| IVOD_ID |
154926 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154926 |
| 日期 |
2024-09-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期第2次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第2次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-09-27T16:15:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-09-27T16:45:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| 委員名稱 |
呂玉玲 |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7581ac2c059480527ee3b523bd951fc4b4afc9d995ccd4a2f8161fa3a4357a4d21a471a2d4db75405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
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請呂玉玲委員質詢麻煩請卓院長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.668 |
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53.016 |
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是 呂玉玲好想請問你一下剛剛日本的自民黨他的新總裁當選人這個石破茂你認識不認識我們在媒體上都看過很多次看過 那你認識嗎近距離沒有認識近距離沒有認識那請教對台日的關係有沒有影響那你有什麼期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.494 |
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他可能就是下屆的新首相我覺得民主夥伴國家這個民主成熟到一定程度之後對國家的國策的發展他一定有長遠的一個觀察跟制定那任何一個經選舉出來的國家領導人我們除了給予祝福之外我們當然希望能夠持續的深化加深台日雙方之間的關係我也認為在現在的民主夥伴國家的這種產業鏈以及共同防禦地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
82.495 |
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簡單的幾句那你是講哪一種台語廣告用的廣告詞廣告詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
109.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
109.9 |
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我最熟悉的台語阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
138.401 |
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159.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
臺語有很多種,在臺灣通行的像閩南語、客家語、客語還有原住民語都叫做臺語,對不對?都叫做國家語言臺灣的國家語言嘛,就是臺語嘛所以臺語包含的,在臺灣的方言,很多種都叫臺語,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
160.963 |
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186.475 |
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臺語包括很多我們自然使用所用的語言包括原住民語包括客語包括我們的手語都是我們的國家語言國家語言在臺灣就叫臺語院長我們都是臺灣人臺灣的方言臺灣的臺語有這麼多種我們不能夠忽視其他的族群所以不能說臺語就是獨尊於閩南語這樣對其他的族群是非常不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
186.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
204.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以我一直說這是我們的國家語言我們也會設立國家語言的研究發展中心所以通通都可以叫台語 台灣的閩南語 台灣的客家語 台灣的原住民語 是不是我還是希望說通通叫做國家語言是 我知道院長在閃躲 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
206.519 |
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229.124 |
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其實我剛剛一直強調我們都是臺灣人我們的先祖在臺灣幾十年的打拼耕耘才奠定下來的基礎所以每一個族群對臺灣都有貢獻都有付出我們應該要公平的對待更何況應該要海納百川這才是有公平對每一個族群的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
229.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
255.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以本席今天會這樣子問就是因為現在一直在講說臺語是屬於什麼語言臺語就是臺灣通行的語就叫做臺語所以我們看到這個文化部特別有發文到各縣市去要他們去修正臺語就是閩南語閩南語就是臺語院長你支持你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
255.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
277.262 |
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你的態度又是怎麼樣這種講法也是一種自然的講法啦現在所謂閩南語台語大家也是常常把它混在一起講這個也沒有對錯問題就是它習慣性的用語我就在這裡除了尊重大家對自己所有母語的保存跟使用之外這種自然的講法大家也應該比較包容啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
278.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
282.832 |
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我並不覺得這怎麼不覺得可是你不能獨尊阿現在是台語獨尊是閩南語耶我們到客家地區的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
307.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
332.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
文化部都發魂到各縣市去了因為我們很多客家的鄉親通通群起抗議我不曉得劉院長都沒有聽到這些聲音嗎包括我們的文化部長李部長都上來了部長你也是客家人我知道你有很多的客家的戲劇都是你編排的你也寫了很多客家的童話包括我晚上在我地方指風車 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
334.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
352.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
都要表演這個客家文化的劇本都是從你的童話故事改變過來的所以本期在這邊要強烈的要求我們應該要更正修正為臺語的閩南語臺灣的閩南語臺灣的客語臺灣的原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
357.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
372.689 |
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要海報百川啊 要有廣大的含義啊 台語的內涵裡面是廣大的這包含著客語 閩南語跟原住民語 跟手語都包括進去我們不能矮化自己啊 不能讓語言的疆域變小了 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
373.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
401.483 |
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尤其是你如果講閩南語的話他來自哪裡他來自福建省張州泉州過來尤其是部長你的父母也是從福建的客家過來的嘛這都是可以一起的去發展我們的語言國家語言要一起公平的發展這是本席要強調的所以我請教院長部長你們可不可以做這個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
402.578 |
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421.19 |
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我可不可以回答一下其實當初會有這個語言的制定是因為臺灣有非常多的語言漸漸消失了比如說我們剛才講臺語啊客家語啊原住民語或者手語漸漸消失我們才會制定這個語言法那其實兩年前我們制定的所謂臺語是臺灣臺語 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
424.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
425.375 |
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台灣的台語那就是福建的台語囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
440.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
444.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我最近去日本看到他們有一本書寫臺灣華語臺灣華語什麼意思呢就是語言會透過一段歷史以後還有演變那臺灣華語就是經過歷史演變之後隔海 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
458.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
479.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
很長一段時間這個語言已經跟中國大陸的那個語言不太一樣他所寫的台灣華語其實大概就是這個意思啦所以我信的是對各個族群在台灣共進的各個族群你都要公平對待尤其台灣講的各個方言都是他的魔語所以我們要給你尊重要公平對待所以你應該要做個修正好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
480.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
480.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
請客委會主委備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
495.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
521.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為國家的語言啊 很多的 臺灣人使用的很多的方言都是我們國家語言發展法那種界定的國家語言所以都應該稱作臺語啦所以谷主委我剛剛已經講了很多了你是客委會的主委客家的鄉親很氣憤的就是你靜悄悄的一句幫客家人說話都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
540.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
跟委員報告其實我們是尊重每個族群的自稱跟他稱你代表著客家委員會的初委是 所以我們我們全國客家人有五六百人將近六百萬人我們是第二大族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
541.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
544.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你沒有一句話嗎我在講客家你跟我發言講客家是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
569.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
572.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你自己不尊重自己人家怎麼會尊重你呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
581.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
600.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我剛提到了客家在稱閩南的族群一般是講hollo我們尊重閩南尊重閩南的族群我們都尊重我現在是要公平對待我們對於自稱就是稱我們的語言是客語 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
600.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
604.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主委你不要在這邊造口令了﹖對你非常的失望 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
616.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
634.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對你非常的失望我在這邊要重申的就是說我們臺語獨尊為閩南語是做法是抹殺了所有祖先在這塊土地的奴隸也扼殺了臺灣客語甚至於我們的客家文化的一個發展大家都說所以我希望院長部長主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
641.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
643.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
接下來我想請問的就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
669.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
684.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
農科三企業到現在還慶悄悄的尤其臺灣的半導體產業在國際間都佔有這個非常舉足輕重的角色尤其是我們工研業有統計了2023年臺灣半導體的產值將近有新臺幣的4兆3428億元今年有可能就會達到5兆的這個大關卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
693.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
702.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
新竹科學園區為中心的桃竹苗地區就憑著成熟的半導體產業鏈成為台灣科技的廊道所以賴慶德總統特別在這個基礎上也提出了桃竹苗大細果這個計畫在2月22號行政院也通過了預計在這個4年會突破6兆的產值增加14萬個工作機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
737.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那既然是針對這個桃竹苗這個半導體的這個整個產業的這個實力能夠更促進我們區域的這個發展那其中龍潭的龍科三期就是涵蓋在桃竹苗的大細股這計畫裡面2022年的時候這個蘇貞昌院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
742.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
768.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他就宣布要啟動榮科三期當時沒有跟地主溝通這個申請的範圍造成了很多的民怨後來呢本席跟這個科管局跟我們的桃園市政府溝通之後的話取得了共識大概要發展的面積有90公頃已經有共識了但是就缺少了兩次的這個公聽會上個會期我本席也問過我們的院長院長說大概在3月4月會舉辦這兩次的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
770.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
786.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
到現在要10月了還沒有為什麼卡關卡關的原因在哪裡榮科山崎因為地方上對於他園區的範圍還在做一個討論那我們如何跟地方加強溝通尤其是跟那個桃竹渺大溪谷這個怎麼樣融進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
788.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
811.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個部分我想國科會是有進度的我們請國科會來做說明我們現在竹科管理局是積極在協助桃園市政府跟居民在溝通那現在桃園市政府還有一些細節必須要解決沒有 就等兩次的公聽會就等你的公聽會全部溝通共識協調好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
813.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
839.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
還沒有完全解決哪個部分哪一個部分就是國小的部分國小圈國小的部分也在上個會期業長你承諾我了叫德隆國小嘛德隆國小原來你們是要屬於北圈北圈在這個永光路這邊跟一個祥安國小是重疊的校區所以我們建議不要重疊校區應該讓在地4個里的學生都可以在這邊就讀所以本席當場就建議囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
840.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
842.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這部分我們科學人氣管理局沒有意見只要市政府協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
864.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
877.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
市政府確定還是客管局確定當然是市政府因為這個跟居民溝通那就請問年底以前可不可以開這兩場公聽會只要市政府同意的話我們一定協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
882.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
895.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
公聽會是要徵收土地我們116年就要土地的徵收跟所有工程的進度116年就要執行了你到現在還沒有公聽會耶可不可以承諾我年底前辦公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
897.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
904.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
國科會是跟桃園市政府之間的溝通還要再加強這個如果能夠請委員也幫忙所以我說沒有問題現在是看我們的國科會開館局年底前辦兩場 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
925.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
943.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
因為以前一一二年去年就已經辦兩場了這是沒有共識的現在有共識的辦兩場是很快的已經取得共識了我報告已經取得共識了就是共識才等啊從三四月等到七八月也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
945.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
968.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
只有這麼難嗎還是因為陶珠苗大溪谷計劃我們國發會還沒有送計劃到行政院去核准所以你們要等著這個政績歸納到大溪谷計劃嗎因為這個而延宕去等大溪谷計劃嗎如果沒有就年底辦公聽會啊我們是朝這個方向在走就是陶珠苗大溪谷那就年底前公聽會來舉辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
970.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
993.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
主要是市政府沒問題已經有共識條件是這樣市政府沒問題我們就沒問題那就是年底辦兩場接下來我想請問的就是在我們桃園市這個桃科已經有送計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
