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| 委員名稱 |
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主席請人事長好 請人事長那請會長工作人員今天好像大家總召 總召請幫委員稍微注意一下這個人事長你了不了解整個國家運作的體制最重要的就是有這麼多廣大的公務人員讓整個機器能夠轉動能夠讓所有 |
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40.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.91 |
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公務員是非常非常重要的國家的骨幹本期先請教一下文竿制度的建立非常不容易公務員是效忠人民效忠國家 |
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56.539 |
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是不是一定是要效忠人民跟國家都要效忠謝謝所以啊這個本期看到這兩天有個新聞蠻熱鬧的就是以後的將領未來啊都要到總統府去啊李政站好跟賴清德總統高呼總統好要宣誓效忠元首這個而且都不能坐著一定要站著 |
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87.32 |
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113.918 |
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對這個新聞你有什麼看法我沒有在現場我們都不在現場但我們都有看到這個新聞我不曉得在現場看到新聞那是不一樣的事沒有關係那如果新聞屬實的話是怎麼樣我覺得因為沒有在現場我就不方便做根本所以有的時候本席在這裡特別請教你這個問題也知道你會這樣回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
116.751 |
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137.497 |
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保官要命文官體制沒有這麼重要但是保官要命所以人事長我想請教一下我們這麼多的公務員經過國家考試層層的檢核還有年資每一年都要考核是加等還是一等 |
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161.491 |
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一步一腳印慢慢慢慢的才得到晉升的機會但是現在我們感覺這國家整個文官體制的趨勢已經不再正向的發展已經不斷的傾斜可能未來到底是要效忠元首效忠政黨 |
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181.549 |
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還是效忠國家效忠人民請問一下這個109年有推動過一個約聘僱人員聘約人員這個人事條例草案這個當了三年的約聘僱人員幾乎就有相關的這些職稱職務固然109年有推過 |
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186.673 |
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205.698 |
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有沒有成功我報告委員這個是全序部他在草擬的本來有在草擬後來就是大家意見還沒有非常一致所以整個計劃也非常客氣喔意見沒有一致站在人總的立場支持這樣的案子 |
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206.924 |
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206.944 |
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市長 |
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223.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
250.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以說不需要考試進來的都是在比較高階的部分政務派任的部分那個已經學有專精有專長我們國家目前是有這個制度本來就在推行所以有政務次長的派任甚至政務部長的派任以及行政院長的派任這都是國家的用人權那我們都尊重但是基層的聘約人員吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
252.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
256.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
可以3年 認滿3年就有所謂的職稱職務這個人事長 如果你覺得這樣也是合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
279.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
業聘雇人員目前的規定是一年一聘那三年以後轉身分我倒是覺得這個大家可能沒有辦法接受啦好 謝謝啊這個人事長終於講一句腰桿比較挺直的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
284.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
313.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本期在這裡希望我們的口譯歌不要再現一天到晚都有口譯歌當時109年在推動這個品月人員人事條例就是要把所有的這些讓我們的國家所有的這些首長變成慣老闆我要用誰就用誰連基層的整個骨幹的體制都要來動搖所以以後只要奉承上意 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
314.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
315.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
354.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們經公教大藝審議委員會基本上我們參議的大概會中央機關還有地方機關還有一些專家協者進來我們只是提整個條新的一個參考讓行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
354.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
355.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
勞工的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
378.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我想我們最低工資審議委員會都有納入基層的勞工的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
405.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
418.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
對於軍公教員工待遇審議委員會目前一直都沒有繼承員工的這些代表是不是我們可以把他納入讓未來的考量能夠更周延更完整可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
419.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
439.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我非常支持總召會的想法事實上我們最近就是在研擬條帶的法制化這裏面有納入基層的公跟教法制化是非常的重要為了調新法制化是非常的重要國家的骨幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
472.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這些軍公教人員撐起整個國家的所有的他的組織他的制度他的施行服務全國的鄉親未來這個整體的薪資調整本席建議以民生物價指數作為最主要的參考指標把它法制化以後我想未來條件就不再是一個恩給 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
476.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
499.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
執政者想要做就做,不想做就不做。這樣子既不公平也不公開,也沒有透明,都會黑箱。什麼時間到了,什麼正投稿,這個四年一任選舉到了,又開始開支票加薪等等。這個都不是國家之福,不管誰執政都是一樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
500.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
529.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以本席認為應該要把它法制化以後時候到了就是調該調整就調整不要是變成一個大家可能講這個恩給制度啊這個黃恩浩蕩啊現在要調整了這個都是不應該的我想這個部分請這個人事長做一個參考另外當然本席會追蹤啦接下來就是這個六都跟非六都只等不同的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
530.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
558.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這一造成所有這些非六都的地方要如何留才如何留住人才啊固然有一個國家考試有一個綁六年啊還有綁三年或是六年但是呢在偏鄉地區啊往往就是啊我們培養了很多的公務員在這裡他學會了也懂了時間到了就走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
558.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
559.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
591.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
598.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
請問同職不同等 同工不同從 這樣子可以為偏鄉留住人才嗎 請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
599.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
623.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我非常認同總召的看法事實上我們過去這幾年有跟情緒部組成工作圈我們在解決這個問題或許也不如總召想的一次把所有的都改可是我們是採一個區段一個區段像以前的縣政府的科長是八指等後來我們就調為八到九 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
652.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
讓他可以去參加檢任生人考讓他有機會升到副處長還有處長因為我覺得之前的設計有一些改善我們就是採區塊區塊來那剛才總召所提的六都跟會六都的這些職等事實上我們也是有納在工作圈裡面在討論有大概建議盡量讓地方的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
653.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
682.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
副主官地方政府一級單位這些副主官能夠跨官等提早受訓這樣的話也為地方培育更多儲備的人才但是呢本席知道你從八到九職等但是呢這個還是不夠明確還是要讓地方的這些留在偏鄉的這些人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
684.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
684.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
695.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
696.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
謝謝總召 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:21:07 - 10:33:09 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
543 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
傅委員崐萁：（10時21分）主席，請人事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，請人事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][1] |
請會場工作人員幫委員注意一下水杯。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
傅委員崐萁：人事長，你了不了解整個國家運作的體制，最重要的就是有這麼多廣大公務人員讓整個機器能夠轉動，能夠讓我們國家所有政策確實組織起來，並且執行？公務人員是非常非常重要的國家骨幹。本席先請教一下，文官制度的建立非常不容易，公務人員是效忠人民、效忠國家，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：一定是要效忠人民跟國家，都要效忠。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
傅委員崐萁：謝謝。本席看到這兩天有個新聞滿熱鬧的，以後的將領未來都要到總統府去立正站好，跟賴清德總統高呼總統好，要宣誓效忠元首，而且都不能坐著，一定要站著，對這個新聞你有什麼看法？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：我沒有在現場…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
傅委員崐萁：我們都不在現場，但我們都有看到這個新聞，我不曉得人事長…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：在現場跟看到新聞是不一樣的事。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，如果新聞屬實的話是怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得因為沒有在現場，我就不方便做comment。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡特別請教你這個問題，也知道你會這樣回答，你這個回答就是保官要命，文官體制沒有這麼重要，但是保官要命。人事長，我想請教一下，我們這麼多公務員經過國家考試，層層檢核，還有年資，每一年都要考核，是甲等，還是乙等，一步一腳印，慢慢、慢慢的才得到晉升的機會。但是現在我們感覺國家整個文官體制的趨勢已經不再正向發展，已經不斷在傾斜，未來到底是要效忠元首、效忠政黨，還是效忠國家、效忠人民？請問一下，109年有推動過一個有關約聘僱人員的聘約人員人事條例草案，當了3年的約聘僱人員，以後就有相關的職稱、職務，固然109年有推過，有沒有成功？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，這個是銓敘部本來有在草擬的，後來大家意見還沒有非常一致，所以整個計畫…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
傅委員崐萁：你也非常客氣，意見沒有一致，站在人總的立場，支不支持這樣的案子？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得只要能讓國家文官長治久安，我們基本上都支持，大家也知道，整個文官進用本來就有考試進用，因為我們的人才要很多元，不見得都要考試進來。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
傅委員崐萁：人事長，所以不需要考試進來的都是在比較高階的部分，屬於政務派任的部分，那個已經學有專精、有專長，我們國家目前是有這個制度，本來就在推行，所以有政務次長的派任，甚至政務部長的派任以及行政院長的派任，這都是國家的用人權，我們都尊重，但是基層的聘約人員可以任滿3年就有所謂的職稱、職務，人事長，你覺得這樣也是合理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：約聘僱人員目前的規定還是一年一聘，但3年以後轉身分，我倒是覺得大家可能沒有辦法接受啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。人事長終於講一句腰桿比較挺直的話，本席在這裡希望我們的口譯哥不要再現，一天到晚都有口譯哥，當時109年在推動聘約人員人事條例，就是要讓我們國家所有首長變成慣老闆，我要用誰就用誰，連基層整個骨幹的體制都要動搖，所以以後只要奉承上意就可以不需要經過國家考試，最後會把我們整個國家的制度破壞掉，所以我想請人事長對這個部分一定要堅持。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][1] |
本席再請教一下，我們的最低工資審議委員會跟軍公教員工待遇審議委員會基本上有多大的不同？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：軍公教待遇審議委員會參與的大概是中央機關，還有地方機關，還有一些專家、學者進來，我們只是提調薪的參考給行政院，因為行政院本身要去考慮到物價指數的問題、經濟成長力的問題，還有GDP的問題、還有民間薪資的range，最重要一點還有國家財政affordable的問題，會考慮這五大因素再去調。至於勞工的部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
傅委員崐萁：軍公教。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：我現在講的就是軍公教的部分。勞工的部分基本上是勞動部…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
傅委員崐萁：基本工資。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：針對基本工資，每一年都會找一些學者專家來，好像在裡面會討論要調的，應該在那個場域就會確定了吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
傅委員崐萁：人事長，本席是不是跟你商量一下？我想我們的最低工資審議委員會都有納入基層的勞工代表，對於軍公教員工待遇審議委員會，目前一直都沒有基層員工的代表，所以我們是不是可以把他們納入，讓未來的考量能夠更周延、更完整？可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：我非常支持總召的想法，事實上，我們最近就是在研擬調待的法制化，這裡面有納入基層的工跟教…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
傅委員崐萁：法制化是非常的重要，為了調薪，法制化是非常的重要。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：有，要納進來。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
傅委員崐萁：國家的骨幹──這些軍公教人員撐起整個國家所有的組織、它的制度、它的施行，並且服務全國的鄉親，未來整體的薪資調整，本席建議以民生物價指數作為最主要的參考指標，把它法制化以後，我想未來調薪就不再是一個恩給，執政者想要做就做，不想做就不做，這樣子既不公平也不公開，也沒有透明，淪為黑箱，什麼時間到了、什麼「症頭」到了，4年一任選舉到了就開支票、加薪等等，這個都不是國家之福，不管誰執政都是一樣，所以本席認為應該要把它法制化，以後時候到了就是調，該調整就調整，不要變成大家講的好像是一個恩給制度，哇！皇恩浩蕩，現在要調整了！這個都是不應該的，我想這個部分請人事長做一個參考，當然本席也會追蹤。接下來就是六都跟非六都職等不同的問題，這已經造成所有非六都的地方要如何留才的問題，如何留住人才固然國家考試有一個綁三年或六年的規定，但是在偏鄉地區，往往就是我們培養了很多的公務員，他學會了，但時間到了就走了，都要往六都走，為什麼？在基層最重要的骨幹就是科長級，縣市政府為科長級，鄉鎮叫課長，這些都是執行地方自治最重要的公職人員，但是現在因為職等不同，請問人事長，同職不同等，同工不同酬，這樣子可以為偏鄉留住人才嗎？請回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蘇人事長俊榮：我非常認同總召的看法，事實上，我們過去這幾年也有跟銓敘部組成工作圈，在解決這個問題，或許不如總召想的，可以一次把所有的都改過來，我們是採一個區段、一個區段，像以前縣政府的科長是八職等，後來我們就調為八到九職等，讓他可以去參加簡任升等考，讓他有機會升到副處長還有處長，因為我覺得之前的設計有一些改善，我們就是採區塊、區塊來。剛才總召所提的六都跟非六都的這些職等，事實上，我們也有納入工作圈裡在討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
傅委員崐萁：建議儘量讓地方政府一級單位這些副主官能夠跨官等提早受訓，這樣的話，也可以為地方培育更多儲備人才，本席知道你調整為八到九職等，但是這還不夠明確，還是要讓願意留在偏鄉的這些人才能夠知道他未來有發展的潛力，不然的話，真的是同工不同酬、同職不同等，這樣會造成地方越來越落後，而六都越來越發展，這是一個國家要整體均衡發展一個非常重要的環節，好不好？請人事長提出來。你看鍾佳濱召委也站起來了，也表示他同意，屏東縣也是人才外流的地方，我們大家一起努力，好不好？謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
主席：謝謝總召，謝謝人事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][1] |
接下來請翁委員曉玲質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
334 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-36-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
277 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-09-30 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137801 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1137801_00010 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137801_00011 |
| IVOD_ID |
154962 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154962 |
| 日期 |
2024-09-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-2 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-09-30T10:21:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-09-30T10:33:09+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |