| IVOD_ID |
15689 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15689 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-04T08:31:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-04T12:49:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:17:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc471ce9aeb73a155c67ad8ab126936a2d3be8d109af184be4c8048fb141d644ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:35 - 12:49:00 |
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報告委員會出席委員11人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開始開會那我們進行報告事項宣讀上次會議的意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2083.393 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第1次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年2月29日星期四上午9時7分至9時23分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員陳文俊宇等13人主席中委員嘉賓報告事項一本院第11屆第1會期各委員會召集委員選舉時間及地點夜經本院第11屆第1會期第1次會議決定遭案通過再案 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2109.545 |
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2136.761 |
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而宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉而明測選舉事項選舉第11屆第1會期本會召集委員一請推舉發票員決定請翁文小林擔任請推舉唱票員決定請陳文俊宇擔任請推舉計票員決定請謝文龍介擔任請推舉監票員決定請沈委員發會擔任二選舉結果出席為13人發出票數13張有效票13張無效票0張 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2137.661 |
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2139.181 |
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請問各位就上一次的會議事錄有沒有錯誤或有遺漏的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2167.917 |
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沒有的話我們議事務的部分就確定我們現在介紹一下到場的委員現在是只有三位第一位是翁小林委員黃國昌委員謝榮介委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2200.126 |
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是報告主席我這邊我有個程序發言我想針對可以請說針對這個程序來進行一個提問就是因為本委員會的整個座位的安排跟其他委員會有很大的不同那我不知道這個是什麼原因那是不是有可能就是可以比照其他的委員會辦理這樣一視同仁而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2225.609 |
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2230.234 |
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我們也有很多委員跟我反映或是也有媒體跟我反映過就是我們的這個會議室的結構跟另外7個委員會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2250.748 |
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2259.135 |
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那我也覺得這樣似乎不是很妥啦因為總是最好是能夠八個委員會都是一視同仁不是說我們這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2260.731 |
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2261.592 |
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還是要有共識就是三黨的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2292.064 |
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2292.084 |
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黃委員請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2319.843 |
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2342.76 |
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謝謝主席,的確如同主席所講的這個委員會,空間佈置的改善是在2016年的時候那那個時候因為2016年的時候有很多國會改革的法案那本來是希望說如果能夠仿效像國外聽證程序的進行的時候那看藉由空間的改善是不是可以達到這樣的效果 |
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2344.06 |
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2358.553 |
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當初我必須要說做這樣子空間布置的改變的委員其實是利益良善他沒有什麼不好的意思但不過也如同主席所講的就是看起來這幾年 |
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2360.975 |
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2379.053 |
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降下來,空間的改善不僅沒有辦法達到當初所想要達到的目的,反而有多所不變。既然今天有司法法制委員會的委員依照程序提的這樣子,這個事情可能跟司法法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2380.174 |
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2409.574 |
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接下來如何運作比較有關係所以我是不是建議看是不是翁委員這邊就正式提一個臨時的提案然後今天我們在委員會當中那如果主席認為適當的話我們就來進行處理那假設如果多數的委員都贊成的話那接下來再由委員會這邊的同仁跟秘書處那邊去聯繫看要如何的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2410.094 |
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2422.91 |
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請說 |
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2424.452 |
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2448.037 |
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這個我建議這個有關這個空間配置的改變因為他也會牽涉到我們立法院的秘書處還有包括這個空間配置改變他不是只有裝潢拆掉而已他所有的大概室內配線什麼這些設施都必須要重新布置裝潢那這部分我建議是不是是不是我們就不用在會議上面用 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2449.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2449.752 |
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國昌委員請問這個想法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2478.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2494.676 |
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那就要看齁 看 呃 剛18位委員講的是委員會的協商還是院會的協商 齁 因為這個跟司法法制委員會當然 任何空間的配置 立法院即使換一個垃圾桶都需要秘書處 統人的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2497.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2515.849 |
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那只不過說這個整個在運作上面顯然是司法法制委員會的事情跟其他7個委員會一點關係都沒有所以當然我也認同程序上我們未必今天要花時間來處理這件事情如果大家都有共識的話那只不過說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2517.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2530.582 |
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如果整個方向上面多數的意見是贊成改變的話那我就認為一塊不一次那理由是說空間的配置如同剛剛省委員所講的他會牽涉到了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2531.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2559.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那些可能質詢跟備詢台要把它移回來難免會有一些時間上面的要求那只不過說如果能夠盡速做一個決定那也便於本院秘書處或者是議事處乃至於總務處那邊的同仁他們找一個適當的時間空檔來做這個處理那是說要在委員會上面正式處理還是會後 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2560.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2588.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那主席要召集司法法制委員會的委員們開一個程序上面的事項的討論這個我都沒意見那我是認為說既然有委員提了這個案子那我們就盡速把這個案子給處理那先進行今天正式的議程那今天正式的議程處理完了以後再來處理這個程序上面的事項或許也是一個值得思考的安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2593.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2606.958 |
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我對黃總召的意見我是有認同覺得說這個事情要透過黨團來討論那因為畢竟在第9屆的時候黃委員也在那是不是我這樣聽到不是要黨團來討論嗎我聽到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2614.398 |
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2641.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我只聽到後半啦,好好好,那可能我誤會我只聽到黃委員的後半因為他說他對於是否交付黨團結上沒有意見,那我以為他也認同啦那基本上呢,因為我們在第九屆的時候,這個委員會的設置那在當年要說明一下當時的一個現場的狀況因為在第九屆的第一年,當時呢,朝野為了一個前瞻基礎建設的預算曾經發生了相當多的會場上的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2642.981 |
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2670.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那麼最慘烈的是在九流大禮堂那如果大家願意去釣一下那時候的歷史影片可以看得很清楚那時候在我們最後排的媒體那時候都帶著這個很有份量的攝影器材那為了到主席台前去攝取畫面反而形成了對於在前面議事衝突當中有肢體互動的委員一些傷害我個人也受傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2672.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2694.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我的受傷不見得是來自於推擠而是來自於後面媒體的壓力體重壓在雙方的身上所造成的傷害那因此在那個時候朝野都同意先找一個委員會將我們委員的問政空間跟媒體的採訪空間適度做個區隔甚至到現在九樓大禮堂大家去看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2695.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2721.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那個全選9樓的會議室啊它事實上媒體被安排的採訪空間是在2樓它在上面有一個大概類似一個像旁聽席的那樣的設置但是呢那樣的一個設置對於媒體來講他們在取鏡頭上由高而下鏡頭的變化比較少後來我在第10屆的後面3年都在財政委員會財政委員會就形成一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2722.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2745.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沒有要求媒體到上面的一個媒體專用席而允許他們是在九樓大禮堂最後面所以後來財政委員會在九樓大禮堂的使用媒體的確很配合都是在九樓大禮堂的最後面都不會在我們會議進行中衝到我們會議桌的前面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2746.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2766.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那我們覺得也達到同樣的效果因此在第9屆到第10屆這8年以來只有我們302司法法制委員會為了要做示範我們先講媒體採訪區做的區隔那其他委員會本來是要看我們執行的狀況再來做進一步的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2767.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2791.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那後來這個改善在九樓大禮堂已經形成了一個比較穩定的慣例了所以後續的其他的工程其他委員會就沒有跟進所以我說這個事情我後來一聽到黃委員的意見我是有部分的認同當然這不是他的原意我誤會了就是說我們這樣的一個變更在當年是經過有那樣的環境時空背景之下所做的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2792.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2818.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那如果現在要調整是其他的委員會比照我們司法法制委員會302會議的建制將媒體區跟會議區隔開還是把這個改回原來媒體區跟會議區完全沒有區隔的情況我是覺得是不是由朝野各黨團到請我們韓院長來進行協商因為這個不是涉及到一個司法法制委員的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2819.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2834.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
當時是基於全院8個委員會的需求請司法法制委員會先做個示範那這個示範到底是可行不可行是要跟進還是要恢復原狀我建請是由主席啊建請是不是由我們韓院長召集這個8個委員會來進行黨團協商 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2847.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2869.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席各位委員,不好意思我剛進來,也許還不是完全基本狀況,可能談的就是這個非議事的布置的問題嘛。我跟你們坦白說,過去有做這樣的布置,非常有意見。為什麼呢?因為議會執行的時候,我們過去就很習慣站著,老氣血。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2873.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2892.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那個媒體也要提醒,那個還沒有像阿借,坦白講又斜斜的,所以很不方便可是為什麼會這樣呢?當然講白了就是第3個屆嘛,第9屆,小段、賴岳康 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2896.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2916.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那很堅實,我在黨內也跟他講,那沒有辦法溝通那算了沒有關係,很堅實,又還沒有什麼意見,就試看看,試看看那今天我們重新討論這個問題,我認為啦我們今天的議程照策略,等一下用臨時提案來處理就好了我覺得這很簡單處理,這幾兩天就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2926.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2933.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
剛才佳敏講的是有道理,所謂的主意是說,大家開會,你現在下去內政委員會去看,根本沒有辦法開會啊。在這一場,高雄市委這一場、廣泊市這一場,全部媒體級的,到現在也沒辦法開會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2942.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2967.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以小段那時候就把媒體放在那一區不讓他們進來這樣有一個很好的空間這個牽涉到議員改建的問題議員的會議室坦白講60名人你把他們牽到這裡來的時候以前是小學嘛當然是不符合一個國會的樣態會議室的大小怎麼配置都有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2968.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2991.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以呢,到陰險就落的時候,就把它改為那媒體站在那一區,這樣比較安心的空間這也是一撮奧特利啦那今天要改變齁,那天副總長有跟我講我說我們這樣做的對面齁,你可以看到我的眼睛 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2993.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3009.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
有時候總預算審查的時候,要用兩個房間,人員要進來說明預算,都要排一大堆,在三樓上面太小的空間,而且每個都窺著一個,所以後來這個會議室變成什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3012.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3013.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 謝謝客會委員 是 羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3040.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3060.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我倒是蠻認同柯委員的提議啦我這件事也不用弄到太複雜那如果說有媒體的那個隔開保持我們會議進行順利的這個需求我們可以維持限制但實際上也就是多兩個質詢台嘛那我想說剛剛柯總召的這個建議我倒是蠻認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3061.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3086.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是我覺得用什麼程序來處理我也是贊同我們國參委員講的越快越好因為我們盡快讓我們這個我們司法法制整個的問政我們能夠趕快順利所以我覺得是越快越好啦以上那今天齁程序先照常進行等一下一個臨時提案提出來每個人都請這麼多人然後再送朝廷相約吧再處理後續的程序就可以了應該都有機會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3091.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3115.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那這樣齁 各位委員我想說是不是說麻煩翁委員用一個書面或是等下提那個臨時提案那我們就 因為我想說其實大家都蠻共識的嘛沒有什麼爭議嘛就蠻共 我就都有共識了那待會提個臨時提案那我們這邊就直接把它拆出去好嗎 好 謝謝各位那先跟各位委員說聲抱歉 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3116.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3116.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
先介紹一下應邀列席的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3142.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3170.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
司法院秘書長吳三龍秘書長民事廳廳長周梅芳廳長行事廳廳長李踏任行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡怡少年及家事廳廳長謝敬惠司法行政廳廳長高玉順 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3174.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3180.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
憲法法庭書記廳廳長 楊浩清秘書處處長 楊思璇公共關係處處長 劉格倫新聞及法治宣導處處長 陳庭裕人事處處長 陳美瞳資訊處處長 何君豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3199.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3201.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席各位委員各位先生各位女士 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3227.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3254.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
本人僅代表司法院向貴委員會報告司法院本年度的立法計畫第一項是關於刑事訴訟法第245條及245條之一修正草案為了完善刑事訴訟法關於被告訴訟前的保障以偵查行論中辯護前以及所為限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3256.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3281.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
或禁止．其救濟等事項．有徵修相關規範的必要．因此擬計刑事訴訟法第245條及245條之一修正草案第二項修法是關於刑事訴訟法．非侵入制裁證部分條文修正草案是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3283.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3303.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
完善刑事訴訟法關於檢察事務官、司法警察官、司法警察調查及說證之必要處分﹐所應踐行的正當法律程序﹐所以有徵修相當規範的必要﹐因此擬計刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3306.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3309.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那第三項是關於刑事訴訟法第126條第441條修正草案為了增進 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3317.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3336.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
．法院程系效能以及兼顧當事人訴訟前意．因此修正民事訴訟法第126條及441條．使質答言得為法院內的文事送達．並規定在監所之當事人一上訴期間．向監所長官提出上訴狀．視為上訴期間之上訴． |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3341.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3368.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
第4項修法．是關於法院執執法．部分條文修正草案．為了協治財經金融會計及營商工程專業案件．高等法院有徵涉司法事務官之必要．另外為了提供良好的司法硬體設備．目前已有多項籤件工程進行中．高等法院現有編制． |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3369.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3370.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
以上這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3391.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3419.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個法案本願陸力發展透明公正有效力的現代化法制實現保障民眾事頌權益值得敬愛的司法敬請各位委員主教此外為了要增進少年事件的少年非性調查評估及處議需要增補足夠的少年調查保護人力並且為了要 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3421.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3446.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
增進解決少年及家事問題．優化處理少年家事案件的體制．將規劃成立北部少年及家事法院．又因近年來民刑事宜送案件大量增加．需要增補足夠的法官書記官等人力照料．因此總言而法所規定本院及所屬機關總言而． |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3449.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3475.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
上限一萬五千人．有不乎使用的問題．敬請各位委員協志與指教以上報告謝謝謝謝秘書長那青灣代表已經報告完畢了那相關的書面報告內容再麻煩各位參閱並且列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3480.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3480.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3509.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3527.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
請教一下秘書長對於我們現在檢警不管是在查緝毒品查緝私菸追蹤組織犯罪或者是在追蹤詐騙集團的時候他們用GPS追蹤定位器這樣子的一個證據收集有沒有證據能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3530.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3541.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這一部分在目前署上就這一部分都在就涉及到個案他會就個案情形來 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3543.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3569.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
來做一些認定我直接跟秘書長講啦那不是針對個案的情形來做認定啦根本就沒有證據能力嘛僅僅用GPS辦案根本沒有證據能力最高法院都有判決了你今天還坐在這邊是個案認定我們海巡署的同仁非常辛苦啊查緝私淹用GPS去追蹤那些走資集團的行蹤後來被判刑欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3570.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3595.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
縱安法院在判決裡面說這個GPS去追蹤行蹤是違法的不僅沒有證據能力還有妨礙秘密罪的問題那我的問題就來了縱安法院自己都講了GPS辦案在刑事偵查上面有它的必要欠缺法源的依據應該要趕快修法那為什麼到目前為止從這個案子出來已經幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3598.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3623.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
司法院為什麼提的立法計畫裡面針對刑事訴訟法這個部分應該要補強他的證據能力完全沒有任何立法計畫請秘書長說明委員的提示很重要這不是我的提示啦這是最高法院法官的提示啦那這一部分這個修法方面我們會請我們刑事廳會進訴來說你說你們會請你們刑事廳進訴來演你什麼時候要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3628.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3645.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
什麼時候要提出來這個就因為一般修法會有一定的流程對嘛我剛剛就秀給祕書長你看一下這個是最高法院106年台上至3788號刑事判決這判決裡面最高法院的法官就寫得很清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3646.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3673.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
要趕快推動修法啊要不然我們的那些檢警人員去查緝私菸結果最後被妨害秘密罪辦欸秘書長你不會覺得很離譜嗎來我進一步問啦我們從1992年到現在我們時事訴訟法針對強制處分的部分修法修了幾次關於GPSM化車等等科技偵查的部分推動修法修了幾次秘書長你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3676.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3703.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
不好意思我時間有限趕快針對問題回答關於跟委員所提示這個科技偵查還有保障法這一部分其實我們刑事廳都已經有相當的準備了都已經有準備了什麼時候提出來我直接跟秘書長講1992年到現在強制處分司法院刑事訴訟法修了快20次跟科技偵查有關係的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3705.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3717.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
秘書長你知道幾次嗎0次0次現在大家都是在期待說要推科技偵查法但問題是科技偵查法的條文秘書長你看過沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3718.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3740.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這一部分因為是屬於這個科技偵查及保障法是屬於法務部主管的我就知道你會這樣說你說科技偵查法是法務部主管的你實際去看裡面的條文每一個條文都是在處理刑事證據能力跟刑事強制處分的問題啊那為什麼會淪落到法務部的手上司法院不積極嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3741.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3770.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
至少門全選嘛結果這跟司法院沒有關係嘛但問題是你去看科技偵查法裡面的條文就像德國全部都規定在刑事訴訟法裡啊今天為什麼法務部他要推動特別法因為刑事訴訟法不修嘛司法院不動嘛你剛剛說你們科技偵查的條文都已經準備好了什麼時候可以提出來今天會後提供給我你們到底準備了哪些條文出來可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3772.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3795.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
剛剛秘書長說都準備好了嘛等一下會後提供給我可以嗎?這個這一部分我請我們刑事廳來說好沒有關係齁因為我沒有時間聽你在那邊拖啦會後請秘書長就你們已經準備好的條文提出來給我下一個問題法官跟法官關說針對個案進行關說來請問一下秘書長在我國構成什麼罪? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3802.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3811.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
香港歸該名者兩個人一個跟人家關說一個接受關說還進一步的去關說在我國刑事司法上面現在構成什麼罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3815.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3840.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個就是在有關的這個關說他應該在有一定的規定什麼規定講出來就是說這個涉及這個當然是個案啦個案我跟你講這不是審判中的個案這已經get over了已經決定了蕭永光什麼時候去跟高明哲關說高明哲什麼時候去跟另外一個女法官關說 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3842.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3843.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
防礙司法公正罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3864.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3872.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
現在有嗎我現在就具體問你啦蕭仰規也好高明哲也好這兩個人哪一個人受到什麼形式處罰有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3875.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3895.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那因為這個有時候涉及個案他一些政績事實認定的為什麼政績和政績事實啊來來來我跟秘書長講怎麼你當秘書長對於這些跟司法院業務這麼密切相關的怎麼看起來這麼不熟啊蕭永規高明哲兩個工程會都已經認定確定了事實已經認定完畢了這個案子也終結了 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3900.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3926.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
一個休職6年一個降二級改序大家看不下去啊法官關說司法這麼嚴重的事情一個休職6個月一個降二級改序秘書長你看得下去嗎這個因為懲戒跟刑事他的刑事案件他的這個我等一下再跟你講刑事案件啦就懲戒的部分你看得下去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3928.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3954.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
你覺得法官跟法官關說受到這種懲戒處分你認同嗎?因為現在在懲戒法院他也已經都法院化了那涉及個案他如何認定這個屬於個案你連一個基本的態度都沒有司法局秘書長應該有什麼態度?法官跟法官關說絕不寬戴還有資格當法官喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3955.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3973.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你為什麼當一個司法院的秘書長連這個基本態度都講不出來啊?有這麼困難嗎?這個...這個既然他有...有些他涉及到個案在...在處理啦齁我剛剛都已經跟你講這個案子已經GAME OVER了這不是信訴中的個案啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3975.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4003.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那現在他還是會有後續的案件嘛有後續案件我直接請教秘書長啊因為我非常震驚啊你對於司法不熟到這種程度可以當司法院秘書長不好意思啊吳法官您是法界的前輩我這樣說雖然很失禮但是人民對於司法的期待絕對不僅僅只有這個樣子請問司法院贊不贊成並不法官說罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4005.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4033.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
站不站成法官關說法官政治人物去關說法官應不應該接受刑事處罰現在我在問你的是立法政策喔現行法沒有規定啊你不熟然後在那邊講說什麼要看其他法規規定我作為一個法律人我負責任的跟你講現行對於關說司法沒有刑事處罰的規定period句號我現在是問立法政策的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4034.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4044.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
關說法官應不應該構成刑事犯罪你作為司法院秘書長的態度是什麼那這個關說當然不允許關說啊對!應不應該做刑事處罰那這個齁那這個我們當然這個整個因為這個已經不容許關說了嘛阿至於說要科不容許關說奇怪你講話怎麼不像法律人阿不容許關說請問法律效果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4063.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4089.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那當然涉及要必要修法或立法那另外一個層次的問題所以我現在在問嘛你作為司法院的秘書長司法院這麼贊成定不法關說罪怎麼一個基本的問題要混這麼久啊那當然我們我們尊重這個這個是不允許關說啦必要當然不允許關說嘛問題是可笑的事情現在關說司法就沒處罰嘛你不會覺得很荒謬嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4090.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4105.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那這個有必要的話那就來可以行事責任啊所以你贊成可以行事責任嗎那這個已經社會在變嘛需要的話那當然就好啦我繼續問齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4107.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4129.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
另外一個受不了的事情針對重大的貪污犯看得慢跑得快坐牢坐得短我現在先具體的請教零一四貪污的案件2012年10月起訴到現在判決還沒有確定審判拖延了這麼久針對這樣子審判的效率秘書長你滿意不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4131.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4131.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4149.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4163.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
在法院他處理這個過程一定要接受檢驗嘛一定要接受檢驗是那你剛剛說要努力嘛如何努力來跟大家說明一下當然在司法院方面啦我們會先是就是請法院要進士來 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4168.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4183.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
現在他以法官沒有幫他申請憲法法庭解釋為理由申請法官迴避我的問題很具體喔申請法官迴避依照刑事訴訟法18條第二款的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4185.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4210.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那這個這個就又變成涉及個案啦這不會涉及個案我現在是在請教你刑事訴訟法那個後面刑事廳的廳長上來協助好不好依照刑事訴訟法18條第2款申請法官迴避要停止訴訟程序嗎是不用嘛那我的問題來了為什麼他一申請迴避了以後高院的法官不開庭就改庭期可以這樣幹喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4213.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4241.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
像是刑事庭的法官連刑事訴訟法怎麼規定都忘了嗎?透過申請法官迴避來拖延訴訟程序不知道嗎?依照刑事訴訟法的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎?需要嗎?不需要他為什麼改庭期?他為什麼要拖延訴訟程序?這個是剛秘書長講的說這不對 要反省 要檢討 要盡速處理你們具體個案操作上就不是這樣嘛講空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4244.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4262.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
講空話最後那個主席不好意思再一分鐘就好我把今天最重要的問題麻煩最後一分鐘好最後一分鐘齁申請法官迴避的法定程序有因字型迴避嘛有申請迴避嘛請問我們色情的制度有一個迴避叫做施壓迴避嗎有嗎法官可以施壓另外一個法官之語就迴避嗎秘書長請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4271.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4292.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那當然不可以阿當然不可以阿如果要怎麼辦這個有些要涉及事實認定或政法沒有關係我今天在司法法制委員會公開具體檢舉喔這個驚人重犯中文字很了不起阿犯了大罪了以後到立法院裡面來請立委幫他修正交法要脫罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4294.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4310.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
結果被揭發了以後這個計謀沒有得逞結果他幹了什麼事情來在他審審要拖延訴訟程序一再申請法官迴避高院也駁回最高法院也駁回都確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4311.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4336.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
結果我今天要檢舉的一個問題 行政庭的庭長可以去施壓陳審法官 要他上圈自請迴避嗎好 那個就一分鐘到了是不是因為我們後面還有很多委員好 秘書長 這案子我今天在這邊公開檢舉請司法院回去徹查 徹查以後的結果不用跟我講 跟社會大眾交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4337.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4338.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
謝謝黃委員我們現在請登記第二會的沈委員發言謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4359.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4376.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
首先請教吳秘書長委員好秘書長好我們的國民法官法從去年1月1號開始實施到現在已經超過一年,一年多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4378.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4388.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那是不是能夠請秘書長說明一下這個國民黨法官法上路一年多由目前實施的概況他的狀況到底是怎麼樣簡單講一下做個簡單的評論就去年去年112年開始實施一共說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4397.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4417.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
一百零八件一百零八件那到目前到目前到這個省結了16件省結16件那到今年今年累計這樣一共有一百二十四件一百二十四件那這個根據這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4421.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4445.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
中正大學所做的調查到目前為止是認為滿意度有70%這是滿意度的部分那在這整個過程裡面那當然這個國民法官法實施它大概由我們對於這個我們整個司法系統來講是一個新的運作但是對一般國民來講它也是一個新的經驗一種新的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4447.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4465.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
在這個實施的一年裡面有沒有這個民眾被選任為這個這個國民法官但是他因為沒有正當理由拒絕而被罰還了有沒有目前沒有目前沒有目前沒有好那這個在這個我們原本齁這個過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4469.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4493.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個我們本來評估大概我們開始實施國民法官法之後我們評估大概一年這個國民法官的相關案件會有300件對不對我們原本評估的300件那過去一年結果是只有108件為什麼為什麼他他會比預估的的狀況少是因為符合這個第5條的這案件少呢還是因為第6條的排除的案件多是什麼樣狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4494.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4523.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這其中有一部分是涉及檢察官他很慎重來面對整個制度所以也會影響他們起訴的那個那個節奏跟時間因為這個畢竟還是要檢察官起訴過來也就是說這個秘書長也意思說這個比預期少是因為這個我們這個新制上路之後檢察官在這個這個起訴上面比較保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4523.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4524.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
108件統計到今天為止?到今天124件,去年108件 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4547.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4565.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
在過去在這一百我們不要講到一百二十四件在過去一百去年的第一年度的一百零八件裡面我們在檢討我們司法院有沒有檢討說在這個國民法實施之後這一年裡面這裡面有什麼樣的問題需要改進的有沒有我們自己有沒有檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4570.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4597.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
社會有檢討你們有沒有檢討我們都有評估委員會我知道我知道評估委員會的部分我等一下跟你溝通我現在是說我們自己司法院以這個秘書長你個人你對於這個實施的這一年你有什麼樣的評論因為這個加注我們民眾多元的意見之後會那有什麼樣的問題就是說讓有什麼需要檢討的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4598.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4611.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那我們當然齁這裡面一定有他的優缺點對我現在就要問說以以我不要講說你們這個什麼評估委員會的評估報告以這個秘書長你個人的的的做一個法律人你的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4613.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4632.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
有什麼樣的缺點在實施這一年裡面有什麼樣的問題應該也因為這個件數畢竟還沒有那麼多嘛所以有時候他整個這樣子啦社會上大概都就是說在這一年實施之後再有幾個評論大家對這個國民法案法實施之後的問題有很多的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4639.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4662.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主要的大概是兩個方向檢討一個就是說量刑方面的傾向由國民法官法下去參與刑事審判之後它的量刑上面它的傾向會有所改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4663.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4689.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
就是說因為國民他跟過去一般專業的法官他對於量刑的心理標準可能不同因此他在整個量刑心上面可能有所改變這是一般社會檢討的第一點第二點就是說在國民法官參與審判的過程裡面你這個辯護人的角色更加重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4690.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4714.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那這個辯護人的角色一般的這個職業律師他當然是沒有問題但是你遇到這個公設辯護人或是約聘辯護人的時候他在這個國民審判法的案件裡面他的表現就就可能就就沒有符合大家認為說在這樣國民參審的過程裡面這個辯護人應該扮演的角色或是他的量能也不足啦這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4716.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4731.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
改進跟檢討我們就是兩個問題在講而且盡快時間的關係這個量刑輕重因為有時候也涉及個案他一定都涉及當然每一個都涉及個案我今天是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4732.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4754.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為這個是這個是社會上面大家的看法因為國民參審的一般國民他的他的他的對於這個法感情上面他在量情上面他的傾向跟過去這個簡單的統計就可以看出來他跟過去的這個這個法官量情的的這個傾向整個有所改變這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的在這過經過一年之後有什麼樣的的因應之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4755.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4777.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們會提供一些參考的一些良性的因素因子來盡量的提供一些新的 怎麼樣提供 具體講怎麼樣提供就是我們會盡量透過現在AI的輔助系統來盡量收集相關的有關類型的一些良性的那個型度來 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4779.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4805.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
提供給提供給國民法官參考參考過過去類似的案件他的量刑的統計讓他們在量刑上面不會有有有有有過度的的形象是是是我就參考那另外就是說在辯護人那個能量這個具體這個具體好你們你們現在目前有這樣做嗎現在在已經有已經有提供給從什麼時候開始提供了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4806.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4824.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
都先前都有提供了從第一個案件開始就有提供那所以這不是改善啊就你們過去有提供的狀況還是這樣子所以這怎麼會是改善的方法呢那當然之前提供的有些資料可能沒有那麼我們會再更完整更新這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4828.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4842.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個秘書長你講這個很抽象啦很抽象什麼更完整更新你過去從第一個案子開始你們就有提供這個國民法官這些相關的資料到現在經過一年之後大家認為有這樣的問題之後你們有什麼改善之道你說我還是提供資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4843.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4870.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個蠻奇怪的我們會盡量來提供這方面的那個參考的案例那這個辯護量能不足的部分你們有什麼樣的改善之道就是說我們跟法湖基金會那個請他們那一邊要專門的那個法湖的律師來來處理這方面的案件那另外在不是不是不是這個秘書長你有沒有需要需要協助啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4872.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4893.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
有沒有需要協助我們那個刑事廳他對國民法官這一部分那廳長對這一部分也有很深入的理聽長我剛剛所提的問題你能不能有關這個辯護量能的部分現在委員的詢詢剛剛委員提到了民間所反映的兩個問題第一個是辯護量能不足的問題跟量刑傾向變動的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4895.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4895.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4913.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4916.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
11個約聘辯護人的公開申選原本的報名時間是到2月15號截止 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4938.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4965.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那現在又延到3月6號為什麼延我們延的原因是因為剛好在2月期間不是因為剛在2月期間剛好是過年那段時間大概有一兩個禮拜的時間那有相關律師想報名的可能他的相關資料就準備不足所以我們把評估之後可能把它延到3月6號那到目前報名的人數還沒有完全確定目前還沒有完全確定目前知道已經有11位有報名了我們要錄取11位只有11位報名 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4966.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4968.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
春節期間又不是突然發生休假的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4984.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5012.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那不是突然本來沒有要休假結果現在變休假這個部分我們也在我們的相關的一些薪資薪資集聚部分我們也適當的調高薪資那讓約聘這個約聘辯護人他第一個他只是我們剛剛所講辯護量能不足之其中之一端我們這是輔助性的真正的辯護應該還是回歸到律師市場或者是法輔基金會的就我們所知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5012.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5018.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
法律輔助基金會現在成立的刑事辯護中心這個我最後再請問一下這個有關這個我們擔任國民法官這個的國民目前這個有大家過去原本就有這樣的評估那確實也有發生這樣的狀況就是在這個對他們的擔任國民法官的國民之後他的這些心理狀況的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5040.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5066.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
有提供心理的輔導我知道有的地方法院有提供但你們現在有全部的地方法院都有提供相關的心理方面輔導嗎那有關於這部分我們提供完整的心理方面輔導就在審前之前我們做心理健康的測驗這每一個分院都有每個分院都有那這個最後這個剛剛有提到這個成效評估一年要成效評估現在已經超過一年了我們成效評估要什麼時候出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5067.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5071.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們報告預計從3月份從一般的認知報告已經先出來了那預計在9月份9月 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5074.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5082.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們3月份會陸續有幾個那成效評估的結案報告會出來最終在9月份會把整年度的結案報告會出來以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5104.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5130.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那最終在9月份全部會出來以上這個部分齁我還有很多問題要請教啦齁那這個部分我們我看未來我們還有機會我們在會後我再來請教我們李廳長啦齁這個部分我們最主要是這個國民我們這個畢竟是國家新實施的一個制度實施一年之後這個評估到特別重要啦因為他就是未來他過去我們未來會看到的問題在過去一年大概就呈現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5131.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5156.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那這個部分我希望說我們司法院這邊能夠更用心的來針對這些審判那我們請登記第三位的莊委員發言謝謝 謝謝趙委員還有我們司法院列席的官員我想我接續來請教一下秘書長秘書長其實我看司法法制委員會一般人都不太喜歡進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5158.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5170.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
很冷門啊 為什麼很冷門 大家充滿無力感這個社會啊 我們這個社會啊 對這個司法的一個滿意度啊你很清楚嗎 你滿意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5173.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5180.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
根據中正大學的調查滿意度都不高我從86年開始職業後來就誤入歧途到了政壇司法的內幕風氣是怎麼樣幾十年來的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5191.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5211.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
過去怎麼樣我怎麼會不清楚但只是說你說他有沒有進步他當然是有進步但是你有進步你相對的憲法賦予我們的司法人員尤其司法官這樣的一個終身的一個保障人民當然對你司法官這個整個審判制度你必須要有所期待嘛人家有跟你要求這是很合理的啊這很合理的所以我每個人我現在司法法座我都很不好意思不是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5217.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5236.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我講的比較大聲 自己罵自己罵得瘋了你知道嗎無濟於事啊 比較自己罵罵你們不會改進啊很怕把你們罵一罵 又要對你們一個打擊以後你們這個信心本來 老百姓就對你們這個期待那個期待就沒有那麼高了那個信心就那麼脆弱了再把你們這樣 把你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5243.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5259.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這我實在有一點從86年開始執業我都有一點捨不得了但是我會覺得我們司法界這樣辜負老百姓的一個期待真的辜負老百姓的期待我今天要就幾個問題來請教就是說我看個案的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5261.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5280.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
就我就不談了可是呢你從個案裡面你可以看出一些問題啊你像譬如說啊我們去看到最近啊就這些網紅的啊自導自演的你像譬如說我們的國人在柬埔寨啊去自導自演啊這是深入楷博園區然後說我們遭追捕毆打然後失聯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5284.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5295.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這個政府在那邊警察在那邊把他識破去把他給判刑啦那判刑之後 現在人家兩天就把他破案之後換成三天就把他拋下來了你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5297.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5315.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
行滿以後才可以驅逐出境這個是柬埔寨當然它這個是法制比較看起來是很落後的一個地方可是相對你說我們這個是一個民主法制的國家我們是一個進步的一個國家新加坡的網紅這句造假他說招這個旦夕然後這個我們台灣的網紅網安小雞 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5320.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5321.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
上位概念大家談的就是國家法益 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5350.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5367.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
是不是 你說柬埔寨他一定跟你說講的是國家法議啊 ㄟ 一樣的東西啊這種威權國家認為說 你都給我胡說八道 傷害我整個柬埔寨的國家的一個形象而且台灣就認為 那些小事 社會秩序維護而已 發落了發落了發落了 趕快那你有沒有什麼感觸 沒有 像這種很難去規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5375.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5385.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
其實我們在整個社會秩序維護法裡面他很多侵害那個法律裡面在立法院我們不敢把他無限上綱之後侵害到國家法律啊不敢啦不敢啦可是相對的你會不會覺得說對整個我們所有現行的很多的一個社會上引起這麼多紛擾的案件會不會過輕有沒有這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5402.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5429.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以我們法官也應該要傾聽各界的聲音社會民眾的意見我們都要傾聽法官是人法官也有七情六慾法官不是神那既然憲法賦予你這麼好的一個保障的時候法官有的認為說我只要不貪汙我只要不收錢的話我最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5431.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5456.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個也不對這也不對我自己去執業我反而會覺得我這輩子最大給我的最好的一個勳章是我去把那個臺北市政府前面那個警符門那個我去把那個黨魁把他給幹掉檢察官馬上把我起訴了把我起訴的檢察官現在都升官了位居高官了 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5459.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5480.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
可是對我來講我會覺得說這個是意識形態的不同我對堅持一個法律人的價值我會認為我做的是對的哪有你圖上去一個市政府把他圖上去一個黨會三天說是叫做骨雞我就去把你幹掉你是對我精神上的凌虐會被起訴法院判我無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5482.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5493.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這附帶一提啦我的意思是說法官他也有他個人的一個評價但問題就是說碰到整個法官對個案在審判的時候常常啊加入太多個人的主觀的一個看法你像比如說我剛那個案子我會認為說三天我怎麼會一般民眾的想法就是說古蹟古蹟沒想到也要死五十年了吃八年了那叫做古蹟 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5511.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5517.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那像譬如說我舉個例子啊前陣子發生我不要講立法院是誰啦我們一個民事案件啊雙方互控提起民事訴訟一審啦就是甲方敗訴啦就算立法院這個敗訴啦二審的逆轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5539.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5567.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
一審的法官其實我就去把他看那個判決那個判決就真的很好玩其實他都有去論述他的一個道理但是後來話捨天竺判決理由裡面就講一個人永遠活在別人的認可之下是莫大的悲哀他者言論是天堂或地獄都在人當下吐納一念之間願所有因他者言論所苦者名聲一念之名離苦得樂 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5569.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5570.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5574.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5602.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為按照我們法官倫理規範法官應該要中間中性應該要中性應該就是說要沒有色彩這哪怕一個判決理由裡面的你的理由交代的多鏗鏘有力光出現這種畫蛇天竺社會討論的又全部回歸到這句話你這個判決公不公正到底有沒有理由人家不想看人家說你這個法官怎麼這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5604.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5615.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這你們司法院家你們要特別喔要好好的去告誡不要說告誡你自己要有法官要有一個行為的規範該怎麼審判怎麼會不知道呢你現在動作你是刑你現在動作你現在站在那個審判庭裡面法判簽了你現在可以在那好像愛怎麼愛怎麼講愛怎麼加入自己的意見就可以那個時候他是代表國家欸阿不然他就說你幾年你幾年人跟人可以講幾年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5635.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5647.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們可以去跟選民講說 欸你幾年 你幾年 你幾年喔 天啊 跟老爺的事你法官在判的時候 你也不叫法官 你這代表國家 賦予你這個公權力 那你在那邊胡說八道 這也不對我看那個越怪的判決 我越喜歡看 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5652.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5668.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
越不符合社會期待的他敢這樣判其實理由都講的論述的很充分只是到最後那個判決結果邏輯推演到就剛好跟法國民的法律感情剛好產生衝突可是這個不是這個叫化死而天竺你要避免啦秘書長這不行啦這不行啦你去看2022年世界我們我看這個瑞士洛杉磯管理學院IMD我們司法的公正性我們是不斷進步欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5681.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5681.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
臺灣民眾對法官對司法的公正性的滿意度30幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5697.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5713.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
三十幾趴你說立法院想喜歡罵你立法院根本就管不到你們除了預算以外其他很難去監督到你們可是重點是說你司法身為一個法律人司法界你這個整個司法受民眾的一個信賴領人民的高薪 俸祿 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5721.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5737.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
達成人民對基本司法的一個信賴這是卑微的要求啊我最近看到你們那個臺南那個法官那個院長退休他去提提到啊說整個啊現在案件的審不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5742.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5747.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
有很多人來我們合作說我們的案件怎麼那麼慢?是法官把我們折騰了嗎?檢察官把我們折騰了嗎?我們就要好好解釋,歡迎大家的大家的案件沒辦法慢慢的審,慢慢的審一定會審到你的可是我們這個法官案量,或者檢察官案量這麼大我看那個院長當時講說,不然檢查中偵查當中的案件,一副調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5770.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5774.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
看能不能這樣救救法官,救救檢察官,也讓他們這樣,案量就沒辦法降低。我們的卡邨現在又差多少,差多少,如果在你的認知裡面。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5783.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5812.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以這個就是說那個那個結案的如何符合民眾的那個需求就是說還是要還是要在適當時間就要結果可是我們一直在補人一直在補人補到最後你從院長退下來都跟你說這個到最後什麼詐欺案件這種案件的一個增加都會變成壓垮司法人員最後的一根稻草 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5813.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5817.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
徵查中一副調節也不太對我如果檢察官你又非告訴哪一份案件叫我全部都一副調節我要再刑事案件我還是要繼續偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5842.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5854.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這檢察官又沒有什麼誘因?那院長講的跟檢察官的心態就不一定對囉?你怎麼調解?我看你只司法院到法務部那裡你就好好去你好好做一個調解的阿光有人喊沒有人解決?你會看完 我要問你會看完 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5864.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5892.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為當然這個效率是蠻重要的啦是很重要那一方面這個確實近年來那個案件確實也急速增加很多啦那個量那個案件量確實也很多啦是啦案件多案件多你也要有一個想法案件多會越來越多啊會越來越多啊詐欺案件一定越來越多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5893.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5906.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
洗錢的也越來越多啊我們立法院的立法都已經接近民粹了在我看來都已經接近民粹了一直在增加一直在增加罪行一直在加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5908.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5918.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這已經顛覆法律人員：司法人員的邏輯了啦過去我們在看最重的 齁 最重的國家法益 現在在國家法益 絕當 齁 再來 欸 搞不好那是人身法益 搞不好那是財產法益 以前那是算誰嫁的 你知不知道 現在都當病了 都當病了 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5928.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5931.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我那個罪騙人家錢那個很嚴重連續一份這個也一罪一罰再來加重我們一直在加重可是我們全部都沒有解決事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5945.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5958.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
毒品的一直加重,販賣一直加重一直加重我以前在做律師的時候,去法院的時候我去裡面看的時候,我問過典獄長你現在關在這裡,毒品犯罪的多少?17%我做立法會第8屆第9屆第10屆,現在第11屆我去裡面問問你現在關在這裡的販毒的多少?52% |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5973.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5990.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們這個立法院亂搞嘛你們也不敢講話嘛然後大家都提出來的法案全部都是民粹嘛根本就不是為這個國家為這個社會在建立一個制度在解決事情啊你們跟我們這個好犀利啊你們叫做法律專家欸立法院的專家比你們少少多了你們也不敢提出你們的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6000.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6025.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
要有態度啦 要有態度啦 因為時間的問題接下來我們要很多的機會 大家可以互相來討論我很不愛問人的啦 也很不愛罵人的啦 罵人就沒意思了罵人就跟你罵到五年了 公信你都已經在嫁了 媽媽還在你司法公信你 把你摧毀但是有時候真的讓人生氣 你們不改進也不行啦 好不好 這真的要加油啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6026.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6026.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
邀請登記第4位羅委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6057.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6078.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
主席還有我們吳秘書長我想要根據那個黃國昌委員他剛剛的質詢的內容我要再度確認一件事情請問司法院支持制定防害司法公正罪懲治關說司法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6081.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6084.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
吳秘書長,司法院支持懲治關說司法的行為嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6101.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6114.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我是傾向應該是可以往這個方向來你傾向你今天代表誰出來答詢的就傾向是可以往這個方向來你就是司法院的代表坐在這個地方你沒有個人立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6115.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6136.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
你只有司法院的立場我再問你一次你認為關說司法是不是應該要懲治那這個是不容許嘛不容許那不需要立法來懲治那有需要立法來刻以刑事責任那就要刻了所以你支持立法刻以刑事責任嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6137.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6139.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
法官關說法官有沒有罪有沒有刑事責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6161.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6182.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
不要再拿個案推脫我再問你齁邱泰山我們陸委會主委在擔任國安會諮詢委員期間也涉及關說司法為什麼他可以全身而退為什麼我告訴你為什麼因為我們現在沒有關說司法罪啊關說司法無罪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6183.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6192.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
不是嗎那請問你關說司法到底該不該成為一個刑事責任的一個法律構成刑事責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6194.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6215.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
社會在變遷有需要當然就要過程這跟社會變遷什麼關係?你什麼時候當法官的?你哪一年開始當法官的?在民國72年那請問民國72年的時候你就認同當時社會狀態是容許關說司法嗎?社會一直在變遷以目前的屬空環境好我再問您您知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6218.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6246.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
過去去年您跟行政院法務部一起召開司法改革重點成效記者會當時許中立院長說民眾對於司法改革已經由不信任轉為信任不滿意轉為滿意司法改革已經獲得多數民眾的認同你認同我們許院長說的這句話嗎司法改革已經獲得多數民眾的認同了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6248.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6273.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那這個因為各種民意調查它不同的取樣你也知道民意調查站在這句話的對立面嘛同年度民間團體臺灣公民人權聯盟所做的調查四成八的民眾不滿意司法改革五成五認為臺灣司法不公正五成二不滿意法官的表現去年中正大學犯罪研究中心做的民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6274.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6293.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對於法官可公正公平審理與判決時事案件只有3乘2的民眾正面肯定而今年中正大學民調也只有3乘3的正面肯定看起來人民的意見跟許中立院長的是我感覺良好差別蠻大的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6294.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6323.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以這些民調都不準啦因為不同的民調不同的調查方式都不準啦沒有關係我就跟你講一個根本的問題嘛現在我們司法院你可以自我感覺良好覺得司法改革有成績人民對於司法改革已經很認同可是呢事實上法官的信任度在歷次這些民間的調查當中都遠遠落後檢察官跟警察你不覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6324.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6342.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
司法院有責任去讓人民更加認同司法嗎有沒有這個責任那我告訴你為什麼大家對司法這麼的不滿意司改會議提出了哪些司法改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6343.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6368.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
制定公義階幣者保護法堅實並提升第一審審判品質設立司法科學委員會提升鑑定品質制定調解基本法建立獨立之刑事冤案特別救濟制度強化冤案受害人之名譽回復及社會復歸請問這些改革法案進展如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6369.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6398.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
因為有些是屬於因為在司法院跟法務部之間有一個分工又要推給法務部了又要推給法務部了嗎我告訴你最關鍵的原因就是請問到現在關說司法都無罪人民憑什麼相信司法我只問今天我們秘書長你也當過法官你有聽過一句話以前叫有錢判生無錢判死嗎有沒有聽過 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6400.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6427.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
有沒有聽過這句話我告訴你如果涉及金錢就有所謂的收受不正利跟賄賂的問題啦所以這部分是有罪啦所以我告訴你現在不是有錢判生無錢判死現在叫有權判生無權判死為什麼我想請問你一般生走小民 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6428.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6451.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
有能力關說司法嗎?請問有能力關說司法都是哪些人?你告訴我過去的例子相規的案子是誰去關說司法?是法官去關說司法今天我們看到的行政首長邱泰山當過法務部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6453.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6465.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他卸任之後也去關說司法包括本院的我們柯建民委員也能夠有能力關說司法請問這三個關說司法的拍樣現在有沒有罪報告我拜託喔秘書長有罪沒罪齁就是有跟沒有啦沒有個案問題啦現在有沒有妨礙司法公認罪嘛連這個都答不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6481.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6483.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
司法院人證都答不出來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6483.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6484.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
不至於吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6484.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6498.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
有沒有嘛?那該修法就要修法現在就是沒有啊 該修法就修法 你喊多少年?請問 妨害司法公正罪有沒有列入你們自己講的司法改革國事會議的決議 有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6498.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6500.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
有沒有?我告訴你有啦 有啦八年了啦 七年了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6511.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6524.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
說不改就是不改啦那你還要牽托說這些民意調查因為調查方法所以不準嗎你過這一下我就沒辦法相信司法啊你不是鼓勵有權的人去關說司法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6532.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6543.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那你推給法務部是不是法務部的業務啊?是不是?我知道你要推給法務部啦那我就跟秘書長報告啊關說司法被關說的主體是誰?被關說的關說者是誰?被關說者是誰?被關說者是法官欸法官是誰的院下?是法務部院下嗎?還是司法院院下? |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6562.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6587.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
捍衛法官公平公正審判請問是法務部的責任還是你司法院的責任啊還是兩個都有責任啊這個在制定法規修法面這個法務部跟司法院之間有一個分別我告訴你法務部要做司法院也要做啦你認不認同法官欸請問法官是法務部管的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6590.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6616.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
法官是今天是緣而編制在法務部嗎我跟秘書長報告你真的不能怪人民不相信司法你光從整個答詢過程當中我就沒有看到司法院積極捍衛法官獨立審案拒絕關說創造公平審判法制的決制阿我再講一個簡單的事情阿你們今天提的立法計畫表裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6617.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6631.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
有妨礙司法公正罪嗎?沒有啊,因為是法務部的事嘛,對不對?因為是法務部的事嘛,不是你司法院的事嘛,不是嗎?人民聽不懂啦,聽不懂啦,為什麼叫法務部的事? |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6639.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6665.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那所以你在指責法務部修法太多你都認為要制定你都認為你曾經當過法官你都認為今天關說司法應該有刑事責任你剛剛答詢是這個意思吧沒錯吧謝謝嘛那你就是在這邊你也是公然告訴大家法務部待職無能啊到現在為止多少年了沒有關說司法無罪在台灣不是一個天大的笑話 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6667.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6670.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我再請教一下我們的秘書長請問從你法院的實務來看沒有密錄器這件事情在證據上會產生什麼結果?警察執法沒有開密錄器會產生什麼結果? |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6688.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6708.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