996.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1012.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
二度被經濟部給撤回處分所以現在經濟部也撤回了我們台灣市政府也二度撤回了這個處分那現在產業也準備要提這個訴願那我不曉得院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1014.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1031.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
還是我們的環境部長還是我們的次長你們針對這件事情你們了解嗎先請教院長你知道這整個過程嗎為什麼有這個過程最新的發展是今天環境部有對於SRF的這個一些重要的要更嚴苛的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1033.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1033.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1033.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1033.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1058.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1086.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
報告委員現在的程序是經濟部撤銷原來市政府否決他入園的處分回到原點市政府要重新審核市政府又再度否准他進入入園沒有再度否准處分不行入園否決掉了是那麼現在他們又提起訴願那訴願會的進行是程序面的問題在實質面我們經濟部還是鼓勵廠商遵守最嚴格的標準跟桃園市政府好好討論來 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1088.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1113.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以 院長我要提醒跟部長員二度被桃園市政府撤銷這個處分現在要問的就是前因是因為經濟部的推薦護航開後門一定要讓這個三家廠商進來桃科那現在桃園市政府跟人民站在一起要不要犧牲了人民的健康所以二度處分撤銷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1115.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1133.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
彭部長你要更嚴苛的標準你去更嚴苛標準這是符合標準的嚴苛是應該的但是我們並不要讓他入園啦我扑到他入園是不用到嚴苛的標準去那現在已經有這樣子了現在我看到市政府已經撤銷了那現在經濟部的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1135.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1135.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
5月13號 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1150.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1168.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
美國的在台協會拜訪了前經濟部長王美華 針對這件事情非常的關切本席也特別去查了一下 這三家廠商當中 台灣的立方能源是美國基礎建設投資的基金是百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1169.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1171.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
你們是不是受到美國的壓力負力循環經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1184.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1188.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
地方政府有權嗎?你尊重地方政府嗎?尊重為什麼撤銷他的儲備?哪裡不一樣?因為經濟部也撤回了他自己的推薦書啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1204.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1231.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
事實上他不要承擔責任啊他悄悄的他收回他的推薦書耶依照術院會的決定當時的入園標準的規定就是由地方政府來核定跟經濟部有沒有推薦期好那地方政府就不要讓他入園了嘛剛剛講的啊那你要不要尊重地方地方審核過了不要啊所以院長過程我相信你前面應該都有去了解了那後面的結果我也告訴你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1232.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1258.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我不希望二賭還有三賭這個惡性循環要叫我們所有關於的鄉親用健康來付代價嗎剛剛次長講得清楚我們尊重地方政府但是民間的業者也有他提起他溯源來了所以我請教他的溯源來了你是要跟民意跟我們桃園鄉親站在一起還是跟業者站在一起你們是不是說到美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1259.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1268.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
在台協會的壓力沒有沒有 絕對沒有訴願的程序就讓他用訴願委員會的專業去處理地方政府撤銷了那你繼續不要再撤銷嗎但是也不能剝奪訴願的權利就讓他訴願委員會專業去處理所以他的訴願 你們決定怎麼回 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1275.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1276.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我強調不要二度撤回又來三度撤回請你們聽聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1302.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1319.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
民意聽聽我們地方鄉親的聲音不要讓我們對這個有汙染的這個發電廠要負擔著這個身體的健康好不好當初應該是為了要處理垃圾的問題想到這個方式那大家能不能接受我們現在用一種比較客觀的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1323.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1325.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
循環經濟循環經濟不能讓桃園一個人負擔啊不能讓桃園負擔啊 是不是桃園大部屋各式各樣的我們的整個基礎建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1342.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1362.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
是不是所以請你跟民意站在一起彭部長對於垃圾的處理是積極而用心的報告委員其實桃園有非常多露天裸露的垃圾山我們也積極在解決那SRF呢也建議大家可以經由可以看我們中午的記者會我們有把它證明也把它釐清那我也報告委員我上前兩個禮拜在德國 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1363.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1363.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
接下來下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1392.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1413.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員長我們一直在講電價的問題台電我們已經在增資在補償裡面已經到5000億了現在我們的電價審議委員會也一定要在9月底就要來開了今天沒有開禮拜一也要開了那我特別去了解這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1417.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1441.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
電價審議委員會有17位委員那代表我們政府的有8席那代表工商跟消費者的有3席有6席是專家學者所以政府的態度就是關鍵工商界當然不願意漲價嘛所以3席當然是反對的所以政府態度是怎麼樣如果這8席跟我們工商消費者站在一起的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1442.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1468.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
沈殷熙對這個六席你說這審議委員會的結果會是什麼呢所以關鍵在行政院所謂院長你的指示了沒有這外部委員已經明顯超過政府內部的委員了所以應該是讓他們去討論我剛剛告訴你了啊六席專家而已啊我說外部委員已經超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1469.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1491.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
政府內部的委員是17席嗎 有錯嗎沒有錯啊 17席沒錯啊代表政府也是8席嘛工商跟消費者3席啊 6席是專家學者啊所以政府的態度是非常關鍵的如果政府要漲價就漲價了所以政府的態度啊你不要不承擔漲價的問題而推給電價審議委員會 甩鍋讓他們去背 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1496.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1510.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個制度的結果我們設立所以我說政府的代表巴西你們巴西是什麼態度嗎就是在討論當中會議進行當中他們去討論態度那我之前在這個地方我也說過民生用電的穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1513.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1515.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們知道臺電也提出來了臺電的員工真的很辛苦欸斤斤計較又風吹日曬的但是決策者在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1542.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1562.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
決策扯在上面啊你們說：電價要漲就漲也不告訴我們原因啊為什麼要漲國際原物料上漲就跟著漲那為什麼國際原料會上漲呢因為我們火力發電占了八成為基載的主要的那個發電所以這就是不是我們的能源政策有問題能源的配比有問題為什麼不去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1568.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1574.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
委員 剛剛我們談到 那我們的發電成本可以降低科學園區 多少的國際大廠來台灣都是要用綠電這個是國際的趨勢我們如果沒有權力的發展綠電我們跟這個世界潮流是接不上的所以我們的能源政策沒有問題那其中一大半是用燃氣發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1595.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1621.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對阿所以我說有替代能源的配比我們要不要來開個國事論壇一下共同討論解決台灣能源的未來的問題制裁是正式不要造成這個民怨一直都沒有討論捏我們一直喊台電受不了了台電也提出來了阿他不找民生長工業用電14%你支持嗎院長支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1623.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1623.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個機制我還是要尊重阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1642.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1644.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
臺電也提出他的建議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1662.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1665.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
臺電也是基於他的專業分析跟財務的分析去做了幾項內容那這個就要交到電價審議委員會去討論了臺電 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1679.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1698.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
台電到現在只是有一些分析分析了 你知道他的分析嗎最苦的就是台電啦你的能源政策不改嘛他只能夠照單全收啦所以我們要幫台電既能做電網的安全也能照顧民生 也能反映成本強振電網已經喊了10年我們的預算超過5000億給他不是補吹他的虧損喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1706.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1715.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
政府能做的就是把他過去負擔的政策補助的任務移轉到目的事業集團機關 減輕他政策的負擔人民受不了了 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1727.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1744.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我們這是最大的改變就是讓他很多的政策的承擔補貼的政策回到各目的世界主管機關減輕他的財務的壓力他希望能夠這樣 郭部長講過他希望兩年內能夠看到他往財務健全的方向走 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1746.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1750.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以在這邊 院長你針對現在我們的電價的問題你有沒有要對民眾說的因為民眾已經受不了了 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1774.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1795.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我會跟民眾一起節約用電那麼對電價的節約用電又是口號了可以不開冷氣嗎如果把節約用電口號的話長電費就是萬物皆漲物價高漲我們做了很多節約用電報告我們明年度對於家電的補助希望能夠更換成高效率的家電補助我們又投出了相當的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1799.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1804.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
指出很多了根本沒有辦法治本所以請院長正視這個民怨好不好謝謝 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:15:15 - 16:45:23 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢） |
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478 |
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呂委員玉玲：（16時15分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。 |
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主席：請卓院長備詢。 |
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卓院長榮泰：呂委員好！ |
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呂委員玉玲：院長，想請問你一下，日本自民黨的新總裁當選人─石破茂，你認識不認識？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們在媒體上都看過很多次。 |
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呂委員玉玲：看過，你認識嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：近距離，沒有認識。 |
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呂委員玉玲：近距離，沒有認識。請教，對臺日的關係有沒有影響？你有什麼期待？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我覺得…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
呂委員玉玲：他可能就是下屆的新首相。 |
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卓院長榮泰：是，我覺得民主夥伴國家的民主成熟到一定的程度之後，對國家國策的發展，它一定有長遠的觀察及制定，任何一個經選舉出來的國家領導人，除了給予祝福之外，我們當然希望能夠持續地深化、加深臺日雙方之間的關係。我也認為，在現在民主夥伴國家這種產業鏈，以及共同防禦地方和平穩定的這個狀況底下，我們一定有能力，也有辦法，更需要去增加雙方的關係。 |
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呂委員玉玲：是，只要支持臺灣的盟友，我們都希望能夠共存共榮。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
呂委員玉玲：好。接下來本席想請教一下，院長，你會講台語嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
卓院長榮泰：簡單的幾句。 |
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呂委員玉玲：你是講哪一種台語？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
卓院長榮泰：廣告用的。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
呂委員玉玲：什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
卓院長榮泰：廣告詞。 |
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呂委員玉玲：廣告詞？閩南語啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有啦！就是比較常見的一些廣告詞，用日語發音的。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
呂委員玉玲：這個就是台語是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
卓院長榮泰：HONDA、TOYOTA這種的。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
呂委員玉玲：台語耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你說台語喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我是說台語耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我以為你說日語耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我說台語，我說院長，你會不會講台語？你是講哪一種台語？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我當然會講台語，我一出生就講台語啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
呂委員玉玲：哪一種台語？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
卓院長榮泰：哪一種台語？我最熟悉的台語。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
呂委員玉玲：因為台語有很多種，在臺灣通行的，像閩南語、客家語，還有原住民語，都叫做台語，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
卓院長榮泰：都叫做國家語言。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
呂委員玉玲：是臺灣的國家語言嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
呂委員玉玲：就是台語嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以台語包含很多種，只要是在臺灣的方言都叫台語，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
卓院長榮泰：台語包括很多種我們自然所用的語言，包括原住民語，包括客語，包括我們的手語，都是我們的國家語言。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
呂委員玉玲：對，國家語言在臺灣就叫台語。院長，我們都是臺灣人…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
呂委員玉玲：臺灣的方言、臺灣的台語有這麼多種，我們不能夠忽視其他的族群，所以不能說台語就是獨尊閩南語，這樣對其他的族群是非常不公平的。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以我一直說，這是我們的國家語言，我們也會設立國家語言的研究發展中心。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以通通都可以叫台語，臺灣的閩南語、臺灣的客家語、臺灣的原住民語，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我還是希望通通叫做國家語言。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
呂委員玉玲：是，我知道院長在閃躲啦！其實我剛剛一直強調，我們都是臺灣人，我們的祖先在臺灣幾十年的打拼耕耘才奠定下來了基礎，所以每一個族群對臺灣都有貢獻、都有付出，我們應該要公平地對待，更何況應該要海納百川，這才是有公平對每一個族群。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][1] |
本席今天會這樣子問就是因為現在一直在講台語是屬於什麼語言，台語就是臺灣通行的語，就叫做台語，所以我們看到文化部有特別發文到各縣市去，要他們去修正台語就是閩南語，閩南語就是台語。院長，你支持、你認同嗎？你的態度又是怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這種講法也是一種自然的講法啦！現在所謂閩南語、台語，大家也是常常把它們混在一起講，這個也沒有對錯問題，就是大家習慣性的用語。我覺得在這裡除了尊重大家對自己所有母語的保存及使用之外，對這種自然的講法，大家也應該比較包容啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
呂委員玉玲：院長，你這樣抹煞了祖先在臺灣貢獻的各個族群，這代表著自我減弱了語族的勢力，跟自我縮小了語言僵硬的、矮化的作法。 |
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卓院長榮泰：我並不覺得。 |
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呂委員玉玲：怎麼不覺得？ |
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卓院長榮泰：因為很自然地表達任何一種語言或者稱呼一種語言，那就是一種文化的包容。 |
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呂委員玉玲：可是你不能獨尊啊！現在台語獨尊是閩南語耶！ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們到客家地區的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
呂委員玉玲：包括文化部都發文到各縣市去了，所以我們很多客家的鄉親通通群起抗議…… |
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卓院長榮泰：我們到客家地區的時候，講客語也都能夠…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
呂委員玉玲：院長，你都沒有聽到這些聲音嗎？包括我們的文化部長李部長都上來了，部長，你也是客家人。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
李部長遠：是、是，我來回答。 |
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呂委員玉玲：我知道有很多客家的戲劇都是你編排的，你也寫了很多客家的童話，包括晚上在我的地方，紙風車要表演客家文化的劇本，都是從你的童話故事改編過來的。 |
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李部長遠：對。 |
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呂委員玉玲：所以本席在這邊要強烈地要求，我們應該要更正、修正為臺灣的閩南語、臺灣的客語、臺灣的原住民語，要海納百川，要有廣大的含義，台語的內涵是廣大的，包含著客語、閩南語跟原住民語，連手語都包括進去，我們不能矮化自己啊！不能讓語言的疆域變小了，尤其是如果講閩南語的話，它來自哪裡？它來自福建省，從漳州、泉州過來，尤其是部長，你的父母也是從福建的客家過來的，這都可以一起去發展我們的語言，國家語言要一起公平地發展，這是本席要強調的。所以我請教院長、部長，你們可不可以做這個修正？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
李部長遠：我可不可以回答一下？其實當初會有這個語言的制定是因為臺灣有非常多的語言漸漸消失，譬如說我們剛才講台語、客家語、原住民語或是手語，漸漸消失，我們才會制定這個語言法，其實兩年前我們制定所謂台語是臺灣台語或者臺灣閩南語或者台語都可以用。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以剛剛我強調了，臺灣的閩南語也是來自福建。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
李部長遠：對、對。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
呂委員玉玲：最多的就是漳州跟泉州。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
李部長遠：其實就是臺灣台語。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以你把臺灣的台語叫做福建的台語嗎？可以這樣講嗎？沒有人認同啊！很多都是自外而來的。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
李部長遠：我最近去日本看到他們有一本書寫臺灣華語，臺灣華語是什麼意思呢？就是語言透過一段歷史以後，它會有演變，臺灣華語就是經過歷史演變，隔很長一段時間之後，這個語言已經跟中國大陸的那個語言不太一樣，所以寫臺灣華語，其實大概就這個意思啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我現在是認為對在臺灣貢獻的各個族群你都要公平對待。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
李部長遠：我們都冠上臺灣。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
呂委員玉玲：臺灣講的各個方言都是他的母語，所以我們要給予尊重，要公平對待。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
李部長遠：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以你應該要做個修正，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
李部長遠：是，我會去檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我現在就是講客家，我們客委會的主委還沒有站出來，請客委會的古主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
主席：麻煩請客委會主委備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
呂委員玉玲：因為很多臺灣人使用的很多方言都是我們國家語言發展法內所界定的國家語言，所以都應該稱作台語。古主委，我剛剛已經講了很多了，你是客委會的主委，客家的鄉親很氣憤的就是你靜悄悄的，幫客家人說一句話都沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，其實我們是尊重每個族群的自稱跟他稱。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
呂委員玉玲：你代表客家委員會的主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
古主任委員秀妃：是，所以我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我們全國客家人有將近六百萬人，我們是第二大族群，你沒有一句話嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
古主任委員秀妃：是，跟委員報告，我剛剛提到我們尊重所有族群的自稱跟他稱，客家人對於所謂閩南人都是講「河洛」，所以這是一般平常日常的稱呼，至於臺灣台語、台語或者是閩南語…… |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我在講客家，你跟我發言講客家。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
古主任委員秀妃：是，我剛剛提到了，就是尊重所有族群，因為閩南人自己也會稱他的…… |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
呂委員玉玲：你自己不尊重自己，人家怎麼會尊重你呢？你到現在還沒講客家耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
古主任委員秀妃：我剛剛提到了，客家稱閩南的族群一般是講「河洛」。 |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我們尊重閩南、尊重閩南的族群，我們都尊重，我現在是要公平對待。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
古主任委員秀妃：是，我們對於自稱我們的語言是客語、臺灣客語的這個部分，以及稱臺灣河洛，也可以說臺灣台語，都是自稱跟他稱…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
呂委員玉玲：主委，你不要在這邊繞口令了，我對你非常地失望！我在這邊要重申的就是，我們台語獨尊為閩南語的作法抹煞了所有祖先在這塊土地上的努力，也扼煞了臺灣客語，甚至於我們客家文化的發展。大家都說客家人要認真、要打拚、要堅持，所以我希望院長、部長、主委，你們應該要讓我們的客語能夠重生，讓我們的台語不能只有代表閩南語，而是代表臺灣所有的方言，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
呂委員玉玲：兩位請回。接下來我想請問的就是，龍科三期到現在還靜悄悄的，臺灣的半導體產業在國際間都占有舉足輕重的角色，尤其是工研院有統計過，2023年臺灣半導體的產值有將近新臺幣4兆3,428億元，今年有可能就會達到5兆的大關卡，以新竹科學園區為中心的桃竹苗地區，就憑著成熟的半導體產業鏈成為臺灣科技的廊道。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][1] |
所以賴清德總統特別在這個基礎上也提出了桃竹苗大矽谷的計畫，在2月22日行政院也通過了，預計在這4年會突破6兆產值、增加14萬個工作機會，希望桃竹苗半導體整個產業的實力能夠更促進我們區域的發展，其中龍潭的龍科三期就是涵蓋在桃竹苗的大矽谷計畫裡面。2022年的時候，蘇貞昌院長就宣布要啟動龍科三期，當時沒有跟地主溝通徵收的範圍，造成了很多的民怨，後來本席跟科管局跟桃園市政府溝通之後取得了共識，大概要發展的面積有90公頃，已經有共識了，但是就缺少了兩次公聽會。上個會期本席也問過院長，院長說大概在3月、4月會舉辦這兩次的公聽會，到現在要10月了，還沒有舉辦，為什麼卡關了？卡關的原因在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
卓院長榮泰：因為地方上對於龍科三期園區的範圍還在討論，我們如何跟地方加強溝通，尤其是跟桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫，怎麼樣融進去，這個部分國科會是有進度的，請國科會來說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：現在竹科管理局積極在協助桃園市政府跟居民溝通，現在桃園市政府還有一些細節必須要解決，一個就是國小的部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
呂委員玉玲：沒有，就等兩次的公聽會，就等你的公聽會了，全部溝通、共識協調好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：好像還沒有完全解決。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
呂委員玉玲：哪一個部分？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：就是國小的部分，國小遷…… |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
呂委員玉玲：國小的部分，院長在上個會期承諾我了，叫德龍國小嘛？原來你們是要把德龍國小北遷到湧光路，跟祥安國小是重疊的校區，我們建議不要重疊校區，應該讓在地4個里的學生都可以在這邊就讀。所以本席當場就建議了，可以在聖亭路這個地方，或者是346巷這個地方，有兩個地方，還有美語村這個地方，都有兩個地方讓你選。到現在6個月過去了，選好了沒有？還是有更好、更適合的地方？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：這一部分科學園區管理局沒有意見，只要市政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
呂委員玉玲：市政府也沒有意見啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：市政府協調好…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以你們兩個要去協調啊！這你們要確定。現在是由市政府確定，還是科管局確定？ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：當然是市政府，因為這個要跟居民溝通，還有…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
呂委員玉玲：好，請問年底以前可不可以開這兩場公聽會？ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：只要市政府同意的話，我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
呂委員玉玲：同意什麼？同意這個校址出來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：我們一定協助。 |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
呂委員玉玲：校址不是最重要的問題！公聽會是要先徵收土地，116年就要土地徵收跟進行所有工程的進度。116年就要執行了，卻到現在還沒有公聽會，可不可以承諾我年底以前辦公聽會？ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：我們是要跟地方政府一起辦公聽會，因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
呂委員玉玲：當然一起。院長，年底以前可不可以？ |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：只要桃園市政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
呂委員玉玲：你不要推給桃園市政府，他這邊沒有問題的。 |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我聽起來是國科會跟桃園市政府之間的溝通還要再加強，我想這個如果能夠請委員也幫忙，看桃園市政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以我說沒有問題，現在是看國科會，請科管局年底以前辦兩場，因為去（112）年就已經辦兩場了，這是沒有共識的；現在有共識，辦兩場是很快的。 |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
卓院長榮泰：辦公聽會並不難，取得共識才最重要。 |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
呂委員玉玲：已經取得共識了。我報告：已經取得共識了，就是有共識才等，從三、四月等到七、八月也沒有，有這麼難嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我請主委跟委員瞭解之後，我們照這個方向來走。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
呂委員玉玲：還是因為桃園大矽谷計畫？國發會還沒有送計畫到行政院去核准，所以你們要等著這個政績歸納到大矽谷計畫嗎？因為這個延宕而去等大矽谷計畫嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
呂委員玉玲：如果沒有，就年底來辦公聽會啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：我們是朝這個方向在走，就是桃竹苗大矽谷…… |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
呂委員玉玲：那就年底以前來舉辦公聽會。 |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：只要市政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
呂委員玉玲：沒問題，已經有共識。 |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
吳主任委員誠文：是，只要市政府……條件是這樣，市政府沒問題，我們就沒問題。好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
呂委員玉玲：那就是年底辦兩場，好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[125][1] |
接下來，我想請問的是SRF在桃園市的桃科已經有送計畫，二度被經濟部撤回處分。現在經濟部撤回了，桃園市政府也二度撤回了這個處分，產業也準備要提訴願。我不曉得院長、環境部長，還是次長，針對這件事情，你們了解嗎？先請教院長，你知道這整個過程嗎？為什麼有這個過程？ |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
卓院長榮泰：最新的發展是今天環境部有對於SRF一些重要的關鍵…… |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
呂委員玉玲：要更嚴苛的標準。中午開了記者會，市政府已經在三個月前就說，要更嚴苛的標準…… |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，但是不是能夠一致呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
呂委員玉玲：但先決條件是已經被撤銷處分了，撤銷處分就沒有辦法入園了，沒有入園，更嚴苛的標準在哪裡呢？你要把因跟果搞清楚啊！部長，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
陳次長正祺：報告委員，現在的程序是經濟部撤銷原來市政府否決它入園的處分，回到原點，市政府要重新審核，市政府又再度否准它入園…… |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
呂委員玉玲：沒有再度否准，處分不行入園…… |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
陳次長正祺：不行，否准就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
呂委員玉玲：對，否決掉了。 |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
陳次長正祺：那麼現在他們又提起訴願，訴願會的進行是程序面的問題。在實質面，經濟部還是鼓勵廠商遵守最嚴格的標準，跟桃園市政府好好討論來…… |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我要提醒院長跟部長，二度被桃園市政府撤銷處分，前因是因為經濟部的推薦、護航、開後門，一定要讓這三家廠商進來桃科，現在桃園市政府跟人民站在一起，不要犧牲人民的健康，所以二度處分撤銷。彭部長要更嚴苛的標準，你去更嚴苛標準，這是符合標準的，嚴苛是應該的，但是我們不要讓它入園。我不讓它入園，就不用到嚴苛的標準。既然現在已經這樣子了，我看到市政府已經撤銷了。請問現在經濟部的態度是要再撤銷市政府的處分嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
陳次長正祺：因為業者依法提起訴願之後，就由訴願會來處理，訴願會是外部的學者專家組成，我們沒有主導力量，那麼現在這個是程序面。 |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
呂委員玉玲：次長，5月13號，美國在台協會拜訪了前經濟部長王美花，針對這件事情非常關切，本席也特別去查了一下，這三家廠商當中，臺灣的立方能源由美國基礎建設投資基金持股百分之百，你們是不是受到美國的壓力？ |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
陳次長正祺：報告委員，經濟部的政策…… |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
呂委員玉玲：非要支持不可？ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
陳次長正祺：鼓勵循環經濟，而且我們要求廠商符合最高、最嚴苛的標準來處理臺灣的垃圾問題，這件事情經濟部並不是…… |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
呂委員玉玲：地方政府有權嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
陳次長正祺：地方政府有職權。 |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
呂委員玉玲：你尊重地方政府嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
陳次長正祺：要尊重由地方政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
呂委員玉玲：尊重，為什麼撤銷它的處分？ |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
陳次長正祺：因為地方政府當時撤銷的這個規定，跟它原來的入園標準不一樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
呂委員玉玲：哪裡不一樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
陳次長正祺：它用經濟部作為理由，這個不是當時地方政府做的…… |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
呂委員玉玲：因為經濟部也撤回了它自己的推薦書啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
陳次長正祺：事實上…… |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
呂委員玉玲：它不要承擔責任啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
陳次長正祺：不是…… |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
呂委員玉玲：它撤銷、收回它的推薦書耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
陳次長正祺：依照訴願會的決定，當時入園標準的規定就是由地方政府來核定，跟經濟部有沒有推薦其實是沒有關係的。 |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
呂委員玉玲：好，地方政府就不要讓它入園了嘛！你剛剛講的啊，那你要不要尊重地方？地方審核過了，不要啊！所以院長，這個過程我相信你前面應該都有去了解了，後面的結果我也告訴你了，我不希望二度還有三度，這個惡性循環要叫我們所有觀音的鄉親用健康來做代價嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
卓院長榮泰：剛剛次長講得清楚，我們尊重地方政府，但是民間的業者也有提起訴願的權利。 |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
呂委員玉玲：它訴願來了，所以我請教，它的訴願來了，你是要跟民意、跟我們桃園鄉親站在一起，還是跟業者站在一起？你們是不是受到美國在台協會的壓力？ |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，絕對沒有，訴願的程序就讓它用訴願委員會的專業…… |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
呂委員玉玲：因為次長剛剛說尊重地方政府，地方政府撤銷了，經濟部要再撤銷嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，我們尊重地方政府，但是也不能剝奪訴願的權利，就讓訴願委員會專業去處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以它的訴願，你們決定怎麼回？ |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
卓院長榮泰：現在還…… |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
呂委員玉玲：內容完全一樣，沒有更改。 |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不是我們決定，是訴願委員會的專業處理、專業的決定。 |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
呂委員玉玲：對啊！是。 |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
卓院長榮泰：在這個時候，因為環境部提出了一套更嚴謹的標準，它也許作為參考，也許有用、也許沒用，也許有助於、也許沒有助於未來的決定，這個我們都讓訴願委員會的專業判斷去處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
呂委員玉玲：好，所以我強調不要二度撤回，又來三度撤回，請你們聽聽民意、聽聽我們地方鄉親的聲音，不要讓我們為這個有污染的發電廠負擔身體的健康，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
卓院長榮泰：當初應該是為了要處理垃圾的問題想到這個方式，那大家能不能接受，我們現在用一種比較客觀的方式…… |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
呂委員玉玲：院長，你知道桃園的發電廠有幾座嗎？你知道桃園的發電廠有幾座、我們承擔了多少嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但這種循環經濟…… |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
呂委員玉玲：循環經濟不能讓桃園人負擔啊…… |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是一種新的概念。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
呂委員玉玲：你不能讓桃園負擔啊！是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[174][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是、是，如果有嚴謹的方式，大家認為有重新討論的必要，我們並不排除…… |
| gazette.blocks[175][0] |
呂委員玉玲：桃園擔負著各式各樣我們的整個基礎建設，是不是？所以請你跟民意站在一起。 |
| gazette.blocks[176][0] |
卓院長榮泰：彭部長對於垃圾的處理是積極而用心的，大家應該看到他的…… |
| gazette.blocks[177][0] |
彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實桃園有非常多露天裸露的垃圾山，我們也積極在解決，有關SRF，也建議大家可以看我們中午的記者會，我們有把它證明、也把它釐清。也報告委員，我前兩個禮拜在德國看到他們的SRF，就跟台積電一樣，沒有味道，沒有污染，而且是可以做更好的應用，解決我們所有的問題，所以我們也可以用另外一個角度好好來檢視這個SRF。如果我們是全世界最嚴格的標準，應該可以…… |
| gazette.blocks[178][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以還是要人民能接受，要人民能接受。 |
| gazette.blocks[179][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[180][0] |
彭部長啓明：要人民可以接受。 |
| gazette.blocks[181][0] |
呂委員玉玲：不要造成民怨，民眾的健康是非常重要的。 |
| gazette.blocks[181][1] |
好，接下來，院長，我們一直在講電價的問題，台電增資補償已經到5,000億了，現在我們的電價審議委員會在9月底就要來開了，今天沒有開，禮拜一也要開了。我特別去了解，電價審議委員會有17位委員，代表我們政府的有8席，代表工商跟消費者的有3席，有6席是專家學者，所以政府的態度就是關鍵，工商界當然不願意漲價嘛，所以3席當然是反對的，所以政府態度是怎麼樣？如果這8席跟我們工商、消費者站在一起的話，11席對這6席，你說這個審議委員會的結果會是什麼呢？所以關鍵在行政院卓院長的指示了。 |
| gazette.blocks[182][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的分析，這外部委員已經明顯超過政府內部的委員，所以應該是讓他們去討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[183][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我剛剛告訴你啦，6席專家而已啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[184][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我說外部委員已經超過政府內部的委員，所以讓他們…… |
| gazette.blocks[185][0] |
呂委員玉玲：是17席嗎？有錯嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[186][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有錯啊，沒有錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[187][0] |
呂委員玉玲：17席沒錯啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[188][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是外部的委員超過…… |
| gazette.blocks[189][0] |
呂委員玉玲：代表政府是8席，工商跟消費者3席，6席是專家學者，所以政府的態度是非常關鍵的，如果政府要漲價就漲價了，這是政府的態度啊！你不要不承擔漲價的問題，而推給電價審議委員會，甩鍋讓他們去背。 |
| gazette.blocks[190][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這個是制度的結果，我們設立…… |
| gazette.blocks[191][0] |
呂委員玉玲：制度，所以我說政府的代表8席…… |
| gazette.blocks[192][0] |
卓院長榮泰：設立電價審議委員會…… |
| gazette.blocks[193][0] |
呂委員玉玲：你們8席是什麼態度嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[194][0] |
卓院長榮泰：就是在討論當中，會議進行當中，他們去討論態度。之前在這個地方我也說過，民生用電的穩定關係到整個物價跟民生生活的需要，我是希望不要再增加國人民生、生活的負擔，我只能表達我希望這個樣子，但還是要電價審議委員會的委員當時討論的時候，可能…… |
| gazette.blocks[195][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我們知道台電也提出來了，台電的員工真的很辛苦耶！斤斤計較又風吹日曬，但是決策者在上面，決策者在上面啊！你們說電價要漲就漲，也不告訴我們原因，為什麼要漲？國際原物料上漲就跟著漲嗎？那為什麼國際原物料會上漲？因為我們的火力發電占了八成，為基載的主要發電…… |
| gazette.blocks[196][0] |
卓院長榮泰：國際因素影響很大，戰爭的因素影響很大。 |
| gazette.blocks[197][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以是不是我們的能源政策有問題、能源的配比有問題？為什麼不去討論、改善？ |
| gazette.blocks[198][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，剛剛我們談到…… |
| gazette.blocks[199][0] |
呂委員玉玲：有沒有其他替代能源，可以讓我們的發電成本降低？ |
| gazette.blocks[200][0] |
卓院長榮泰：科學園區多少國際大廠來臺灣都是要用綠電，這是國際趨勢，我們如果沒有全力發展綠電，會跟這個世界潮流接不上…… |
| gazette.blocks[201][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我沒有不贊成發展綠電，我支持發展綠電！ |
| gazette.blocks[202][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以我們的能源政策沒有問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[203][0] |
呂委員玉玲：是啊，是啊，但你現在八成是用火力耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[204][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們的能源政策……其中一大半是用燃氣發電。 |
| gazette.blocks[205][0] |
呂委員玉玲：對啊，所以我說有替代能源的配比，我們要不要來開個國是論壇，共同討論、解決臺灣未來能源的問題？這才是正事，不要造成民怨，但一直都沒有討論耶！我們一直喊說台電受不了了，台電也提出不漲民生用電，而工業用電漲14%，這個你支持嗎？院長支持嗎？台電提出來啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[206][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這就要讓電價審議委員會去討論，我們在這裡講多了有所不宜。 |
| gazette.blocks[207][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以院長你一直都不敢承擔，就甩鍋給電價審議委員會，8席是政府代表啊！關鍵在這8席，你為什麼不解決問題呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[208][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但這個機制我還是要尊重啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[209][0] |
呂委員玉玲：當然尊重，所以聽我們的指示嘛！8席政府代表啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[210][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們有研析過整個內容…… |
| gazette.blocks[211][0] |
呂委員玉玲：要承擔，包括我們的賴清德總統跟院長，你們都要承擔啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[212][0] |
卓院長榮泰：承擔也不能在電價委員會開會之前，我就說我決定怎麼樣，這個絕對不宜。 |
| gazette.blocks[213][0] |
呂委員玉玲：台電也提出建議了，審議委員8席代表，你還是這樣繞來繞去，就是不願意承擔！ |
| gazette.blocks[214][0] |
卓院長榮泰：台電也是基於專業分析跟財務分析，所以做了幾項內容，這個就要交到電價審議委員會去討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[215][0] |
呂委員玉玲：所以你不漲了？台電也講了，那就不漲了？ |
| gazette.blocks[216][0] |
卓院長榮泰：台電？ |
| gazette.blocks[217][0] |
呂委員玉玲：是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[218][0] |
卓院長榮泰：台電到現在只是有一些分析，結論還是電價審議委員會。 |
| gazette.blocks[219][0] |
呂委員玉玲：分析了，你尊重它的分析嗎？最苦的就是台電啦！你的能源政策不改，它只能照單全收，不然怎麼辦呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[220][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以我們要幫台電既能做電網安全，也能照顧民生，也能反映成本，也能穩定物價…… |
| gazette.blocks[221][0] |
呂委員玉玲：強韌電網已經喊了10年，預算超過五千億，不是補貼台電的虧損，光是強韌電網部分就五千億囉！ |
| gazette.blocks[222][0] |
卓院長榮泰：政府能做的就是把它過去負擔的政策任務補助，移轉到目的事業主管機關，減輕它的政策負擔。 |
| gazette.blocks[223][0] |
呂委員玉玲：院長，請你要去正視，加上要承擔，解決臺灣的能源問題，能源的未來要如何，不要讓我們一代接一代都要去承擔，人民受不了了。 |
| gazette.blocks[224][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們這次最大的改變…… |
| gazette.blocks[225][0] |
呂委員玉玲：不是我們這一代，連我們下一代都要承擔。 |
| gazette.blocks[226][0] |
卓院長榮泰：就是讓它的很多政策承擔、補貼政策，回到各目的事業主管機關，減輕它的財務壓力，郭部長也講過，他希望兩年內能夠看到台電往財務健全的方向走。 |
| gazette.blocks[227][0] |
呂委員玉玲：不要用口號治國、口號發電，好不好？兩年內能解決嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[228][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這沒有一句口號，郭部長說過，他希望兩年內讓它朝向財務健全的方向前進，這個不是口號，這個我們要一步一步踏實的做到。 |
| gazette.blocks[229][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我們期待，我也期待是這樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[230][0] |
卓院長榮泰：一起努力啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[231][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我也期待。所以在這邊，院長，針對現在的電價問題，你有沒有要對民眾說的？因為民眾已經受不了了。 |
| gazette.blocks[232][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我會跟民眾一起節約用電，那麼對電價的…… |
| gazette.blocks[233][0] |
呂委員玉玲：節約用電又是口號了…… |
| gazette.blocks[234][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這不是口號…… |
| gazette.blocks[235][0] |
呂委員玉玲：天氣這麼熱可以不開冷氣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[236][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果把節約用電當成口號的話…… |
| gazette.blocks[237][0] |
呂委員玉玲：漲電費就是萬物皆漲、物價高漲，所有的產業鏈都會漲價啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[238][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們做了很多節約用電的措施，包括我們明年度對於家電的補助，希望能夠更換成高效率的家電補助，我們又投注了相當的預算，這個都是一步一步在做，絕非口號而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[239][0] |
呂委員玉玲：我們的支出很多了，根本沒有辦法治本，所以請院長正視這個民怨，好不好？謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[240][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[241][0] |
主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢，接下來我們請登記第30號王正旭委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
104 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳雪生 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
吳春城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
萬美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
21 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-09-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137601 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1137601_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1137601_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137601_00003 |