| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe5c93d73955525da07ade09287612b20ad66daa4be0611873b25d39fa0c7cb71d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
魯明哲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:22:13 - 10:53:35 |
| 影片長度 |
1882 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月22日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
21.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
21.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
喂?好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
44.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好,謝謝主席。有請我們行政院委員、左院長、交通部、陳部長。好,謝謝兩位。我們直接進入議題。今天其實討論的不光是我們桃園非常重要的建設,也是全國民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
72.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
88.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們出入國境的一個門禁會特別感謝我們的這個當時的發言人現在的部長當時追隨院長在上任一個月6月21號就完成第一個願望最想看的是提三號 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
89.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
110.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
三航廈整個一個相關的一個進度那天我也看到特別的報導你本身有三大期許第一個你希望它的進度能夠控制好希望在明年度我們的北登的一個廊下可以完成2027年可以我們的主體建築相關的運作能夠順利完工 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
111.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
112.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
137.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
165.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個院長你對於這個三行下相關的一個工作如期如資的完工有沒有信心啊?謝謝委員首先他整個設計是非常施工上非常難的所以他新建好之後他應該會成為一個世界的焦點所以我才希望有那個期許那明年四、五月份吧北廊道能夠先行使用雖然他整個暫停還沒有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
166.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
191.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
飛機降落之後可以用北廊道來進到我們現有的航廈裡面這個是應該可以如期做我現在比較擔心的是它後續啊因為在這個呃包承包的工程上面有一些人力上的欠缺那我也有請陳部長一定要緊速的去把這些事情能夠完成也請淘汰公司能夠針對問題做有效的管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
192.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
208.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那部長你有沒有細心阿,2027我們整個T3完工可以啟用,你有沒有細心?是,報告委員,我們北郎廳的部分沒有問題啦,那主體行下委員也一直都很關心,所以我們也特別有跟這個民航局也好,或是淘汰公司也好,一直在研商這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
209.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
209.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
233.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
255.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好,事實上淘機這個一波三折啊,它的坦克路啊,事實上從2013年,我們當時就寫覺得一、二航廈不太夠,當時就覺得我們要做第三航廈。所以這麼早,已經十幾年前了,2013年的時候,就已經把總顧問啊,標出去了,由荷蘭的機場的一個顧問公司啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
255.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
256.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
魯明哲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
270.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
273.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
二、20月22日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
286.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
309.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
三行下能順利運作的工程? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
326.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
326.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我要提一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
351.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
368.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
有可能是微爆彈,事實上媒體記者已經報了,已經說了嘛,那到底是什麼情況?我想首先請教一下部長,因為你在1月20,抱歉抱歉,9月26號,在交通委員會那天我主持會議,特別委員問到PMS,就這個系統, |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
370.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
一、二、三呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
408.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們決定了不用軌道了我們要突破全世界最低我們就用自家電吧我們認為技術已經成熟了那這個的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
436.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
部長你之前已經一個月啦你承諾一個月嘛一個月了解問題PMS到底出了什麼問題現在解決狀況如何?他目前是這個樣子就是說廠商跟廠商之間上包商跟下包商之間有些合約上面的問題啦那他們目前正在解決當中那他有可能不想用那個李立這間公司陳昱不想用李立這間公司但這個部分他們還在合約的協商當中那我目前還在找看裡面有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