關於這些政績能力的問題他個案又在個案嘛我來跟你講啦去年臺北市萬華分局移送一位鄧姓女子說她違反社會秩序維護法無故持有電擊棒最後法院裁定不罰你知道法院的理由是什麼嗎地方法院臺北地方法院裁定不罰理由是什麼嗎你當然不知道我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6713.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6741.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為地方法院兩度要求警方拿出秘錄器警方都交不出來於是地方法院重批這個收證不力不注意自身執行職務安全的粗糙移送不是文明法治社會執法機關應有的態度所以介於憲法的法治國原則法院難以認同所以判決不法你覺得我們地方法院這樣的一個判決有沒有理據 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6746.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6772.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你從頭到尾都個案啦你也不關心法治環境怎麼健全啦所有的法治環境都是個案堆積起來的啊當你每個個案今天該辦不辦該規範不規範就變成今天所有民調顯示不相信司法的原因啊我做一個很簡單的結論連地方法院都知道沒開密錄器對證據力的影響是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6773.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6791.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這當然跟你沒關係我先強調海巡署管碧玲委員海巡海委會管碧玲主委他竟然可以讓海巡在執法的時候沒有錄影這叫限執法人人於不義 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6793.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6810.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
如果在法院的實務裁判上你會讓今天不但我們的警方執法人員的執法無效化你甚至前面黃國昌委員不是有講到用GPS修正罪還變成法案秘密罪這叫限執法人員不義啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6815 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6840.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以最後的結論很簡單我真的拜託我們司法院可以積極一點不要都推給法務部啦尤其關說司法罪明明就是兩個單位都有責任的事情你推我推你一推幾十年才會造成今天對司法信任度低落的一個最重要的元兇就是執法單位就是相關主管機關的怠惰跟不負責任以上謝謝羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6845.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6867.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們現在請登記第5位的林委員發言謝謝主席秘書長我先跟您就教我們少年事件處理法的問題因為新北市的校園割井案所以司法院在2月19號召開了一起來體檢少年事件處理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6868.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6887.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那雖然司法院邀請許多民間團體還有教授但整場座團會的結果被民間單位批評根本就是摸頭大會現場司法院也都沒有針對問題做出任何具體的回覆也因此包含國教行動聯盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6888.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6902.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
以及還想陪你長大聯盟都一同召開記者會．並再次呼籲司法應該要召集跨院協商會議正視相關的訴求並提出具體的改善回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6903.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6927.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那我看到司法院在被批評後那最近也又對外表示除已經就19日當天各方的建言那陸續回信或回電外以洽商行政院安排兩院政策協商平台會議的這樣的一個事宜那我個人是認為司法院你這樣的一個回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6929.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6933.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
司法院要與行政院共同規劃政策協商平台會議,為何需要成立平台? |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6946.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6970.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
成立這樣的一個平台真的是有效率更有效率更有效益嗎很簡單的來說啊這個這種事情不就是司法院要跟其他單位一起就民間的需求反應以及現在存在的問題內部彼此直接面對面競速開會討論然後直接提出解決問題的方法就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6971.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6996.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
到底成立這個協商平台會議具有怎樣的功能包括哪些政府單位是否也包含民間團體要如何的運作這樣的平台會議是由司法院來做主責運作還是由行政院平台會議的時程又會是在什麼時候請秘書長來做一個回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6997.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7020.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
像委員說明這些我們邵家廳都在那個2月19號那個那個會議做談會之後就有我們邵家廳有陸續跟行政院有關教育部內政部因為有些必須要兩院之間要互相配合這一部分我請我們邵家廳長對 廳長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7025.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7042.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
謝謝委員關注這樣的一個問題那跟委員報告就是從108年的少年身體處理法的修法那當時其實就是為了要這個根本解決每一個少年其實他在成長需要家庭的功能的親子教育的這些資源跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7042.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7067.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
在校園的就教權還有包括少年的就業權所以在少司法108年修正的時候我們就透過少司法86條的第3項就有要求要訂一個少年事件跟這個行政機關的一個就是聯繫辦法所以從100這個就是10年開始我們已經連續3年每年至少一次跟行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7068 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7084.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
由政務委員：司法院秘書長主持共同召開兩院政治協商平台因為他少年成長從他的一個就學權比如說國民基本的義務教育那教育部的主責事項還有衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7085.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7087.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
而同福利與權益福利保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7101.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7117.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
110年108年修法之後修法就開始做嗎?是但是我們看到你這個協商平台會議到目前為止真的會有更有效率更有效益來處理我們少年事件的犯罪的問題嗎?是的看到它的成效有比較好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7118.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7144.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個部分相關資料我們會後可以提供給這個就是委員來做一個參考的確每一年呢大家行政院跟本院都有提出提案那每一個提案呢都有具體做成你具體再把你的這個成效具體用書面答覆我啦因為時間的關係其實我是想要了解這樣一個平台會議它是否確實能夠解決少年事情的處理和保護制度的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7145.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7171.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
還是說又是另外一個形式 開座談會 雙方平台會談一談那最後就一個空中樓閣少年這個平台會呢 它其實中央是行政院跟司法院你用書面回答我啦 因為時間的關係那我再問你對於民間團體提到的少年犯罪的徒消制度司法院的立場跟看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7172.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7185.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
跟委員報告,其實少司法的這個徒銷制度呢,它其實在民國86年當時大概就是受到兒童權利公約的影響那從這個我們103年已經把兒童權利公約內過法化了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7187.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7210.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那在兒權公務員的第16條還有第10號意見書還有20號意見書大概都有強調必須要去維護兒童的隱私權包含未滿18歲以下的這些處罰跟曝險的少年所以您的看法還是跟就是一直維持跟過去的跟委員報告我們可以去檢討就是有沒有一些制度因為我們有最近有參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7211.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7211.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
﹚委員﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7230.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7251.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那在世界的各國大概也都是要維護這些少年的一個前案的一個隱私那為了他們的一個復歸社會這個我了解啦但是因為目前發生這麼多少年的重大犯罪事件所以未來有沒有可能就是有一些特別的一個規定去對於這些重大犯罪的少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7252.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7258.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們會去審慎謹慎的嚴肅的看待但是我們如果說要處理這個部分可能就要回頭去檢視當時我們把兒權公約全國全面的內國法化之後這些也都是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7274.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7295.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個法律跟法律之間其實也必須要去做一個調整我想就是說你們還是要做檢討因為民間團體有這樣的一個聲浪我們已經在檢討當中我想這個很快又要開學了但是在過去3個月我們看到就是司法院還是一樣大敗百事的舉行個座談會 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7297.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7297.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
司法院秘書長列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7315.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7315.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
施法院責無旁貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7342.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7366.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好接下來我再請問一下炸妻犯引渡回台未遭羈押的未遭羈押齁以及詐騙的刑責齁台灣直播主晚安小雞齁我想他在柬埔寨的詐騙園區直播的這個案子呢那後來他們受到這個當地的法院裁定犯下煽動製造社會動亂罪判處兩年有期徒刑另外每人罰款400萬那個減幣啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7369.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7393.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那不少民眾都對判決結果感到大快人心還有人要求從重良刑但是也有律師表示說這樣毫無節制的刑法真的很可怕所以我想請問秘書長您認為這樣的判決是毫無節制很可怕嗎因為這個現在要救任何人民要救者的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7395.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7415.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
應該要有一套程序,正當的程序這我們都了解,其實我要告訴您的就是我們現在詐欺犯罪,我們已經變成詐騙王國了詐欺犯罪在院檢,大部分都是詐欺犯罪了,如何的惡主詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7416.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7443.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
當然這個源頭的二組很重要但是我覺得司法院在判決這一端可能我們也要去研擬是不是也可以來做適當的組決所以速審速決重重量刑這件事情司法院似乎可以做的就是說我們看到說那個國外人家政府在可以速審速決而且很快的就量刑確定判決確定這個刑度也不輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7445.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7456.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
但是我們司法院有沒有去這個未來就是檢討改進我們是不是也要御請我們的法官對於這個詐欺犯罪恕審恕結還要拖久啊然後又判很輕啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7460.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7472.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
委員長您贊成嗎?您是不是未來可以在政治方面做這樣的檢討改進?因為我們法官也應該要來傾聽社會各界的聲音因為現在確實詐欺犯太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7475.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7493.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以我才會說是不是我們看到人家國外速審速捷啊崇重良心啊大快人心啊所以我們未來我們司法院是不是也可以把這樣的案例作為參考要求我們的法院的法官遇到這種案件速審速捷嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7495.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7522.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
趕快就判了嘛快很準嘛你不要拖啦拖太久大家都感覺無感那些詐欺犯他們完全無感而且有時候判很輕啊判太輕了他們就重啟爐灶出來又是一條好漢了沒有人這個是不是可以往這個方向來著手就是我們法院判決這一端我覺得這樣才可以有效遏阻我們的詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7523.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7550.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
委員你剛剛這些提示都很重要我會朝這方面來努力我想我們最近又看到一個案例就是因為電信詐騙的詐騙犯他遭波蘭拘留6年的一個流行男子今年初被引渡回國受審後卻沒有受到羈押由法院裁定限制住居放他自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7551.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7557.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
所以我們警察有員警就表示這些回國繼續行騙的犯人為打不死的小強 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7559.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7581.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
民間肯定警察的辛勞的同時但卻有這樣不少詐騙犯送到院檢後僅僅以數萬元就可以交保然後又繼續在外繼續找下一個受害者行騙這樣的情勢其實在我們現在看到不管是檢方院方層出不窮詐欺犯移送到院檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7582.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7582.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
司法院立場看法如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7608.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7628.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
委員長你簡單回答因為有些個案因為畢竟有時候他犯罪在國外那涉及到一些政績的收集那一些像這種有時候是相對性的因為在當事人他有他的人權那涉及到也要有證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7630.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7655.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那有些個案他可能在國外他在政績方面那一部分會涉及到政績的問題有些個案他會你知道我知道是個案但是就是草草的給他交保你覺得這樣子是不是我們在整個對於這些詐欺犯的這個懲處方面會讓警察感到寒心他們抓得很辛苦結果到院長就給他交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7656.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7682.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以這個是也是我是認為也是未來我們司法院要預請我們不管是檢察官或者我們的法官對這種案件真的要慎重的處理對這種個案不要你證據方面我覺得我們可以透過這個這個羈押的制度讓這些人不要存有僥倖的心理你這樣太快放他出來也不能他無感 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7683.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7684.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
請登記中委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7701.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7728.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政務機關事務官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生那我想呢今天就來就教於我們秘書長吳秘書長吳秘書長這個4年前本席就在這個會議室我們非常欣慰的通過了國民法官法你知道那個司法改革是蔡英文總統這8年任期一個重要的承諾也是重要的政績那請問國民法官法開始實施幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7730.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7745.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
從去年但是我們在4年年通過之後是不是有將近3年的時間可以準備那你覺得準備時間充不充足那這些都在預估的範圍內那你對去年一整年的執行下來的成效你覺得如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7745.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7774.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
就根據中生大學他調查就你對這麥公聲音大一點好嗎?謝謝根據中生大學他最近的一份調查是滿一度有到70%但是我事實上我看到坊間的其他媒體的報導大概有指出幾個問題首先有人強烈的質疑實施國民法官法的審理案件就是國法案有明顯的簡便好像不對等就是實力差很多你同意這樣的看法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7776.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7778.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
檢察官的準備比較充足而律師相對的準備不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7791.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7814.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
檢察官他這邊人力他是相對是充足人力檢察官人力充足還有另外就是第二個有人說在前三年的準備期我們司法院跟第一線實務呢辦了很多的講習但是普遍的審檢的參與比較高律師們很少參加你這是不是原因之一就律師他們比較沒有時間去參加這三年的關於國民法官法的運作的實務的講習有沒有這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7816.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7842.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那因為畢竟律師他一般都自由業然後他可能意願的問題那第三個有人提出說另外國民參審啊國民擔任國民法官好像意願不高你同意這樣的一個描述嗎那根據一般我們現在就是說他會有一套你同意嗎他們說一般國民就擔任國民法官甚至有人說視為衛徒你覺得這有可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7843.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7846.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
國民法官在前三庭的出席情況如何?目前國民法官的報導率差不多不到一半,原因是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7863.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7884.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
委員都給你秀出來了有沒有因為這個也有一些他個人工作啦對說得很對一般民眾很多民眾他說他拒絕參加不曉得僱主應給予公價當你被選任為國民法官參選後僱主要給予公價是吧因為就這個部分公告周知強力宣傳嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7888.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7910.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
你們自己的調查顯示民眾一般擔任國民法官大概他會有幾個擔心我們選這副選題超過一半的被擔心的包括他覺得很殘忍﹖或者說他擔心被輿論批判﹖或者擔心他個人的人身安全﹖或者他不了解案情﹖或者他覺得去影響別人的命運﹖或者他沒有法律專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7911.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7940.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這些原因好像沒有包括說因為僱主不給予公價當然僱主不給予公價可能沒有表達出來那你認為有這些情況發生要如何改善那這些就是說要讓民眾他了解國民法官的這種那國民法官的施行一年你覺得民眾人民對於司法或對法官的信任度有沒有提高應該會提高應該有顯現司法還是完全沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7941.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7947.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
只有一年還不足以言成功路還很長我們根據106條105條的規定6年104條總檢討那你們根據這105條是不是要出年度檢討報告每一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7958.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7961.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
司法院1月17日的新聞稿說你們在2月起要公佈,現在幾月了? |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7974.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8000.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
3月公佈了一般民眾認知調查的部分我們預計在9月的時候會完成所謂的一次說完嘛你們在1月的時候告訴我們2月要公佈現在已經3月了公佈了任何一份沒有公佈了一份112年的一般民眾認知的調查報告已經公佈了所以你們分了很多項目那全部要公佈完是什麼時候到9月份全部都公佈原來的105條規定你們要提出年度檢討報告有請你分好幾次公佈到該年的年底嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8001.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8014.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
你們可不可以承諾秘書長今年第一年去年第一年實施你們的檢討報告甚至2266從2月一直公佈到9月可不可以承諾明年開始定一個日期什麼時候可以公佈一次公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8016.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8018.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
國民法官的去年到底有多少案? |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8041.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8068.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
就去年一共108案嘛去年108案啦我有準備我告訴你108案那你猜大概是什麼類型居多就殺人啦還有這個公共危險致死因故意犯罪而致死亡嘛就殺人嘛公共危險致死嘛傷害致死嘛加起來將近九成啦其中有一個叫做公共危險致死將近有超過三成你知道這個什麼叫公共危險致死嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8071.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8098.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
嚴重的酒駕致死案就是喝到爛醉如泥還去開車撞死人那這個呢也就是列入我們國民法官法好那請問一下在這些案子當中你認為這些酒駕的包括這些的他們在進行司法辯護的時候有得到足夠的辯護資源嗎這些108個案子有沒有因為我們國民法官法是一個這個減變啊我們希望他剛剛講到的減變要給他對等嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8100.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8105.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那這些人他們有得到我們國民法官法所賦予的必要的司法資源的辯護嗎?都會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8108.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8133.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
應該都會有不是應該都有,法律也有規定因為國民法案第5條就是說它可以要強制指定對不對那在我們的刑事署長第31條本刑而三年以上的就要強制在政法中有些情況就要強制的指定了那另外這樣的條件也符合法律輔助法第5條的規定最新本刑三年以上就可以申請法律輔助是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8133.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8152.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所以你認為這些國法案都可以申請法律輔助嗎?條件接近嗎?那你認為有多少申請法律輔助?108個案有多少申請法律輔助?你認為大概多少?我現在問你,你判斷這108個有多少申請法律輔助? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8156.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8185.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我告訴你齁 有99件啦九成以上的這個國審 國法案呢 申請法律輔助因為他的最低本刑三年以上 大概跟我們這個法律輔助是一致的好啦 但是你符合法律輔助就一定要申請嗎?符合法律輔助的案件 最低本刑三年以上 有這個嫌疑 嫌犯或被告有通通來申請嗎?沒有啊 那為什麼這個國法案的 這個都通通來申請? |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8187.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8215.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
什麼原因因為他一般都是經濟弱勢的沒有所有的酒駕致死的都是經濟弱勢啦我要告訴你原因啊因為我們的國法案他的審理跟一般的訴訟案不一樣他要集中通常在五天內要把它審完為什麼原來的法律設計希望減輕國民法官的負擔你總不能叫他請工假請兩個月三個月全部在審一審了全部完畢有時候一個庭啊要好幾個月啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8216.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8244.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
國民法官為檢定國民法官要求5天內執行這跟我們一般的司法署常態不太一樣那如果法官律師來擔任辯護一個月大概只能接4件其他的案子要排掉嘛對不對那請問一下目前我們來算一下假設一般的律師一個三個月可以消化掉30件案件假設啦三個月消化30案件一個案件大概律師的行刑多少五六萬嘛一庭嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8245.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8245.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
一般國法案找律師要多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8267.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8293.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
如果你律師這個月國法案你5天都要接國法案你一個月只能接事件你覺得一般律師會收多少有一個調查要20萬到30萬20萬到30萬他接3、4個案他才能夠跟他的投入和收入相稱所以為什麼一般的職業律師他不接國法案為什麼因為國法案的審製的特殊性所以通通跑到法服來了可是法服給多少給7萬5 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8295.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8315.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
法湖的律師如果接了國法案他那個月大概其他案不好接啊那他接4個法湖案他只能領到多少假設領滿了30萬顯然跟一般的律師的正常的職業狀況的收入有見所以所以我要怎麼請教您你覺得國法案審理是不是相當昂貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8317.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8345.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
相對的為什麼說簡便不對等在國法案當中你剛說了我們的檢察官的編制充足啊但是當事人去委任律師律師的支出昂貴啊所以一般的職業律師不接啊那他們又符合法服的要件通通跑來找法服法服只給七萬五啊那你說有哪一個傻瓜為了公義做公德去接法服的這個國法案如果你是法服的律師你要接國法案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8347.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8373.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那你認為這個有必要做適度的調整所以我們就這個天花板我們會提高天花板提高我還告訴你已經有一個叫做臺灣刑事辯護律師協會他說國民法官案件缺乏吸引律師參與誘因及實務運作環境司法院因正式制度之不足意思說什麼他們興趣缺缺啊怎麼辦你們怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8378.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8400.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
就是在籌金部分我們就籌金那這個部分我希望今天就兩個結論的時間也到了那麼主席很客氣我就講兩個結論第一你是不是正式承諾我們依據國民法官法第105條你必須年度的檢討報告在次年的2月底前公佈可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8402.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8426.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
第二這個檢討報告必須包括對於這一年實施以來包括了辯檢不對等包括了律師參與這些準備的不足以及一般的宣傳不足讓民眾瞭解以至於或者以為要花他的時間雇主沒有給予工價又或者說他有些人身安全問題要加速宣傳還有最重要的你們檢討報告當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8428.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8447.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
要針對目前絕大多數的國法案都會去運用我們的法服那法服的律師的酬金應該適度的提高到有誘因的程度,同意嗎?同意?好,那我請教一下,你們的預算明年要編對不對?今年有108案,你覺得明年大概有多少案? |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8452.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8477.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
會有200案我告訴你到民國115年開始被最低本金10年以上也要納入啊到時候量會增加所以你們要對於未來的預算的成長尤其在法服如果是200案一個案子如果是20萬就編個2000萬2000萬很多嗎會不會很多法服幫助這2000萬200件的一個當事人有得到必要的法律輔助會很多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8479.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8479.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
根據第7位翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8501.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8530.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
主席 秘書長 還有在座的司法院的庭長 處長們 大家好我想秘書長辛苦了經過今天這麼多委員這麼關心司法的問題 司法改革的問題給您提出了很多的建言希望您回去之後都能夠從善如流希望能夠提出更多更好的建議其實我也拜讀了司法院這邊所提出來的113年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8532.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8532.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
立法計畫． |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8547.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8548.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
司法院提出的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8568.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8596.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
計畫是不是更能夠貼近社會的這個貼近社會的訴求也就是我們知道現在其實社會非常關切幾個重要的問題一個就是校園安全的問題一個就是詐騙的問題剛剛前面的幾個委員們其實都有不斷提到這兩個問題可是我覺得還蠻遺憾的就是看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8597.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8626.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
司法院所提出來的這次的年度報告裡面基本上並沒有回應社會所關切的議題其實我認為要拉近司法與人民的距離必須要時時刻刻了解人民的期許人民的希望在哪裡我們的法律我們的立法都要符合國民的法律情感我想這個部分應該秘書長會同意我的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8627.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8629.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
社會期待的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8648.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8673.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
司法可以有更積極的作為可是看起來並沒有剛剛其實其他的委員有提到司法院在回應大家對於這個前兩個月所發生的少元戈井案的部分也召開了座談會那麼在那個座談會的部分當然我只有看到新聞稿還沒有就是看到新聞的報導也還沒有這個仔細的去找到我好像也沒有找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8674.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8702.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
司法院所公布的新聞稿以及那天的座談會議的記錄但是從民間團體的後來在新聞上面的他們的闡述希望我們的司法院能夠朝向幾個部分修法包含是不是未來消失法適用的年齡可以提高到20歲然後可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8704.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8718.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
說短講話教育的期間還有要增加少年保護官等等的這些制度那不曉得就是現在司法院對於少數法的修法有沒有一些想法有沒有一些進度這個部分是不是可以請秘書長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8719.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8743.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為這一次包括2月19號那個座談會那專家學我們有邀請專家學者來各個民間團體也都邀請過來那有提出各種意見各種意見那在修法方面這一部分我們邵家廳也有一個規劃這樣是可以請廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8746.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8775.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
對回答就是你們現在的修法的規劃及你們的預期的進度是如何?是的就是說陳如剛委員垂詢的大概我們目前最新的進度是跟行政院在洽商跟各部會開會討論這些校園安全或者是調保的這些相關的這些就是跟學校端或者社區端怎麼樣的去就個案去做一個這樣一個就是商議如何去讓少年能夠得到一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8775.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8803.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
就學或者是安全的這些相關的一個處理好好謝謝是謝謝廳長因為您剛剛在前面回覆前面幾個委員的時候有提到但是我特別想要知道就是說就法院的這個部分你們的想法是什麼因為其實坦白說這個校園割井案已經是在過去已經有陸陸續續有很多這個發生在校園裡面的這個傷害案啊等等然後昨天還有一個新聞我不知道你們有沒有看到就是一個北投的高中生 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8804.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8828.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
在課堂中間對老師施暴又言語的辱罵等等其實校園安全的問題這個已經是非常的嚴重不僅可能會對同班的同學學校的學生同學們造成傷害連對老師都是這樣很粗暴而且這已經不是這個首例在這些年這十幾二十年來其實陸陸續續都有發生這個問題特別是當我們的校園管教權不斷的鬆綁 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8834.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8834.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
司法院秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8858.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8884.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
可以讓民眾們知道畢竟你們提出來的修法案進到立法院我們大家委員們還要一起討論跟這個司法院這邊要一起討論所以是不是您今天這邊可以還有秘書長這邊是不是可以先提出一個你們最快可以提出修法的時間點好讓我們社會大眾知道我們的司法院作為是積極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8887.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8888.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8909.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8929.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
應應向高雄有高雄邵家法院那希望北邵家法院也能夠盡快成立那所以剛剛秘書長在立法計畫的後面我們希望在這個會期能夠針對要增補調保人力跟成立北邵家法院涉及的這些相關的法案能夠請立法院還有委員們大家來一併的來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8930.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8930.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
立法院秘書長列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8946.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8967.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
委員提到的就是我們為了在修法前能夠實際上每一個少年的狀況都能夠掌握所以我們也在2月1號已經上路的事辦計畫跟委員報告我目前呢全國我們打算就透過委外那也獲得行政院的一個支持就是可以希望能夠透過委外人力增補 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8969.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8969.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8987.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9007.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
保護管說的上面都能夠納入我們的事辦計畫 醫生先簡單補充謝謝聽長的補充我覺得這樣的說明非常的清楚不過我覺得蠻遺憾的就是其實你們剛剛講得很好但是都沒有在你們的立法計畫裡面講你們立法計畫說你們只要偵測的是高等法院的司法事務官完全沒有講到你們未來要增補這個調保人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9009.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9034.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以這個整個立法計畫的部分的話我希望以後你們提到立法院來的時候是能夠是更清楚的否則的話其實讓我誤會我以為說你們其實只是要再多補高等法院的事務官但是對於現在大家社會上面這麼期待的少年法院的法官或是調法人力相關的這個緣合的配置可是你們都沒有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9035.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9049.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
是的是所以剛剛秘書長有先口頭上我們會後會再立即的儘速送進來好的好謝謝那麼這個部分我想就是也謝謝秘書這個廳長和秘書長剛剛的這個承諾那另外就是說有關於詐騙的問題那針對詐騙的問題在這些年來其實我們知道詐騙的人數是不斷的增加那法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9063.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9064.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
地檢署的偵辦終結人數是否有類似的資料? |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9090.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9091.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9100.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9115.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
一般這個都會在法院這邊統計的就是涉及到這個因為這些都會涉及到刑法339條之四的加重竊盜所以我們都有詳細統計出來從109年到112年都有一個明細表出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9123.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9140.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
事後請您再提供給我我想大家對於炸期的問題不僅是要從更頭端因為之前是整個跨部會一起都在做防炸譬如說速發部在做防炸的技術的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9140.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9141.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
立法院第1會期司法院秘書長列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9163.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9164.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
立法院秘書長列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9192.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9197.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
有輕判那這個種種的問題我覺得這是司法院必須要好好的去了解那麼有沒有可能不管在呃良心的標準啊或者是呃未來跟地檢署這邊可以好好的針對這些事情一起談那麼如果說呃民眾期待未來我們的詐欺罪的這個呃處刑可以提高那司法院這邊是不是也應該要有所提案呃這個呃總是 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9219.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9239.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
政府就是一個團隊嘛那大家必須要共同的去思考怎麼樣能夠讓台灣的炸雞的這個問題能夠減緩那我希望就是司法院這邊可以提出來那不知道就是未來秘書長這邊司法院這邊現在有沒有已經計畫未來要做些什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9240.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9254.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這些我們我們對這個這些兩行的兩行的有關的兩行的加重加重的這些因素啊我們都會應送有關的參考手冊給 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9255.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9279.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
給法官另外我們現在也有在建制AI的輔助良心信息好好好這部分我曉得了對那我最後還有一個部分就是說可能回去要跟司法跟這個法務部提一下就是他們這次有提出來在你們立法計畫裡面有要增加這個檢查事務官可是看看我現在的PPT裡面其實不管是增加檢察官助理現在其實檢查事務官的缺額都還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9284.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9307.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那為什麼要增加這麼多的檢察官助理那這部分的話我希望就是之後法務部能夠給我一個清單到底現在不管是這個檢察事務官檢察官然後檢察官助理他們是怎麼分工怎麼運作那檢察事務官他目前他的職務已經他是不是在本職還是他是調到其他的單位去做一些行政的工作這部分還請法務部要提供資料給我謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9309.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9309.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
臨時提案處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9331.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9349.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
謝謝主席,有請我們司法院：對,謝謝我們秘書長還有司法院的同仁：大家早安,我是李思堯：我是司法法制委員會的新生：我會努力學習：如果思堯有：發言或是內容有不正確的地方：也歡迎大家可以隨時的指證我：我們互相尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9350.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9365.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那我今天會針對國民法官上路的成效來虛心檢討剛剛也很多委員也追尋過還有司法人員的離職潮是五年新高那我們的改善方案在哪裡我會就教於各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9365.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9366.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
請就憲法的專業來回答這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9392.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9412.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
您可以大聲一點那一天我是看會上主席是有提到這個是行政院跟立法院之間的一個關係所以呢再具體一點質詢是上對下的關係嗎就您的憲法素養您是司法院的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9413.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9416.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那應該是兩院之間 各本於主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9421.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9442.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
依據我們非常多的大法官事件都告訴了我們check and balance 憲法機關之間是權力分立平等相為的我想在新國會上路的時候我們作為憲法的解釋機關也應當來捍衛這樣子的權力分立的重要的原則跟價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9444.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9461.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
第2個問題也是今天也正在此時此刻我剛剛在隔壁的內政委員會那我赫然發現有在野黨委員原本有提出一個臨時提案但目前是暫擱但是也是有憲法方面是否合宜的問題想就教於您 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9464.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9478.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
針對這個驚嚇海域的意外事故那有在野黨的委員在立法院提案要成立調閱專案小組也就是要有以立法權來介入來進行一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9479.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9480.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
針對任何一個檢方偵辦中的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9493.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9502.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
立法院得以來成立調閱專案小組用立法權來介入司法檢調的權限嗎?這個應該是簡單的ABC的問題關於立法院的這個調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9512.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9517.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那之前在釋字,大法官釋字585號、325號還有613、633還有739號都有做一些說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9529.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9554.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那所以回應我的問題如果說今天這個金門意外的事件非常不幸我們當然希望協助釐清真相立法委員本於職責來提出對於這個海巡弟兄的裝備要提升啦或是在執法過程當中的一些協力精進這當然是立法委員去監督的範圍跟事項但如果是要在偵辦中的案件來成立調閱小組到底可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9560.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9563.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
有非常多的解釋,我在這裡就 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9572.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9589.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
因為我認為非常需要在我們司法法制委員會就憲法的運作原則非常清楚的透過我們司法院的專業人員秘書長還有我們廳長的釐清我們必須把這個憲政運作的原則搞清楚否則國會會鬧了笑話 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9592.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9614.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
以釋字第729號非常清楚的解釋了檢查機關代表國家進行犯罪之偵查與追溯基於權力分立與制衡原則且為保障檢查機關獨立行使職權對於偵查中之案件立法院自不得向其調閱相關卷證換言之聽講您點頭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9619.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9631.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以你要補充說明一是自第729號的精神如果立法院通過了這樣一個臨時提案要成立一個調閱小組針對檢調在偵辦中的案件yes or no可以不可以跟委員說明根據四字729號就如同剛剛委員所說明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9642.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9657.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
他在解釋文裡面明文記載立法院向檢察機關調閱這個偵查中的案件的部分是不能向其調閱見證那如果是調閱以偵查終結而不起訴或者是未經起訴或其他方式的檢案見證也有設定相關的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9662.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9687.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
立法院僅能在制度預算法律等事項對檢查機關進行通案監督因無介入個案調閱偵查卷證之餘地這個是我們729號的釋字內容我們內政委員會的這個提案目前應當是沒有處理我也希望在野黨的委員聽到我們今天透過司法院的秘書長還有我們憲法法庭的廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9689.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9705.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
再一次為我們清楚說明大法官釋字729號基本的精神應當要懸崖勒馬我們不樂見任何的政治力來介入司法案件我們也不希望粗糙的國會特徵組就這樣出現了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9709.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9732.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
為現非常清楚謝謝您的回應我一定要在這裡利用我質詢的時間來再一次釐清這樣嚴肅的憲法分立我們應當遵守的原則謝謝您的回答好那我們來看看我的第二頁質詢我手上拿的是臺北書展我去看了親子天下這個攤位我跟陳建仁院長一起去的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9734.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9758.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
小大人的公民素養課這一本非常好而裡頭呢針對我們最新的國民法官的制度也在這樣一個對於學生的公民素養的科普很清楚的為我們釐清了國民法官就是為了拉近讓公民有平等參與的權利我們去去除過去法官高高在上 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9758.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9779.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們希望打造親近友善讓公民也可以成為司法審判的協力者這是非常好的你們可以來一起推推這本書好那我們的國民法官法上路我們在審查法案我也都參與了那軟硬體軟體就是修法硬體的部分呢我們來檢視下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9782.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9804.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們跟設計研究院攜手合作打造了國民法官的法庭設計我跟秘書長說明其實臺灣的設計研究院是吳思堯本席努力催生的我希望能夠透過design thinking在任何的公部門的空間規劃能夠有使用者的思維可以達到我們要的一個政策目的我們透過設計導入導入使用者思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9809.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9838.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
能夠讓國民法官法庭重新redesign目前已經改造了21家地方法院28間國民法官的法庭這是before改造前的高雄地方法院南投地方法院新北地方法院就是高高在上燈光又不明亮感覺又很遙遠人民對於司法的禁用是完全被剝奪或是他覺得有相當高的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9838.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9839.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
：立法院議員： |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9866.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9887.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
秘書長：你們覺得：這樣一個硬體的導入：有沒有有助於我們國民法官心智的上路?這個都有得到德國的：這得IF大獎：或是：設計大獎：對對對那這個是得獎：得獎是額外的啦這是extra的honor：對於使用者呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9889.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9917.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
目前反應應該都非常好那我們目前是28間改造完成有下一階段要改造的計畫嗎?市林地院也在增設當中那所以不只那完全第一階段就是針對國民法官的法庭設計嗎還是有其他的非國民法官的法庭你們也要啟動這個設計導入的空間改造的新思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9919.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9945.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
就是我現在這個讓民眾有禁用錢我們都會朝這個方向有一些好因為時間有限您稍後提供就事後提供書面資料我們下一個階段的design thinking導入我們的司法制度我很會持續的追蹤基本上這個案子也是司要本席一路的協助推動我今天可以在司法法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9946.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9970.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
就這個部分來跟大家分享我是覺得非常的光榮好那我們軟體修了法硬體也提供了相當的協力好下一頁但是國民法官法上路國民法官法庭上路我再佔用一點點時間不好意思剛剛前面幾位委員都檢視了他的執行成效我也知道就在上週我們也邀請了日本的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9971.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10000.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
來分享了日本的刑事訴訟制度跟他們裁判員制度分享給我們到我手上的資料是原定要2023年去年要收件300件那實際的收件是108件但審結只有16件只有14.8%換言之他的收件數也好或是審結數都偏低那剛剛有幾位委員提到這個國民法官的報道率不到一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10001.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10017.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
或者是他在審理的過程因為這是一個新的制度大家要去包括徵詢國民法官然後包括在審理的過程他也需要上課也需要去更多的協力的角色但是這樣一個審結收件的比例你們的檢討如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10022.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10028.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們的辯護量能不足國民法官的報道率不高這都是橫在眼前的挑戰包括我們眾嘉賓昭偉剛剛也提出來你們是幾月份會提出一個執行一年的報告檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10050.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10073.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那我們最終的年度的總結報告是在那今年的9月份會提出來那順便回應那委員剛剛所關注的問題就於為什麼審結案件只有16件那我可以跟委員報告一下我們事實上也做過分析因為在前半年112年的前半年的起訴案件量是真的是比較少到了7月之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10074.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10099.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
檢察官慎重起訴是先詳細的偵查之後慢慢的起訴上來那經過一個準備程序的期間那真的進到選任程序在最後進到審理程序所以大部分都集中在下半年才出現那目前來講目前的收案量已經到22件了所以相關的案件量的成長跟犯罪數來講應該是回復到一般的正常水準沒有持那個起訴遞言的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10100.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10109.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我們就是持續的來精進其實就日本的制度2009上路之後他們也是花了好幾年國民的滿意度才提升他們甚至花了五年我做過調查所以我沒有苛責現在馬上就要達標但是在軟硬體的部分國會都給予支持軟體我們的修法配套執法都完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10122.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10124.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們現在先處理臨時提案臨時提案總共有兩案麻煩請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10151.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10175.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
臨時提案一 為避免違背法符．以提供人民法律輔助．保障人民基本訴訟權利為終止．要求司法院一個月內．將申請法符．無需審查資歷的適用．及防弊措施提出書面檢討報告．並送至本院司法法制委員會支委員．提案委員吳宗憲．盧志強．林思明．傅坤祺 謝龍介等 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10176.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10193.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
臨時提案二有鑒於司法及法制委員會會議原改建目的信任有效區隔立法委員與媒體以求更好之攝影品質以作為委員會改建之實驗性場域致使本委員會與其他立法院設置之委員會有別 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10194.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10214.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
委改介後是否能達上開目的仍有疑議故提議將司法及法制委會之空間配置增加2個質詢台提案委員 翁曉琳 謝龍介 林思明 柯建民 吳宗憲 傅坤祺等 宣讀完畢請問就第1案的部分 有提案委員要補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10216.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10216.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10232.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10256.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那麼他從第一項到第四項主要是規範這個所謂的無資歷者就大家說的經濟弱勢者但是事實上的法律輔助不限定是屬於經濟弱勢者包括了包括原住民包括了說最新本行三年以上那包括剛剛我們所說到的國民法官法當中這些因故意犯罪致死的很多都會跑到國民法那個法律輔助法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10261.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10281.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那我是覺得因為去年的108件的國法案還在做檢討當中那是不是我們可以為了因為國法案的接受法服的情況跟其他不屬於免用資歷審查的案件顯然有別那我是希望一個月恐怕來不及因為我剛剛問過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10282.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10283.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
麻煩機關就委員所提的臨時提案做回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10313.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10321.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
假如能3個月那會比較完整所以建議是能不能把1個月調整為3個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10328.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10329.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10349.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10351.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
請教時間,如果要把國法案的檢討報告是9月才出來,你這裡壓3月,我確認一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10375.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10398.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
大家希望完整給你們合理的時間如果把國法案件併入的話可能還要再考慮刑事廳那邊的國法的評估的進度這是原因之一第二個就是說如果說把國法案件併入的話可能這個議案可能會更複雜化我們原先本來估計是說如果不是針對國法案件沒有包含國法案件就一般強制辯護案件來做的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10400.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10408.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
因為我們這個法服他是一個獨立的基金會所以呢他們如何的運作那我們司法院是負責監管的部分所以就原來的提案來說的話我們可能就預估可能要將近三個月的時間可能會比較完足啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10417.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10442.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那另外呢就針對這個無資歷的部分呢因為法服法第13條有關省資歷的部分有想有一個法定的一個規定那在配合法定規定的狀況之下其實我們實務上有一些因應的作為那但是因為立法院有這樣的一個更精進的一個要求所以呢我們希望就原來的提案的部分可不可以給我們三個月的時間讓我們來做一個比較完整的處理以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10445.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10445.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10477.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10487.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好那我們就那個期限的部分我們就把它改成三個月大家有沒有意見那沒有意見的話我們就依照修正後的文字通過好那第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10490.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10491.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
提案委員提供回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10512.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10513.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個你要拖那麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10540.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10544.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
你有沒有辦法這個能夠馬上做修改那你 這個我們搬那個執行台過來這沒有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10564.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10573.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
報告主席搬執行台來沒有問題我們就是架在這個前面這兩個空間但是他會影響到委員的進出的動線 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10577.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10600.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我覺得這個不是很大的工程但是是不是說你們說的比如說一週內或一個月內先把未來的配置圖給委員看一下如果委員覺得OK增加兩個執行台是可以的你的相關配置需要的作業時間自然會給你但是現在你說的很複雜要休會期間大家一想說就兩個執行台有那麼困難嗎但你有提到說要走到要什麼的確有這個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10602.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10628.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
先規劃 限期規劃出來那委員會再來OK後那看多少作業時間趕快來辦理好 那這樣可以嗎 就是我們認為是說要做修改嗎報主席那是不是給我 給我們兩個禮拜的時間我們來規劃不不不 畫一個圖為什麼要兩個禮拜一個禮拜就可以了因為你是放兩個 兩個那個那我們就一個禮拜把圖 圖面提出來下禮拜提到委員會來給委員看這樣OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10633.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10659.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這個應該先送每個委員會的辦公室讓我們先看吧就是如果說還需要做決議的話委員會上面就可以做決議了沒有問題這個很簡單的事務怎麼會搞成這樣就是備詢台跟執行台來那在還沒有定案你休會期間你要去改你去改這個時候你就先搬過來然後用那個無線麥克風就可以進行執行跟備詢嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10659.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10670.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那你如果破壞到怕會破壞到現場或是動線那你這個圖通過以後他到休會的時候再去改現在立刻就可以做這個執行了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10673.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10675.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
當初司法法制委員會是立法院第一個率先要去思考說 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10696.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10696.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
委員會議委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10715.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10716.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10735.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10760.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
都要去做到,好不好,否則搬了兩個回來,到時候委員會發現,不好用,你沒有被罵,所以還是...如果那個PowerPoint,你現在看這個都能看了,那你站在那邊執行,趕快換啦。沒有啦,你如果...委員,我們這時候很有經驗,那桌子上要有一個monitor,其實也方便大家,方便大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10762.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10789.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我沒有反對的意見只是說不要說只改很簡單最後覺得不好用我只是提醒那個吳委員謝謝來來先第一個吼你們現在出了這麼多新聞吼你要怎麼處理你要給我注意第二個委員會過去是怎麼樣我們尊重現在委員會做的決議你就是配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10791.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10815.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這麼簡單的事你為什麼要故意在這裡讓大家委員有爭執叫你擺兩張桌子要四五個月有這麼麻煩嗎就當擺一張桌子10公尺也要收費把立法委員當盤子嗎我不需要你回答我現在告訴你擺兩張桌子無線麥克風把它擺上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10817.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10842.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
讓這個委員會要基本上議委質詢要最卑微的尊嚴就這麼簡單至於說上面沒有monitor所以我們這個委員會為什麼我們在這裡質詢沒有桌前的monitor現在可以用這麼久我們看主席要這樣看然後看那邊要這樣看連院長連院 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10845.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10855.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
行政院院長到立法院備詢都是跟立委面對面叫你搬兩張桌子來就這麼簡單瞭解了嗎瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10857.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10875.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
主席那我可不可以一併把一些需求表達因為既然委員都表達齁其實齁我用這個委員會也經常來啦那最大的困擾就是說在質詢答的過程中我要從這邊離開齁我不知道從哪裡走啊我從這裡走齁也會入境啦我從哪裡走還要跟主席先打個招呼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10876.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10900.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那我們的助理要進來,他們必須匍匐前進啊,所以呢這個情況的確要改,如果陳如雯剛剛我們副總召所說的,前面擺兩個諮詢台,請一併把那個席位的分佈,還有出入的動線也稍微規劃一下,不然的確這個實驗性質我覺得,其實我是可以適應,只是最不能適應的就是說怎麼進出來,因為門口都在那裡啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10900.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10900.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10925.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10937.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
主席你就直接採釋第一個分階段實施讓他一週內把兩個桌子怎麼弄把它弄進來我們這個先進行第二階段整個委會怎麼改 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10938.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10958.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
第二階段另外再送然後因為那個是所謂的會期結束才來處理我們分兩階段來做好不好那這樣喔可不可以就是說我想說這兩個放兩個那個備訓執行台這個可不可以一個禮拜內處理完畢另外就是大概兩個禮拜內你們把那個圖簡單的畫出來這樣時間上面來不來得及那個報組局我們來照辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10966.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10966.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
陳俊宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10991.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11015.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好,謝謝主席那秘書長還有我們今天列席的各這個庭處長還有我們在場委員媒體大家午安那我想想請教一下我們秘書長那在這張圖表是來自我們司法院112年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11018.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11045.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個一般民眾對於司法認知的一個調查的一個數據那也是從司法院至這個95年開始每年委託這個民調公司所做的調查一個報告並且做長期的觀察那其中對於法官的信任度至109年度有超過五成那在近兩年更維持在近六成高達5.8的這個滿意度 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11048.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11067.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那從這次的這個調查看來這也是我們蔡總統任內最後一次的一個這個調查報告但是在民間我們也看到也有這個傳出的數據是3乘2的滿意度結果我想請教一下秘書長那對於這個數據您的解讀是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11071.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11091.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
因為各種民調他可能在命題方面可能那個內容在一般民眾他答覆所以這個可能跟調查的內容還是會有關對調查結果還是有關?會有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11096.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11108.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
好 其實在這次的民調顯示的結果民眾會認為說司法不公正的主要原因可能是這個法官亂判而且把這個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11111.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11131.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這個判決結果不符合民意的這個結果就把它歸類法官亂判所以才會導致可能像剛剛秘書長您所說的這個數據看起來可能依民眾的這個滿意度他可能個人感覺的問題去答詢可能會有落差當然這也是做參考的一個依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11132.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11160.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那我也希望說我們雖然最近的這個滿意度是有史以來這從95年到現在看起來是最高點那我也希望說我們可以繼續來對於這個滿意度不要因為到了這個58點我們就停在那邊是不是還可以繼續提升這個民眾對於我們這個法官的這個信任度的相關問題我希望說我們是不是可以一起來測盡 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11162.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11169.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
不要就停在這邊 可以再往上攀升這部分再請我們秘書長跟所有的同仁一起來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11171.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11193.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那再來就是這個雪漢司法官的問題雪漢司法官我相信這最近也是常常會聽到那當然有高滿意度的這個背後是否就是來自於高工時還有高壓力的這個司法官的制度才會演變有這個問題產生那本期的選區在宜蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11195.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11222.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那在宜蘭地方法院為例觀察到今年1月新受理的這個民事案件較去年同期增加了近40%那刑事案件也比去年同期增加差不多超過45%以上但這個不是宜蘭縣的個案應該是全國的一個通案那以全國的全國性的問題我想請教就是說各縣市地方法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11223.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11229.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這種如此爆量的情況那我們對於這個問題有沒有什麼解決的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11230.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11257.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
就是說確實人力是不足的所以我們也是很期盼說在總言而法那個上限一萬五千人能夠也麻煩我們國會這邊能協助因為確實人力不足因為爆量都那個民刑事案件都增加的比例都相當相當高 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11259.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11286.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那像人員不足的部分我想請教秘書長就是說針對這個部分我們對於案件的內容有沒有辦法去分門別類像有一些案件其實可以不必進入到我們這個司法機關可以在地方調處或是有其他方式透過警察機關來做協助有沒有可能因為這個也涉及到整個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11289.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11315.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
行事訴訟法整個體制的問題尤其像現在這幾年整個傾向就是很多事都需要法院來照料因為不管怎樣法院還是在我們社會會被認為是公信力的場所所以很多修法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11321.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11340.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我本席個人認為是在我們整個配套可以比較完善的情況之下能夠把一些案件不要讓我們的司法官這麼的勞心勞累那這個部分我還是請我們秘書長跟我們同仁一起去研議看看有沒有什麼辦法可以讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11341.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11360.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們在緣額不足的情況之下來減輕我們這個司法官的這個工作量因為我們在這個司法改革的這個方案中也很明確的第6點裡面已經寫出就是希望能夠減輕法官的工作負擔那這部分我真的希望說我們來重視這個問題另外在 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11366.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11393.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這個國民法官的制度問題的部分我想跟我們秘書長來做一個探討我們國民法官法已經上入一週年了那司法院在這個1月份的記者會當中也有提到去年這個國民法官案件共有108件那我相信今天也許多委員都關心因為我們原本設定是這個300件那很顯然在這個處理的過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11394.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11395.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
因為他畢竟要有一定法定要件才會進入到國民法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11423.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11438.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以相對的有時候相對的有可能那段時間在所屬的縣市他治安相對是好的其實有些其實他是正面的那當然他 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11439.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11440.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我想再請教一下針對我們這個圖表 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11470.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11493.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個圖表我們可以看到就是我們司法院也是自己做的調查可以看到我們有近七成的這個超過半數的民眾擔心自己擔任這個國民法官的時候會不會因為看不懂或是不了解狀況那雖然這個國民法官的精神是借重民眾自身的這個生活經驗來做處理但應該還是要推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11496.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11497.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
