| IVOD_ID |
15341 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15341 |
| 日期 |
2023-12-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2023120474 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
10 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2023-12-07T14:30:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2023-12-07T17:34:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:03:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0f403cf36e05f7bd911cfe35ebce07af946d53a332764a535f9821bed1a1e2dda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2023-12-07T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案」等案（如附表）（國民黨黨團提議）二、研商「最低工資法草案」等案（如附表）（民進黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:30:02 - 17:34:00 |
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立法院黨團協商會議 會議開始今天要研商的主題 研商原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案等案 如附表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2632.572 |
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2661.257 |
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這個是國民黨黨團提議的二、研商最低工資法草案等案（如附表這個是民進黨黨團提議的就這樣那我先向大家報告一下協商之前就開始要進行之前先說明一下就是因為今天協商第六案刑法各黨團已經完成協商第六案相關不免就可以讓他們先離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2667.881 |
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2676.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
另外要請教各黨團的領導人今天協商我們訂到晚上九點可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2681.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2683.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2700.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2722.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
院長、各位委員同仁有關於今天的協商事實上,因為草原各黨團之間的溝通也蠻不錯的那因為第一案,有關第一案原住民保留地的部分因為還有很多部分被整體吹噬到好幾萬戶的問題可能這案我跟曾委員有一個共識說,這個案往後 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2725.287 |
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2746.921 |
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那今天比較重點大家眾所俗目的是眾所俗目的是最低工資嘛那最低工資事實上只剩四條而已啦最低工資一定將處理完畢再來政治檔案法及國家基金保護法本來是大家都簽好了只有國民黨沒有簽 國民黨剛才都簽了所以這個第三、第四也不必了 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2749.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2772.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第三、第四、政治檔案法以及國家基金保護法已經完成協商了,剛才我們私底下已經協商完畢了,都簽完了三、四案已經簽好了至於第五項以後,有關防護署的部分,明天中午還有一個黨團要協商所以我們今天會很快就集中在最低工資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2774.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2786.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好,那這樣,就等於...等一下,我馬上先等一下,現在就是說我在這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2789.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2798.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我再附送一遍就是說三案、六案、三案、四案、六案就現在不必談 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2810.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2812.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2837.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2837.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有關這個第一案因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2859.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2878.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個案子已經審查很久了這個內政委員會審查完之後是要黨團協商因為我是召集委員所以就負責黨團協商所以我在去年的去年9月23號12月9號然後今年的3月24號 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2884.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2907.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
及今年的四月十一號召開了四次的黨團協商的會議然後其中在今年的四月十一號黨團協商的時候這個內政委員會的這個我們的委員是希望說當然就是莊瑞雄委員建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2908.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2929.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
是不是我們原住民的立委自己先凝聚共識所以由我來召開會前會所以我根據張惠雄委員的意見所以在今年的五月十號然後五月二十二號十月三十一號 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2930.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2942.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
召開了這個原住民委員的會選會所以我們提出了原住民委員的共識的條文完了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2943.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2968.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們就在這個有了共識條文之後在今年的十一月十號又召開一次這個我主持的草野協商黨團協商完了之後大家對這個行政院部門行政部門行政院各部會對原住民的共識條文有意見所以才會 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2970.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2981.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
由中國國民黨黨團發文給院長來召開這個協商所以今天才會排在第一個這個意思是說是因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2982.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
3005.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
國民黨的立法院黨團在11月14號就發文給這個院長謝謝院長今天把它放在第一案既然放在第一案是不是就照順序來如果各部會或是各黨團對於我們原住民立委的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
3005.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
3034.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所共識的條文有意見再往後延都可以不能是直接就跳過了是不是大家各部會是不是可以接受說不定他們都接受啊 對不對說不定他們都接受因為我在這個最後一次黨團協商的時候有請各部會再把這些條文好好的再看然後我特別還提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
3035.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
3061.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為我們現在是在立法在過去還沒有法律的情況之下我們當時的省政府當時的省政府在沒有法律的情況之下就劃設了24萬多公頃的原住民保留地然後在民國76年因為省議員的意見立法委員、原住民的立委的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
3062.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
3080.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以七十六年開始有增畫邊也沒有法例喔就可以增畫邊保留地現在我們既然要立法就必須要考量到這些所以我的意思說我才會說請各部會要考量到這個歷史的事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
3083.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
3100.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
3102.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
3125.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案總共有35條那剛剛誠如鄭天才委員所提到的其實我們在之前已經各原住民的委員包括民進黨的兩會立法委員我們其實都已經協調出一個原住民立委的協商條文了而且我們有非常絕大部分的21條是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3128.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3129.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案（ |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3145.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3146.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
政委、政首長謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3170.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3197.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
如同剛剛鄭天才委員跟高金委員提到了有關原住民保留地管理利用條例那基本上各部會也沒多大意見那也經過鄭天才委員召集原住民委員都取得共識所以我們贊成能夠盡快完成三讀來保障原住民的相關權益這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3198.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3219.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第二點尤其是民進黨每次都講轉型爭議那為什麼轉型爭議就把原住民的該有的轉型爭議都把它提出我覺得這對原住民極度不公平所以我們贊成剛剛鄭太英財委員跟高金委員的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3223.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3251.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝院長這個原保條例是為了要解決長期以來原住民族土地上的問題那積弊很久原住民族其實也很辛苦多少的土地到現在都不合法建物也不合法那它上面住的不是只有原住民也有非原住民所以我是覺得最低限度至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3253.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3277.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
就是以願版我是希望說送出寫上盡早立法盡早確保原住民族土地的權益跟流失啦我覺得是我要表達的意見是最低限度好不好謝謝好那大家還有沒有意見沒有我們就進入進入討論了沒有意見就幾乎二讀趕快三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3284.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3300.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
報告科總召其實原住民的版本有很多人提出不同的提案可是最後在鄭天才委員的草野協商之下我們自己原住民族其實已經原住民的立法委員已經有了一個原住民的協商條文在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3301.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3326.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
包括吳立華委員包括陳寅委員都沒有意見所以我今天就是希望能夠趕快來進行通過而且我剛剛講過行政院版本有35條21條已經通過行政院的版本只有幾條有爭議我們是不是就是針對幾條有爭議的部分我們趕快再來討論一下協商的意思不就是在這裡嗎所以我希望今天能夠盡快來討論 謝謝關於鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3334.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3360.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
組織的草案協商是上行政院板還有十九條還是保留?是保留的?所以他每一條都卡來卡去,因為這個知識體大,我覺得這個不是短期這樣就可以談得完應該往後挪一下,我們再請求一些共識我說十九條條文,說二條文卡到哪一條?說不完,我聽說說不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3362.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3380.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為這個是一直遺留下來的,很多現實的問題,可能牽涉到利益衝突的很多當然我們希望就是說,能夠來解決啦,但是這個可能要一條一條拖,要十九條的,都沒留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3385.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3400.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好,那高軍委員要第三度發言謝謝,謝謝院長我第三次發言,謝謝柯總召的意見我不同意大家都知道原住民的保留地管理利用條例草案已經放了非常非常的久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3401.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3427.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
如果按照柯總召的意思說我們的行政部門還有19條是有不同的意見那不就是要趁著草野協商的時候取出共識嗎而不是柯總召一個人在這邊就把原住民最重要的土地的轉型正義而一直在把它延宕我認為這是不合期、不合理、不合法身為一個原住民在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3428.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3448.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
原住民族的主任投出來的立法委員我必須要堅持今天草野協商不就是如此嗎不能夠因為說還有19條的爭議然後我們就把它延後討論我覺得如果這麼一來的話民進黨政府是對不起原住民族更何況今天我們的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3449.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3470.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
一將主委就是當時走在原住民的權益上面原住民的土地上面的捍衛然後他現在還在位置上我相信他今天最想要通過的就是原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案而不是因為剛剛柯總召所講的因為還有19條的爭議然後就把它一直延宕這19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3473.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3500.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
大家應該出來討論更何況在內政委員會的時候也是莊瑞雄民進黨的莊瑞雄立法委員希望我們原住建議我們能夠先取得共識所以原住民族的周瑞雄取得共識了為什麼不能夠討論呢更何況原住民的立法委員也有兩位是民進黨的委員啊我不相信今天兩位原住民的立法委員會同意柯建民總召所講的我們再延後處理這一屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3501.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3527.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們都曉得這一屆如果這幾天草業協商不通過的法案這一屆幾乎就已經滅頂了所以我們早上在處理槍砲彈藥管制條例的時候我們也出席了也是新提的也是內政部警政署新提的案子為什麼新提的案子民進黨認為他是很重要的我們就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3527.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3528.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 接下來 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3559.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3559.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
國民黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3584.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3607.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝我還是要再次表達因為這一次的版本其實原保條例有廖國棟委員、陳茵委員、我還有鄭天才委員的版本說實在版本數不多但是我們在10月31號不好意思我們也有我跟鄭天才委員共提沒關係就是四個主題版本 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3608.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3608.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3625.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3644.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3644.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3657.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我是覺得最低限度不要讓他嘎然終止不了了之我最低限度我還是希望說要不然至少嘛就用願版來送協商好不好好謝謝好來廖委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3664.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3678.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝院長,因為我從很遠的地方趕回來為了要見證這個非常重要的歷史性的關於原住民的土地的這個法案然後在今天的院長的協商之下可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3680.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3704.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這次我跟高津大概是最資深的除了那個我們民進黨的柯總召以外大概我跟高津是最資深的我們一直在等待從第一任開始六任結束了要結束了還沒有完成這個是非常令人無法理解也無法原諒一直在阻擋的那個理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3705.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3727.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以我還是這裡迫切的希望院長就我們已經都已經協商我們自己內部也都協商過了所以原住民都希望迫切的希望他快速通過不要再猶豫拜託我們今天一定要審查好不好而且完全我們協商過了嘛我們自己內部都協商了沒有什麼很大的問題啊院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3730.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3741.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
學商是要你們有共識不是我有共識這不是所長制啦現在立法院跟過去立法院不一樣不是所長制不是我講了就算 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3743.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3766.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
你怎麼這麼乖,要聽我講就算了我講就叫行政院辦好了我想這樣啦,大家要有民主紅圖就是協商就是各黨團都是一個個體你們要共識局互相尊重不要說跟你意見不同就是錯的這樣不行當然當然接下來高紀委 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3769.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3787.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
抱歉要磕腫招,因為我剛剛先舉手了,謝謝你講話不要亂扣帽子好不好我沒有扣你帽子,因為你剛剛希望原住民的這個保留地能夠延後嘛所以我才會針對你的說明,所以我希望就是不要延後嘛我沒有扣帽子啊,對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3789.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3807.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
其實剛剛我很遺憾吳立豪委員在這邊發言那事實上吳委員的發言兩個重點第一個重點你希望往前走然後用行政院的版本完全通過然後第二個不要忘記了我們原住民立法委員當時你也在場鄭天才委員也在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3808.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3828.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們跟幾個部會草也協商各個不同的版本最後得出了原住民立委協商的條文我很遺憾今天根本還沒有再跟第二次的協商跟各部會就是各黨團草也協商你就已經棄守了我在這裡非常的遺憾我覺得你應該跟我們一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3830.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3858.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
跟原基法在當時立法院在協商的時候我們原住民的立法委員是站在原住民委員協商的條文裡面來捍衛我們的權益而不是就是用行政院的版本至少立法委員的職責就是在這邊草野協商而不是一昧的通過行政院的版本如果一昧的通過行政院版本的話那麼我們是不是就不要第一次的草野協商了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3858.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3871.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好不好,我希望吳立豪委員能夠堅持一下我們在內政委員會裡面的協調跟協商最後的版本,謝謝因為他一直鼎勵我這麼多次,我真的在他旁邊聽大家要有觀念,這個條文我剛剛一直講說經過這年來委員組織的所有人都來 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3884.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3909.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
總共保留19條所以這19條有的互相牽扯到互相關貼這要有這個基本觀念那第二個你一直在打講什麼武力法不是說你們原住民委員你們的草案協商就算數這個法不是只有原住民委員可以審大家都各黨各的這有延長衝突的問題很多歷史的問題一定要處理好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3910.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3929.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以我希望高金淑美委員你不要一方說我來否定你們的意思我是照意識規則看起來這個是政黨的政見台你主持還有19條啊19條你似乎沒有辦法接受你要照你們幾個文字文講的這當然不可能的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3930.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3954.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對阿,你聽我講好不好,你們一直在講這個是大家要來協商,有19條還沒協商,不是說你們三個講好的,我們就要招你們的嘛這是很重要的觀念,那老闆提議按一下齁,這又十九條了齁,不像現在這樣啦齁那後面喔,顛倒一下,最低工資先拿,那個只有三、四條而已嘛先,大家都看最低工資法,那這個往後,往後第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3956.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3958.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3980.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4000.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4000.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4028.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那這個協商版本我們希望就以這個來為主剛剛有講了因為這個是原住民族人最大最大的這個意向、嚮往那我希望以這個協商的原住民立委的協商版本為主那甚至是到11月10號最後一次的黨團協商我、鄭天才委員、廖國棟委員我們三個人也協商了就保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4029.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4029.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
十月三十一號 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4038.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4066.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
最後一次11月10號嘛我們三個人嘛 廖國棟 鄭天恩不不不那現在要保留19條 大家要搞清楚啊總召 意思 你們一直在講說你們人住民協商 大家要遵守什麼條例當然就要在今天協商啊 怎麼會今天不協商呢對啊 所以我只是要表達說 既然行政院版也出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4067.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4096.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我只是說最低限度我的意思是說千萬不要在這個會期這一屆我們又借其不蓄我不希望這樣子我要再次的表達最希望自己的版本通過要嘛今天至少原住民立委的協商版本那再要不然我們也就行政院版本沒關係我們就照照那個吧現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4097.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4111.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
吳委員完了以後就高津委員,高津完了就謝義雍委員,然後鄭天遠委員,然後鄭總召,齁,來公完,現在先公完啦,公完,現在有起頭發言前先講完啦齁,好,那現在就高津委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4113.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4126.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
非常謝謝我覺得柯總召委不可以這樣子一直點名我我點名他的原因是因為第一個他希望今天草野協商的順序能夠顛倒這是他講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4127.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4142.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
能不能夠顛倒也是要草也協商等一下要討論第二件事情就是您剛剛說原住民土地保留地還有19條是要協商的今天不就是要協商這19條嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4145.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4166.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
如果不是這19條大家還有一些不同的看法跟意見今天就不要草也協商就直接在內政委員會裡面三讀通過了不是嗎那你不能夠因為還有19條有爭議今天就把我們延宕在後面這個我不同意這個我也不接受我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4167.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4187.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我在立法院是最資深的22年跟廖國棟委員我們在任何一件法案的時候也沒有否定原住民族立法委員互相各黨派不同的協商版本那你怎麼可以氣憤的走出去呢這個實在是我不理解的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4187.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4211.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
原住民族基本法不就是有非常多不同委員提的版本最後我們原住民族立法委員取得共識然後取得共識然後再討論然後再到草野協商最後也讓他三讀通過了不是嗎最後我要提醒大家的是今天如果在這邊沒有草野協商的這個出去的話這個會期就 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4214.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4242.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
等於原住民保留地管理利用條例草案就滅頂了這個是我要提醒吳立法委員的但是我也要堅持我也要堅持我也要堅持如果今天因為我們要為了趕快讓他通過而放棄了原住民族族人還有原住民族立法委員所堅持的立場的話我也覺得很可惜謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4244.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4245.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
現在已經發言了是三位那還有三位已經起的發言前 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4261.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4282.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4283.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4308.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
其實我們根據這個就是我們所有在場的委員其實都已經充分的表達意見尤其所有的原民的委員也在場的原民委員也表達意見那其實我們應該要聽一下就是說那個原民會主委的意見畢竟他們提出行政院版本跟所有的就是原民委員溝通那到底為什麼溝通到現在還有19條保留條文那怎麼樣子有異議沒有辦法過 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4309.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4309.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
政經財務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4323.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4345.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
很簡單這個經過非常多次的草野協商主持了然後原住民立委既然有共識的條文就成了剛剛柯總召講的19條那就針對這19條我們可以一條一分鐘有沒有意見 有意見我們就知道了 有沒有意見 有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4348.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4371.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
不是 我是說我是說這種的我是我是說不要說直接就說弄到弄到後面我的意思是這樣所以你要很詳細的也可以我根本更希望更希望很詳細的而不是馬上就變成就放在後面所以這個部分這個就是因為只剩下19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4373.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4396.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以應該很快啊好 接下來就請曾永昭好 謝謝既然行政院有版本那原住民委員會既然提這個版本為什麼沒有在立法院還有溝通那恐怕原住民委員會主委恐怕不適任了對啊 行政院版本為什麼沒在溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4406.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4430.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那真的懷疑喔那這原住民委員會主委在做什麼我都覺得你還有你還想還坐在那裡我就很奇怪喔我贊成啊先讓他講講看嘛那有必要的時候請他出去啊會不會快一點謝謝因為我想先休息啦因為現在是黨團的意見不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4433.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4447.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
不是,是你們黨團意見要不要協商,要用哪一個做基礎,你們黨團的意見委員長,我做誠信問題,很簡單的發言就好了今天在草園上沒有錯,保留19條這是大家很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4448.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4473.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那大家不要說我照原住民你們這邊協商的一定要大家要接受我沒有這樣講就好OK好那我是認為最低工資只有四個條件真的那只有頂的要這樣講起來嘛沒關係嘛都大家不要跑啊都坐下來啊還是坐在這裡假如照正面上的委員講說好四個條件有沒有意見有沒有意見保留這也可以這不是這個好嗎這個三分鐘就結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4477.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4477.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
謝謝主席還有各位委員各位委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4508.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4519.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個保留的19條條文都跟行政院驗版沒有關係大部分都是各個委員的版本他們加進來的一個修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4522.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4546.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個19條幾乎都沒有驗版的條文在這個地方所以在之前我們都已經想盡辦法請各位委員支持我們的驗版大概是這樣的一個過程也請謝委員特別跟你說明一下我想鄭委員自己那個都是委員的版本啦好 休息五分鐘 您講一下 講訴馬上出來來 好 休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4962.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4978.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
院長各位同仁,我想今天我們協商法案是大家應該心明氣合,照遊戲規則來。那剛才聽了原住民主委的一句話,這19條都是院版沒有的新增的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4980.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4999.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
當然我們尊重原住民委員他們對於原住民權益的保障上面的努力這是一個很長期的課題在台灣天空已經至少三十年以上還有營館會牽涉到的權利義務很多我引進最近 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
5000.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
5022.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那大庭啊,大庭判出來齁,這抵押錢不可以,抵押錢不可放有所謂的抵押錢齁,是會被拍賣的,所以這裏面有抵押錢是不可以放進去的還有很多包括農業錢等等、典當錢等等齁,就牽涉到剛剛這一個部分,就牽涉到非常複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
5023.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
5034.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那都整個辦好了那我再次的肯定當初市民包括有立法委員包括政經財委員包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
5035.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
5037.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
民進黨團提議． （國民黨團提議． （國民黨團提議． （國民黨團提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
5057.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
5066.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
至於後面那個19條文,我個人比較承認呼籲請主委再一溝通,否則我們吵不完,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
5070.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
5090.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好,那這樣齁,這個有關你剛才講的這個原保法這個部分還是要請主委再辛苦一下跟大家溝通因為那個有19條說意見還是不一致嘛那大家現在都覺得說那個我們先把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
5091.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
5092.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
請大家先看最低工資法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
5119.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
5135.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
現在大家就說這個最低工資怎麼溝通嘛齁主委肯定溝通你如果說今天這個要繼續我沒問題啊對啦對啦對啦啊我們現在這個最低工資法先給他先給他處理完這樣啊就討論啦來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
5150.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
5152.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主席主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
5173.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
5173.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
立法院黨團提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
5184.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
5184.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
國民黨團提議）． |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
5205.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
5226.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
民進黨想提代負債決議可是以前慣例很像負債決議就請他們到院會不是啊,負債決議我們都不處理那我就跟他們說請他們從在院會送不是,他們現在可以送但是我們就不處理就對了我們就收就好了就只有收就好了就收就好了問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
5238.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5239.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5263.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5265 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5293.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5316.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好 那我來 要不要來 開始啦好 可以齁 開始 那我首先 現在就是 學校協商最低工資法草案啦齁 那我首先介紹一下我們內席的部會所長 勞動部部長許冰村女士 那我就介紹到這裡齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5320.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5346.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好,介紹到這裡我先跟大家報告一下啦齁最低工資法草案齁這個社會福利及衛生環境委員會以今年10月18號完成審查保留部分是行政院提案共11條黨團與委員提案1條並於11月20日再進行協商最後保留齁行政院提案3條黨團與委員提案1條 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5349.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5373.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以現在就剩四條,四條就對了四條了齁,那我們就用這個十一號、十二號做基礎啦齁第七、第九、第十二以及十六之一啦好,那就以這個做基礎,那我們首先針對第七條針對第七條,來,第七條看大家有什麼意見這樣他先走手喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5382.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5406.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好謝謝院長那各黨團的代表部長那第七條的部分是這個審議最低工資審議會的組成嘛那因為第一個部分因為這個院版政府關聯部會的部分有經濟部的代表一人國家發展委員會代表一人那結果沒有勞動部的代表那 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5407.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5426.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
對,那部長,剛剛上次有講啦那部長主持,但是部長是主席啊那你現在變成是說連一個勞動部的代表來代表勞工來發聲的這個席次都沒有啦那這是第一個第二個是說,上次 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5428.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5444.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個召集黨團協商的時候那現在這個我們可以看到是說有勞方代表7人、資方代表7人、學者專家代表4人那實例的版本是說勞方代表、資方代表、學者專家都是777、都是7人 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5445.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5464.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那勞動部在解釋說那為什麼這個學者專家是世人因為這個日本是公正專家就是說這個公益委員他有一個叫做勞動策委員使用策委員就是資方的然後這個有一個公益委員結果這個按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5465.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5494.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
日本或是韓國都是日本是666然後韓國是999結果勞動部的說法勞動條件及平等是師長黃維琛師長有來嗎師長的說法是說我們看到其他國家像日本、韓國的審議的機制裡面就是三方機制那這三方機制就是等邊三角形然後學者專家這邊在家 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5495.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5511.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那我們參考其他國家大概處理的部分就是政府方大概就是屬於公益方的這個區塊三方的代表人數是相等的市長你這樣講嘛但是你這個見解是完全錯誤的嘛你怎麼可以在委員會裡面這樣亂講 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5514.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5537.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
根本日本跟韓國都不是這樣的你自己在勞動部在一零五年的委託研究計畫報告裡面說什麼說南韓最低工資委員會分別為公會代表僱主聯合會代表跟代表公眾的獨立委員會一比一比一的方式組成日本相同政府部門亦未直接參與該委員會的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5541.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5556.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們把日本的現在的最低工資的這個審議委員會的名簿全部找出來你可以看到這個他的所謂的這個學者專家代表就是那六席嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5556.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5575.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
立政大學的經濟部教授．亞細亞大學經濟部教授．民智大學法學院教授．立教大學經濟部教授．獨立行政法人勞動政策研究研修機構的理事長．跟法政大學的這個教授．有哪一個是政府．政府策略代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5577.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5603.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
說勞動部怎麼可以在委員會在省召委主持在省的這個最低工資法的時候你用不正確的資訊在誤導委員不然你聽得懂我的意思嗎?你能拿去看你們自己的研究也說政府的機構政府的代表不是算入這一個公證公益委員就是這個第三方的這個學者專家代表裡面啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5604.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5624.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你怎麼可以這樣說?結果導致說什麼?因為你的說法是說你把這個這個國會的代表也好或是經濟部的代表也好或你是這個主席你把它算進去所以你說這樣加起來已經學者專家只能有四個人這是不對的完全錯誤的一個資訊嘛你太狠了吧這真的很離譜欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5631.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5656.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
日本的中央、日本的最低工資審議委員會人的代表都是有名有姓他是什麼樣大學的教授都是有名有姓的專家他的政府的機關劣勢你如果說你勞動部不要有代表我也沒意見你經濟部要代表一人這個國發會要代表一人我也沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5657.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5673.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
但是你學者專家你過去的研究跟現在這個參考日本韓國韓國就是999日本就是666那你這裡你基本上你不可能是說你的專家學者到最後只剩下7個人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5674.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5692.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那想也知道嘛你現在這個經濟部的代表跟這個國外會的代表他有代表產業界的立場啊他怎麼會是這個在日本人所說的叫做公益委員這想也知道嘛他是一側的他代表就算他跟你也不一樣的意見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5693.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5719.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
同樣的話不要講四、五次好了他這個是錯誤的你應該要譴責他欸你現在在欺負委員對啊不是啊不是說廣告外圍你至少要讓人家充分表達我的意見嘛這是合理的嘛這明明是不對的事情啊所以師長我覺得第一個事情就是說你提供的資訊根本是錯誤的那你這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5721.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5745.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
應該有再討論的空間嘛這不是說現在你這樣呼呼的料保留啊保留料就柯總召一聲令下又六十起又撵過去這是不對的嘛這是一個可以講道理的 對不對那這個柯總召也看得懂日文啊你也能看啊你不是留學慶應大學K2台國所以你也可以看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5747.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5763.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
基本上這是可以說道理的沒有道理說你學者專家到最後變成四個人然後你自己經濟部也沒有你自己勞動部沒有代表就算了然後你又把經濟部跟勞動那個國發會的代表也算入到學者專家那是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5763.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5779.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你現在你的政府的官員就像日本一樣就像你的自己的報告裡面有提到說政府部門亦未直接參與該委員會的運作但是如果他要列席的話日本也是一樣他如果我們這邊有找出 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5780.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5805.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
他的這個會議紀錄他在2023年7月28號第64次的這個會議紀錄裡面他有許多的像這個這個勞動基準局的局長林牧那或者是說他的什麼什麼有一些這個課長或什麼之類的他要列席大家沒意見啦對不對但是他不應該算到這個所謂的專家學者的這個席次啦這個很清楚好接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5811.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5837.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
賴祥林委員我想剛剛那個閒置委員他當然有他去比對日本跟台灣我們現在要修法方向的一個基礎跟勞動部來做更多的這個爭取但是我相信我們還是要面對這個審議委員會他不是過去我們講的這個什麼裁決啦或者是這個做一個這個權益上面的這個審定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5838.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5860.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5860.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5881.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那基於這樣子的前提這個審議委員會過去在現在的基本工資審議小組裡面有大概也是21人嘛你們規模是沒有擴大那為什麼在審議委員會入法到現在以最低工資法之後不把它更擴大性我是覺得這是第一個大家要爭執跟理解的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5882.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5901.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那如果可以擴大的話我覺得審議委員會擴大到24人左右我們現在的版本也期待說部長當然是當人的召集人那增加勞動部的代表藝人我覺得因為就可以分擔部長在會上的角色也不需要陷入一個就是說你要裁決還是要做表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5902.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5924.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這個我覺得是我們希望有勞動部代表的原因之一這是第一個我們各家版本我看了都有那再來是增值這個專家學者的人數因為專家學者在現在四人那包括勞方代表、資方代表我認為勞方代表特別是在資訊跟專業上要很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5924.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5943.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5943.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5966.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
反而我覺得學者專家如果七更能夠在大家希望的專業度的審議裡面把幾個參財指標的專業性以及它的必要的調配的機制說服各方所以我覺得學者專家能夠也到七這樣子也讓整個審議的程序會更能夠以真正的專業務實性來做最後的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5966.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5996.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以我是期待說勞動部不用太堅持說一定要21可以增加那如果在這樣的一個基礎上這個的爭議我覺得已經很小因為幾乎每一個版本都差不多所以這裡想說就是各黨團如果沒有太大的意見我們是不是願意就提高額度到24人那勞動部或勞動部長之外的勞動部要不要派人或還有相關比較適合的部也有人那這個我覺得現在倒是可以聽聽看部長你們的考慮好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5999.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
6025.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
陳總裁第七條審議委員會是所有法裡面重中之重最重要那剛剛邱賢志委員提到了說要不要勞動部代表我不主張為什麼到時候還聽勞動部長的啊所以意思是說最重要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
6026.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
6054.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
勞方代表勞方代表最重要那專家學者我不瞞各位說我也在政府機關服務過很多政府聘的專家學者某個程度他會配合政府機關的期望所以這個不管是21人或24人我強力主張政府機關代表不用太多學者OK |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
6055.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
6082.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
但是勞方代表一定要讓他某個程度有機會過半這樣才能發揮他該有的功能政府基本代表像勞動部代表聽部長的啊經濟部長經濟部長聽部長的啊國發會也聽部長的啊那這種東西一點功能都沒有所以強力主張資方代表可以這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
6084.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
6089.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
但是勞方代表要增加簡單講要在可控制的範圍內勞方的力量至少要再平衡或者要過半啊不然你你這個這個這個審議委員假的啦到時候沒辦法執行啊政府機關代表都沒有用都聽部長了嘛你說勞動部的勞動部的代表他敢違反部長的意思啊那不好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
6112.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
6134.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以不管是21或24我強烈主張第一個 勞方代表至少要9個甚至10個那竟然我在經濟部不用代表反正國發已經有國發會代表了所以某個程度我是主張勞方代表要9個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
6136.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
6164.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那經濟部代表不用那專家學者少一個因為政府政府機關很聰明啦他會去聘比較符合政府機關期望的這些專家學者所以我建議再講一次經濟部不用啦國發會有一個那老方代表九個人專家學者可以再少一個吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
6167.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
6183.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那就專家寫者維持吧不會啊,就是經濟部不用嘛那這樣還是21個啊增加勞方代表啊,專家寫者少一個啊增加勞方代表讓他某程度開會的時候一切可以過半 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
6193.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
6202.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
有可能過半,因為不可能寫到過半嘛至少要讓這委員會裡面牢方的意見能夠充分表現那開會的時候有機會過半 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6222.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6243.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
希望知道意思大家都聽了差不多十次啦齁能說清楚的他把這個專家這個齁這個部分真要氣人嘛齁可是大家也看一下這個法條是第七條但第十二條有一個研究小組研究小組研究結果還送給審議委員會所以他有不同的機制啦那我個人的看法就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6244.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6269.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
有一句話叫 極惠淮為止我們不說日本怎麼樣我們就怎樣 各國的民情以及各國對於這個老子只有法體系的面相以及現實問題是不一樣這樣的話我們就以後的立法全部抄日本就好了所以我不認為就是說日本怎麼樣我們就怎樣 我們應該大家理性物質來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6271.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6290.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
不過這邊差一點齁 就是說 這邊有委員主張這個三角形嘛 717嘛 那個學者專家7個人當然學者專家你把他當公益代表 這邊也是公益代表啊 所以並沒有差啦 齁 就是說這是一個合意制的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6292.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6314.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
不能有說向一方啟學,就是這個政經小組幫一方啟學,這會很大的問題反正是要平衡性嘛,各方的意見都要聽差異點是在說,現在專家四個人和七個人的問題嘛那就是21和25的問題而已嘛,秋委員應該是只有這樣而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6315.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6341.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那但是呢我們現在理性討論不要就是說沒有照這樣的話就是大家都是都不對啊怎麼樣就要譴責然後以聲量來取勝我還是請這個勞動部表示要意見的我想那個民進黨也是專家嘛大家都好來談一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6346.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6360.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我補充一下啦柯總長剛剛有點誤會啦這個是勞動部的見解勞動部從頭開始他就是認為說我們看到其他國家日本、韓國的審議會的機制就是三方機制嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6360.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6388.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所以這是勞動部的設計那我也支持他這樣的設計啊就是說三個部分就是等邊三角形嘛對吧那時候他在委員會黨團協商的時候在2023這個今年的11月24號的時候他就說那如果說這邊勞動部再多一個代表我那是說啊你勞動部沒代表他說如果再多一個代表的話那這樣的話就會破壞這個三方的架構了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6389.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6402.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那這樣的話公益方就會最大的那他的說法是說因為參考其他國家政府方就是屬於公益方的區塊這是完全錯誤的政府方不是屬於公益方的這個區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6404.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6429.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
按照你的這個說法日韓的說法都不是嘛 按照你自己的研究計畫都不是 按照這個網路上跨年黑年人家日本政府公開誰在當這個他的公益方的代表 誰當他勞方代表誰在當他的所謂使用策就資方的代表清清楚楚嘛 所以不要這樣騙人那你現在就是到底你要不要按照你本來所設計的三方機制要去設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6431.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6450.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
對不對一定是這樣嘛除非說你又天外飛來一筆說我還有很多新的那你有一個新的東西你要告訴大家你要告訴大家說你現在就按照什麼樣的規範是按照德國制度嗎還是說這個地球上的這個制度都不用參考你就自己發明一個也可以你只要能夠正當化也OK |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6451.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6470.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那如果你按照你本來的說法就是日本韓國的最低工資法的設計的話那你這樣沒有道理說你把學者專家只變成世人嘛徵典在這裡嘛 對不對那你是不是說學者專家就是一樣跟這個勞方代表、職方代表一樣都是欺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6471.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6495.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那其他的政府的代表那基本上雖然我也是認為說如果按照你的研究報告的話政府部門是沒有直接參與到該委員會裡面但是他可以列席啦他列席大家沒意見嘛那如果你要把他放進去的話那就是你現在的版本但是你至少應該把學者專家調到七人跟資方跟勞方的代表一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6497.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6506.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那至少這樣大家還能夠接受嘛否則的話你一直在這個司長你不能夠這樣都用這種錯誤的資訊來誤導大家啦接下來就先用委員然後鄭總召鄭總召講完了以後我們就請部長來回應一下好不好好來先用委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6519.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6546.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
其實我覺得剛才邱顯智委員講的其實有道理就是勞動部如果在就是說他們如果採用日韓的三番審議的這個模式的時候其實在引用數據的時候或者引用資料的時候應該要跟所有的委員說明清楚而不是說錯誤的就是說有錯誤的引用的部分因為畢竟我們不一定要完全的按照日韓的模式我們可以按照就是說如同柯總召所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6547.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6567.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6567.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6567.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
國民黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6588.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6592.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這是最重要的一個想法就是說你們當初提的三方審議的想法那我覺得是不是我們就是應該要在這個地方讓勞動部長他可以充分的表達意見以後然後我們盡速的把這一條審議完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6609.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6616.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
政總只要講完就請部長來回應好 謝謝我剛剛建民兄講的很有道理其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6619.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6647.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這審議委員會必須反映雙方的意見那達成共識那這個法 修法才有意義也才有它的功能所以我覺得偏向資方真的不好偏向勞方也不好所以我的具體建議是資方七位嘛 對不對那有國發位嘛 八位嘛那基本上勞動部他某程度他要配合這種政策所以他就九位 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6648.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6675.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那老方九位那另外就讓就讓這個三位專家學者去做仲裁這樣的設計都還會偏向之方啊因為會影響決策嘛所以勞動部去拚的時候需要能夠盡量拚比較周性的我相信這樣的話才能夠發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6678.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6680.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
因為真的啦 其他的條文都不太重要 這個條文最重要也看看 某程度顯示蔡政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6705.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6720.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
修最低工資法到底有沒有決心到底是不是打假球啊你如果那個有的在審議委員會都到時候會偏向資方那就不好啊沒菜沒一包啊整個都不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6721.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6726.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
主席 跟各位委員報告目前這個最低工資法審議因為它未來會有表決的問題就是說如果大家意見不一會有表決問題所以有表決的話這個整個為人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6743.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6763.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6763.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6764.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
二、國民黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6785.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6805.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
老方、資方還有一個第三方第三方就是公正方所以我們的設計就是現在本來就老方、資方都七個人所以沒有問題那當初的這個公正方因為我們原來是現在的基本公司審議辦法裡面其實公正方就是包括專家學者跟政府方 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6806.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6824.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那為什麼政府方要放到這裡面曾經在之前的基本工資審議辦法訂的時候也曾經考慮說那不然不要有政府方就是我們全部都是專家學者可是當時候勞方就反對他說不能沒有政府的角色因為尤其勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6825.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6844.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6844.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6862.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6862.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6863.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
《基本工資審議辦法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6885.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6914.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
在討論的時候他們也接受原有這樣的一個架構就勞資公正第三方所以才會說我們這裡面就是四名的專家學者再加三名的政府就勞動部經濟部國發會因為主要總體經濟的部分是這三個部位最重要的最了解的所以這個部分我們是跟大家做一個說明那如果說像邱委員這邊所主張的就是說如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6915.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6944.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6946.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6969.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
副總召、現在鄭總召我第一個,剛才部長講得很清楚我們要了解我們本來有基本工資法、審議委員會那未來就走上最低工資了換言之就是基本工資法、審議委員會就沒有了那基本工資法、審議委員會常常講的運作滿久,它的架構老是運作很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6970.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6998.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那是在這個有關於新規條狀的問題齁那蔡英文總統上來以後講了五次齁那我們這次是希望把租金工資立法完成以後然後這個基本工資審議完畢就沒有了齁那我們來看齁其實在立法院最早提的版本就是做到我右手邊的委員他在一百一十一年度的時候就提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6999.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7020.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
他提出來的時候後來也陸續有八個委員有八個版本但是這個八個版本吳益勤委員最早排審議在一百一十年五月十九號排審議的時候這行為下去了這行為有條啦那時候是應該是吳益勤還是林文周排的林文周排的林文周排的嘛齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7021.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7046.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那時候在衛安委員會,現在也在衛安委員會所以要排審,排審以後只五條,以後就審不下去了所以後來才有行政院院門進來希望說大家不要用懷疑的眼光或是互相抹黑說阿爹打腳球是何其神聖 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7048.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7063.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
原件的事情當然我們也不是指名立法啦我們也不是指名立法你不能按照那樣子按照日美韓國當然他講的是要參考不是說你全部來指名立法你不能按照交案例這不可能的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7064.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7089.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
各國民情都不一樣 法律要件都不一樣那 勞動條例都不一樣 相當複雜既然已經運作了這麼久 大家應該有充分的對這個機制了解與肯定那 也是把這一支工資列出來 這請 因為大家都在看嘛那 我趕快把基本工資審議委員錄製 那以上是我的看法好 總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7094.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7106.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
剛剛謝謝許部長的說明你說這三方的設計我贊成資方、勞方那另外一方是公正第三方 對不對政府機關會是公正第三方嗎?會嗎?不會看看我贊成勞方、資方各七個但是公正第三方看怎麼調 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7120.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7132.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
部長,我們不是第一天當立委,也不是做一輩子的工人員政府會是公正第三方?沒人相信啊,你相信我不相信啊政府會是公正第三方? |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7139.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7159.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
主席謝謝我想這個最低工資法我們現在在立法的過程其實真的是把我們過去基本工資審議辦法提升位階所以它不是這個工資的審查不會是第一次而且是他們已經運作多年那勞資雙方跟學者專家的組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7162.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7179.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
其實這個法則是執法提升到母法的這個位階所以它是運作已經算成熟因為每年大概最低工資的審查幾乎每年都在審議所以這幾年也不斷的有最低工資的一個提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7180.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7201.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以我想在這個運作上應該是很順啦就過去已經這麼久已經很順所以當行政院提出他的版本的時候他可能發現一個問題過去他都有部長擔任召集人然後後面的委員21人然後發現是雙數所以他在審查他們行政院的版本的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7201.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7202.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
主動把勞動部的代表拿掉（ |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7223.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7245.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7245.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7256.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7257.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7258.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
蕭麗芸議員蕭麗芸議員蕭麗芸議員蕭麗芸議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7276.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7301.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以那個時候如果多討論我覺得今天我們不需要在這裡好像因為時間很緊迫但是第二個院版提出來之後到現在也沒有多少天其實院裡面對於這個審議的機制如果套用過去的基本公司審議小組就不用用什麼法律位階提升然後強度如何如何所以是整個機制已經改變了包括有研究調查研究調查之後的資料要公告公告之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7302.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7326.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
涉及到最後決策部分還要再公告所以是不同制度不同鬼不是一樣東西照本宣科所以我們是期待在審議小組這件事情提升為審議委員會我剛剛已經講了最不計動用到投票的時候777這件事情還是社會比較能夠相信的就是說政府部門沒有夾這個什麼的意識來主導就是退到可能真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7328.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7346.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
更客觀的提供勞資跟公益三方所以我們才會想出一個讓它777的這個設計機制這個我相信部長你們應該也了解跟勞團討論大家也不會反對這個777這件事情是可以接受那勞動部、經濟部、國發會代表或部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7349.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7365.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
在裏面的角色其實我們如果透過會議神議委員會設置要點或設置的規範你們怎麼樣投票怎麼樣做一定的表決我覺得到沒有必要在這裏去爭執所以我覺得從善如流還是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7366.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7392.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
基本公司審議小組提升未接之後的委員會據審定審議資格的權限不要被架空不要被架空就要取信於社會那現在如果777這三方是用學者參加稱家為欺人是比較可以讓社會理解的那我覺得這個修法方向是值得大家來支持好不好好那趙院長怎麼樣院長我請瓜公子補充一下剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7395.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7422.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
剛剛這個部長也有講說事實上日韓基本上他沒有把這個政府方算入這個公益方你剛才也說事實上也是這樣嘛所以這個是事實上政府方就不會被算入做第三方架構的這個公益方那你說其他國家到底其他國家有哪一國是這樣做的因為其實你從頭到尾勞動部的主張都是在參考日本跟韓國嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7423.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7453.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7453.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7475.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
就是說其實就是非常簡單因為你本來你部長要當主席然後你設了一個經濟部跟代表經濟部代表跟國會的代表那我們的設計就是說你還加了一個勞動部的代表一人的話就是勞動部長跟勞動部的代表就兩人那再加上比較偏產業的經濟部跟國會那他也有兩人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7475.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7491.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那你其他的學者專家有七人對不對然後勞方代表、資方代表有七人那這樣的話剛好就是可以有一個等邊三角形的架構啊否則的話你現在這個就是說你的現在這個版本基本上我認為是獨步全球 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7492.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7513.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
第一個就是說你打破了本來的等邊三角形的關係嘛你學者專家只有四人嘛那也不可能認為說你的這一些這個所謂的政府機關的代表是公益的代表那就再加上說你就算你當主席好了你也只有一位嘛那經濟部的代表跟國發會的代表又有兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7514.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7528.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以你這個等於是說在日韓的機制裡面你又獨創了一個獨步全球的機制那你假設你要獨步全球的話你也要去告訴大家說你的正當性基礎何在看不出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7529.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7544.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以才會講說其實就是非常簡單我們的機制也設想到說這個是一個基數就是25人那勞動部長當主席然後有一個勞動代表有一個這一個經濟部跟國發會的代表那剩下就是等邊三角形 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7546.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7560.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個應該是一個比較能夠兼顧到說各方的利益的狀況而勞資雙方應該也可以來接受或者說你現在的這個狀況很明顯的一定是往產業這方面去傾斜 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7562.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7585.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
對啊,而且你在法制度上面你如果要不是說獨步全球不行如果你要真的獨步全球的話那你的說理的理由就要非常的充分而不是輕巧一句話說政府機關的代表就是工一代不是啊,這顯然不是你的研究也不是實際上你上網看一下這個日本的這個狀況當然也不是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7588.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7604.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那日本的狀況就是是不是會有官員當然會他開會的時候一大堆的官員都列席在這邊只是說就像你的研究報告說的政府的官員並沒有直接參與到這個裡面去算這個票數 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7605.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7621.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那這樣的話當然就是能夠讓整個呈現出來的各方的這個利益而且這勞資雙方本來就是一直在角力的這個狀況之下讓學者專家然後提出他的專業的看法而且他的學者專家這六位的學者專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7622.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7649.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
分別都有各種不同的這個專業包括經濟學的專業包括法學的專業包括勞動的這個專業等等之類的那這樣才能夠把你本來比較多元的意見把它呈現出來嘛那這樣也才能夠真的達到是說你的最低工資審議的時候這牽扯到多大的一個社會的一個變動跟一個利益所以你這個是一個很知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7649.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7674.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
提大的問題你如果說你的設計基本上是一個兄弟獨創的一個制度的時候那這個其實是非常非常危險的啦所以我真的是會覺得語重心長就是說你應該還是要固守在等邊三表情的情況之下只是說你勞動部長要當主席的情況之下能夠把產業跟這個勞動這方面都能夠這個予以兼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7676.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7678.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我先回應一下我剛剛所聽的所謂獨木全球只有日韓兩個制度是全球化的,全球化是日韓制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7705.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7717.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
他的制度是獨木全球沒有錯阿不是立法殖民地是他自己就是這樣主張阿他自己就是這樣主張你不能這樣講我就跟你講阿他從頭到尾他的主張就是這樣阿你講話說聽聽聽我叫國務院在查委這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7729.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7733.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我是跟你討論說他的說法 因為你沒有參與在委員會嗎?第一個事情就是說他在委員會的這個說法 這個說法就是錯誤的嘛!市長你自己講!市長你自己講! |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7751.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7751.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
民進黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7762.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7791.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
第一個我們來收人解釋啊什麼叫獨入全球他說我們和日韓不一樣都是獨入全球然後難道是日韓是全國都是日韓體制嗎不可能的事情嘛每一個國家都不一樣嘛而且喔你有這個這個可以辯證的你從方向來辯證你說這個非常危險我也可以說你這個非常你的設計非常危險對不對因為你怎麼樣你現在把這個學術專家分成七個喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7792.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7818.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
然後代表講 啊這個你找來的 你上面還有三個 你就請學因為這個運作很久了 這個是大家一體兩面的看法所有的正義 所有邏輯法律 都是可以辯證的沒有是 你講的還對所以沒有所謂獨立全球 只是不同於日韓而已我們立法不是說 他有去參考 你這樣參考你要抄他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7819.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7835.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我還在講我們不是立法殖民地每個國情都不一樣這是第一點第二點你所謂危險你所謂危險像中央清險你這樣設計也是危險的對不對大家要講清楚喔第三個我要講清楚那讓我講一下我還沒講完第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7840.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7854.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們這個機制已經應用很久,已經審議委員會然後再改,然後又少一個人但是請看第十二條,剛才賴相林委員談到,大家看第十二條十二條有研究小組,這個研究小組有這個設計,裡面有審議委員四個人,哪有新的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7862.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7885.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這樣一個機制,然後呢,他們每四個月要向沈議員提出最低工資只是對經濟及就業情況的影響報告,大家提出影響報告然後那沈議員開會前,他們三十天前要把資料送給沈議員,就是在研究小組所以我們有不同的機制設計,前期還要設計,這個是合體勝打因為這個成績要達到資格合體,合體要穩定當然要進去,你說國會代表是,就是無所後悔的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7892.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7903.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
都不代表黨府會後悔啊難道說我們把國家共青運放在那邊啊 大家在那後悔什麼 能夠表決掉 誰要負責這真的很慎重的事情 不過卻是委員一講 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7905.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7932.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
希望你聽人家講話當然你可以不同意我的意見但是你不要跟我講話以上是基本的看法為什麼我會說獨步全球是因為勞動部師長怎麼說他說我們是參考其他這竹子喔竹子一支一支我們是參考其他國家大概在處理這部分的話政府大概是屬於公益方的區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7934.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7957.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
三方代表的人數相等的部長怎麼說部長說公正方就會包括政府代表機關和學者專家代表那公益那這個政府代表跟學者專家就是代表公益方對不對你說你參考其他國家日本韓國我在跟你講說不是這樣嘛日本韓國人家的公益方都是專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7959.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7970.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這樣所以我才會說你的這個這個版本是獨步全球嘛那柯總召根本完全都沒有在看這個委員會的時候這個部長跟司長在幹嘛那你提出的這個都是錯誤的資訊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7973.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7992.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
以提出的是錯誤的資訊我才會說他的這個版本是獨步全球因為他的說法他是認為說他要學習日本跟韓國嘛對啊 什麼在那邊轉拜託 這個是救世問世欸那你現在這個事情的時候你要獨步全球的話你就是要 你的制度要有一個正當性基礎嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7993.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8020.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那你的正當性基礎在哪裡啊完全看不出來啊這才是一個非常大的問題嘛那我也已經幫你想好就是說你如果你要當主席那你要有國會代表、經濟部代表你就再加一個一個勞動部的代表那你就二比二那你可以讓你的這個勞方、資方跟專家學者都是七比七比七比七嘛那是不是就可以讓你的等邊三角形的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8021.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8049.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
你的制度也要有一個根據所在嘛那你不能是說你自己隨便輕巧一句講說啊這個就是政府方代表就是公正方代表你不要這樣互軌了事實上是不一樣事實上我要告訴你的就是說你的這個機制弄出來之後是獨步全球但是這個獨步全球的機制運作下去未來會不會有風險當然有風險因為比較法上面從來沒有一個機制像你這樣子啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8049.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8059.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
謝謝大家 因為這麼久沒有公示 所以編案保留請大家看第九條編條保留請看第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8062.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8081.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
第九條有什麼意見沒有意見我們就照有意見主席不好意思院長這個最低工資的這個年度調整的幅度那我們是認為說不得低於這個消費者物價指數年增率的漲幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8081.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8091.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那也不得低於前一年的最低工資啦這是當然是必然之例那其實跟院版的差異在於說院版他是認為是說應參採啦那應參採當然就是可以參採可以不參採嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8097.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8098.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
民進黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8113.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8134.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
假設年增率都已經百分之三了結果你最低工資才漲百分之一而已那這個到底意義何在那其實比較法上面也有把CPI年增率當成最低工資調漲的這個樓地板也就是說最低的標準的做法比如說像法國他就明確的將最低工資跟物價上漲的幅度相互的掛鉤 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8136.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8162.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那這當然就是說 這個政院版他雖然是有把CPI列為應參採的指標但是他基本上是沒有任何的這個法律上的效力的所以就這個部分的話我們認為這個應該是要可以有一個拘束力然後讓他真的能夠將這個最低工資的這個保障還有跟CPI可以相連結好 接下來謝議員委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8166.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8184.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
委員長與會的同仁我們其實也是贊成實例這樣子的看法其實我們認為說目前的條文裡面僅參裁CPI年增率那的確不足以保障最低工資基本勞工生活的權利因為畢竟我們知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8186.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8213.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
現在的CPI指數是逐月的上漲勞工生活的壓力非常大是不是我們最低工資是應該要參採應該要不得低於CPI的年增率而不是只是參採而已因為其實CPI也不會完全反映全部的生活費用的上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8214.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8215.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8232.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8257.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
最低工資法的核心就是所謂最後的年增幅度會怎麼定出來所以參財指標的因跟得當時大家的爭執就是說為什麼只有一個因作為參財的內容算是過於賭在以CPI為主的看法那它跟通膨也許有關但是它跟我們的生活的相關的成本之間的聯動有些反應不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8258.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8284.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那德參財部分勞動部是列了十項那我看各個委員的版本包括我們民眾黨的版本也都有多了一兩項不一樣的部分那所以如果是德參財的部分我覺得能夠再增加一些指標讓學者專家、勞方、資方有所在討論的時候或面對這個各個指標之間的聯動性是比較周延性的所以我覺得沒有必要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8285.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8313.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
既然只是得參財為什麼在項目上面只有那麼少之前有跟施長跟部長都溝通過所以我覺得看起來大家對於這個是第一個的落差第二個就是說要不要限定不得低於消費者物價指數年增率漲幅且不得低於全一年最低工資其實很多的版本也都有那勞動部跟施長說那難道年年漲上去這個怎麼有可能會不會有情勢變更經濟狀況不好的時候要有一些彈性空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8314.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8337.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以我是覺得說如果今天已經只有一項叫做因參採大家也了解你們的內容的話那得的部分我真的覺得希望可以多增加一些第二個部分是沒有公式沒有公式是大家對於這個基本工資審議辦法裡面目前是完全不曉得這麼多指標之後公式到底是二分之一的CPI加三分之一的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8339.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8366.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個平均年增率還是GDP的各種參財這個都沒有內容所以我是希望說我們剛剛有提了一個附帶的決議那能夠就滾動式來面對什麼是因參財跟得參財以及未來如果經濟情勢有一些不一樣的時候我們如何來修訂來提升這個最低工資作為保障最低生活收入跟勞工及其受扶養者的最低生活薪資的這個保障性 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8367.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8387.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這才是我想這個法最核心的部分所以我希望說這個院版第九條我的是在第十條我們黨團是在第十條這部分在成才的指標以及不得低於前一年最低工資這部分還是能夠入法來讓國人對這個法是有期待的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8390.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8417.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好,謝謝我首先要跟勞動部部長說明也跟所有的黨團代表說明我們的名稱叫最低工資法所謂最低工資法不是保障名目的最低工資不是保障他的名目啦名目沒有用啦要保障的是他的實質薪資他真正的購買力嘛這才有用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8418.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8447.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
不然物價一直上一直上漲前陣子央行總裁在參會也承認過去台灣的低物價所以CPI大概是第一大概一左右未來百分之二左右會是常態主計長也承認那你假設這個最低工資法保障他名目那沒有用啊一直物價一直漲一直漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8449.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8449.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
現在行政院第九條還有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8476.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8497.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
第九條最低工資行政院的版本最低工資的審議應參採消費者物價指數年增率擬定調整弧度這是第一項第二項裡面的第六款又講民生物價及生產者物價變動情況這兩個又有重複只是定義不一樣所以我是支持我們黨是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8501.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8509.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
每一年的條幅不得低於CPI為什麼CPI?就你實質購買力嘛像最近幾年都知道啊,負的啊你的薪資是負的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8515.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8515.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
一年賺一個資本額 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8543.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8553.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
甚至兩個資本額的這些上市商務公司 很多來低薪的那你看 股價帳的 老闆拿去股價帳的 老闆拿去那你一年賺一個資本額 也不願意拿錢出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8563.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8564.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
接下來 郭總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8593.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8613.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
主席各位同仁我想針對剛才幾位的發言那行政版本和其他在野黨版本不一樣的地方就是說因參財消費者物價只是年增率那在野黨版本是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8616.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8643.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
每年度的調整不得低於消費者物價指數和漲幅且不低於前年最低工資我想沒有人敢去往下調了這一點我想應該是很確定的就是要往上調吧大家也不要這樣疑慮至於賴相英委員所說的要公示你們本本也沒有提公示 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8644.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8645.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
租金、年增率等住宿成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8672.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8699.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那這樣委員就會扶養筆事實上講到租金的部分,民進黨也有租金補貼那現在我們在收手的稅、扣抵、特扣的部分也要把租金放進去所以有不同的政策工具都有在處理這部分我希望就是說,我相信勞動部也應該都有考慮清楚基本上當然我認為行政版本應該相當完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8703.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8730.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好來部長來主席還有跟各位委員報告一下第一個就是那個是不是會怕說會有低於前一年的薪資的這個狀況我想自有基本工資審議以來從來沒有發生這種情形從來沒有那未來最低工資法我想是讓它法律這個它的位階提升到法律更不會發生這種情形所以我認為這個大家可以不用擔心第二個是不是說要 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8731.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8731.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8748.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8748.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
國民黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8774.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8786.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
三點五十但是那一年的失業因為金融法要整個裁員失業的很多阿減班休息到多少二十三萬人那如果說你連一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8788.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8815.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為我們最低工資適用的是邊際勞工,最弱勢的勞工那他可能首先就可能會被裁員所以可能這個就是說他這個在基本工資最低工資的一個條幅的斟酌他還是要有一些彈性除了說CPI當然是關係到他的購買力但是整體的涉金情勢這個也是要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8816.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8830.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以這個部分就是說我們為什麼認為說還除了因為我們只有列一個CPI是因為勞資雙方有共識說他是因參財指標所以這個我們放進去但是其他的部分大家沒有共識說都要提升到因所以我們用得 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8831.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8852.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8852.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8875.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8875.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8902.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8904.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8930.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
恐怕你後面的人沒辦法答覆我的問題你這非常特殊特殊的情況你不能用極度極度非常特殊的情況這第一點第二點部長你是勞工部的部長你剛剛講的話應該是經濟部長講的話你要站在一千萬勞工的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8931.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8938.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
定這個最低工資法你剛剛講的話應該請經濟部長來講不應該是你的立場讓他定進去啊你不能用這種海嘯啊這種海嘯當然會發生啦以後也會發生啦只是說多久才會發生一次你用極為極端少數的案例去否決一個可行我何況你剛剛自己講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8961.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8974.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我們還是贊成你不定這個最低工資法你不能定的是一個名目你要保障一千萬勞工的實質購買力謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8980.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8981.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
副總裁謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9010.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9024.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那所以應該是從這個角度出發嘛因為你現在如果是說這個物價飛漲已經到百分之五了但是你的這個基本工資只有漲百分之一而已如果按照這樣的規準因為你應參採 可參採 可不可參採 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9027.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9045.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
到最後的話他的實質購買力是倒退的他要怎麼生活下去因為我們的角度應該是站在這樣的一個角度所以其實很清楚你看你第七條只願意接受說學者專家只有四個名額嚴重壓縮審議的專業性之後後面評估小組的報告又不願意在審議會前公開然後在審議的指標上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9055.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9057.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
只有訂定一個參採的指標啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9059.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9086.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
其實你現在如果把它跟這個CPI再連動起來的話它其實是一個落地板啊它不是說一定到多大的程度它只是一個最低的保障嘛所以這怎麼會說因為這樣的話會影響到最後它會被解雇等等之類的而且你的舉例基本上那都是在一個非常極端例外的一個情況之下現在要問的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9087.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9107.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
通膨如果是一個常態的話那通膨本來他就應該可以反映到說他的這個最低工資的這個條幅嘛那第二個就是說這個剛剛提到了基本工資不會調低嘛那是過往的這個審議的慣例但是法 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9108.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9127.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
的這個特性在哪裡法就是基於說不相信權力的擁有者我們不知道說未來的權力擁有者是誰所以相信大家也不會反對說我們把它明確入法然後讓台灣一千萬的勞工有一個基本的保障這相信大家應該不會反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9131.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9137.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我現在所在辯證的就是假說與說的問題啦我從假說的立場上來講我的觀點從與說的立場有與說的觀點但是最基本的剛才邱委員講了一句話潛意的擁有者他不敢濫用潛意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9159.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9176.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這事裡面還有研究小組,還有結合專家。那,包括剛剛鄧炳中所講的,老公婦絕對是他為一千萬勞工的潛意,以及他購買意義,這上面來遮掩。所以就是大家的角度、觀點不一樣,因為參財的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9180.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9195.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
若能夠定出公事我當然最好事實上不可能嘛這是不可能的事情所以我是覺得大家不要互相否定啦應該是比較寬廣的立場來看待這只是假設說從不能的角度來但最後的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9197.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9197.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
請院長講究材質吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9233.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9248.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
其實我們都知道如果在一個重大的世界的金融風暴的時候我們政府或者是立法部門都會提出相關因應的特別條例所以當許部長他以金融風暴來作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9249.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9254.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我當然也贊同說不一定要有一個實際的公式但是必須要把這個實際的就是說我們勞工的實際購買率能夠參著進去那才是我們定最低基本工資的一個基本的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9271.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9294.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以我覺得不應該要用金融風暴因為金融風暴就像COVID-19一樣我們都會用一個特別條例來協助國內的產業以及協助勞工那怎麼樣子在基本公司的時候表達就是說我們對於勞工的實質購買力的這樣子的一個保障那我覺得這才是我們在立法的時候必須要著重的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9296.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9319.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
委員長補充一下剛剛科長早講說權力的擁有者不會濫用權力當然不是這樣因為台灣的歷史有多少權力的擁有者濫用權力所以我們等一下才要去審政治檔案條例所以你就是要透過法去把這些權力的擁有者把他拘束住 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9320.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9320.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
二、研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9340.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9341.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我只要一分鐘就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9361.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9373.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
教員政治檔案法已經不是等下審已經大家簽名了你自己都簽了好啦那我要跟你講的就是政治檔案法是講轉型正義不要好那隱意不要失意啦那不一樣的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9375.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9388.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
是一樣的東西啊因為過去就是因為有太多的濫用權利嘛所以國民黨威權統治的時候去台灣有多少的濫用權利擁有者濫用權利導致破壞人民的狀況啊所以你不能這樣說嘛所以我們才說要用法去 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9399.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9415.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
民主時代也是要討論這個問題不然的話立法院就會被處理不然就不要立法院了嘛你就期待一個這是什麼樣的權威思想拜託我是真的建議那個柯總長你不要用這個權力的這個一再去重申齁因為這個建議我們的賴副總統跟蔡總統說最低工資要達三萬有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9423.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9445.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
沒有啊那為什麼漲不上去怎麼弄其實從這個經濟的成長率換算到現在其實該漲的搞不好超過三萬但過去就是沒有嘛一、沒有公視二、沒有辦法把參財指標公開透明所以今天才透過法案重生、重做那要講公視是不是公視請人幫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9446.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9464.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我請教就是說如果說我們今天沒有公視那把不能低於前一年這個CPI這件事情入法其實是一個替代公視的一個模組因為它是研究報告提出來的所以我覺得如果兩者都沒有其實是沒有辦法說服國人說我們會把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9465.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9484.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9484.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9507.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
只是後來很多人大家跟勞動部討論過後也確知他講的一些現實狀況所以我覺得要保一個基礎性第二個這件事情不是千萬勞工啊他是邊際勞工大概三百五十萬人左右那我覺得這一些是一個我們必須要在法制上讓他們感受到政府誠意不然那個三萬啊三萬幾都是用喊的是沒有用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9509.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9534.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我看部長你回一下如果大家還是沒有公私就保留就這樣我再一次說明一下我們CPI是一定要考量這個絕對是沒有問題而且我們把它定在因參採的一個指標現在只是說你是不是要把它定名說我的漲幅一定不能低於這個CPI我現在是認為說如果我們在一個法律把它定成這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9535.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9555.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9555.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9570.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
用最低工資的都是最邊際最弱勢的勞工他可能會影響到他的就業所以我才認為說我們不要定死他他是一個因參才指標但是還是要給審議委員有一些那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9571.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9571.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那就保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9595.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9601.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好 保留 好 謝謝大家 我們就看下一條 就是第12條好 第12條大家意見怎麼樣 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9607.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9632.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
院長,第十二條我的意見是說跟院版的重要的差異是在於說應該事前公開這個研究小組的報告那就是說這樣的一份研究報告當然你好不容易已經有一個這樣的資料然後把這個研究報告做出來那並且有一些調整建議等等之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9633.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9656.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那當然就是應該要事前要公開嘛那我們實在是完全無法理解就是說為什麼這樣的一個報告然後要選擇保密不能夠公布給社會大眾知道而且其實就是公開透明嘛你今天先做了一個報告之後公開給全國的這個勞工能夠了解然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9658.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9682.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
從這個數據那跟這樣的一個論理那可以了解到說到底啊我們究竟現在所面對的各項的參考包括剛剛提到的這個CPI也好或是說其他的參考的數據跟指標那就是應該要在這個會議召開前然後你就放在這個勞動部的官網然後報告公開透明公人民監督跟檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9690.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9706.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
副總長我想考慮到整個機制的設計研究小組他現在有一個研究小組六四嘛那這個研究小組做什麼事情他每四個月要提出一個研究報告而且審議小組要開會前三十天他要拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9707.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9725.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這坦白講就是在整個技術設計上研究小組的報告並不是最後的答案有點像專家默聊或是提供他們比較詳細的看法所以在整個審議小組還沒開以前你把研究小組這個報告拿出來會誤以為這個是終極答案這樣很麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9730.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9750.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那研究小組就照研究小組就好了嘛所以包括我們立法院也有一些什麼報告,但都不是專注於答案其實它只是一個專業目標,而且比較專業在處理所以差一點只是在說研究小組報告先提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9751.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9770.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那外面說 人家說 這個當然有很不同的看法嘛所以我是覺得比較慎重應該是照行政院版本啦你如果想要報告先拿出來坦白講對於整個不是很實際的也不好好 照行政院版本你有沒有意見有意見喔 這個沒辦法接受啦因為聽不出一個理由來 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9771.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9792.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
本來就是一個民主社會那你丟出一個研究報告說這樣就會就會有什麼樣的這個結果那你丟出來之後還是有很多的辯證或不同的意見我聽不出你在反對的理由不是啊你丟了一個報告為什麼一定要保密保密的理由是什麼我真的沒想到但是我確實沒有辦法理解你反對的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9793.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9810.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我尊重你的想法,但是我認為本來公開透明就是最基本的啊好,尊重招募、建立保留,那我們就保留好,請看下一條,就是第...第...我們有一個16條16之一啦美國的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9818.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9823.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
最低工資法應該要明文規定說這種廠商連最低工資法都不願意去遵守的情況之下那這個是一個最低的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9844.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9861.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那也能夠就是說這些違法的廠商應該要列入政府採購的這個黑名單裡面沒得立功他連最低工資法他都不願意遵守連最起碼的這個勞工的最低工資他都不願意給付的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9862.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9887.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
政府的採購還讓他來參加來做政府的生意所以我們是希望說給勞工最低工資以上的工作報酬應該是一個法律明文賦予雇主最起碼的義務那也是我們今天在這邊定這個最低工資法的真正的意義所在那對於這個沒有給勞工最低工資的這些企業的大老闆 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9888.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9888.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9918.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9921.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9938.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9939.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
法規範在談什麼 我們把法規範的範圍談清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9968.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9984.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
反正在談政府採購的時候,他就有政府採購法來而且政府採購法對委員長商齁,其實重大事本來就可以得停權的,就可以停權那採購法一零一一零一一二一零三都規範很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9985.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10000.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以我們在談這個不合最低工資和另外規範採購法是不一樣的東西本來那邊就規範得很清楚所以我是覺得我們要了解說那你這個法是要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10001.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10018.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那反正一公司,那你在這裡加這個以後,我可以加配合法規範下來所以我們要把我們現在這個邏輯先大家先談清楚基本上我是覺得這種財富法本來就規定很清楚,你把整個財富法都要規定尤其一零一是個停牌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10021.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10042.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好 那就委員長補充一下因為這個柯總召剛剛講說政府採購法101條這個103條等等有相關的規定當然有規定啊現在要討論的是說那最低工資法如果違反的話那你是不是要讓它列為這個政府採購的拒絕往來戶嘛因為你 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10043.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10064.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
你要讓我講啊那你政府採購法裡面當然有相當規定比如說他用藉用本人的名義或者是說擅自偷工減料等等之類的你不要讓他做政府的生意嘛那同樣的在這個地方其實其他三黨包括剛剛討論的其他三個黨團基本上是有共識的只有民進黨團跟勞動部沒有共識捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10067.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10083.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
有一些的法案基本上,像這樣的提案基本上是可以讓政府可以宣示說你真的要給這些企業一個訊息這個訊息就是非常簡單而且這也很基本的就是你要遵守最低工資法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10085.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10103.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這是一個很卑微的要求那一方面如果是說他連最低工資都不願意給這個勞工你一方面又讓他來投標政府的這個採購然後透過這個可以來賺政府的錢的話然後跟政府可以因此而獲益的話這是大家所不能夠接受的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10103.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10115.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以我也看不出來說這到底反對的理由是什麼啦那我坦白講今天如果說這是一個對這個勞工也是有幫助的法案的話我真的看不出來說為什麼要反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10119.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10119.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10144.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10168.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
剛剛談到柯總長講說那這個也要那個也要齁現在在政府採購法101條裡面其實只有對性別歧視、原住民身心障礙或弱視人權團體歧視這部分有入所謂的拒絕採購的權益啦嚴重違反政府採購法對啦但是那要情節重大對要情節重大所以過去我們地方政府只有把性別歧視的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10168.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10187.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
列轉做採購的這個直接資訊給公共工程採購委員會的小組資訊所以我說如果我們在這裡要套用101其實是比較難去直接引用應該是在我們的最低工資法裡面直接定法會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10193.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10216.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
對阿,只有14款是對於我剛剛講勞動裡面的性別平均沒有阿,你這樣假如說我們採購法是11款就可以頂的阿哪有,你這個包括冒用這些等等都不是勞動法違規嘛現在在講違反勞基法不行阿違反新民法有阿,違反救護法不行阿我是在講這個阿我講說,正如採購法裡面有規範得很清楚你最低工資法算是勞動法 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10219.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10235.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那你認為違反這個最低工資．沒有幾戶最低工資．算不算是違反勞動法令情節重大?你怎麼說?對啊,好,勞動部回答我不要叫你小姐啦請許副長現在只是說想要把它定清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10237.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10238.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我其實覺得可能要看個案的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10261.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10261.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
民進黨團提議． （國民黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10278.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10302.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10302.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10303.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
民進黨團提議． （民進黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10317.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10345.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
為什麼這個政府採購法因為畢竟政府採購法就是工程會的他們的權責為什麼它在法令的設計是這樣的一個條文他們一定有充分的考量所以這一題其實你們提案工程會的意見是認為說其實在原有的法規範已經有了他們認為不需要在這邊訂定但是你說個案的情況當然要具體去審酌情節重大我想我們都念法律也不是沒有辦法在這邊做 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10348.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10348.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
主席 各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10372.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10395.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
主席各位委員大家好那工程會這邊大概就採購法的機制做一個補充給各位委員做參考齁那採購法裡面大概在選商我分兩個階段在選商的階段呢在這些勞動有違反的這些情況他在選商又過評選他就可以做初步的一個篩選在評分體制裡面優先去避免齁我想這是第一個在選商那不管他用什麼樣的決標方式他進到了履約階段之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10396.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10419.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
其實就像剛剛部長所提的這個情節重大是在履約階段他違反我們在我們的契約範本裡面都寫得很清楚了他必須要符合勞動基準法的最低工資還有違反情節重大的時候他會走到終止契約然後會連結到101所以採購法本身他在他的停權是根據採購的公平合理每個法令有他的一個規範範圍所以並不是說今天違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10422.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10439.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
最低工資法就沒有法則而是說他在這邊有一個法則那在我們這邊會透過這樣一個聯動所以我們剛剛部長才會提到說採購法裡面的機制不管你在評選前不知道你在招商階段或是你在履歷階段我們有一些聯動可以帶到對情結重大的會帶到這個部分來讓他做一個聽權避免影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10441.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10460.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
就是說契約範本嘛 對不對透過契約範本去處理嘛那為什麼我們要把它定在這邊其實就非常清楚嘛契約範本的效率不如法律的明定 對不對那所以你如果是說你法律沒有去明定的情況之下範本的內容可能因為個案的情況去修改嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10461.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10484.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
其實你要做的其實就非常簡單大家也都認為說你連一個最低工資你連一個最低工資都不願意給付不然你剛才講的那不是一個理由本來他的契約範本裡面其實工程會的他裡面就有規定說你連最低工資都不願意給付那基本上你就會被認為是情節重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10484.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10503.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你不是最低工資的?兩萬多塊你都沒給人啊!對不對?哪怕是差一百塊他還是會認為說這是情節重招只是說他把它放在契約的規範的範本裡面啦那我們現在差異是在哪裡?你是不是可以把它放在這一個法律的規範裡面?合一!你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10506.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10527.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
你剛剛那個想法基本上是很替他著想嘛他沒有做政府的生意其實我們就是政府給他一個訊息就是你要照顧勞工就這麼清楚你如果沒有照顧勞工的話我不可能一邊讓你連最低工資都不給的情況之下我一邊還讓你做政府的生意就是這個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10529.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10547.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那至於他會不會倒那是他自己要考量的他可以去做其他的民間的生意但是我們的國家是一個示範性的作用我們的規範定下去就是某種程度也是釋放一個訊息嘛這個訊息就是你不要把這個最低工資法當塑膠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10548.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10575.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那它的規範裡面現在已經有一個契約範本現在差異只是在說你要不要把它定在法規範裡面讓它有一個法律效果那個法律效果就是它不能夠投標政府的這個工程標案好 因為這個沒有共識我們就也是保留好不好好 那我將今天的協商結論跟大家報告一下讓大家看如果要修改的話再提出來那我先唸一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10577.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10592.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
今天協商主題一、社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告並案審查行政院函請審議時代力量黨團委員江榮昌等17人委員徐志榮等25人 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10594.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10615.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
臺灣民眾黨黨團委員範玲等十七人（委員蔣萬恩等十八人（委員吳玉琴等十八人（委員林惠珠等十六人（委員廖國棟等十六人（委員楊瓊英等十八人（及委員張玉美等十六人（分別離去最低工資法草案案二、進戶惡毒有六案（ |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10616.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10633.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
委員施志峰等17人委員莊進成等21人委員李坤佐等19人委員賴若榮等16人委員劉建國等16人委員王美惠等24人分別離去最低工資法草案案協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10636.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10653.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
學商通過條文第13條如附件二、照行政院提案通過第一條、第三條、第四條、第五條、第十條、第十六條及第十七條三、不予採納的由委員吳裕勤等18人提案第11條四、保留送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10655.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10679.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
國務一．第七條．第九條．第十二條國務二．委員江永昌等十七人提案．第二十條．委員習志鴻等二十五人．委員林惠洲等十六人提案．第十五條．委員范寧等十七人．時代力量黨團提案．第十六條．委員蔣萬安等十八人．委員廖國棟等十六人．提案．第十七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10680.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10708.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十四條五、區域經照審查會審查結果通過六、條次及嚴肅條次授權醫事人員調整七、檢護扁案立法說明一份八、臺灣民眾黨黨團附帶決議一項保留送院會處理九、扁案院會進行處理時協商通過部分宣讀後均予以通過保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10709.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10719.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
部份均暫保留．保留部份院會進行處理前．由各黨團推派議員．依時代力量黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團．國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團順序倫理發言．免發言時間為三分鐘．發言完畢後．各該保留部份均不再發言．並依上開黨團順序進行各保留條文．黨團版本之處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10734.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10741.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
看有沒有意見 沒意見還有那個下個禮拜一就開始那個密集那個總預算協商兩點半了 兩點半了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10760.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10773.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我跟大家報告一下下禮拜一下午兩點半就開始進行預算總共預算都密集協商請各黨團播出保護時間來參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10784.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10798.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
還有一個還沒有協商完成的法案如果看大家的意見 各黨團都可以提出來我們可以調整時間 就只要大家提出來然後大家有公訴 我們去調整時間來加以協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10962.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10973.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好 那有關於協商結論我們就繼續簽署那今天的會議就到此告一段落謝謝大家 散會 |