438.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我沒有像部長這麼了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
466.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
483.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那我跟你講遇到什麼問題因為我覺得有急迫性當部長或是說院長你們覺得我們來研究處理在找問題的時候現在問題火已經燒起來你們有什麼時間去找你如果現在不解決它是2月19號開工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
484.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
506.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第一期要交報告是NTP加180點6個月8月底不是現在已經10月了在9月8月8月底就要陸續分包商設計報告要審查所以現在現在你知道嗎在系統系統分包商就如你說的還有生意還在吵架中啊那這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
508.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
531.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個到底發生了什麼事呢?我跟你講,本來是軌道工程,全世界我相信院長、部長還有我們主委,世界各國走一走,大概用軌道工程的居多,串接的居多。那現在到底發生什麼事呢?自動電發其實本來是軌道的。在108年10月,當時林佳龍部長主持一個會議, |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
555.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那我不講後面有沒有用意阿 因為這個沒有意義 我們談一個問題齁 組織一個會議 後面在整個會議結論中 壓了一個小字 請機場公司研究一下 在T3整體十幾個標案中間 有沒有其他的 除了主體工程之外 有沒有其他的部分可以減省費用阿 那就 你這樣講就好了嘛 瓜胡 盧 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
558.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
558.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
李克運輸系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
576.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
590.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
自駕巴士這個模式來取代工程。 到了去年112年的12月就決標了今年2月開始啟動了所以現在已經大概動了7個多月 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
591.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
617.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
到了NTP加270天9個月之後不好意思喔所有的審查都要告一段落只剩下一個多月了所以我們現在在研究什麼呢研究我們出體工程我們院長這麼費心就算缺工的問題應該我是覺得就算2027沒有完成2028也會完成可是如果你的在管制區內管制區內他不能出來他要到T1、T2 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
619.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
621.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
陳柱惠你自己上來了,因為上次我在交友會我也有質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
633.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
647.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
現在簡單來說嘛就是去年年底發生了什麼事呢決定自動電巴的時候去年年底招標嘛那三個團隊三組團隊來投標參與嘛誰來標到這17.5億17.45億的一個標案結果絕標了還不是絕標了那各位看到圖上第一組就是得標拿到獎盃的得標的廠商啊承應 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
659.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
663.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
682.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
711.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我那天跟你講的現在卡了已經事實上已經要交報告了系統商還在吵架這個到底是我們當時你知道嗎選人是怎麼選的我想採購法民國87年上路到現在這麼久了是不是法規有問題是不是系統不完備還是委員上場的評鑑制度有一點問題為什麼我們常常常常選到的都是不OK的廠商我覺得很怪你研究了有沒有一個報告我們大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
715.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
737.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
陳韻是主保長,她用的是履歷的時機,就是系統的時機。得標之後,因為他們大概相關問題談不攏,所以陳韻是想用公園院的經驗來取代履歷。這部分必須符合政府採購法,就是說要有必要性,然後要 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
738.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
742.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
760.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
787.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
假設他到今年比方說11月他該完成的工作如果沒有完成那就請淘汰公司依政府採購法該怎麼處理就怎麼處理好部長一年了解將近一個月成員加上履歷一個做車一個做系統因為光有車沒有辦法自駕啦因為靈魂在這裡靈魂哪裡該停哪裡該開門哪裡該怎麼樣這個其實系統是真的是一個靈魂我們在軌道工程已經吃過很多虧了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
787.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
788.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
809.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
812.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我記得早期聽到很多採購法的故事就是這樣玩的兄弟你也弄一標 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
838.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
853.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
老哥你去弄一標我們三個一起去標誰標到大家一起玩玩來玩去換來換去都可以錢兄弟一起賺採購法訂完之後就是要杜絕這個的你這個某種程度不同組合 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
854.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
