| IVOD_ID |
153963 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153963 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-13T10:55:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-13T11:02:35+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba098842f07e3238669737265a8c4a9dd744d862afa46997d4e61eef51270615c565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:55:09 - 11:02:35 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告「退輔會職訓機構如何提升退除役官兵專業職能及媒合就業之具體作法」，並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案」案。） |
| gazette.lineno |
470 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（10時55分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請輔導會的嚴主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請嚴主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
賴委員士葆：還有人事總處的副人事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
主席：請人事總處副人事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：賴委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
賴委員士葆：兩位長官好，今天就是審查翁曉玲委員擬具的退輔條例第二十七條之二，我們看到這個條例，當初大家都看到這個數字、歷史可以說話，4月29號本委員會王定宇委員，資深的外交國防委員提出來的補助費，單子我都看了就不印了，我就不印了，臨時提案，他提案，我看到馬文君也簽字、林楚茵委員也簽字，不分黨派都支持，但是6月5號又提出來說這個有立法權強迫行政院增加預算的疑慮，建議修改行政命令，所以，好，今天來講的話，我們知道行政命令位階比較低，當然就修法，今天這個法，翁委員所提到的這個法，我就請教嚴主委，退輔會的立場是怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我們是希望能夠儘快恢復。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
賴委員士葆：支持嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
賴委員士葆：簡單來講支持。請教人事總處，聽說你反對，理由在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
懷副人事長敍：我們基本上認為因為這是軍公教的福利措施，退休人員部分不應該把它定在法律上面，這個應該是屬於行政院的一個權責在處理，所以我們建議這個部分應該是由行政院這邊來做處理，而不是把它入到一個退輔法裡面，以上報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
賴委員士葆：為什麼你的權力可以大超過立委啊？要不要立法，我們立委在修法、立法，多少都是把行政命令覺得位階不夠，拉到變成一個法律位階，我們一天到晚在做這個事，怎麼會你有這麼大的權力來對立法委員的法指指點點？你怎麼這麼大的權力呢？請問你，這筆錢下來的話總共多少錢？如果這個案子通過了，增加多少支出，你告訴我啊！多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
羅處長馬可：報告委員，就我們軍人恢復的話需要8,600萬左右。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
賴委員士葆：我看到的數字八千多，也有人說五千，不管八千、五千，都是一點點而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
羅處長馬可：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，就這麼少的錢，我不知道人事總處哪裡來有這麼大的權力可以否決我們立法委員的提案，你有什麼權力來否決我們呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
懷副人事長敍：我跟委員報告，不是否決立法院的提案…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
賴委員士葆：對啊！你為什麼否決我們的提案呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
懷副人事長敍：而是說您在問我意見的時候，我們表達我們行政院這方面的意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
賴委員士葆：就是你反對嘛！對不對？就這意思，你反對就是因為你認為行政權比立法權大，立法院永遠是你們的立法局，莫名其妙，你怎麼有這麼大的權力呢？一個人事總處的副人事長說不可以提這個案子，這行政命令，叫我們法律都不要修了，統統行政命令就好了，行政權獨大，就是你的思路，就是因為大家變來變去、變來變去，我們把法律定了，這才是正道嘛！我告訴人事總處的長官，不要把行政權壓制立法權，不能夠這樣子，這個法要通過才是真正地落實要照顧退伍軍人。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][1] |
另外我想請教嚴主委，我一個案子一直看了，請問你，你當過國防部長對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
賴委員士葆：這個一樣是軍人出身的、陸海空官校畢業的，分發到陸海軍跟分發到國安局、國安會就不一樣喔！分發到國安會、國安局，他的福利就跟分到陸海空的軍人完全不一樣，在過去有眷改條例的時候，到正式編制的軍人那裡都有房子啊！可是到國安會、國安局就沒有房子，這個事情已經折磨了十幾年，那些都已經垂垂老矣，剩下也只有一、兩個眷村在那裡掙扎，一直覺得說怎麼會這樣子。我也是官校畢業的，我的同學去陸海空就有房子，我去國安會、國安局就沒有房子，世界為什麼是這樣？回答一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
曹處長東發：跟委員報告，我是服務照顧處處長，我們有跟國防部討論過這個案子，國防部說有幾個新村他們現在正在核定，有幾個新村是會核定它納入眷改條例。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
賴委員士葆：哪幾個？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
曹處長東發：因為他沒有給我資料，他說他們現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
賴委員士葆：幾個？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
曹處長東發：他跟我講有3個村還4個村。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
賴委員士葆：就剩三、四個而已啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
曹處長東發：我會後再跟國防部要資料給委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
賴委員士葆：好。所以怎麼樣，你把結論講一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
曹處長東發：他們現在審查之後，如果核定確定沒問題，他們會把它納入眷改條例，至於有其他幾個村，因為它的條件不符合，這個主管機關是國防部，我們會盡力來協助這裡面的榮民、榮眷。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
賴委員士葆：我要拜託嚴主委，你以前在當國防部長的時候，國防部都是反對的，一直撤走。你的上一任馮世寬主委，我也問他，他認為他很貼心，他覺得這個事情這樣子也才對得起這一些退下來的。一樣啊！我們都是同學，只不過因為分發，他跑去陸海空軍有，我跑去國安會、國安局就沒有，國安會的副秘書長為這個事情在我的辦公室開了幾次會，國防部就是不同意，現在好不容易處長講了，國防部可以放寬了是不是？可以處理幾個？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
曹處長東發：有幾個村啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有結論？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
曹處長東發：我們會後…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：我們瞭解後再跟委員報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有結論，告訴我大概什麼時候？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
曹處長東發：這個是國防部的權責。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，你記得跟我講。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：會跟委員報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
賴委員士葆：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
主席：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][1] |
接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][2] |
請邱志偉，邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][3] |
請徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][4] |
請翁曉玲，翁曉玲，翁曉玲委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][5] |
請蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][6] |
請謝衣鳯，謝衣鳯，謝衣鳯委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][7] |
請鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][8] |
請鄭天財，鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][9] |
今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][10] |
我們現在休息5分鐘，休息過後進行法案審查。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][11] |
休息（11時3分） |
| gazette.blocks[42][12] |
繼續開會（11時12分） |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
502 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-35-27 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
馬文君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
陳永康 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
461 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-13 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1136101 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1136101_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告「退輔會職訓機構如何提升退除役官兵
專業職能及媒合就業之具體作法」，並備質詢；二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國軍退除
役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案」案 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席請各位先進有請輔導會的營主委請營主委還有人事總署的副總會常事長請人事總署副人事長那位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
42.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
兩位長官好今天就是審查翁曉玲委員擬具的退伍條例27條之二我們看到這個條例當初大家都看到這個數字歷史可以說不過話4月29號這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
45.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
74.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
本委員會王定宇委員資深的這個外交國防委員提出來的補助費那個單子我都看了就不印了我就不印了臨時提案他提案我看到馬文君也簽字了林竹英委員也簽字不分黨派都支持啊但是6月5號又提出來說這個有立法權強迫行政院增加預算的疑慮建立修改行政命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
93.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這個所以好今天來講的話我們知道行政命令位置比較低嘛當然就修法今天這個法呢歐委員所提到這個法我就請教這個原主委要退伍的立場是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
96.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
二、審查本院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
107.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
126.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們基本上認為因為這是軍公教待遇這是軍公教的一個福利措施那這個退休人員部分不應該把它定在法律上面這個應該是屬於行政院的一個權責在處理所以我們建議這個部分應該是由行政院這邊來做處理而不是把它錄到一個退伍法裡面以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
127.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
為什麼你的權力可以大超過立委啊?要不要立法我們立委在修法立法多少都是把行政命令權力位階不夠拉到變成一個法律位階我們一天到晚就做這個事啊怎麼會你有這麼大的權力來說對立法與立法委員的法指指點點你怎麼這麼大的權力呢?請問你這筆錢下來的話總共多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
185.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
如果這個案子通過了,增加多少支出你告訴我啊多少錢報告委員,就我們軍人恢復的話需要八千六百萬左右我看到的數字八千多也有人說五千不管八千五千都是一點點而已對,就這麼少的錢我不知道人事總署哪裡來這麼大的權力可以否決我們立法委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
207.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
你為什麼權利來否決我們呢?我跟委員報告我們不是否決立法院提案對啊你為什麼否決我們提案呢?您在提在問我這意見的時候我們表達我們行政院這方面的意見就是你反對嘛對不對就是意思你反對就是因為你你認為行政權比立法權大啊立法院永遠是你們的這個立法局啊莫名其妙 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
214.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
227.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你怎麼這麼大的權力呢?一個人事總署的虎虎人事長不可以提這個案子這個行政命令喔這樣我們法律都不要修了通通行政命令就好了行政權多大就是你的思路就是因為大家這個變來變去變來變去我們把法律定了這才是正道啊我要告訴這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
244.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
246.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
人事總署的這個長官不要把行政權壓制立法權不能夠這樣子這個法要通過這個法要過才是真正的落實了要照顧退伍軍人另外我想請教這個原主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
271.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
288.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我一個案子一直看請問你你當過國防部長對不對是這個一樣是軍人出身的陸海公官校畢業的分發到陸海軍跟分發到國安局國安會議就不一樣喔分發到國安會國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
308.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他的福利就跟分到入海空的軍人完全不一樣在過去有圈改條例的時候到正式的編制的軍人那裡都有房子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
309.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
可是到國安會國安局就沒有房子這個事情已經折磨了十幾年那些都已經垂垂老矣剩下也只有一兩個一個捲春在那裡偵查一直覺得說怎麼會這樣子的我也是官校畢業的啊我的同學去入海空就有房子啊我去國安會國安局啊就沒有房子啊誰敢嚇人咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
351.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
跟委員報告我是服務照護署處長我們有跟國防部討論過這個案子國防部說他有幾個新村他們現在正在核定那有幾個新村是會核定他這個納入圈改條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
352.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
377.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那幾個因為他沒有給我資料群志對不對群志他跟我講有三個村還四個村就是三四個我會後再跟國防部要資料給委員所以怎麼樣你把結論講一下那他們現在呢審查之後如果核定確定沒問題他們會把他納入捲改條例那至於有其他幾個村因為他的這個條件不符合因為這個主管機關是國防部啦我們盡力來協助這裡面的榮民榮眷這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
380.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
389.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我就拜託嚴主委你以前部長在國安部長的時候國安部都反對的在那裡一直撤走你的上一任佛世寬主委我要問他他認為他很貼心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
397.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
二、審查本院委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
420.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
接下來請楊瓊英 |