司法院秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11522.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11546.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
對於這個問題是不是來做更詳細的這個宣導還是什麼方式來檢討有沒有可能這個其實我們也都有盡量在宣導比如說像目前我們這個郵寄的那個提款機其實都有我們國民法官這方面的一些宣導那接著我們廳長他有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11547.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11562.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
委員關心這個問題事實上我們在國民法官的宣導部分我們分家做多元是多元多方的宣導方式包括我們會針對村里你學校或是企業團體會做一般做宣導活動包括比較深度的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11563.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11587.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那跟到學校園裡面跟學生做互動或是模擬法庭的一些相關的宣傳那這部分我們會持續在做那在這多元多那個多元分流的宣導活動我們一直都在持續在進行那這有關剛剛委員所提到的剛剛說有半數的國民法官擔心說他看不懂法律相關法律知識是不是要做科普的部分當然科普是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11588.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11588.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11606.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11625.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
參與的國民法官都會了解整個訴訟程序的內容包括證據的認定根據什麼樣的證據認定什麼樣的事實在評議階段有什麼不清楚的都可以詢問法官法官都很樂意的給他一個正確的觀念跟跟相關的說明所以這部分我們一直都是在做持續的進行上 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11626.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11646.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝聽長那我是還是建議就是我們針對宣傳方面應該朝向更這個廣泛的方式或是更生動能夠有讓年輕人有一個誘因的一種宣導方式我相信這對我們一定是正面的好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11648.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11648.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
副分席委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11671.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11677.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
秘書長,您提到刑事訴訟法245,禁止辯護人在場陳述意見與筆記權,是採取事後救濟的機制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11691.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11716.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那辯護人這些權利一旦被限制以後,禁止影響到被告的律師依賴權事後的救濟,他會有什麼樣的實意?這一部分,請我們刑事廳,就這一部分我們都已經有請行政院都會刑,我們有整個配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11718.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11718.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11748.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11757.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
徵據能力有沒有撤銷徵據能力就由法院來判斷認為說他違反的話那可能是因為當時可能你現在這樣修法會影響他的徵據能力的判斷會影響那就是以法院的實務就是徵據能力會喪失是不是這樣那你們修法有沒有考慮說採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11776.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11802.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
檢察官保留或是法官保留的立法模式那我們在諮詢會的時候曾經有考慮過這樣的方式但是在法務部的立場他們認為說在偵查中貴在機密性跟迅速性所以可能說如果你說事先透過說的檢察官保留或法官保留的方式可能對他們的偵查詢問的方式可能在進擊上不是那麼順利所以才會採取事後究竟的方式來處理這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11804.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11831.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以基本上就是採取讓他對於辯護人的依賴這條被告的權益的保障那你有一個問題比較曖昧就是說檢察官他偵測檢察官助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11833.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11857.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
這個倡議在去年我看調資料立法院就有了然後草野的立法委員都很支持可是司法院好像還沒有提出草案我們這一部分有向委員報告我們有提出在第4案那個也有把法院主持法有要 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11859.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11884.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
要徵涉那個檢察官助理也都列入我們立法計畫你這就是要隱姦了嘛你好像擱置這個然後因為朝野支持的是那個檢察官助理的徵額嘛啊你現在總之再審査拿出來高等法院你要徵涉司法事務官嗎?是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11886.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11913.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
就是評估是認為說因為在業務單位啊那你增加的好像你這就是擺明我覺得你在綁架啊你在幫票因為一般我們修法會增刑各個業務 業務廳啊那不然為什麼那個案件大家都支持還會一直刪不出來在擔任就是在擔任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11916.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11944.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為之前他也是最近才拜會我們之前2月6號才來拜會我們司法院那機關之間本來有一套流程那你現在法院組織法的修正草案到哪裡了我們都內部在有關條文都在要修的這些條文都在整理會辦中這個是司法院還要到行政院會選的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11946.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11974.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
對不對那你現在還沒到司法院還沒出來我們會儘快這樣完整會議就心裡不會對了我們會儘快對不對那也因為這個會期就不可能在委員會因為畢竟修法它有一個格式修法它有一套流程我本席的看法這改成是你們自己五個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11977.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11980.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
法務部草泥棄保潛逃罪還有司法關縮罪你有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12002.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12022.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我看你剛才都不敢贏啦是不是因為你們反對嘛所以這個法案就一直沒有辦法送到立法院來嘛基本上你們就是抗拒啊尤其是司法關說罪啊因為棄保潛逃跟司法關說譬如說諸葛隆棄保潛逃嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12031.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12036.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
為什麼國人對司法沒有信心?你對出國融這個你有什麼看法?雖然個案那已經走了嘛跑了嘛棄保潛逃嘛那社會影響這麼大嘛你覺得怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12048.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12075.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那個結果就是社會一定會有落差法律就是明明賦予法官可以羈押你看台南市那個金華局長他一審判8年二審檢到6年半法官為什麼不准以他交保桃園那個局長一審判13年就交保了那為什麼台南他不准以他交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12076.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12104.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
就法官他看到很多事證因為他可以限制他嘛所以才會有臺南市的光電現在還可以繼續偵辦啊如果交保他就照處理啊對不對而且光電牽扯那麼多那祖國隆這也是啊明明就可以給他支啊那你這樣就是讓我們的國民對於法律的情感就受到傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12106.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12134.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以權貴這有很多人變破形 變破一個遭一個破一個遭一個你做司法人你不會覺得很辛苦嗎所以為什麼棄保潛逃罪跟司法關稅罪本席是希望你們能夠支持阿我們會支持阿你會支持阿會支持阿這樣有什麼具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12135.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12159.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那這個我們會跟法務部那邊一起來就是這個當然這個是主責是法務部但是我們會支持我們會後也會我們聽會把這些意見轉給法務部來行法339條制是加重詐欺罪是一年以上七年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12160.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12190.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那你知道現在電信詐騙 很多的案件 量刑 都是在6個月以下那各位一哈 被判兩年以上的被判兩年以上 判刑兩年以上的 為乎其為那法院的量刑偏輕 所以造成這些詐欺犯盛行更誇張的就是說 一罪一法一罪一法理論上是罪責要更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12191.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12210.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
可是 定型執行型的結果 卻是換越多 它優惠越多啊秘書長 你看所有實例都這樣啊 這樣一罪一法有什麼情形所以司法院對這些 針對量刑 你講一下 你怎麼具體來改善那 這個我們 有沒你想過 詐騙的越來越多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12219.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12222.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那為什麼判出來都不是這樣啊?那你們內部都沒有檢討過?我給你提的這個數據是屬性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12249.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12262.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
現在...那你看國人怎麼看待司法嘛現在就是說這種...詐騙這麼普遍你身後邊一定有人說我某一個法官的朋友退休了叫我們陪他來給我陳述捏我也愛莫能助啊詐騙是有夠多的 因為坦白講他們不怕嘛那邊誰不怕啊 乖乖乖乖的出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12278.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12279.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
謝謝榮介委員 接下來我們請傅坤祺委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12306.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12324.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
主席秘書長委員好今天要就教秘書長這個實在是比較抱歉這是立法院的一些家醜讓你們看到因為這個委員會這樣的設置是很離譜的這個是矮化整個國會不能這樣辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12329.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12353.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
第一個對於這個人權法案的部分這個我們有提出了三案基本上這三案是基於憲法法庭判決以後我們所有包括在刑事訴訟法要做部分修正條文這個司法院所提出來的我們都敬表尊重那另外就是第4案的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12355.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12355.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
司法改革的滿一度 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12379.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12404.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
雖然司法院現在真的成績相當好了滿意度已經到三成了30.04雖然不滿意有四成八不過以前從不滿意度六七成現在降到四成八司法還是有在進步啦再來我們對法官的滿意度可以看一下現在不滿意度是52.2% |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12408.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12433.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
滿意度是32.7這個可能跟司法院就有關係跟司法院有關係再過來台灣的司法是否公正這個就很嚴重了這個不公正的比例佔55%不過公正的比例有35%我想一方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12434.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12459.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我們的司法公信力確實有逐步在提升但是民眾對司法的不信任還是高達5乘5、5乘6這我想司法院還要再加一把勁那司法不公正的原因也可以看一下包括法官亂判35.3司法對有權有勢的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12460.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12482.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
有力20.8%政治力介入16.5%等等等等大概前面主要三項是在這個部分所以呢在這裡請我們司法院的各位同仁可能要了解這是全民的觀感有高達這個將近 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12486.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12489.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
在看檢察官是否有受到政治力的影響這個是這個成績啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12510.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12531.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
真的我們不管是法務部還是司法院可能要嚴格正視這個問題認為一定會政治力一定介入檢察官而受到影響有38.1可能會有46.6所以這加起來是8成將近8成5 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12535.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12564.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
所以在這個部分為什麼我們的司法越改民眾的疑慮越高在這個區塊的部分是不是請下一次本委員會召委下次有機會的話我們還是要排司法院就這個司改的部分來做報告所以希望秘書長下次我們再來的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12565.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12565.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12590.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12620.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
司法院所提出組織法第4項的部分要增加司法事務官還有檢察官助理的這個部分可能上一屆可能上一屆的委員有表達相當多的意見但是這一屆的委員可能看法不見得趨於一致就像光這一點我希望設置你主改的部分這個組織法要修正的部分我們一定要做充分的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12621.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12623.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
檢察事務官 缺額230人 增加檢察官助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12638.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12666.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那我們的書記官目前缺有還有140人是我們的司法界讓大家要留在這個原有單位在法界是不是大家開始興趣缺缺是不是跟這些數字都有關係雞生蛋蛋生雞這社會的一個集體的一個氛圍請這個秘書長能夠提出相關的應對的事情不過在這裡特別提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12667.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12690.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們檢察事務官有這麼高的缺額都沒有補那現在還要來要600個元額這是我們非常好奇的一件事情那當然剛剛我們西龍界委員也提到相關的疑問是不是檢察官在法務部在要求增加檢察官助理的時候我們司法院也希望增加司法事務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12691.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12719.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
基本上要增加這些原額大原則對於台灣的司法品質有提升本席都不反對但我要特別強調的是司法院法官的職權違和他是負責聽訟由檢辯雙方根據所掌握的證據要調查的證據來做明確的攻防法官是以聽訟為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12721.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12748.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
現在不管是增加了現在新的犯罪形態亦或者是這個很多在過去的六法全書裡沒有看到的東西現在出來了秘書長我們可以讓法官做集體的培訓但是不是增加司法事務官原因是什麼我們法官是聽眾為主不是協助調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12750.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12779.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
要協助調查現在對我們的法官成為檢察官助理啊那這樣我們的檢察官的品質會更差如果都要由法院來協助檢察官來做證據的補證來做所有的法官成為檢察官助理那我們的司法品質要如何提升如果不是胡亂起訴為什麼在法院還要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12780.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12805.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
法官增加這個司法事務官幫檢察官來收證這是在我們司法界是非常荒唐的一件事情再過來檢察官助理光檢察官的檢察事務官有這麼高的缺額沒補現在還要增加檢察官助理其實本席這個也大概跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12807.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12834.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
秘書長有討論過我們再強調一次臺灣的起訴是不是過分腐爛還有太多的因素介入為什麼我們檢察官今天指揮刑事警察局指揮調查局指揮廉政署這都是很專業的單位指揮這麼多的單位來協助檢察官辦案他的移送書他的報告書 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12836.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12864.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
難道都還有問題嗎還要檢察官來募集這麼多的檢察事務官或是檢察官助理再來重新整理資料重新來辦案這樣子的話是不是調查局移送的資料並不完整還是報告寫得不周詳還是刑事警察局目前素質還沒有趕上非到檢察官自己啊來調整整體的辦案品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12868.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12895.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
本席很好奇如果並不是這樣的話應該在法院跟檢察官的部分對於所謂新生的一些犯罪形態我們可以來上課做專業的提升但是在辦案單位也可以做專業的提升但是本席認為不管是司法事務官也好還是檢察官助理也好應該要正本清源還是要回到調查單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12896.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12923.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
調查單位就包括行事警察局還有包括警政署還有包括聯政署還有包括法務部調查局這些員額不夠要增加本席強烈支持專業不夠要怎麼樣去培訓我們也支持但是不要變成檢察官跟法官來做一個調查的助理檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12924.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12949.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
應該是指揮辦案然後指揮下屬這些單位辦案完成之後做一個完整的起訴提升我們司法品質所以本席的建議是應該要先把檢察事務官先補齊以後法定人員先補齊以後再來考慮檢察官助理的問題可能會更周詳也更有正當性好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12950.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12951.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12978.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12979.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13004.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13004.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13032.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13032.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13063.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13065.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13268.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13268.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13281.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13298.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13298.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13299.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13320.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13347.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
施行好像沒有成功我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的這個審判這個刑度都過輕的問題但是我也知道因為這個原因其實導映於幾乎所有的被告都是都是車手或者是人頭賬戶所以本來對於車手或人頭賬戶他的量刑就 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13348.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13350.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
司法院秘書長列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13365.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13390.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13391.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13399.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
法官的習慣都是從最低型度開始往上加加一個月兩個月當然有一些法官他可能正義感爆棚他就是會重判但是通常二審都不會支持他 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13419.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13445.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13446.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13447.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13467.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13495.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13497.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13522.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13523.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13543.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
將來你面對的可能就是一個比較重的刑度 這個再麻煩各位司法院的同仁能夠宣導一下這一塊在我今天想要請教秘書長秘書長你知道我們全台灣現在最大的律師事務所是哪一間你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13545.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13546.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
立法院秘書長列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13564.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13589.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13590.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13612.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
但是呢我們花那麼多錢那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找的到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13612.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13616.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
法服無需審查之力就准許提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13635.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13642.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
到111年是合準是到66.46也就是說如果我們往前面從104年到111年來看平均是62.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13647.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13647.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
中低收入戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13665.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13692.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
在那個重罪重罪的強制辯護案件裡面是不是裡面有穿插了很多其實他是有足夠資歷的然後我們卻浪費了我們這個這個司法資源去提供因為畢竟法服他主要的資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13692.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13693.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13704.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13706.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
在一個月內提供我們一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13734.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13739.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13743.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13762.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法福基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面大概准與輔助的一般案件總共是56718件 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13764.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13766.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那其中強制辯護案件是17166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受扶助人是中低收入戶的總共是11172件大概佔19.70%那受扶助人他是屬於身心障礙的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13783.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13786.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
是9916件大概是佔17.48%那這一些類型大概比較可能會被認定是經濟上或社會上的弱勢族群那所以就是而且是法律上規定應該給予這個這個強制辯護的案件那另外針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13804.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13815.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13828.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13853.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這是目前辦理的狀況先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13858.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13858.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13876.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13890.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
的情況下到底有沒有辦法達到一個效果我覺得這是我們在懷疑的所以說我們希望說就篩選的部分能夠更加仔細一點那另外就是說還有一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13891.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13908.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
從來有很多案子接受法服之後突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成如果原住民的話甚至到九成 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13909.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13913.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
最後一點時間我想跟各位提一個就是國民法官的制度當然我知道這個是蔡英文政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13930.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13945.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始去信任司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13947.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13966.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做國民法官的法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13967.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13988.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的瞭解這個錢根本請不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13989.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14008.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
請不到怎麼樣就是這個錢然後再去面對這種重大案件你說叫一個律師來去做這個事情其實這個從那個經濟理性上面來看是違反的所以這一塊可能也是要麻煩各位能夠看能不能夠做一個研究這到底是怎麼要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14011.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14034.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14034.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14057.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14059.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14081.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
你不能用非常少的錢去請一個律師然後去幫這些人去你說這個叫法服這個我覺得這只是應付而已這不是真正的一個社會救助的制度好那這一塊也麻煩你們能夠研究看看能不能給我們一些數據或資料那這大概需要多久的時間是 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14087.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14102.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
委員好 剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14107.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14111.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14130.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14149.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那這個編組的成員呢主要就是由專家學者以及富有形式辯護經驗的律師來組成那他們也可以參與辯護以及甚至做一些經驗傳承的工作那另外在114年我們規劃要成立形式辯護中心那希望由專職律師來加入成為種子然後結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14150.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14150.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
麻煩拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14169.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14170.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14199.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14204.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
主席 各位委員 秘書長好 還有我們司法院的所有的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14218.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14242.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個是一個花蓮地方刑事判決這個看一下這個已經幾年前的一個判決書這裏面特別提到這個被告違反山坡地百味利用條例的案件這裏面主文犯山坡地百味利用條例第34條第一項之 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14246.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14273.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
非法懇職罪除有期徒刑6個月而亦可罰金這裏面最主要就是說違反犯罪的事實違反這個土地業經行政院公告為山坡地保育用條例所稱之山坡地我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14277.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14289.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
山坡地百會利用條例第3條本條例所稱山坡地是要經過行政院核定公告之公私有土地很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14295.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14301.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
公有或私人他人散播地不得擅自懇職佔用違反第1項違反第4條規定有期徒刑及併科罰金隨度保持法 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14316.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14343.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
很重要的一點山坡地保育區不等於山坡地山坡地保育區不等於山坡地區計劃法第11條山坡地保育區他有這些定義有這個定義好我們看了這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14344.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14370.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
被判有期徒刑的案子他是花蓮縣萬榮鄉紅葉段1457地號按照行政院農委會當時的水土保持局這個並不是山坡地並不是山坡地另外一筆土地紅葉段1457之18地號 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14374.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14398.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
也行政院未核定公告為三波地所以這個判決是錯誤的判決一般當然他可以上訴但是因為這個八十幾歲的老先生八十幾歲的老先生殺其萊雅族 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14401.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14428.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
他從小就在這個土地上耕種使用而且他又是原住民保留地因為不同鄉住在鄉因為是另外一個萬隆鄉他住是住在瑞穗鄉他是隔壁所以他也不知道要申請保留這就是祖先留下來的土地就繼續使用了然後就被隔壁的瑞穗瑞穗農場 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14432.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14435.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
立法院委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14463.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14487.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
現在是怎樣你現在上網還在所以這個人的一生的清白他的子女人家一上網一查他的父母親怎麼樣就是有行者的人所以第一個要解決的是什麼一直沒有解決他人死了沒有辦法上訴對不對我們說他的子女可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14489.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14490.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
律師律師律師律師律師律師律師律 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14522.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14530.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我之前也問過你們的副秘書長 可不可以不要上網 現在上網還在喔他說回去演繹啊 演繹到現在啊 現在上網還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14548.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14552.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
原住民族基本法第20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利山坡地百貨運動條例37條 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14574.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14601.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
山坡地範圍內沿住民保留地．除議法不得事由外．應輔導沿住民．取得成租權．或無償取得所有錢。．無論是沿基法．或是山坡地保育令條例．說寫得非常明確．但是因為基層的．或是中央的．縣的一直沒有做得很好．所以很多我剛講的案例． |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14604.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14618.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
他從小在那邊工作80幾歲工作到後來被判刑就是因為沒有輔導他起的所有錢他已經是原住民保留地 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14622.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14650.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們也有所謂的增化編原住民保留地如果一般的國有土地符合這個原基法或是增化編保留地的條件他可以去增編原住民保留地拿到所有錢但是這個工作辦了幾十年了始終沒有辦完了還很多案子所以我之前有特別希望我們這個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14656.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14682.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
司法院能夠做做一個統一解釋什麼叫統一解釋就是說希望說只要涉及到這個我們人民可以證明說他這個祖先留下來的土地現在正在辦正在辦理真化邊連住民把留地的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14684.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14708.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
他如果被相關的機關提起訴訟的時候是不是可以暫緩暫緩審查先讓他走完行政流程因為行政流程很長從鄉鎮公所去申請保留地 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14710.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14739.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
或是所有錢然後還要經過縣政府縣政府還要送到工廠管理機關工廠管理機關還要送到研明會研明會還要報行政院那個程序非常的冗長在這麼冗長的過程當中是不是可以如果有這樣的案件被移送的時候能夠暫緩等整個行政流程完了之後再處理這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14741.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14762.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
你沒有做過開會討論才否定說否定說就是說可以先不判刑簡單講就一般的說法就先不要判但是沒有做處理不宜討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14767.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14768.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
再提法律問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14796.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14797.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
林佩祥委員洪孟楷委員楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14825.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14826.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
政政前委員蔡奕瑜委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14842.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14845.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
張家俊委員何新淳委員黃珊珊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14868.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14889.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
秘書長我想請問一下我們的債務清理條例大概是民國95年通過的那這幾年其實已經從95年到現在已經將近18年目前法院司法院對於債清條例它的成效還有現在執行的狀況您的看法是什麼我們請民視聽那個周庭長 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14895.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14909.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
關於我們目前債務清理條例的那個申請事件跟裁定准許的比例數量應該少很多了吧其實有在下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14911.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14933.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
但是現在有一些新興的所謂15年來大概我們的內容在境條例其實沒有太多的修正幾乎沒有對於新的狀況做一些調整這邊我想跟秘書長分享就是說現在台灣其實最大的影子銀行你知道是誰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14936.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14960.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
印資銀行非金融機構其實都在做債務的融資甚至出令對吧融資公司有6000多家有三大家融資出令公司資產非常的龐大但是他們都在債清條例之外對吧目前為止他不是用債清條例嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14962.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14989.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這個部分我想是用債清條例不曉得委員關心的是不是所謂他的金融機構的定義的大小的問題是的沒錯因為我們以前的卡債主要是立法的時候是針對銀行尤其是當時信用卡的卡債然後他可能是沒有擔保所以他有一些所謂的信用上面的風險而且在銀行應該要告知或者是對於利率還有負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14990.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15019.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
但是經過十多年銀行被管得很嚴可是外面的融資越來越多大家看過一個影片叫做山道猴子的醫生嗎免頭款全貸款還可以再超貸去一筆錢去改裝所以很多的年輕人幾乎就是掉到這個陷阱裡面那最嚴重的看到很多的民間的新聞好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15019.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15044.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
有人去買了一台休旅車貸款90萬後來錢不夠呢融資公司又打來行銷你還可以再轉貸變貸147萬也就是這些融資公司他是用行銷促銷的方式讓借錢的人借更多的錢負擔更多的債但是他又不受到你們原來債券條例的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15045.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15045.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15057.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15081.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
跟委員報告就是關於這個剛剛委員提到兩個問題就是我們的金融管理融資公司這些其實他在債務經理條例他是債權人的地位那麼其實債權人的地位這些金融融資公司好了或者我們一般的資產管理公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15082.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15088.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
雖然不能像銀行那樣去召開所謂債權人的協商會議但其實就債務人來適用這個消債條例其實是沒有影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15110.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15127.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
司法院在97年有辦理一個消費者債務清理事件應注意事項對於金融機構的定義是要主管機關認定所以這些目前我剛剛才問了金管會他們不認為這是他們管的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15128.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15130.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
金融機關的定義是去參考金融合併法然後設定這幾個金融機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15144.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15146.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
像中租公司這些這麼大的融資註定公司還不夠大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15162.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15186.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
主要是中租公司我是說類似啦我沒有什麼意見我只是說15年了這個機制該修正就要修第二個這些人他們的狀況已經超過當年的卡債規模跟數量都已經比卡債有過之而無不及了第三現在幾乎人手都可以收到任何的簡訊說你可以來借錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15189.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15213.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
所以非常多的年輕人就用這個方式去借了更多的錢然後再輕條例又不能適用造成我們不管是對於打詐也好對於投資詐騙也好對於這種融資公司利用合法掩護他賺取暴利的這種行為也好其實司法院只要改你的這個注意事項就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15213.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15237.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
如果可能的話,這個案子上一屆的江永清委員其實也問過,你們說要研議,研議到現在有答案了嗎?金融機構的部分我們會再考慮,但剛剛委員提到第二個問題,第二個問題是比較,就是說跟一般社會大眾比較有關係的,就是超過擔保價值以外,無擔保的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15240.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15240.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15257.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15285.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
假裝而已啦 假裝看不見那我跟委員報告所以司法院可以先檢討這個部分嗎去年說要研議到現在還沒有給答案這個部分是可以用的這是我一直想跟委員報告那請給我一個正式的書面告訴大家可以用讓法院可以受理我們也可以去一般消費者也可以去申訴也就是超過擔保物價值的無擔保在物還是有在清條例的適用這個是確定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15286.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15287.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15308.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15328.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我的意思就是說不要讓這種明明就存在我們假裝沒看見然後讓它不斷地做大將來就跟當年放任卡債一樣台灣政府現在是放任影子銀行做大的最大的幫兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15329.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15357.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
金管會不管司法院這邊就是等著看所以大家都不管融資租賃公司變成畫外之地第二個他們的資產已經大到不能倒他們大到資產三家公司加起來已經1.5兆了他們的應收賬款就有1兆然後呆帳可以有上百億表示我們有多少人是在這上面受到很大的衝擊如果我們要導正 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15359.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15359.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
有號委員有號委員有號委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15387.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15388.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
嚴寬衡委員賴氏寶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15406.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15426.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束了委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料,再麻煩以書面：或者是書面答覆的再請司法院這邊能夠緊述送交個別委員還有本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15428.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15432.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
今天的本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15468.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15468.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
委員會主席 |