女孩子你有沒有跟別人講沒有 記不得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7257.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7259.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
你有沒有把事發的經過寫下來? |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7259.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7271.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
記不得了?我會召集人說你一定要記得喔你記不得我們沒辦法幫你填補你的記憶啊結果呢你回去你好好想想看有沒有跟別人講有沒有寫下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7272.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7286.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
不到兩天陳瓣小姐非常興奮地打電話來跟我們三個調查委員說老師他想起來了他那天被他的老師強吻以後他出去以後非常生氣就賴給他的幾個手帕交 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7288.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7307.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
說他被他的老師強吻我們的召集人說趕快把這個截圖拿過來送到資訊中心去做一個那個試測有沒有偽造或者變造如果沒有就趕快把它傳給我們調查委員結果都沒有就傳給我們我們三個委員看了以後都笑起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7308.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7322.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
他對他老師強吻了以後他出去line給他幾個手帕叫說今天下午到小胖的房間去討論到美國去論文的事情居然被他強吻得逞 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7323.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7347.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我拼命的抵抗可是他力氣好大真是有夠窩囊這個不歡迎的意思已經非常清楚了結果後頭突然又動了一句話出來讓我們三個委員差點沒笑他居然動出一句話出來他的嘴巴好臭不歡迎的東西要躍然紙上躍然紙上所以這個老師有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
7348.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
7363.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
因為後來這個學生被搶我的那天晚上也寫個mail給這個老師老師沒有回他的說老師我今天到你房間裡頭你為什麼對我做這樣的事情請你給我一個合理的解釋要不然以後不敢到你的房間去 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
7364.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
7381.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以這個案子還是成立的所以大家記住我們所有的性騷擾是以被害人的觀點不會有行為因為從行為人的觀點他會淡化美化他的行為對不對所以都不能成立的我們甚至對身心障礙者是行為人 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
7382.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
7410.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
大家說身心障礙者很可憐他都不只要自己的行為做出什麼樣的行為我們還是以被害人的觀點我們會做出成立但是通常是不罰因為他沒有行為能力對不對 沒有行為能力等等好 所以大家可是大家千萬記住喔今天上課同學講你要騷擾人家絕對不能用line跟email因為反走過必留下痕跡我們最喜歡處理這個electronic sexual harassment好 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
7412.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
7426.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
公共場所怎麼辦?萬一在公共場所怎麼辦?報警我這裡寫報警絕對不要自行繼續處理為什麼?我們有很多的女性團體說以暴制暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
7427.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
7449.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
他欺負我要打回去打回去我今天沒有時間講那個以道治道的案子千萬不要這樣做為什麼因為他欺負你沒有人看到可是你打他誰都看到了而且你在慎怒的情況之下你所採取的反制作為往往會超出比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
7450.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
7473.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
他也不過模擬一下結果你一腳踹過去把大家下一代給解決了對不對千萬不要這樣報警以前我們台灣的警察在《性騷擾防治法》的時候非常排斥認為增加他的勤務可是經過了將近15年的模擬以後他們懂了而且我們從《性騷擾防治法》也學會了怎麼去處理後面的《跟蹤騷擾防治法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
7475.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
7497.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以大家記住報警處理在專業服務或者一般服務也是報警處理比較好恐怖群人恐怖群人也是一樣老師最近越來越用這個法律來處理單位裡頭的恐怖群人你們服務的地方可能在單位裡頭就有恐怖群人 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
7498.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
7520.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
也有可能你們的同仁因為不曉得怎麼處理感情的問題變成恐怖情人去欺負外頭的人而且也有可能你們的同仁被外面的恐怖情人所侵擾這個時候我覺得立法院一定要把我們的《跟蹤騷擾防治法》擺進來《跟蹤騷擾防治法》不是一個好的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
7522.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
7547.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
不是一個好的法律我剛講過如果你犯了那八種的跟蹤騷擾行為例如你知道哪個人在哪裡你去跟蹤他 送禮物給他過度的追求或者什麼東西都構成跟蹤騷擾到警察局去報案以後警察局會發一個書面告誡如果你違反了書面告誡一年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
7548.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
7560.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
然後行為在書面告誡都沒辦法處理的時候到法院去申請保護令到法院去申請保護令的時候違反了保護令三年以下有許徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
7562.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
7578.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
更糟糕的是什麼﹖如果你今天喜歡一個女孩子想跟她見面的時候再把水果刀想到這個水果攤買個梨子接面的時候削個梨子給她吃結果法院認為你攜帶凶器五年以下有歧途性 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
7579.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
7596.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
而且還有預防性的羈押所以非常的嚴格非常的不人道好多的丘比特都被扼殺掉了所以呢可是拿來嚇一嚇單位裡頭的恐怖型人告訴他說你在這樣的追人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
7598.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
7617.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
不放的話 萬一他到警察局去用跟蹤騷擾防治法會吃刑事官司將來你的前途你的出國你的什麼東西參加國家考試什麼都會受到限制所以我們現在主要是拿這個法律來嚇嚇單位裡頭的恐怖群演 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
7620.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
7635.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我今天的上課還有其他的要注意的大家要記住所有的性騷擾都是以被害人的觀點不可能用行為人的觀點而且他要是合理的被害人而且我們要所有的情況都做調查因愛深恨,暇願報復很少一問就問出來不要責怪被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
7641.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
7668.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
有時候我們看到被害人來接受我們訪談的時候鼻子還穿了那個兩個耳朵都戴了什麼東西騎裝衣服或什麼有些的委員會覺得這種人可能對性騷擾的容忍度會比較高這是錯的這是錯的任何人都會犯錯絕對不要被行為人的政治地位、經濟地位、社會地位、學術地位所迷惑 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
7669.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
7692.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
有人問我說中央研究院的院士是全世界最有學問的華人也會性騷擾別人嗎我說沒辦過但是萬一真的發生我一點都不意外院士也是人啊大家記不記得我們的中研院我的同學啊翁啟惠翁院長因為浩鼎案被立法委員圍剿的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
7693.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
7702.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
居然講了一句話幫忙我很大他跟立法委員講什麼他說中研院那些研究科學的人都是怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
7703.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
7725.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們中研院絕不缺科學怪人學富五居實驗做的全世界第一流可是做人做事可能小學都畢不了業所以什麼人都可能犯錯追求也可能構成性騷擾然後下面兩個很可惜我現在時間不夠了性尋思跟性沒有關聯的行為都會構成性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
7727.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
7729.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我相信立法院是社會的索引也會有同樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
7754.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
7775.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我的報告就大概到這個點我的觀念是做得再好傷害都造成最好是預防最好是預防可是有人就是我們要有正確的性別意識那我本來是想留下一些留下一些Q&A的時間可是我時間不夠了我把我的email留在這 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
7776.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
7792.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
各個朋友如果有任何的這方面的問題都選沒有給我因為有時候在這個場合裡頭講這些東西有點敏感或者影響到這個隱私權的問題可是你只要選沒有給我我剛講過我大概處理了一千四百多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
7794.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
7807.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
關於這種諮詢的案件我自己沒辦法處理的我也會介紹你比較Qualified的人來協助你們請大家不要客氣那我想我今天的報告就到這個地方告一段落非常謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
7815.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
7828.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
非常感謝江蔣做為我們帶來的精彩解說各位同仁我們在各個柱子以及後方都設有滿意度調查的QR Code再請各位抽空再幫我們填寫今天的課程就到此結束感謝各位的參與 |