870.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我的評鑑委員想一想,一家用日本的列車,假設喔,一家用韓國的,我們起經選擇,我們決定,假設要用日本的,結果你,你開工了,哎呦,抱歉啊,日本人換一換,換韓國的,可以這樣玩,可以這樣搞嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
871.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
885.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你們評鑑 把評鑑當白癡吧評鑑了 罪憂 賜憂 如果這制度是有用的話 你不能這樣搞啊所以 陳昀跟李立 現在也沒有同意嘛 他們還是一個團隊嘛我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
887.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
905.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個院長其實真的你這邊要注意一下因為各個部會都有這樣的一個情況那天我在交友會特別在講說奇怪了為什麼很多公共工程啊都有很多的渣男廠商啊就其實做不好但他說得很好你知道嗎說得很好然後這個也騙到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
905.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
906.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
926.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
949.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這是一個檢報,就是招標,針對這個標案的檢報。 報告人呢是誰?是陳韻的總經理,跟系統李立的李家盧,這個執行長。 也就是說,我覺得合理啊,因為你光報告車體要怎麼做,不會跑沒有用啊。 系統廠商,所以不是我們誰講,哎呀那個是... |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
950.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
972.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
裝螺絲令的分包商啊,給他換一下沒有關係啊,這系統廠商還上去打分數得標,可能就他的一個原因。 但是我一個問題是說,他的簡報第9月齁,第9月,那我就,履約能力啊,就是你為什麼要選我們陳韻、李莉。 抱歉,我告訴你,我打遍江湖無敵手,我做過台鐵的列控4.0。 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
973.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
974.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我這個要問院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1002.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1021.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
委員長,內控4.0用在台鐵,台南沙崙南科的自駕,你不會沒有聽過吧?被細節不用啊,做得好不好?還是現在有沒有開始營運啊?在你印象中啊?現在有沒有營運啊?應該是還沒有正式的,應該是試驗性的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1027.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1033.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
臺鐵那個部分,臺鐵是說他們已經驗收合格了?對阿,你知道他在做什麼?就是我要做這個,在這個一個小塊做一個實驗,做一個實驗,啊實驗成功了。他弄到臺鐵,臺鐵PASS你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1048.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1065.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
臺灣董事長怎麼說﹖對這個研究但是CP值太貴了﹖所以他中間會撿幾項零件來繼續研究﹖就表示這個系統沒有全部被拿走了﹖他要拿這個系統去做下一個﹖你不是嚇死人嗎﹖簡單來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1068.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1096.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這都是現在的官員嘛齁 林信德主委在今年的4月5個月前特別說了行控4.0其實剛完成POC啦就是concept還沒有進入POS跟POP啦那還距離非常非常遠可是你知道嗎一個新產品或者一個新計畫你一定要經過至少前兩個前兩個你拿去在外面印在名片上我覺得那還算了就表示真的有點成果嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1097.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1106.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我覺得他講啊目前對於安全提升還沒有實質的效果因為根本沒有進一步的實驗照這樣現在看進一步實驗可能也不會找他嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1107.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1131.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那臺南沙崙他作為這個機場PMS的優質旅業的條件,我的天啊,你知道這個評價是怎麼樣咧?他自駕,因為在練習的時候沙河實驗啊,在那邊的實驗都要一個人坐在那裡,不敢讓他真正自駕,那叫實驗,一個人看著,但是不准他動,小手不准動,腳也不要亂踩。 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1132.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1133.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
實際成果不如預期,可是很糟糕。 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1160.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1179.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你知道嗎,他到政府標案裡面,因為履歷只是其一啦,拿著這個,拿著這個,對,政府也給他一個五千多萬,一個七千多萬,其實他用了,他用到錢沒自己花,拿出去變成他的履歷。我覺得這個院長,你覺得這個東西你未來要怎麼樣去把關啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1181.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1183.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
院長你聽到這樣的到目前為止後面還沒出來弄好你幹嘛做你會不會擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1207.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1226.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你就是這樣得就是你趕快去做現在在吵架還在實驗你知道嗎當時講說要變過來每個學者講說哇技術成熟好像技術非常非常成熟啊結果得標之後是摸著石頭過河啊下一步水多生不知道趕快來救明天要開會了系統怎麼寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1228.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1250.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這亂搞你敢不敢做,但是我跟你講,我們敢不敢做不重要,但是以他估的人次,以機場公司估多少人會做,他說初期一年大概6到700萬,如果成熟之後大概1000多萬個旅客在裡面,所以我們不能把旅客當白老鼠,那如果再這樣搞下去,我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1251.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1252.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
在一個標案裡面﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1280.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1300.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
不能你兇我弟喔!你我的計畫在同一標案、同樣的條件、時間、同樣的委員做出了成績。你不知道哪裡比較差一點,但是抱歉,抱歉,你就是第二名的系統廠商。我覺得丁玲她講得比較好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1301.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1329.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那現在呢他們兩個是同案按照採購法不同的團隊投標的賞商如果可以這樣換來換去最後你回答我可以這樣的話標完隨便換我覺得你簡報你比較好來弄完了可以換來換去可以這樣搞來搞去的話我跟你講以後在地方政府什麼事情啊那就不得了了因為你兄我弟啊大家一起來嘛後面搞不好你得標我也來做我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1331.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1356.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主委是要非常慎重雖然採購法適應記者第36條有規定可是你要換包商換其他的分包商當然你要優於或者訓明理由可是你要換一起跟你標的主辦機關同意就是淘氣公司要同意那目前所謂更換承包商只是承運公司對外的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1357.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1385.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對外索爾裔建築媒體但是實際上並沒有做這樣的一個動作所以最終淘氣公司會做最後的決定目前淘氣公司還沒有所以報紙登李立還是工研院誰是分包三答案是李立嘛李立沒有問題嘛那我就覺得奇怪了那是要有人違法嗎我們再看一下2月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1387.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1395.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
陳韻德標正式開工2月19日﹖發生了什麼事情﹖他的系統承包商是上面紅色的李立﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1397.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1424.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
二月3、4、5、6、7五個半月沒有找他開過一次會沒有找他的系統商 你們我們剛剛公認喔他的系統商還是李立喔 還是李立喔沒找他開一次會好 那找誰開會啊別家的姑娘比較漂亮一剛開始喔 他關你什麼採購法我覺得這種陳昀真的莫名其妙你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1426.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1448.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
採購法,公園院也莫名其妙,我跟你講公園院經濟部投資的喔,你提供這麼多你看看喔,2月2號提供什麼,自駕技術的介紹,也就算了。 3月10號提供什麼,我教你現控技術。 22號現控技術,29號把他的傳家寶高清地圖的定位,跟承運簡報。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1449.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1478.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
然後6月份再跟陳昱,他不是分包商耶,他是對手的分包商耶,然後你看物件追蹤、安全驗證、運算,我覺得離譜到極致,他跟,不是他的承包商、分包商,開了10次會。我跟你講,我覺得院長,你這個我認為是已經違法,或者已經非常接近違法了,為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1480.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1507.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你怎麼可以找他我還沒有改你法律上你還不是這個的分包商對工業業來講你的know-how就是你的價值你的know-how你不會說我沒有提供給他鋼筋水泥你的know-how你整個搬給他你知道搬給他做什麼嗎因為承運每個禮拜都要跟機場公司跟世西開一次會每次會議中經常要不要問到系統你的進度在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1508.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1536.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他沒有找履歷,資料從哪來的,你猜猜看好不好。 可以這樣搞嗎?Know-how是有價的喔。Know-how是有價錢的喔。 現控你給他,是政府人民的錢喔。經濟部給你這麼多研究的錢,你研究出來了。 你沒有得標,你也沒有簽約,他也不會給你錢。 機場公司也沒授權你,交通部也沒叫你去,經濟部也沒叫你去。 你自己去跟他開了秘密會議10次。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1537.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1545.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以到底誰實質是神域的系統分包商?部長你看一下這張圖的話你覺得是誰? |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1547.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1550.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
你會來做什麼事?你會來依法做什麼?對不對?依法簽約完整之後這前面叫什麼?作弊? |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1576.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1596.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
前面要做什麼?你看採購,他看採購法沒有,你知道嗎?我管我什麼?我根本不管你。他看我們交通部、經濟部也沒有,誰能管我?我就是把我的船家寶都拿出去,這麼多東西,至少十幾千萬的東西,你拿給陳韻,你沒有出面,他拿你東西報告,這很惡劣,很惡劣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1597.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1622.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
部長他就目前還沒有簽約還沒有換分包商嘛對不對那機場公司你說這個陳韻找陳韻找施夏找他也就算了機場公司說我不知道機場公司到底知不知道知道6月12日就上門要換陳包商但他6月26日說我不同意嘛所以機場公司的立場說我不同意你現在的分包商系統分包商就離地這機場的態度嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1624.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1630.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但不能假的嘛,很假,確定喔,來看一下機場公司的態度喔,話還沒講完喔,接著這個,機場公司在9月4號,9月4號很近喔,我們剛剛從2月到8月,9月4號上個月, |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1643.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1668.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
分包商說明辦理情形承認報告我們未來的分包商會在陸續因為什麼八月剛講八月底八月二十八號嘛已經開始囉六個月到囉要陸續分包商要上來跟我們簡報提供簡報給你審查這膽子多大機場公司9月4號他不同意了結果你看那邊排什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1670.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1692.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我他排10月2號這個自駕操作跟10月9號車輛巡航報告分包商專業分包商設計者是誰公園院然後機場公司公務的孫副總主持會議你不然說我不知道了吧你這樣報告就這樣子我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1694.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1707.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
他們知道而且他們有提醒釋法性跟要符合採購法的部分有提醒你這個寫上去對不對要是機場公司你不能這樣搞啊有一次要開會的時候你又沒有同意所以我是覺得齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1710.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1735.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
現在整個的部分幾個危機第一個因為採購法告來告去弄來弄去可能會變一個爛攤子有可能你的硬體完成之後管制區沒有交通工具可以接駁你是不是要變成開巴士還是怎樣我不清楚但現在再看已經要交卷了再一個半月是要全部我都已經審查完畢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1735.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1759.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
到現在都還沒有 還在那邊搞 我不知道機場公司說沒有換 但是也接受這個報告 我覺得莫名其妙齁那其實最後啊 因為時間也不夠啦 現在因為一堆的問題 9月5、3號開會的時候 這個沒有完成 那個沒有完成那最可怕的是 它應該要提供的 提供的風險管理計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1761.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1761.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1771.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1771.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1806.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1808.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
目前發生什麼事呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1808.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1821.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
消防安全,桃園機場有它自己的消防大隊,算是民營的組織,不是屬於消防署的,但是有160個人,它現在對電動巴士救災的器材只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
1822.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
1847.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
三塊滅火毯,當然啦,這個東西還要做很久嘛,可是滅火毯也沒有用啦,因為那是高價的嘛,它在天上嘛,你也沒辦法上去鋪啦齁。那除了這個之外,它還有最近弄了一些擋水板,那可能在軌道上面也沒有辦法用。所以在這樣的一個準備情況之下齁,我今天是提出來相關的一些問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
1849.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
1850.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
1879.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
1880.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽 |
| gazette.lineno |
344 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
魯委員明哲：（10時23分）謝謝主席，有請我們行政院卓院長跟交通部陳部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請卓院長跟陳部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
魯委員明哲：謝謝兩位。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
卓院長榮泰：魯委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳部長世凱：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
魯委員明哲：我們直接進入議題，今天其實討論的不光是我們桃園非常重要的建設，也是全國民眾出入國境的一個門禁，我也特別感謝當時的發言人──現在的部長，追隨院長，在上任一個月6月21號就完成你第一個願望，最想看的是T3，就是三航廈整個相關的進度。那天我也看到特別報導，你本身有三大期許，第一個，你希望它的進度能夠控制好，希望在明年度北登廊道可以完成，2027年我們主體建築相關的運作能夠順利完工；除了進度之外，也希望說軟硬體的施工單位都能夠跟上；最後一個，我覺得你比較特別啦！一般的官員不太會講，你說希望世界因為這個建築看到不光是宏偉的工程，而是看到我們臺灣文明的細節，我覺得這個很不錯。院長，你現在對於三航廈相關的工作如期如質的完工，有沒有信心？ |
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卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，首先它整個設計在施工上是非常難的，所以它興建好之後，應該會成為世界的一個焦點，所以我才有那些期許。大概明年4、5月份，北廊道能夠先行使用，雖然它整個站體還沒有好，飛機降落之後，可以用北廊道來進到我們現有的航廈裡面，這個應該可以如期做。我現在比較擔心的是後續，因為在承包的工程上面有一些人力的欠缺，我有請陳部長一定要儘速的去把這些事情能夠完成，也請桃機公司能夠針對問題做有效的管控。 |
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魯委員明哲：部長你有沒有信心？關於2027我們整個T3完工、可以啟用，你有沒有信心？ |
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陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們北廊廳的部分沒有問題，委員也一直都很關心主體航廈，所以我們也特別跟民航局也好，或是桃機公司也好，一直在研商施工的過程遇到什麼樣的困難，我們正在努力的克服。我目前所知，對硬體建設的部分他們是有信心，這個沒有問題，但內部裝潢裝設的部分，可能難度上會比較高。不過目前為止，我們施工都還在期程上面，沒有延後，我們還是希望在2027年的下半年，能夠準時，如期如質來完工。 |
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魯委員明哲：好，事實上桃機一波三折，關於它的坎坷路，從2013年我們當時就覺得一、二航廈不太夠，我們要做第三航廈，所以這麼早，已經十幾年前了，在2013年的時候就已經把總顧問標出去了，由荷蘭機場的一個顧問公司帶了一個團隊來得標，幫我們做總顧問。隔了幾年，好不容易找到世曦來做設計方面的一個顧問，後來開始流標，因為原物料漲價、人工不易，所以主體大概調升了一百多億，接著在2021標出去，而剩下就是我簡報上面的，你們就看一下，而我們在2022年的時候，發現它能源中心的偉銓營造好像也倒了。所以我覺得這點點滴滴，包括物價上漲又要找預算，還有在今年初又爆了一個我們行李的X光機到底合不合格、廠商好不好等等的爭議，我講了這麼多，都已經突破困難慢慢向前走了，你們覺得還有沒有什麼比較嚴重，除了主體建築物本身，有沒有會影響到三航廈能夠順利運作的工程啊？部長，你先說吧，有沒有？還有沒有什麼未爆彈？ |
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陳部長世凱：目前他們給我的回報，我們的工程…… |
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魯委員明哲：該爆都爆完了？ |
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陳部長世凱：其實工程的部分，大概延宕0.91%這樣而已，其實不多啦，未來發包的部分，他們也跟我講目前看起來都還蠻順利的，所以沒有提出有什麼樣太大的未爆彈，或許委員如果有聽到的話，再給我們提示一下。 |
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魯委員明哲：我要提一個有可能是未爆彈，事實上媒體記者已經報導了、已經說了，到底是什麼情況？首先請教一下部長，在9月26號的交通委員會，那天我主持會議，特別有委員問到PMS，這個系統決定採用自駕電巴的一個模式，遇到了一些困難，我不太清楚你查得怎麼樣，但是這樣的一個電巴，如果沒有做好，如果人家還有轉機，但航廈不能走過去啊！航廈看起來很近，但沒有辦法在路上走啊！那都是高速公路，沒有辦法，所以要有串接連接的bus，一、二航廈是用軌道，已經用了18、19年，蠻順暢的，那我們T2、T3呢？我們決定了不用軌道，我們要突破全世界做第一，我們認為技術已經成熟了，就用自駕電巴。這個部分已經一個月，部長你承諾一個月瞭解問題，PMS到底出了什麼問題？現在解決狀況如何？ |
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陳部長世凱：目前是這個樣子，就是廠商跟廠商之間、上游包商跟下游包商之間有些合約上面的問題，他們目前正在解決當中，成運公司不想用理立這間公司，但這個部分他們還在合約的協商當中，我目前還在找看看裡面有什麼問題，並且要協助，重點是要請桃機公司協助他們。 |
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魯委員明哲：所以現在還在找是不是？可以這樣嗎？ |
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陳部長世凱：討論是不是要協助，讓他們繼續把東西，像委員所說的要如期如質的上線。 |
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魯委員明哲：院長，你有沒有聽說發生什麼問題，這個自駕電巴，在T2、T3這樣一個用自駕電巴的系統，標也標出了，遇到什麼問題，你有沒有聽說啦？部長，有沒有跟你回報？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我沒有像部長這麼了解。 |
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魯委員明哲：好，那我跟你講遇到什麼問題，因為我覺得有急迫性，當部長或是院長你們覺得要研究處理，在找問題的時候，問題是火已經燒起來，你們沒有什麼時間去找，如果現在不解決，它是2月19號開工的，第一期要交報告，是NTP加180天（6個月），8月底，不是現在，現在已經10月了，在8月底就要陸續分包商，設計報告要審查，所以現在系統分包商就如你說的，有爭議、還在吵架中，這到底發生什麼事？我跟你講，本來是軌道工程，我相信院長、部長還有主委，在世界各國走一走，用軌道工程串接的居多，現在到底發生什麼事呢？自動電巴其實本來是軌道的，在108年10月，當時林佳龍部長主持一個會議，我不講後面有沒有用意，因為這沒有意義，我們談一個問題，他主持了一個會議，在整個會議結論中押了個小字，請機場公司研究一下，在T3十幾個標案中，除了主體工程之外，有沒有其他部分可以減省費用，那這樣就講就好了嘛，他用了括弧──（如旅客運輸系統）；林佳龍部長很聰明，用了括弧。 |
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111年，林國顯董事長，也是當時民航局局長，他就按照這個括弧裡面的內容去開了一個會，找一些專家學者，然後決定採用電動自駕巴士這個模式來取代工程。去（112）年12月就決標了，今年2月開始啟動了，所以現在已經動了七個多月，到了NTP加270天（9個月）之後，不好意思喔，所有的審查都要告一段落，只剩下1個多月。所以我們現在在研究什麼呢？研究主體工程，我們院長這麼費心，就算有缺工的問題，我覺得就算2027年沒有完成，2028年也會完成。可是如果是在管制區內、管制區內是不能出來的，要到T1、T2轉機的旅客根本不能出來，沒有這個交通工具是不行運作的。 |
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陳主委你自己上來了，上次我在交通委員會也有質詢，簡單來說，去年底發生了什麼事呢？決定自動電巴，去年年底招標嘛，3組團隊來投標參與，看誰標到這17.45億的標案，結果還不錯，決標了。各位看到圖上，第一組拿到獎杯的就是得標廠商──成運加上理立，一個主要做車體，理立做系統；第二組沒有得標，是華電加工研院做系統；第三組是勤崴加六和。這個標案標出去了，主委，我那天跟你講的，現在卡住了，因為事實上已經要交報告了，系統商還在吵架，到底我們當時選人是怎麼選的？採購法在民國87年上路，到現在這麼久了，是不是法規有問題？是不是系統不完備？還是委員上場的評鑑制度有一點問題？為什麼我們常常選到的都是不OK的廠商？我覺得很怪，你們研究之後有沒有一個報告？大概兩個禮拜了。 |
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陳主任委員金德：跟魯委員報告，成運是主包商，他們用的是理立的系統實績，得標之後，大概因為他們相關問題談不攏，所以成運想用工研院的經驗來取代理立，這部分必須符合政府採購法，就是要有必要性，然後要承辦機關桃機公司的同意，這是第一部分；第二部分就是關於理立，委員也質詢過幾次，我記得好像說他們是「渣男公司」，我們也去了解，的確這個技術是不是成熟，必須是由成運來考量，最後假設他們到今年10月該完成的工作沒有完成，那就請桃機公司依政府採購法，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理。 |
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魯委員明哲：好，部長，因為你了解將近一個月了，成運加上理立，一個做車、一個做系統，畢竟光有車是沒有辦法自駕的，因為靈魂在這裡啦！ |
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陳部長世凱：沒有錯！ |
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魯委員明哲：哪裡該停、哪裡該開門、哪裡該怎麼樣，其實系統真的是一個靈魂，我們在軌道工程已經吃過很多虧了，換了下個系統，還要花大錢！所以系統的部分，我只問你一件事，去年12月的這個組合，機場公司有沒有批准？有無改變它的分包商？有無改變成運的系統商？簡單來講，成運的系統商還是理立？還是工研院或六和？ |
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陳部長世凱：目前應該還是理立，目前桃機公司他們的要求就是依法、依約，因為成運公司跟桃機公司簽了約，就依法、依約下去執行，這是機場公司的要求。 |
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魯委員明哲：好，你剛剛把我待會要講的也講了，成運、理立、華電、工研院，可以這樣玩嗎？我記得早期聽到很多採購法的故事，就是這樣玩的，兄弟，你也弄一標；老哥，你去弄一標；我們三個一起去標，無論誰標到，大家一起玩，玩來玩去、換來換去都可以，錢，兄弟一起賺！訂定採購法，就是要杜絕這個！以這種程度來看，有不同的組合，在評鑑的時候，假設一家用日本的列車，一家用韓國的，幾經選擇之後，假設我們決定用日本的，結果你開工了，唉唷！「歹勢」！日本的換一換，換成韓國的，可以這樣玩？可以這樣搞嗎？你們把評鑑當白癡嗎？評鑑了最優、次優，如果這制度是有用的話，你就不能這樣搞啊！所以成運跟理立現在也沒有同意，他們還是一個團隊。 |
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陳部長世凱：沒錯。 |
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魯委員明哲：院長，真的，你這邊要注意一下，因為各個部會都有這樣一個情況，那天我在交委會特別提到，奇怪了，為什麼很多公共工程都有很多的渣男廠商，其實它做不好，但它說得很好，騙到標案了後面就擺爛，這種東西真的很奇怪，可是我們比較擔心的是，它為什麼可以騙同一機關兩次、同樣的人騙兩次，就很「衰」，你知道嗎？ |
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我們來看看發生了什麼事，現在就把當天的招標現場拉到議場來，左上角的部分，這是一個簡報，就是針對這個招標案做的簡報，報告的人是誰？是成運總經理跟系統商理立的李佳儒執行長，我覺得這合理啊，因為你光放到車體要怎麼做？不會跑也沒有用啊！系統廠商不是我們隨便講講說，那是裝螺絲釘的分包商啦！給它換一下，沒有關係！這是系統廠商，還是上去打分數得標的，可能就是它得標的一個原因。 |
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但是我有一個問題，它簡報第9頁提到履約能力，就是你為什麼要選我們成運、理立？「歹勢」！我告訴你，我打遍江湖無敵手，我做過臺鐵列控4.0，而且飽受好評，改善臺鐵行車安全有多少等等，簡報就是這樣寫的；再來是第11頁，為什麼要選我理立？系統的部分它寫了很多，像臺南沙崙、南科自駕公車載客營運，這都是我要加分的項目。我要請問院長，列控4.0用在臺鐵臺南沙崙、南科的自駕，你不會沒有聽過吧？在你印象中，細節先不談，但做得好不好？現在有沒有開始營運？ |
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卓院長榮泰：頂多是嘗試性的駕駛吧！ |
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魯委員明哲：現在有沒有營運啊？ |
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卓院長榮泰：應該是試驗性的。 |
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魯委員明哲：列控4.0在今年4月…… |
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卓院長榮泰：臺鐵的那個部分，臺鐵說他們已經驗收合格了。 |
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魯委員明哲：對啊！你知道它在做什麼？就是在這一個小塊做一個實驗，實驗成功了，它要弄到臺鐵，臺鐵怕死了，你知道嗎？臺鐵董事長怎麼說呢？他說：這個研究CP值太貴了，所以他中間會撿幾項零件來繼續研究。就表示這個system、這個系統沒有全部被拿走了，它是要拿這個系統去做下一個，這不是嚇死人嗎？簡單來說，這都是現在的官員嘛，林信得主委在今年4月，也就是在5個月前，他特別說行控4.0其實剛完成POC，就是concept，還沒有進入POS跟POB，還距離非常非常遠，可是你知道嗎，一個新產品或新計畫一定要經過至少前兩個，你拿去外面或印在名片上，我覺得那還算了，表示真的有點成果嘛，他講說這個在目前對於安全提升沒有實質效果，因為根本沒有進一步的實驗。照這樣看，以現在來看，進一步的實驗可能也不會找他嘛！ |
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台南沙崙做為機場PMS的優質履約條件，我的天啊，你知道這個評價是怎麼樣嗎？它的自駕，因為在練習的時候，沙盒實驗，在實驗時都要有一個人坐在裡面，不敢讓它真正自駕，那叫做實驗啊！有一個人在看著，但是不准他動，小手不准動，腳也不要亂踩，看這個車可不可以自己走，結果它不但小手亂動、小腳亂踢煞車、油門，人為介入共1,288次，這樣是不是自駕？人為，唉呦，歪了轉一下，太快了踩一下，這個叫做全自駕嗎？天差地別，所以委員，經濟部喔，表示實際成果不如預期，可是很糟糕，他到政府標案裡面，因為理立只是其一，拿著這個，政府也給它一個五千多萬、一個七千多萬，錢給它用了，它自己沒花一毛錢，拿出去變成它的履歷，院長，你覺得這個東西未來要怎麼樣去把關？ |
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卓院長榮泰：公共工程的任何品質安全就是跟承包能力有關係，政府在這裡的把關，我想我們有一定的標準，包括工程會及各相關部會自己在做發包的時候應該要秉持這樣的原則，如果有破壞的話，我們會以嚴格的方式來看…… |
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魯委員明哲：院長，你聽到這樣，到目前為止，後面還沒出來，到時候弄好了你敢不敢坐？你會不會擔心？就是這樣的，你敢不敢去坐？現在在吵架，還在實驗，你知道嗎，當時說要變過來，每個學者都講說技術成熟，好像技術非常非常成熟，結果得標之後是摸著石頭過河，下一步水多深不知道，趕快來救，明天要開會了，系統怎麼寫？這亂搞，你敢不敢坐？我跟你講，我們敢不敢坐不重要，但是以它估的人次，機場公司預估多少人會坐，說初期一年大概六到七百萬，成熟之後大概一千多萬的旅客在裡面，我們不能把旅客當白老鼠。如果再這樣搞下去，我覺得部長跟主委要認真幫院長介入，因為院長話已經押在這邊，我們這整套出來，要讓全世界看到我們文明的細節啊，而不是看到我們這麼粗心，發生的是怎麼回事啊！ |
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再來，剛剛已經講了理立跟工研院，他們兩個是什麼身分？在一個標案裡面不能你兄我弟，你我的計畫在同一標案，同樣的條件、時間，同樣的委員打出了成績，你不知道哪裡比較差一點，但是不好意思，你就是第二名的系統廠商，我覺得第一名講得比較好。現在他們兩個是同案，按照採購法，不同團隊投標的廠商如果可以這樣換來換去，標完了可以隨便換，覺得你簡報比較好就你來，弄完了，可以這樣換來換去、可以這樣搞來搞去的話，我跟你講，以後在地方政府什麼事情就不得了，因為你兄我弟，大家一起來嘛，後面搞不好你得標我也來做。我覺得主委要非常慎重，雖然採購法施行細則第三十六條有規定，可是你要換包商、換其他分包商，當然你要優於，或者是敘明理由，可是你要換成一起跟你競標的，你覺得你要不要小心？ |
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陳主任委員金德：而且要那個主辦機關同意，就是桃機公司要同意…… |
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卓院長榮泰：目前沒有。 |
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陳主任委員金德：目前所謂的更換承包商只是成運公司對外說而已，見諸媒體，但是實際上並沒有做這樣的一個動作，所以最終桃機公司會做最後的決定。 |
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陳部長世凱：目前桃機公司還沒有更換。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
魯委員明哲：好，所以目前，剛剛講了目前還沒換，所以報紙登理立還是工研院，誰是分包商，答案是理立嘛？ |
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陳部長世凱：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
魯委員明哲：理立，沒有問題嘛？ |
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陳部長世凱：是。 |
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魯委員明哲：那我就覺得奇怪了，那是有人要違法嗎？我們來看一下2月份成運得標，正式開工2月19號之後發生了什麼事情？它的系統承包商是上面紅字的理立，從2月開始歷經3、4、5、6、7月，五個半月沒有找理立開過一次會，沒有找它的系統商。我們剛剛都公認了，它的系統商還是理立，還是理立喔，沒有找它開一次會！好，那找誰開會呢？別家的姑娘比較漂亮。一剛開始他管你什麼採購法，我覺得這個成運真的莫名其妙，你知道嗎，不理採購法，那工研院也莫名其妙，我跟你講，工研院是經濟部投資的，你提供這麼多，你看看，2月2號提供什麼？自駕技術的介紹，也就算了；3月10號提供什麼？我教你線控技術；22號繼續教線控技術；29號把他的傳家寶高精地圖的定位向成運簡報；然後6月份再跟成運開會4次，他不是成運的分包商耶！他是對手的分包商耶！然後你看6月份開會的內容包括物件追蹤感測、安全驗證、運算等等，我覺得離譜到極致，成運跟不是它的分包商開了10次會。 |
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我跟你講我確認，院長，這種行為我認為已經違法，或者已經非常接近違法了，為什麼？你怎麼可以找他，我還沒有改，法令上你還不是此案的分包商。對工研院來講，你的knowhow就是你的價值，這是你的KnowHow耶！你不會說我又沒有提供給他鋼筋水泥，你的knowhow你整個搬給他，你這樣搬給他做什麼呢？因為成運每個禮拜都要跟機場公司、跟世曦開一次會，每次會議中經常要不要問到系統，你的進度在哪裡，它沒有找理立，資料從哪來的？你猜猜看好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][2] |
可以這樣搞嗎？knowhow是有價的，knowhow是有價錢的，線控你給它，是政府人民的錢喔，經濟部給你這麼多研究的錢，你研究出來了，你沒有得標，你也沒有簽約，它也不會給你錢，機場公司也沒授權你，交通部也沒叫你去，經濟部也沒叫你去，你自己去跟它開了秘密會議10次，所以，到底誰實質是成運的系統分包商？部長，你看一下，就這張圖的話，你覺得是誰？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
陳部長世凱：是。當然它這麼早就開始找工研院，但是這個成運在9月30號有直接來跟機場公司說，他們希望把工研院跟中華電信等等廠商能夠加進來成為它們的顧問，但是那是9月30號之後的事，那前面的部分…… |
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魯委員明哲：OK，你會來做什麼事？你會來依法做什麼，對不對？依法，簽約完整之後，這前面叫什麼？作弊。前面在做什麼，他視採購法為無物，你知道嗎？我管採購法什麼，我根本不管你，他也看我們的交通部、經濟部如無物，誰能管我？我就是把我的傳家寶都拿出去了。這麼多東西，至少值幾千萬的東西，你拿給成運，你沒有出面，他拿你的東西報告，這很惡劣！很惡劣！部長，它就目前還沒有簽約，還沒有換分包商嘛，對不對？ |
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陳部長世凱：對。 |
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魯委員明哲：那機場公司，你說這個成運私下找工研院也就算了，機場公司說我不知道，機場公司到底知不知道？知道，6月14號成運就上文要換承包商，但機場公司6月26號說我不同意嘛！ |
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陳部長世凱：對。 |
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魯委員明哲：所以機場公司的立場是說我不同意，你現在的系統分包商就是理立，這是機場公司的態度嘛，但是你不能假的嘛…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
陳部長世凱：但是機場公司有…… |
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魯委員明哲：很假。來，看一下機場公司的態度…… |
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陳部長世凱：機場公司有提醒，有提醒他們說適法性跟契約的部分。 |
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魯委員明哲：我的話還沒有講完。接著來看這個圖，機場公司在9月4號，9月4號喔，很近喔，我們剛剛看的是從2月到8月，9月4號上個月分包商說明辦理情形，成運報告我們未來的分包商會再陸續，因為剛剛講8月底，8月28號已經開始囉，6個月到囉，陸續分包商要上來跟我們簡報，提供簡報給你審查。它膽子多大啊？！9月4號的會議耶，機場公司他不同意耶，結果你看這邊排什麼？他安排10月2號車輛自駕操作跟10月9號車輛巡航管理的報告，專業分包設計者是誰？是工研院，然後機場公司公布是孫副總主持會議，這樣你不能說「我不知道」了吧！這樣報告就是這樣子，我覺得這個…… |
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陳部長世凱：他知道，而且他們有提醒適法性跟要符合採購法的部分，有提醒…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
魯委員明哲：對，你這個寫上去對不對？那是機場公司，你不能這樣搞啊！在9月4號開會的時候，你又沒有同意，所以我是覺得現在這整個部分有幾個危機，第一個，因為採購法告來告去、弄來弄去，可能會變成一個爛攤子，有可能你的硬體完成之後，管制區沒有交通工具可以接駁，我不清楚你是不是要變成開巴士還是怎麼樣，但是現在看起來，已經要交卷了，再一個半月，都已經全部審查完畢了，到現在都還沒有，還在那邊搞，我不知道，機場公司說沒有換，但是也接受這個報告，我覺得莫名其妙！ |
| gazette.blocks[56][1] |
最後，因為時間也不夠，現在有一堆的問題，在9月3號開會的時候，這個沒有完成，那個沒有完成，那最可怕的是，他應該要提供的風險管理計畫完全沒有提出來，大家都知道電巴，用電安全在哪裡？它要裝5個快充，在左右的站體各裝2個，維修站裝1個，你也知道，快充本身的問題不大，是車停在那邊，營建署到現在還卡在行政院嘛！我們的公寓大廈管理條例規定在下面可以強制性的要做充電樁，結果營建署考慮以後認為火災的問題要解決，所以目前提醒用電安全、消防安全，我們問了，就直接給你看，目前發生什麼事呢？關於消防安全，桃園機場有它自己的消防大隊，算是民營的組織，不是屬於消防署的，但是有160個人，它現在對電動巴士救災的器材只有3塊滅火毯，當然啦！這個東西還要做很久，可是滅火毯也沒有用啊！因為那是高架的，它在天上，你也沒辦法上去鋪啦！除了這個之外，它最近有弄了一些擋水板，可能在軌道上面也沒有辦法用。所以在這樣的一個準備情況之下，我今天是提出來一些相關的問題，你系統要找對人，讓這個車可以正常運作，像這種消安用電異常管理，你要更有把握，才可以讓這個車上路，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這個建議跟提醒，我們一定會很嚴謹的去了解，做必要的處置，其實工程會是有方式在監控這件事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
魯委員明哲：好，院長，你要下來關心啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
主席：謝謝魯委員，也謝謝卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][1] |
報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是雲林縣台西婦女會的朋友，我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][2] |
報告院會，交通組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘，休息之後進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][3] |
休息（10時53分） |
| gazette.blocks[60][4] |
繼續開會（11時4分） |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
195 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-5 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
范雲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
109 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-22 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138101 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138101_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1138101_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138101_00009 |
| IVOD_ID |
155877 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155877 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-5 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第5次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-22T10:22:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-22T10:53:35+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |