| IVOD_ID |
153396 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153396 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-15-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-30T11:41:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-30T11:53:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba172ce89047cebd05cb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e913744a43b6bb286f025085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:41:13 - 11:53:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】） |
| gazette.lineno |
1113 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時41分）主席、各位委員。有請曾主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：有請曾主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Nga'ay ho。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
曾主任委員智勇：Nga'ay ho。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Masalu mali mali。原住民族要爭取原權，很重要的是要跨越政黨，而且要永不放棄。過去我當公務員時，不管是哪一個政黨執政，都要設法爭取、想辦法說服各部會，尤其是政務委員，要想辦法說服政務委員。我當了立委之後，當時原民會要送土海法、自治法，但有一位政務委員連審都不審就退回去！我跟高金素梅委員還有簡東明立委都在這裡大罵、批判那個政務委員。所以要跨越政黨、永不放棄啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
因為行政院院長新上任，你也是新上任，很重要的是原住民族基本法是根據憲法的規定制定，然後，還有很多法律還沒有通過，所以你的第一個任務就是要到行政院，跟行政院院長報告為什麼這些法案還沒有通過。很重要的是「行政院為審議、協調本法相關事項」，這是原住民族基本法第三條規定的──「應設置推動委員會。」所以這個推動委員會是要由行政院長召集、主持，這點非常、非常地重要。我過去擔任副主委的時候，就是先協調相關部會，然後把這個案子送到行政院院長所主持的這個會，而不是隨便提一份報告事項。我舉個例子，在原基法推動會第11次會議的報告事項中，南島民族論壇推動情形報告案跟原基法推動會所要協調的原基法未完成法案有什麼關係呢？所以不要亂提。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][2] |
我們一個一個來。原住民族基本法第四條規定「政府應依原住民族的意願」啊！是原住民族的意願，而不是政黨的意願啊！是原住民族的意願！所以要實行原住民族自治，這點法律定得很清楚。不要再說還要開會、還要聽取原住民族的意願、各機關的意見，已經花很多錢了！主委，從105年度每年編列預算，到113年度，為了原住民族自治的預算，總共已經編了3,639萬8,000元，多可惜啊！這個錢，已經開了無數次了，我當副處長的時候就開始了，我當企劃處處長就開始了，我這個還沒算，所以已經花了很多錢。大家都希望，是政府不希望，有些政黨不希望，所以這個部分我們要跨越政黨。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][3] |
陳水扁總統提過原住民族自治區法，馬英九總統提過原住民族自治法、原住民族自治暫行條例，說可以看怎麼樣去處理，當初原住民族自治法在99年有正式討論，開了三次審查，但是很可惜，三黨沒有共識。然後後來推了一個原住民族自治暫行條例，在馬英九執政的時候，在103年提出來，我們在內政委員會開會審查，然後朝野協商把名稱改為原住民族自治推動條例，很可惜，有的政黨不簽字。所以我們要去跨越政黨，要去說服各黨團，就像原住民族基本法，當初也不是所有的政黨都支持，作為原民會的主委，作為原民會的副主委，就要去溝通協調各黨團，讓他們瞭解，不要那麼怕，告訴他們不要怕。大家當初對原住民族基本法不是怕得要死嗎？本來還要復議，經過溝通協調，後來沒有復議，到現在又怎麼樣？都還是一樣要繼續支持，還有很多其實都是原則性的條文。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][4] |
我們看土海法，這是原住民族基本法第二十條授權制定土海法，所以現在你們要把它的名稱改為原住民族保留地管理利用條例是倒退的，蔡總統說的也是土海法啊，對不對？怎麼後來變成原住民族保留地管理利用條例，限縮了？我們再看土海法，96年11月26日第一次審查，我那時候當副主委，案子送到立法院，當時已經又要選舉了，案子太晚送了，前面溝通會議我開了10次，我當副主委召開10次會議，溝通協調相關的部會，然後送到院會之後，吳澤成政務委員負責召開會議，三天三夜完成土海法的審查，但是送到立法院已經屆期不連續了。97年2月15日陳水扁總統的最後任期，案子也送來了，但是後來又任期到了。104年、105年都有送土海法，但是都送得太晚，並不是不送。所以現在為什麼明明原住民族基本法第二十條授權定的是土海法，怎麼後來變成限縮在原住民保留地管理利用條例？所以不要輕易地去改，這個法律授權很清楚，站在你後面的那個處長，他都清楚，雅柏甦詠處長很清楚。但是政務官要設法去說服各部會，設法說服行政院院長，所以這個部分是要期勉曾主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][5] |
原住民族教育法也是根據憲法增修條文，原住民族學校法也是一樣，所以這個部分有很多的東西。像傳統領域，蔡總統說11月，是指105年11月會開始劃設公告原住民族傳統領域土地，也定了我們不是很滿意的原住民族土地部落範圍土地劃設辦法，但是很遺憾的就是，當初原民會公告兩個傳統領域，一個是烏來，一個是邵族的，邵族的被行政院撤銷了，剩下烏來，從107年實施到現在，有沒有窒礙難行？有沒有影響到其他的民族啊？沒有啊，沒有影響，完全沒有影響啊，對不對？傳統領域的公告，你看，最下面的那個數字，737個部落，我們現在只有泰雅族的烏來有，只有4個部落，只完成七百三十七分之四的部落的傳統領域，對不對？所以這個部分都是需要積極地協調去推動，都是我們爭取原住民的權益，永不放棄。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][6] |
像部落公法人，這是最容易做的，這是法律授權原民會訂部落公法人的設置辦法，你們的理由說部落有不同意見。如果它不要成立，就不要成立啊，沒有強制啊。曾主委，沒有強制。部落公法人的設置辦法，是原基法授權原民會擬訂的部落公法人設置辦法，公告就按照程序來，沒有共識的部落就不用成立啊，有什麼好怕的呢？對不對？所以有部落意見不同，這個部落就不用成立嘛。這個部分要好好地去檢視、去瞭解。我們的處長都很有經驗，副主委都很有經驗，而且我要請所有的處長、所有的副主委、所有的科長，要非常有信心地把所有的議題資料報告給主委，讓他能夠瞭解能夠增強他的信心，然後勇往直前地去推動。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][7] |
因為時間的關係，最後，都市原住民發展條例，如果行政院院會這幾天、這一兩個禮拜或這一個月之內，也沒有辦法的話，就尊重立法委員的版本，我們會審查，我們的召委會安排審查。這個部分過去夷將主委已經開了很多次會議，我剛剛在提案說明的時候有提，109年夷將主委承諾的，條文都有，你們也都有條文，對不對？那為什麼還沒有辦法？一定是有些部會有意見嘛，那就交給立法院來處理。所以這個部分我們不分黨派，只要是為了原住民族的權益，我們跨越政黨，永不放棄，爭取原住民的權益，謝謝。辛苦了。Sa'icelen。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
曾主任委員智勇：Sa'icelen。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，也謝謝主委答詢。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][1] |
繼續請莊瑞雄委員。莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][2] |
請伍麗華委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
148 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-15-21 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-30 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135501 |
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1135501_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財
團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員
會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都
會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例
草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華
Saidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案 |
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主席、各位委員。有請曾主委。有請曾主委。我好。我好。麻煩你。麻煩你。這個原住民族要爭取原權。很重要的要跨越政黨。 |
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39.929 |
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而且要永不放棄。過去我們我當這個公務員不管來個政黨執政要設法爭取想辦法去說服各部會尤其是政務委員要想辦法說服政務委員我當了立委之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
67.41 |
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當時人民會要送的土海法、自治法有一個政務委員連審都不審就退回去我跟高金素梅委員還有簡東明立委我們在這裡大罵、批判這個那個政務委員所以跨業政黨永不放棄好,因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
93.601 |
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118.934 |
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行政院院長新上任你也新上任很重要的原住民族基本法是根據憲法的規定來制定然後還有很多法律還沒有通過所以第一個任務就是要到行政院要跟行政院的院長做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
120.419 |
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為什麽這些法案還沒有通過所以很重要的行政院為審議協調本法相關事項這是原住民族基本法第三條規定的應設置推動委員會所以這個推動委員會是由行政院院長召集主持這非常非常的重要我過去擔任副主委的時候就是先協調相關的部會 |
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147.196 |
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然後把這個案送到行政院院長所主持的這個而不是隨便提一個報告事項我幾個例子哈研究法推動會第十一次會議報告事項南島民主論壇推動情形報告案就跟研究法推動會所要協調的研究法未完成的有什麼關係呢所以不要亂提好我們就一個一個來哈 |
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原住民族基本法第四條規定政府應依原住民族的意願是原住民族的意願而不是政黨的意願是原住民族的意願所以要實行原住民族自治這法律定得很清楚不要再說還要再去聽起原住民族的意願各機關的意見 |
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已經花很多錢了,從105年度每年編列預算到113年度,總共為了原住民族自治的預算,已經編了3639萬8千元,多可惜啊這個錢,已經開了無數次了。 |
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231.868 |
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252.462 |
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一百零五之前我當副處長的時候就開始了我當企劃處處長就開始了我這個還沒算所以就花了很多錢大家都希望是政府不希望有些政黨不希望所以這個部分我們要跨越政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
254.757 |
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282.519 |
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陳水扁總統提過原住民族自治法。馬英九總統提過原住民族自治法。原住民族自治暫行條例就可以把它做一個看怎麼樣去處理。這個很可惜的就是當初原住民族自治法在99年有正式討論開了三次審查但是很可惜沒有三黨沒有共識 |
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284.38 |
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然後後來推了一個《原住民族自治暫行條例》滿英九的時候103年提出來我們在內政委員會開會審查然後朝野協商把名稱改為《原住民族自治推動條例》很可惜有的政黨他不簽字所以我們要去跨越政黨要去說服各黨團就像《原住民族基本法》當初 |
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314.878 |
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也不是所有的政黨都支持啊作為原民會的主委作為原民會的副主委就要去溝通協調各黨團讓他們了解不要那麼怕告訴他不要怕大家當初對原住民主基本法不是怕得要什麼本來那時候還要復議呢經過溝通協調後來沒有復議到現在又怎麼樣有像 |
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344.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
358.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
等22人擬具:「都市原住民發展條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
371.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
386.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
等22人擬具:「都市原住民權利發展條例草案案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收條例草案件事宜及保留地及縣收 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
392.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
419.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
九十六年十一月二十六號第一次我那時候當副主委送到立法院當時已經又要選舉了太晚送了因為前面溝通我開了十次我召開我當副主委召開十次會議溝通協調相關的部會然後送到院會之後吳哲成政務委員負責召開三天三夜 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
420.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
430.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具《都市原住民發展條例草案》案。 »: 鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具《都市原住民發展條例草案》案。 »: 鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具《都市原住民發展條例草案》案。 »: |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
440.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
468.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以並不是說不送所以我們現在為什麼明明原住民族基本法20條授權定的是土海法怎麼後來變成限收在原住民保留地管理利用條例所以不要輕易的去改這個法律的授權的很清楚站在你後面的那個處長啊他都清楚啊要不使用處長很清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
470.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
486.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但是我們政務官要設法去說服各部會設法說服行政院院長所以這個部分是要避免這個曾主委那我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
488.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
502.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
原住民族教育法也是根據原住民族我們的憲法徵修條文原住民族學校法也是一樣所以這個部分有很多的東西像這個傳統領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
505.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
533.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
蔡總統說我們今年11月是指105年的11月我們會開始劃設公告原住民族傳統領域土地也定了這個雖然我們不是很滿意的原住民族土地部落防禦土地劃設辦法但是很遺憾的就是到現在當初人民會公告兩個傳統領域一個是烏來一個是少主的少主的被撤銷了行政院撤銷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
536.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
562.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
剩下污賴的。污賴實施到現在從107年到現在有沒有自愛難行的有沒有影響到其他的民族啊沒有啊所以要去說服啊說服相關的沒有沒有影響完全沒有影響啊對不對傳統意義的公告你看最下面的那個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
564.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
577.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
七百三十七個部落我們現在只有泰雅族的烏來就四個部落只完成七百三十七分之四的部落的傳統禮儀 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
580.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
605.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以這個部分都是需要這個積極的協調去推動都是我們爭取原住民的權益永不放棄像這個部落公法人這個是最容易這是法律授權嚴明會定部落公法人的設置辦法你們的理由說部落有不同意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
606.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
630.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他不要成立的就不用成立啊沒有強制啊曾主委沒有強制部落工法人的設置辦法這是延期法授權移民會你定了這個部落工法人的設置辦法你公告你按照程序來沒有共識的部落他就不用成立啊你什麼好怕的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
633.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
658.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所謂有部落意見不同,這個部落就不用成立嘛。 所以這個部落要好好地去檢視、去了解。我們的處長都很有經驗,副組委也都很有經驗。 而且我要請所有的處長、所有的副組委、所有的科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
659.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
687.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
要非常有信心的把所有的議題資料報告給主委讓他能夠了解能夠增強他的信心然後勇往直前的去推動這個部分我們因為時間的關係這個最後都市原住民發展條例如果行政院會這幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
688.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
717.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這一兩個禮拜或是這一個月之內如果也沒辦法的話就是說尊重立法委員的版本我們會開審查召集委員我們的召委員他會安排審查所以這個已經過去以降族委已經開了很多次會議我剛在提案說明的時候有提啊109年以降族委承諾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
719.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
741.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
等22人擬具:「都市原住民發展條例草案案案案件 條文都有,你們也都有條文啊,對不對?那為什麼還沒有辦法?一定是有些部會有意見嘛,那就交給立法院來處理。所以這個部分,我們共同的不分黨派,只要原住民族的權益跨越政黨,永不放棄,爭取原住民的權益。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
743.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
744.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具 |