| IVOD_ID |
156408 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156408 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-15-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-04T10:57:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-04T11:05:35+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408c469a7c0bb8de340cdd5a1250ef41c2872b3567a8930802c9eca1244ea1315045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王美惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:57:11 - 11:05:35 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。） |
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三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
56.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
58.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
102.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
109.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
131.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
143.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
160.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
175.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
190.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
200.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
200.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
207.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
232.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
235.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
237.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
248.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
250.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
273.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
282.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
303.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
308.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
尤其在英國脫歐的選,他也不是綁大選的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
310.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
332.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
338.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
340.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
349.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
356.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
公投要在綁大選有可能發生的種種的弊病我相信我今天在這裡說很多我是期待誠懇的站在一個選務機關以負責任的態度要來拜託所有有條約的委員大家可以共同議期我們要讓選務順利進行讓選民的意見有辦法清澈來表達讓選舉和公投的議題有辦法經緯分明 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
377.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
379.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
402.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
403.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
419.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
420.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
439.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
445.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
466.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
468.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
498.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
502.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員 |
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596 |
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王委員美惠：（10時57分）主席，我們請主委。 |
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主席：請李主委。 |
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李主任委員進勇：委員你好。 |
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王部長美惠：主委你好。今天我們委員會要修公投法，在委員會裡面最重要的就是我們要討論如何來做得更好、更方便。 |
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李主任委員進勇：是。 |
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王委員美惠：剛才有很多同事跟主委說外國也有，不過這個外國也有，我們只有說到美國，而美國是各州去實行的，在這裡面我比較擔憂的是我們身為一個民主國家，才能有這個公投法，在公投法當中，你有你的想法，我有我的想法，我們是要把未來的法再修好一點，而不是把我們的法越修越誇張。就像剛才所說的，公投法裡面如果將10案、5案寫在同一張，因為我們都知道，你去領票的時候，如果你沒有帶印章，你可以按指紋去領票，在這裡面，如果去沾到墨汁或是沾到什麼有的沒的，我們就可以把它當成廢票了，不過最主要的是公投裡面如果有5案，5案裡面每一個的想法不同，投的也不一樣，如果他拿起來要投下去的時候，他手上的印泥剛好黏在第3案或第2案的時候，請問主委這是有效還是無效？請回答一下。 |
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李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員對這個問題的了解非常深入，確實有這種情形的話，有效票、無效票的認定真的會發生很大的爭議。 |
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王委員美惠：不過主委，我要跟你探討的是，如果像我講的手指去沾到第2案、第3案的話，而這張公投票裡面有5案的時候，依照你現在的認定，這張票裡面的5案是全部都無效，還是沾到的第2案、第3案無效而已，請回答一下。 |
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李主任委員進勇：跟委員報告，很慶幸我們現在是一案一張，不會發生這種情形…… |
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王委員美惠：不是，就是要預防嘛！ |
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李主任委員進勇：但如果是這樣的話，確實會產生爭議，至於這個爭議要怎麼認定它是否有效，到現在都還不知道，這都必須要再討論。 |
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王委員美惠：主委說的有爭議的時候，就是要回到2018年一邊選舉一邊開票的情形，如果像你說的又發生爭議的話，會更嚴重耶！ |
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李主任委員進勇：會更嚴重，所以我們應該要避免，讓它維持一案一張票。 |
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王委員美惠：要維持一案一張票啦？ |
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李主任委員進勇：是。 |
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王委員美惠：你也認為這樣爭議很大，時間也拖很長。在我們的監票當中，有的會說，那個是作票、那個是怎樣，如果未來決定是一張票裡面有5案，你要怎麼去做？不一定是什麼設定，現在我們是要改變、要修法，依你的專業，你認為怎麼樣比較好？ |
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李主任委員進勇：維持現在的辦法最好。 |
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王委員美惠：維持現在的辦法最好，就是一案一張，跟大選分開，才不會好的人才不知道是怎麼……大選就是選人，公投就是投事情，所以有時候會讓人才被抹滅，會因為這樣而導致選舉的結果不同。 |
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李主任委員進勇：焦點會模糊掉。 |
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王委員美惠：對，有的會覺得這樣我就不要去投了，主委，這也有可能的。像剛剛我們說的，美國的公投是用每一州去投的，尤其歐洲的資料，在英國脫歐的時候，他們也不是綁大選的。主委，你們要審慎評估，尤其你們未來還有兩場公聽會，你們要把你們的意見表達出來，要怎麼做好是你們的責任。主委，你在這裡說現有的辦法最好，你還可以提出更好的辦法跟方法來說服今天有提案的人嗎？請主委回答。 |
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李主任委員進勇：公投要再綁大選可能會發生的種種弊病，我相信我今天在這裡已經說很多了，我是非常誠懇地站在一個選務機關以負責任的態度要來拜託所有提案的立法委員，希望大家可以共同維持，我們要讓選務可以順利進行，讓選民的意見有辦法可以清楚地表達，讓選舉跟公投的議題有辦法可以涇渭分明，讓百姓比較容易做決定，我們還是應該維持現行的辦法。 |
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王委員美惠：像主委說的，如果這樣公投下去，如果改變現有的，你們的選務人員會沒辦法負荷，像這點你有可能去改變、去改進嗎？如果像你剛剛解說、報告的那樣。 |
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李主任委員進勇：我剛才有報告過，像瑞士的辦法是公投跟選舉分開，不但是分開，公投單獨辦理的時候，一次可以辦幾件？他是限制在4件以下，所以他是脫鉤而且是限制量的，這是最澈底的。當然，臺灣如果有辦法做到這樣，我們現在已經是脫鉤，如果能夠再就公投成案的量予以限制的話，我覺得那是最好的，瑞士的辦法最好…… |
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王委員美惠：因為主委，我們是要以臺灣中華民國現有的選務人員加以考量，在這個過程當中，我們之前就已經快請不到人了，所以我們才會增加選務人員的費用，未來如果真的這樣規定下去，我比較煩惱的是會請不到人啦！主委，如果要改變現有公投的問題，公投綁大選的時候，我怕你們會請不到人。所以你們要趕快去說服提案的人，要怎樣可以讓臺灣每一件事修法之後可以越修越好，而不是越修越退步。 |
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李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。 |
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主席：謝謝。 |
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接下來請李柏毅委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
120 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-15-7 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-11-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1139301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1139301_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬
具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分
條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 18 人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」
案；五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1139301_00001 |