| IVOD_ID |
153982 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153982 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-15-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-13T11:23:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-13T11:37:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba06673244ed8167b5f560592432c08898e1d141634ad16f55f3ff16b6b2a727ff65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:23:51 - 11:37:23 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
1062 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時24分）主席、各位委員，有請曾主委和行政院主計總處副主計長、原民會主計室主任。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請曾主委、陳副主計長及主計室主任。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：曾主委masalu，Nga'ay ho！（您好） |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
曾主任委員智勇：masalu，Nga'ay ho！（您好） |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天你的報告裡面第1張就呈現出從105年到今（113）年度預算成長，在112年度突破100億元，從105年度到113年度總共增加了34.6億元。我先問主計主任，你知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
簡主任信惠：委員好，成長項目是禁伐補償這個項目。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的，當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取，我們看104年7月1日博物館法第六條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候，特別要求增加要設置原住民族博物館，所以開始籌編經費，一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費，以往都是一些規劃預算，所以這是法律義務支出。禁伐補償條例剛才主任也提到，這是104年12月18日立法院三讀通過，也要感謝簡東明委員，更要感謝高金素梅召委，當時在朝野協商的時候，一樣是柯總召不同意，臨門一腳，有一些故事，說來話長。所以105年1月6日公布施行，就要開始編列相關的預算，當然，這些預算不應該編列在原民會，照理應該要編列在農業部才符合原住民族基本法第二十一條的規定，但是我們還是編在原民會，所以113年6月4日立法院表決三讀通過，當然要編列，這是法律義務支出。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][1] |
再來，我們看原住民族語言發展法，106年6月14日公布，這裡面就要編列經費，成立語發基金會也要編列經費，第二十九條規定政府每年應匡列預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施，所以就開始逐年編列原住民族語言的經費，這都是法律義務支出。原住民族教育法，我們高金素梅在教育文化委員會擔任召委，也是困難重重在沒有行政院版本的情況下，在教育文化委員會非常困難的，當時也要謝謝剛到場的鍾佳濱，當時他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案，我沒有忘記你。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分一樣是法律義務支出，我只舉一條，原住民族教育法第五條，原住民族的知識體系，建構原住民族知識體系中長期計畫，從109年開始編預算，到113年度編了非常高的預算，一億四千多萬元，所以我們原住民族的權益，尤其是預算就是要透過法律。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][1] |
我們看原住民族基本法第二十條，政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權益，我們就講土地，為什麼要提？我們的土地在日據時代被劃為製糖株式會社的土地，日本敗戰之後回到日本，它有沒有把土地帶回日本？沒有啊！帶不走嘛！所以中華民國政府成立的台糖公司接收了這個土地，我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖，繳到現在還在繳，在楊仁福的時代價購了一批，本席當立委之後，我從107年就開始質詢協調。從107、108，不是只有1張，1張圖表還不夠，到109、110、111、112，不斷的質詢、協調臺糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調主計總處，光這個就3大張，才推動返還，行政院才同意編列，所以在113年度編列了五千多萬元，114年度還要繼續編列。所以原住民族的預算爭取很多都要透過法律，有的部分是要透過原住民族相關的轉型正義，這就是轉型正義之一。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][2] |
我們看花東基金，花東基金很重要的意義是落實「公務為主，基金為輔」，過去原民會本來有編列部落聚會所的經費，有了花東基金之後就全部推給花東基金，事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔。所以本席就開始協調國發會、開始協調行政院、開始協調主計總處，所以行政院就同意另訂一個花東地區原住民族部落聚會所行動計畫，就是要增加原民會的宜居部落經費，總共四億多元的經費，當然，今（113）年度編得比較少，下次有空的時候還可以再談這裡面不足的地方。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][3] |
今天又談到都會區，過去在臺灣省政府時代投入了很多，我們現在所知道的有屏東的文化會館，當時臺灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取臺灣省政府主計總處的經費；桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎？呂秀蓮當縣長的時候，我去爭取主計總處的經費，就畫了一個縣級的文化會館。鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館，所以才會有從基隆、臺北市、新北市到桃園、臺中、屏東都有文化會館，是這樣來的，各鄉鎮有一些族群有文物館，唯一沒有促成的是哪裡？雅美族，我們經費有給，但是沒有促成，這個說來話長。所以族群主流化這個經費我就開始協調爭取，召開過多次的協調會，所以行政院終於核定族群主流化公共空間的計畫，在113年度開始有這個經費。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][4] |
我舉這些例子是要讓曾主委、讓所有的同仁繼續努力，這次的禁伐補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算，全部都要額度外的預算，這是基本，因為它是法律義務支出，不能擠壓現有的預算。所以上次韓院長主持協調的時候，因為你初任這個職務不怪你，這個部分要往這個方向去努力，共同的努力，當然有些小額的，我這邊就沒有寫，這邊都是舉比較大額的。所以有一些經費原民會該不該編？有的不該編啊！副主計長，像總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會，這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢？編在原民會！莫名其妙！我當公務員30年了，從來沒有看過這種的，總統府還缺錢嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][5] |
你要回應？請說。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳副主計長慧娟：跟原住民相關的預算編在原民會可以比較看出它的全貌，法律義務的經費依法就是要編列，但是我們只是擔心它會不會去排擠到其他非法律義務的重大計畫，當然，這個部分就是我們要努力，只是我們沒辦法確保一定完全外加。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主計長，你要確保，為什麼要講那麼多？除了講給曾主委聽之外，就是講給你聽，剛才報告提到的，從105年到現在增加30幾億元，都是法律義務支出，有沒有排擠原來的？沒有啊！沒有排擠原來的，我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的，知道嗎？其實沒有排擠原來的，是新增的。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，有沒有排擠…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不能排擠、不能排擠。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳副主計長慧娟：是，但是中間可能原民會所提的計畫我們沒有辦法完全滿足，最後編列的跟它中間爭取的過程，不必然可以百分之百完全滿足原民會的需求，因為我們資源有限，但是我們會來努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億元，我們禁伐補償不過二十幾億元而已，以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
主席：副主計長，請你們要依法行政，謝謝鄭天財委員，謝謝曾主委，謝謝副主計長。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][1] |
繼續請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][2] |
羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][3] |
請鍾佳濱委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
460 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-15-24 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
林宜瑾 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
379 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-13 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1136101 |
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1136101_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住
民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原
住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推
動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政
部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
44.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
56.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破110然後這個113年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
68.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
91.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償這個項目是你知道這個好來我來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
97.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
125.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
126.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
155.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
156.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
180.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
182.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
209.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
212.113 |
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241.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年因寬裂預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施所以就開始逐年的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
242.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
265.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
原住民族語言的經費。」這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
267.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
290.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
非常困難的當時也要謝謝這個我們今天剛來的宗嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是舉一條原住民族教育法第5條舉一條原住民族的知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
291.919 |
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319.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程企劃。」所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
321.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
344.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
透過法例所以這個部分的我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社劃為這個日本蛛絲會社的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
350.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
380.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本了沒有啊帶不走嘛所以台糖中華民國政府成立了台糖台糖公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖繳到現在還在繳啊在洋人府的時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
382.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
388.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
408.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
435.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調組織總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列所以原住民族的預算的爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
437.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
465.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金花東基金很重要的意他說落實公務為主基金為輔但是有了花東基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
466.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
493.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以行政院就同意認定一個花東第七原住民族部落基會所行動計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
495.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
522.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就是要人民會增加人民會的遺跡部落計畫的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少而且這個部分下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
524.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
552.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
都會區,今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府,台灣省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取台灣省政府主計總署的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
554.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
582.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
李修連當縣長的時候我去爭取主計總署的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
584.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
608.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?亞美族的我們經費有給啊但是沒有促成那這個售來化廠所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取召開過多次的協調會所以行政院終於合定 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
609.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
637.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
族群主流化公共空間的計畫所以在113年度開始有了這個經費所以這個我是舉這些例子要讓曾主委要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
638.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
650.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
652.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
672.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
679.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
694.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
701.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
729.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
730.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
758.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
760.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
762.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
790.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
804.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上 |