| IVOD_ID |
154557 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154557 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024070333 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-08T09:44:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-08T09:54:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a48c57c7f28567ce5528e157563c83e5d4ff7eb5b876a53c529ef337da9650dc45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:44:56 - 09:54:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響」公聽會） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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非常感謝主席今天非常謝謝這麼多的專家學者針對《吹哨者保護法》提供我們非常多寶貴的建議在這邊作為司法法制委員會的議員我要向所有出席這一場公聽會的專家學者表達我個人非常誠摯的建議各位所發表的高見有的時候我們雖然比較忙在各個委員會跑沒有辦法坐在這邊全程聽完但一定會成為我們接下來修法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
36.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
55.659 |
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非常重要的參考依據我自己對於《摧要者保護法》的觀察是包括了很多學者或者是專家所提出來的公司部門到底要不要合併那如果洩密行為本身構成不法行為的時候在什麼要件下在什麼程度範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.172 |
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應該要免除他的法律責任我相信這些問題其實在台灣一點都不新穎討論超過10年以上討論超過10年以上因為我2016年到2020年那個時候在立法院服務的時候我也推動了吹哨者保護法那時候其實已經完成了委員會的審查但我們現在已經是2024年了2024年過去這十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.594 |
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105.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
相關的問題包括公司部門要合併還是要分流對於有一些企業內部不法的行為在什麼要件下我們應該可以保護在什麼樣的要件下應該要予以處罰如同我剛剛跟大家所報告的其實國內的文獻非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
127.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們2016到2020在委員會討論的時候那個時候法務部還有提版本出來是按照法務部的版本在審那是公司部門合併所有的疑問法務部那時候都回應但問題是什麼台灣為什麼吹哨者保護法推到今天我們還在原地踏步 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.294 |
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155.443 |
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是主政者的決心不足還是在阻擋這個法案的大監控背後的利益團體政治上面拉比的力量太強了這兩個因素我自己都功逢其勝全部都遭遇過因為有大監控啊是花好幾千萬的預算啊在買媒體啊買宣傳啊在拉比啊不要推動吹哨子的保護法為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
157.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
174.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
有人出來揭弊的時候有人出來揭弊的時候把這些弊案攤在陽光下的時候本來住豪宅坐豪車的大金控的老闆就有可能被羈押嘛就有可能被訴追犯罪嘛這個所以我們私改會議總結報告2017年8月12號有結論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
183.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
191.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
到現在崔少哲保護法跟大家報告跳票2523天2523天2523天是什麼概念大家可以一起想一想台灣還有多少時間可以這樣蹉跎下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
201.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
214.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們還要讓勇於出來吹哨的人遭受到迫害遭受到追殺到什麼時候這個是立法院要非常嚴肅面對的問題啊真的要非常嚴肅面對的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
不要為了保護少數的大金庫的老闆讓一堆需要被保護的吹哨人沒有辦法得到正常的保護我們首次反貪腐國家公約的報告說要制定公司部門揭弊者保護機制這個報告是2018年這是我國將反貪腐公約國內法化了以後我們所負的國家義務我們所負的國家義務2018年講到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
275.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
國際審查委員建議我們要立法處理揭弊者保護第二次國家報告的時候說要公私部門合併我們的政府的態度是變來變去一會要分開一會要合在一起然後結果呢國際審查委員指責立法院要立法院優先審議揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
276.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
304.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
但我們的反貪腐國家公約包括那個國家報告本身包括找國際審查委員來審查本身花了納稅人不少錢啊花了納稅人這麼多錢結果最後的結果是什麼最後的結果就是沒有結果花納稅人的錢大拜拜搞得很熱鬧發新聞稿國際審查委員來也告訴了我們國家該做的什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
305.851 |
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331.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有做嗎有做嗎做在哪裡做到今天啊揭弊者保護法草案我們的行政院啊到底在哪裡到底在哪裡還要拖多久然後結果最近一次又轉彎了一開始是要公私分開後來要公私合併現在又要公私分開光這個基礎的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
334.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
348.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
光這個基礎的問題現在成為什麼 拖延的藉口拖延的藉口每次問到永遠都在演繹我只問一個最簡單的問題跳票2500多天了還不夠久嗎台灣還有多少個2500多天被迫害的吹哨者還有多少個2500多天 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
362.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
386.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這不是法律設計要怎麼設計的問題我報告過了我們的學者專家我們律師界的先進我們的法官都很認真過去這十幾年來累積的論述漢牛衝動相關可以研議的資料非常非常的多甚至2016到2020年那一屆我們的法務部還有自己提草案出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
387.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
409.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
結果到現在2024年我們的法務部我們的行政院草案在哪裡不見蹤影每一次問永遠就在拖永遠都在混社會上有很多不同的意見我們會持續的研議持續的探討持續的研議持續的探討我不希望下一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
411.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
440.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
立法院的司法法制委員會繼續在討論這個問題的時候是10年以後10年以後我們依然在研議依然在探討到底要是公私合併還是要公私分開吹哨者被迫害的人在角落裡面哭泣前我大財團大金控的老闆在那邊笑哈哈我簡單舉個最簡單的例子就好了我前一陣子揭發了我前一陣子揭發了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
441.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
470.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們上市公司還是我們綠能國家隊拿納稅的30億結果幹什麼事情在我們的軍事要塞裡面放了會危害國家安全會危害國家安全不是我說的我們國安局說的會危害國家安全的中國支通訊產品我為什麼會知道這件事有人檢舉嘛有人吹哨嘛他不吹哨 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
471.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
493.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他不吹哨社會怎麼知道這件事大家怎麼知道這件事情我們在設計這個機制的時候要在這一個上市公司裡面的人他們如何自處第一個跟老闆報告老闆你這樣做不對老闆說你明天回家吃自己這個是我們絕大多數人在職場的經驗第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
503.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
507.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第二個他要怎麼做跟主管機關具名前取公司很快就知道這個人是誰知道了又怎麼樣他被追殺了又怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
517.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
541.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們這個社會我們這個社會到底要他如何自處總要給他一個行為準則嘛什麼時候你可以揭弊什麼時候你不可以揭弊什麼時候你揭弊會被保護什麼時候你揭弊會用泄密罪來追溯你當然不是全部都保護啊但我們也不可以放任 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
543.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
559.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這些人永遠被追殺那這正是需要揭弊者保護法把法律要件講清楚把法律效果講清楚這個是我覺得我們這一屆國會責無旁貸的任務一定要完成那我也利用這個機會非常感謝昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
560.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
561.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
謝謝國常委員 |