| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:26:10 - 09:37:37 |
| 影片長度 |
687 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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非常感謝今天到場所有的學術專家還有律師、會計師們我知道大家平常都是大忙人願意接受立法院的邀請針對稅務事件審理法的草案提出寶貴的見解先表示個人誠摯的謝意 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
30.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
今天針對稅審法召開公聽會在司法院急急忙忙提出稅審法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我為什麼會要求在立法院召開公聽會因為2017年的時候我們在財政委員會通過了納稅者權利保護法那保法當初針對納稅者權利的保護事實上有高舉非常多的理想但是7年過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
84.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
過去的這7年是不是真的有實現當初納保法所實現的理想也就是說一般的人民跟掌握公權力的國家機器在所謂的稅務高權行為這樣子的一個訴訟脈絡當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
111.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們納稅者權力保護有沒有辦法矯正雙方當事人在訴訟上面本質上所存在的不公平以及不平等那導致了在實務上面產生了非常多讓人很難過的結果也正是因為這個樣子這一次他們在推動所謂的稅審法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
111.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
124.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我對於司法院到今天還不願意公開委員會審議討論的紀錄我老實說我是沒有辦法理解法律人在討論法條尤其是我們專業的司法院為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
131.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
針對有關於稅審法的規定委員會審議討論的紀錄他到底是怎麼生出這樣子的條文這個條文到底要怎麼解釋在討論的過程當中為什麼有必要把它列成是秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
148.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
168.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個對於接下來很多條文的解釋可能都會產生具體的影響或許為了要補足這邊不夠的部分未來司法院在主條解釋的時候恐怕對於每個條文到底要怎麼解釋必須要先想好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
170.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
188.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那當然有很多學者專家跟我在第一次針對這件事情提出質詢的時候也提出相同的看法也就是說在稅務案件當中去在一定的前提條件下科與當事人協力義務這件事情本身沒有什麼太大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
189.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
213.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但問題是說當你跟排除不自證己罪兩者的原則相衝突的時候這個時候要怎麼調和就成為一個重要的問題那這一次在稅審法裡面不僅僅在12條可以當成寫例如在14條它進一步的去排除不自證己罪的原則到第15條甚至連行政訴訟法拒絕證言的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
214.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
242.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
全部都把它排除掉了這樣子的侵入性是不是有必要性會不會太強這個是第一個抽象的問題可能今天也要聆聽許多學者專家寶貴的意見但是更進一步的是什麼更進一步的事情所謂排除不自認己罪這樣子的一個原則如果適用在租稅債務那適用在租稅處罰也有相同餘地的適用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
244.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個是我之前在質詢的時候我一直在請教我們司法院的因為在法條的文字上不管是14條還是15條我看不出來他有要排除租稅處罰的意圖但現實上什麼現實上我們的最高行政法院在好幾個判決當中我事實上只如列出了其中一個當作代表就很清楚的講租稅裁罰的事件是國家刑事處罰高權的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
291.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
跟科稅平等無關而與刑事法類似當事人並沒有協定義務或以責任以自證己作或自證無違規事實而且有無罪推定原則的適用等等因此在這個法律萬一就這樣通過了以後我們要面臨的第一個問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
293.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
308.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們剛剛所講到的不管是14條還是15條的規定是只有適用在租稅債務還是租稅處罰也有一定的適用當中這個會牽涉到非常具體未來在案件當中進行審判的時候這個絕對會影響到最後訴訟的勝敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
311.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
336.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
也會影響到所有納稅人的權益、非常關係的事項我們的司法院在制定這個法條的時候到底有沒有這個意圖要去排除租稅處罰還是租稅處罰也包括在裡面老實說從司法院目前所提出來的所有的資料我完全是看不出來因此租稅債務跟租稅處罰到目前為止在最高行政法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
337.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我所看到的判決比較穩定的就兩者之間的本質做了一些區別那但是在稅審法裡面我完全沒有看到說在稅審法裡面對這兩個進行區別對待明文的法律依據明文的法律依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
354.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
373.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
到時候接下來實際案件在試用的時候會不會對於當事人或者是我們一般的納稅義務人產生過度的侵害我相信這個是在這個法條當中絕對沒有辦法去迴避一個重中之重 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
375.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
393.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
沒有辦法迴避一個重中之重的問題最後一個也是今天我看到很多學術專家我也非常感謝很多學術專家來竟然還提供了書面資料真的非常的認真非常的感謝大家大家有提到的是說你早睡省官 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
394.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
過來協助法官當然我可以理解可能法官在整個法學教育養成的過程當中未必對於所謂稅務的案件或是稅額的計算有像一般在念財稅專科的這樣專業背景的人有相同的專業所以找稅審官來幫忙但問題是說你找稅審官來幫忙如果是從行政機關借調的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
419.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
441.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
今天我很感謝有一位不好意思我看一下因為牽涉到人家的名字我覺得要慎重一點王漢清 王庭長他所提出來的書面報告我報讀了以後他是以那個時候智慧財產法院裡面的技術審查官當作例子從那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
443.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
455.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
實際上面實踐的結果來看對於所謂稅審官的設置在實際案件上面會產生的影響那如果說啊未來是從公部門借調的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
457.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
486.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
以前技術審查官從智慧財產局借調是由智慧財產局來加以考評這個事情可能等一下最後再請我們的司法院具體的回覆一下因為你如果說是從行政機關借調的是由行政機關負責考評的話那可能在稅審官的脈絡當中大家所擔心官官相互的現象可能會更強烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
487.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
511.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現在有關於在智慧財產權法院裡面那一邊 汪庭長所指責這樣一個重要事務上面的運作未來在你們所設想上面的稅審官是不是會產生相同的運作可能最後也必須要請我們司法院具體回覆一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
529.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那第18條的規定,剛剛也有學者指出來第18條的規定會不會讓稅審法接下來在所謂訴訟標的的認定上或是訴訟標的對於後訴訟所產生即判例客觀範圍、遮斷效的範圍上面產生一個過強烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
535.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
556.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
的效果那這個可能也是要請司法院特別予以斟酌特別是在18條第二項排除於時提出攻擊防禦方法奪回的例外規定那我當然可以看得出來這個稅審法可能是從民事訴訟法相關有關於於時提出攻擊防禦方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
557.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
573.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
司權校的例外規定把它列出來但是我相信我們的司法院副秘書長自己也是民事訴訟法的專家這個條文在民事訴訟的脈絡當中解釋所造成的困難所造成的爭論 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
574.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
590.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在稅審法這次有沒有要解決還是打算把民事訴訟那邊所產生的困難跟爭論原封不動的 首諾罵罵直接到稅審法裡面以後繼續會產生相同的爭論那我就講一個最簡單的例子 你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
592.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
611.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個攻擊防禦方法的提出不慎言之訴訟這個時候如果與時提出的時候也不用駁回那在這裡所謂的不慎言之訴訟請問你們所採取的標準是什麼是絕對言之還是相對言之是絕對言之還是相對言之那可能一般非法律系的人聽不懂但我相信副秘書長絕對聽得 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
613.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
636.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
絕對聽得懂 什麼叫絕對言誌 什麼叫相對言誌在明日訴訟法那邊就已經吵翻天了你把相同有爭議的文字搬到這個地方來我在你們立法理由裡面我還是沒有看到你打算用絕對言誌還是用相對言誌那不管你用絕對言誌還是用相對言誌接下來連接的到羈絆立客觀範圍所產生這段效的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
637.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
662.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
兩者之間的因果關係是什麼我的意思是說如果是用不慎言之訴訟當作例外的理由來開放或者是說因此而被駁回的話那這個時候對於紀判例的客觀範圍所產生這段效的範圍兩者之間所存在的互動關係是什麼那這個恐怕也是司法院在整個立法的說明當中必須要予以補強的否則我可以預期 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
663.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
685.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
否則我可以預期大宋稅審法正式施行上路了以後在實務上面所造成的問題恐怕你們恐怕比你們今天所要解決的問題還要多那最後非常感謝在場所有的學者專家今天願意來參加這場公聽會你們寶貴的意見一定會成為我們接下來審理法案的時候重要的依據謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
156642 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156642 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024110659 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-11T09:26:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-11T09:37:37+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |