| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065cbc2e8c4fefb9ac9bc7d127954dabfa186d136366eabd3fb8ad6648bb28df2475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
楊曜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:06:30 - 12:23:55 |
| 影片長度 |
1045 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系統」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】
【10月16日及17日二天一次會】） |
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阿謝主席請一下何部長請何部長委員好好我們叫我給你拗一下就是要比較快就對了部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.302 |
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58.092 |
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部長那個今年啊今年就是勞發署曾經有有表示過要訂一下移工的懷孕指引這個確實是一件很重要的事情那因為他指引訂出來以後可以彙整懷孕前後的相關權益我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
59.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
現在好像還沒提出耶對他還在草擬中準備年底那麼現在是草案現在有草案了準備年底啊就是這兩個月裡面要訂出來啦現在正在跟社會諮詢溝通中那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
78.395 |
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97.143 |
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呃...就是在這一個所謂的生育給付這一項上面其他社會面向的團...團體有不同意見啦對有人反對啦對所以這個我們還在勾動部長...部長我...我...我剛剛就...就聽到欸...你們在回...回復...劉建國委員齁就是...欸...欸... |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.906 |
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129.849 |
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銷股票投資也是公會然後呢你做一個指引也不先提出然後也是要先跟社會對話從許民春部長到現在就這6年我覺得勞動部之所以很多政策沒有辦法到位沒有辦法定案就是因為你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.147 |
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150.26 |
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扛著社會共識的大旗延誤了很多應該要立即落實的政策勞保年改也是像這個指引問說為什麼還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
153.39 |
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177.056 |
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也說是要跟社會大眾溝通那問你說為什麼交勞工投資股票也說是工會你就直接給工會來我不是說尊重工會的意見不對我不是這樣子不要誤解就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
179.704 |
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201.307 |
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你行政機關必須要自己有自己的...你自己不先拿出來你的政策版本怎麼溝通?懂我意思嗎?哪一個委員有在溝通啊?這個移工懷孕指引就是在溝通中然後遇到問題這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.052 |
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230.447 |
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遇到...遇到什麼問題?來,你等一下,來好,署長回答一下跟委員報告齁其實這個指引我們在上個會期因為當初委員也關切我們在5月就已經提出一個版本草案那因為這個版本草案因為涉及到很多不同的利害關係團體所以我們正式召開過會議那包含僱主團體、移工團體跟一些社會福利團體等等那還有跨部會,包含衛務部等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.087 |
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253.075 |
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那因為在那個會議當中因為對我們這個草案的內容因為事實上我們很希望把移工的各個階段的需求盡量能夠完整的呈現所以很多的意見大概有表達出來所以五月開完會之後我們大概兩個月內再陸續的把各界的意見再做一些盤點七月的時候其實我們有做了第一次的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
283.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那這個修正因為我們在跟各界再請幫忙再做一些檢視那這些草案的內容現在已經在收斂就是說大部分的內容都已經有共識那剩下的就是跟委員報比較就是說爭議性比較大的事實上就是現在就是家事移工他在這個生育的這個給付的一個補助方面大概會比較有不同意見那目前我們大概就是說也把這樣的意見盡量的再做一些統整我們大概目前有個初步的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
283.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
312.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就是說對於比較特殊的情況之下因為在生產之後比如說有一些很特殊的情況可能又要有一些新生兒或是說他的身體的狀況需要特別照顧那這個時候我們大概希望能夠有一個社會支持的一些資源能夠挹注來補助那經過地方政府評估之後我們就給予這樣一個我們當然是一定要健全看護移工懷孕期間孕前孕後的休假 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
313.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
316.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這個指引裡面呢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
318.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
被照顧者在看護移工休假的時候怎麼獲得照顧這個也是一個重點因為這裡面就是兼顧移工的權益但是還有僱主的權益所以我們這裡面也包含就是說這段期因為空裝級因為沒有照顧的時候我們就是包含現在的喘息跟短照服務喘息呢每年大概只有可以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
344.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
369.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們現在喘息加短照一年52天52次那移工請假的時間是8個星期幾乎就是一整年都會在這個運期裡面被照顧者的喘息機會全部用完所以這個你們假如說真的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
370.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
398.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
要做一個比較完整的質疑有沒有可能跟衛福部討論這一類的事情提高喘息的上限這個我們會來跟衛福部再討論一下我們也希望就是說盡量能夠滿足那大概衛福部這個部分我們再來跟他溝通因為這個才需要討論嘛至於外界的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
400.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
415.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我不大相信說不管從老闆年輕改革到任何指引有辦法獲得社會一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
416.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
434.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
等於說沒有一個政策是凝聚完共識才推出的那就永遠推不出政策懂我的意思嗎我覺得勞動部就是這幾年比較會在這個委員會把跟社會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
445.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
472.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
的溝通當作政策延宕的理由這個我其實是不大能接受或者是應該這麼講就是說最少你們要先有政策出來才有溝通的基礎你什麼都沒有你光是一直說溝通怎麼溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
474.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
474.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法定人數不足,請勞動部長解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
500.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
517.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這就是我的政策我今天原本倒是沒有我今天在講的是整個勞動部這幾年的情況那你倒是自己想要講年金因為時間的關係我就先跟部長講我個人覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
531.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
549.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
單純的把勞保年金改革這麼大的一個重大議題以單一的政府撥補試圖延後處理的時機點這個我是沒有辦法接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
554.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
579.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你了解所以這是不同意見嘛這個我是沒有辦法接受的因為我我不知道為什麼部長可以這麼冠冕堂皇的直接講說你就是撥補也就是說未來你的任期假如是4年 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
581.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
598.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那就是中央政府總預算每一年必須要有兩千億、三千億來挹注勞保年金然後其他的什麼都不用做討論部長保證了絕對不會砍年金沒有人要你砍年金啊沒有人要你砍年金啊我甚至於在昨天就講過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
609.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
625.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們搞不好必須要連通膨都算進去看現在領兩萬塊以下的已經在貧窮線的勞工的晚年怎麼保障啊沒有人要你看啊可是單純的一句撥補就解決了勞工問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
634.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
639.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那民進黨才有這間可以撥補那尊軍公教就直接撥補就好啦那就不敢...委員軍公教過去20年已經公保補5400億了軍公教的...軍公教的雇主是國家軍公教的雇主是國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
661.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
689.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我一直都在不要不要還沒有含那個退伏喔軍工叫退伏喔不是啦現在就是說勞工部長你如果是你如果是這樣的態度就表示你不是很想要跟委員會的委員好好的討論跟相處啦我說我說我們假如說撥補可以解決一切那軍工叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
691.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
710.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
當初就不用改當然部長不從部長就覺得說軍公教跟勞工是有區別的當然有區別最大的區別就是軍公教的僱主是國家那應該改的時候不是應該改嗎不是縱使第二政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
719.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
727.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
也要推動年金改革嗎那為什麼改了軍公教以後勞保就一直停著然後部長講的就是好像撥補是很應該撥補是最不得已的做法部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
742.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
767.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我只是要說明我上任以後我對很多政策我都是直接面對的我也不會去拿所謂的社會共識來拖延不是!你直接面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
768.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
778.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
然後撥補,撥補就是從許民春開始就一直撥補了啊就是一個不負責任的執政黨在做的事情啊把問題想要留到等到民進黨不執政了再來做處理啊要不然要怎麼說?不是這樣嗎?委員您這樣講真的也是也是有道理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
798.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
814.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
不是嗎?對於等到,等到,欸,萬人之間,啊,啊,燙,燙手衫你再丟出去啊。不是,我要明白的告訴你,就是說,這些都是評估過的啦。你除非砍年金,不然我們沒有其他的處理方法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
815.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
841.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
喔就是這樣除了砍年金跟撥補就是這兩種方法另外一種叫延退那延退我們還得看社會有沒有辦法這麼進行對阿所以這個就是說我們的工具很有限啦這個委員這個其實整個是...柏丁你如果是態度這樣啦你的態度是這樣子就難怪勞動部呢就是在在行政體系裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
843.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
847.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
幾乎是不存在的存在者因為你們前後任的部長的態度大概都是一樣的不想去面對問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
865.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
875.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我知道你的想法啦你就是覺得唯一的改革方法就是減少年金所以誰主張要改革誰就是罪人啊你現在講的意思是這樣子啊不是委員這個因為就是廣大勞工朋友的社會安全線的問題不是所以才需要你勞動部啊阿沒有勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
892.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
916.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
阿沒有勞動部存在幹嘛我的意思是說我們砍了年金下去我們還要去動用社會救助那這個我早就講過了您也不能接受嘛對不對現在是是在說你最少要有方案出來你不能就是就是覺得覺得波普我說真的啦我看了波普這麼多年我就覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
918.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
928.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
民進黨就是在等等到自己沒有執政了再換別人來處理啦我們沒有這麼消極啦如果這麼消極就不撥補了啦對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
934.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
945.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以部長的意思是 多補是一件很積極的作業是啊 而且越補 我們的金額在增加耶6年以來從200、221一直增加到1300億這就是我們執政積極的表現啊這是為了...喔 是啊 是啊你要不要把這句話提到讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
956.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
984.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
看能不能形成社會共識委員我想這個應該社會的大部分是會認為這是一個負責任的執政黨他才願意這麼做負責任的執政黨我也說過我已經提案委員我已經提案要求政府要負最終的支付責任這個是政府的決心可是我也支持可是票票改革是另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
985.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
990.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
是兩個層面的問題我也支持我也支持以前馬政府甚至都沒有撥補啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
992.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1012.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以他們失去政權啊對所以我們負責任而且我們擔起來不過普通人如果是這樣的話我們就下一次再談啦因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1021.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1021.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好啦,謝謝委員 |
| gazette.lineno |
1032 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
楊委員曜：（12時6分）謝謝主席，請一下何部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請何部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
楊委員曜：部長，今年勞發署曾經表示要訂一下移工的懷孕指引，這確實是一件很重要的事情，因為指引訂出來以後可以彙整懷孕前後的相關權益，但現在好像還沒提出耶？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，它還在草擬中，準備年底提出，現在有草案了。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
楊委員曜：準備年底提出啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，就是這兩個月裡面要訂出來，現在正在跟社會諮詢溝通中，因為在所謂生育給付這一項上面，其他社會面向的團體有不同意見，有人反對，所以我們還在溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
楊委員曜：部長，我剛剛聽到你們在回復劉建國委員，教股票投資也是工會提出的，然後你做一個指引也不先提出，然後也是要先跟社會對話。從許銘春部長到現在，就這六年，我覺得勞動部之所以很多政策沒有辦法到位、沒有辦法定案，就是因為你們扛著社會共識的大旗，延誤了很多應該要立即落實的政策，勞保年改也是，問你現在這個指引為什麼還沒有，也說要跟社會大眾溝通；問你為什麼教勞工投資股票，也說是工會提出的，你們就直接讓工會來做，我不是說尊重工會的意見不對，我不是這樣的意思，不要誤解，而是你行政機關必須要有自己的政策版本，你自己不先拿出來你的政策版本，請問要怎麼溝通？懂我意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，有在溝通啊！這個移工懷孕指引就是在溝通中，然後遇到問題，目前情況是這樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
楊委員曜：遇到什麼問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
何部長佩珊：請署長說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
楊委員曜：署長回答也可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實這個指引，我們在上個會期，因為當初委員也有關切，我們在5月就已經提出一個版本草案，因為這個版本草案涉及到很多不同的利害關係團體，所以我們正式召開過會議，包含雇主團體、移工團體跟一些社會福利團體等等，還有跨部會，包含衛福部等等，在那個會議當中，對於我們這個草案的內容，事實上我們很希望把移工各個階段的需求，能夠儘量完整的呈現，所以很多的意見大概都有表達出來，所以5月開完會之後，我們大概在兩個月內陸續地就各界的意見再做一些盤點；7月的時候，其實我們有做了第一次的修正，這個修正我們有請各界幫忙再做一些檢視，所以這些草案的內容現在已經在收斂，就是大部分的內容都已經有共識，剩下的就是爭議性比較大的。事實上，現在就是家事移工在生育給付補助方面，大概比較會有不同意見，而我們也把這樣的意見，儘量的再做一些統整。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][1] |
目前我們大概有個初步的想法，就是對於一些比較特殊的情況，在生產之後比如說有一些很特殊的情況，不僅有新生兒要照顧，或是他的身體狀況需要特別照顧，這個時候我們大概希望能夠有一個社會支持的資源來挹注、來補助，所以在經過地方政府評估之後，我們就給予這樣的一個補助。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
楊委員曜：我們當然一定要健全看護移工懷孕期間、孕前孕後的休假，在這個指引裡面，被照顧者在看護移工休假的時候，怎麼獲得照顧，這個也是一個重點。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
蔡署長孟良：是，跟委員報告，因為這裡面就是兼顧移工的權益還有雇主的權益，所以這裡面也包含了，因為這段期間是空窗期，在沒有辦法照顧的時候，我們就是包含現在的喘息跟短照服務…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
楊委員曜：喘息服務每年大概只有使用52天…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
蔡署長孟良：我們現在喘息加短照一年52天、52次。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
楊委員曜：對，移工請假的時間是8個星期，幾乎就是一整年都會在這個孕期裡面，被照顧者的喘息機會全部用完，假如你們真的要做一個比較完整的指引，有沒有可能跟衛福部討論這一類的事情，提高喘息服務的上限？有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
蔡署長孟良：這個我們會跟衛福部再討論一下，我們也希望儘量能夠滿足，就這個部分，我們再跟衛福部溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
楊委員曜：這個才需要討論嘛，我不大相信的是，不管從勞保年金改革到任何的指引，有辦法獲得社會一致的共識，等於說沒有一個政策是凝聚完共識才推出的，那就永遠都推不出政策了，懂我的意思嗎？我覺得勞動部這幾年比較會在這個委員會，把跟社會的溝通當作政策延宕的理由，這個我其實是不大能接受的，或者是應該這麼講，最少你們要先有政策出來，才會有溝通的基礎，但你什麼都沒有，光是一直說溝通，請問要怎麼溝通？部長你想要說就給你說啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
何部長佩珊：如果是勞保年改，我的政策已經很明確，就是撥補。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
楊委員曜：勞保年改你已經很明確，這是什麼意思？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
何部長佩珊：我的政策很明確了。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
楊委員曜：就是撥補？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
何部長佩珊：對啊！我的政策就是我們撥補就是改革，我已經講過很多遍了，而且我不砍年金，這就是我的政策。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
楊委員曜：我今天在講的是整個勞動部這幾年的情況，你倒是自己想要講年金。好，因為時間的關係，我就先跟部長講，我個人覺得單純的把勞保年金改革這麼重大的議題，以單一的政府撥補，試圖延後處理的時機點，這個我是沒有辦法接受的。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
何部長佩珊：了解，所以這就是不同意見，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
楊委員曜：這個我是沒有辦法接受的，因為我不知道為什麼部長可以這麼冠冕堂皇直接說你就是撥補，也就是說，未來你的任期假如是4年，那就是中央政府總預算每一年必須要有2,000億、3,000億來挹注勞保年金，然後其他的什麼都不用做討論，部長保證了，絕對不會砍年金，沒有人要你砍年金啊！我甚至在昨天就講過了，我們搞不好連通膨也都必須算進去，現在領兩萬塊以下，已經在貧窮線的勞工的晚年要怎麼保障啊？沒有人要你砍啊！可是單純一句撥補就解決了勞工問題，民進黨如果這麼會執政，到時用撥補來處理，那時候軍公教直接撥補就好了，哪會搞到…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，軍公教過去20年公保已經補5,400億了，一直都在補、一直都在補。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
楊委員曜：軍公教的雇主是國家啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，一直都在補，還沒有含軍公教退撫喔！勞工…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
楊委員曜：部長如果是用這樣的態度，就表示你不是很想要跟委員會的委員好好的討論跟相處，我就說了，假如撥補可以解決一切，那軍公教當初就不用改啊！當然部長就覺得軍公教跟勞工是有區別的，當然有區別啊，最大的區別就是軍公教的雇主是國家，而且應該改的時候，不就是應該改嗎？不是縱使丟了政權，也要推動年金改革嗎？為什麼改了軍公教以後勞保就一直停著，然後部長講的好像撥補是很應該的，撥補是最不得已的作法啊！部長，我也不知道，今天本來是在討論移工懷孕的問題，結果你提年金改革要做什麼！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我只是要說明我上任以後對於很多政策，我都是直接面對的，我也不會去拿所謂的社會共識來拖延。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
楊委員曜：不是，你說會直接面對，然後撥補，而撥補從許銘春開始就一直撥補了啊！就是一個不負責任的執政黨在做的事情啊！想把問題留到等民進黨不執政了再來做處理啊！要不然要怎麼說？不是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員您這樣講真的也是…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
楊委員曜：也是很有道理啊！不是嗎？就是等到換人執政，把燙手山芋再丟出去啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我要明白的告訴你，這些都是評估過的，除非砍年金，不然我們沒有其他的處理方法，就是這樣。就是砍年金跟撥補這兩種方法，另外一種叫延退，那延退我們還得看社會有沒有辦法這麼進行。所以就是我們的工具很有限，委員，這個其實…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
楊委員曜：部長，如果你的態度是這樣子，就難怪勞動部在行政體系裡面幾乎是不存在的存在者，因為你們前後任部長的態度大概都是一樣，不想去面對問題。我知道你的想法，你覺得唯一的改革方法就是減少年金，所以誰主張要改革誰就是罪人啦！你現在講的意思是這樣子啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，這個因為是廣大勞工朋友的社會安全線問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
楊委員曜：不是，所以才需要你勞動部啊！不然咧？不然勞動部存在幹嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
何部長佩珊：我的意思是，我們砍了年金下去之後，我們還要動用社會救助。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
楊委員曜：這個我早就講過了。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
何部長佩珊：您也不能接受嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
楊委員曜：現在就是至少你要有方案出來，你不能就是用撥補，我說真的啦，我看了撥補這麼多年，我覺得民進黨就是在等，等到自己不執政了再換別人來處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
何部長佩珊：我們沒有這麼消極啦，如果這麼消極就不撥補了啦！對不對。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
楊委員曜：所以部長的意思是撥補是一件很積極的作為？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
何部長佩珊：是啊！而且我們的金額在增加耶，6年以來從220億一直增加到1,300億，這就是我們執政積極的表現。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
楊委員曜：喔，是啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
何部長佩珊：是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
楊委員曜：你要不要把這句話提出來，看能不能形成社會共識？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
何部長佩珊：我想社會大眾會認為這是一個負責任的執政黨才願意這麼做。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
楊委員曜：負責任的執政黨，我也說過我已經提案，我已經提案要求政府要負最終的支付責任，這個是政府的決心。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，我也支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
楊委員曜：可是跟要不要改革是另外兩個層面的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
何部長佩珊：我也支持。委員，以前馬政府甚至都沒有撥補，是不是？我們要這樣看。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
楊委員曜：所以他們失去政權了。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，所以我們負責任，而且我們擔起來。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
楊委員曜：部長如果是這樣的態度，我們就下一次再談。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
何部長佩珊：沒關係，我隨時跟您討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
楊委員曜：因為召委已經站起來很多次了。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
主席：我要一視同仁要，不然到時候有人說楊曜委員講那麼久，我都沒有站起來。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
楊委員曜：沒關係，反正還有很多機會。不過我最後一句話，我並不覺得撥補是有擔當的執政黨應該要拿出來對社會大眾做宣傳的一個政績。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
何部長佩珊：好啦，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
主席：謝謝楊曜委員發言。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][1] |
接下請鍾佳濱委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
430 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-26-4 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
363 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-17 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138601 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138601_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系
統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪
資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138601_00006 |
| IVOD_ID |
155746 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155746 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-4 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-17T12:06:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-17T12:23:55+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |