| IVOD_ID |
15325 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15325 |
| 日期 |
2023-12-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2023113037 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
10 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2023-12-01T12:00:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2023-12-01T13:01:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:00:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc5cb3821fb3e5b972fbaae5e53d71923646d53a332764a535b58aaf7d2fa191855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2023-12-01T12:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、協商司法及法制委員會併案審查（一）行政院函請審議（二）委員劉世芳等24人（三）委員范雲等19人（四）委員林昶佐等16人（五）時代力量黨團分別擬具「政治檔案條例部分條文修正草案」（六）委員邱志偉等19人擬具「政治檔案條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」（七）委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「政治檔案條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、協商司法及法制委員會併案審查（一）行政院函請審議「國家機密保護法部分條文修正草案」案（二）委員江啟臣等19人擬具「國家機密保護法第十一條條文修正草案」案（三）委員湯蕙禎等18人擬具「國家機密保護法部分條文修正草案」案（四）委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「國家機密保護法部分條文修正草案」案（五）委員范雲等19人擬具「國家機密保護法第十二條及第三十九條之一條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:00:14 - 13:01:00 |
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2254.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
本日協商關於政治檔案條例部分條文修正草案以及國家機密保護法部分條文修正草案共計兩個主題稍後按協商通知排序依序進行協商在協商進行前我們先介紹一下道場的委員以及機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2256.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2279.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
現在我們邱顯智委員謝謝我們機關的代表等一下我念因為大家簽名不曉得我會誤會他的文字如果有念錯請 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2280.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2283.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
國發會副組委高仙貴副組委林秋晏局長副局長陳美惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2307.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2310.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
陳美蓉副局長陳淑美組長吐小青羊小文組長魏振卓科長張世察 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2339.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2364.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
行政院人權及轉型正義處的我們的處長賴俊兆是嗎賴俊兆處長還有我們的石璞副處長謝謝外交國防法務處我們的陳永志副處長謝謝另外袁芳俊也是副處長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2366.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2374.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
科長（內政部護政師簡潤視察（蘇志萌國防部文書檔案處林一昌處長（法務部陳明堂次長（廖江縣參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2396.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2417.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
廉政署沈鳳良副署長蔣家偉專門委員文化部人權管典言中心專家會主任陸委會陳鑽興專門委員國安局李專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2428.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2433.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
警政署李建廣專務委員張修碩張修碩移民署副組長江玲簡聰周 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2456.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2467.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
專門委員軍情局人事事劉祺祥主任國家安全維護處陳百利處長海巡署孫世亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2483.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2496.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
副組長228事件紀念基金會賴亮族處長司法院有四位法官有陳法官林法官劉法官蘇貞法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2512.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2515.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
教育部政風處陳培智處長陳佩君科長人事行政總處谷元珍專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2543.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2557.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
現在我們逐案進行協商那與會委員如果有修正動議或這個機關有建議的內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論首先我們進行第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2563.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2587.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
司法法制委員會併案審查（行政院函請審議（政治檔案條例部分條文修正草案等七案本案審查會前於11月13日審查完略審查情形第五條及第八條到第十條均保留其餘均有審查結果通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2592.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2618.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
另外,今日 院會再將委員賴品瑜等16人（提案進赴二讀與相關提案並按協商（協商時,請參閱協商條文對照表（審查報告及進赴二讀提案的關係文書（現在先請與會機關代表（針對保留條文一併提出說明（並請出席委員討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2621.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2622.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
請機關代表請國發會先提出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2635.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2663.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我想謝謝那個召委還有我們那個委員那我想上次在審查政治檔案條例裡面呢我們保留的條款最重要是有關於第五條在第五條裡面呢基本上有委員認為要保留的是就是因為我們在國密亞12條裡面我們核轉的這個國家機密的政治檔案如果有延長保密的必要應該報請 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2665.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2684.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
國安會同意的機制大家認為這個機制是否合宜那有沒有一些國外立法例或務實的做法那就這一條裡面呢我們基本上我們還是建議維持我們院審議版的這個條文那我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2685.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2705.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
理由是這樣子第一個就是說因為我們在這條裡面我們已經嚴格限制了延長保密的例外情形那僅限檔案內容涉及到有洩漏以後有嚴重危害到涉入情報人員還有危害到國家安全跟對外關係而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2706.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2708.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
有關於委員關心的有關於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2724.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2731.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
檔案內容是否符合延長保密的例外情形我們認為我們還是應該尊重國家安全局及國安會的專業的判斷而且我們觀察的相關的國外立法例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2741.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2769.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國外有關於這個轉型正義的檔案的保密機制的機制如果有正義的話大部分都是交由法院依舊計程序來辦理那我們在這一次的立法理由也有指出我們這個永久保密檔案入入經公佈以後個人或團體如果有申請應用該檔案保密的需要變更的部分可以依照國密法第十條的規定向核定機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2771.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2790.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
合定機密的機關提出申請解除機密（變更機密等的等級（或者是行政救濟（所以我們建議還是可以維持（我們送院版的這個保留條款（那其實有關於我們這次保留的第七條（ |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2792.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2819.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
八、九十條基本上就是因為它有涉及到我們剛剛講的第五條的相關的這些年限的計算方式所以呢我想如果我們如果對第五條大家其實沒有相關的意義的話那其他的八、九十條的保留條款的話應該也可以一併維持原來的我們行政院的提議以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2822.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2840.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 我們的邱委員有沒有好 謝謝主席那各部會的我們的這個同仁推動轉型正義最重要就是真相的這個復原那剛剛副主委有提到這個政治檔案條例的這個部分那因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2841.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2866.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
的版本就是認為說現行的政治檔案條例政府機關仍然經常透過這個例外的條款或以國家機密為由對重要的檔案資料進行遮掩和限制使用而且一保密就是50年甚至永久保密那這個當然是一個非讓這一個去還原 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2866.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2866.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
劉仲敬議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2889.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2909.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
要去還原威權統治時的歷史真相是難如登天那更不用說你這個最起碼的政治檔案條例都沒辦法解密都沒辦法去使用的這個狀況之下都還在遮掩跟限制使用情況之下更不用說去辨識和追究加害者的責任這個部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2910.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2925.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
掌權正義我們一直在強調就是說它是一個跟時間賽跑的工程因為現在很多的政治受難者基本上我們的長輩年紀都已經大了所以在這種情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2926.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2954.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
如果我們不趕快加速去進行的話恐怕到最後這個要去還原這個歷史真相的時候這個受害人已經對受害人來講已經沒有意義了那對於這一次行政院提出的版本就如同我在兩週前所說的實力黨團基本上是肯定的立場因為相較於之前所提出的版本顯然是完整許多而且許多實力黨團的這個版本提案的精神最後也都有被院版來採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2956.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2970.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那像這個剛剛提到的這一次協商的重點條文政治檔案條例第五條的規定那執意黨團與本條有要求說延長保密必要的政治檔案須經行政院長同意使得為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2971.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3000.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
也就是說這應該是延長保密是一個非常例外的情況之下應該由內閣的首長也就是說行政院長同意使得為之以提高政治可問責性的精神那這樣這個在院版裡面也可以看到說這樣的精神有被採納在內那院版現在要求延長保密必須有國家情報工作法主管機關的上級機關也就是說國安會的同意啦那相較於現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3001.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3018.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
現在的制度確實提高一定程度的政治可問責性那第二個就是說有關這個國家機密保護法的部分十二條也比法務部公告的版本更加強化了問責性明定超過60年的保密檔案變成只能由上級機關核定來延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3020.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3038.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那對此我們也一樣表達高度的肯定那總結來說因為院版非常積極的去回應我們和民間的這個訴求那對於這一次的政治檔案條例及國家機密保護法的修法秉持著政治檔案應該最大的開放最大開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3038.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3058.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這是原則最小限制就是說應該你最小限制的這樣的一個狀況實際黨團希望能夠盡速讓這兩部法律修法通過讓國家可以有效的去推動轉神正義那還給被害人一個真正的真相也應該更積極的追求真相的復原以上 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3060.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3087.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 謝謝我們邱顯哲委員所以我們現在開始看這個第五條我們就照行政院提案通過有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見好 謝謝那第八條邱委員有沒有意見我們照行政院提案通過沒有意見好 謝謝第九條有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3088.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3116.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
沒有意見好我們照行政院提案通過第十條沒有意見沒有好謝謝照行政院提案通過本案作協商結論如下一、第五條及第八條至第十條均照行政院提案通過二、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3121.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3139.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
接著進行第二案司法及法制委員會併案審查（行政院函請審議國家機密保護法部分條文修正草案等五案本案審查會前逾11月15日審查完均審查情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3142.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3144.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第十二條（第25條（第26條（第36條及徵定第39條之一均保留其餘均有審查結果通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3158.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3182.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
令今日院會再將委員賴品瑜等16人提案進覆二讀與相關提案並按協商協商時請參閱協商條文對照表、審查報告以及進覆二讀提案關係文書現在先請與會機關代表針對保留條文提出說明並請出席委員討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3187.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3206.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好的這個請我們法務部次長說明報告召集人我們次長剛接個電話我連政署署長召集人以及與會的委員還有各個機關代表連政署在這邊做一個說明就是針對上一次審查會保留的五個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3208.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3235.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那這五條文其中最關鍵的就是第十二條涉及國家安全情報來源或管道的國家機密原來的條文是這個是永久保密但是我們兼顧這個人民知的權利還國家安全將它修正為不得超過30年如果超過30年的時候還認為有保密必要的話必須要由原核定機關或者是報警上級機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3239.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3256.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
每次延長不能超過十年到六十年的時候如果還認為必須要保密必須要報請上級機關來做核定當時審查的時候還有委員的提案裡面比較有一些意見的地方就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3257.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3273.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
每次延長的期限我們原來的修正條文是不得逾十年那委員提案是有五年原則大概都是傾向五年這裡面要特別跟委員報告就是說第一個因為我們是考量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3275.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3292.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
併凡的這個辦理延長（併凡的這個辦理延長（會增加這個保一個洩密的一個風險（併凡的這個辦理延長（會增加這個保一個洩密的一個風險（併凡的這個辦理延長（所以我們認為說有召開過一些我們的說明會公聽會（所以我們認為說有召開過一些我們的說明會公聽會（各個相關單位都認為必須在10年是比較恰當的（所以我們認為說有召開過一些我們的說明會公聽會（各個相關單位都認為必須在10年是比較恰當的（另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3293.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3315.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
超過30年要報請這個核定的這個單位是哪個是原核定機關或上級機關呢還是說一定要指定到上級機關這裡面也做一個說明就是說有些這類的案子他當時在核定的時候他就是屬於三級機關他並不是原來的核定機關他 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3318.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3342.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
必須在要核定的時候他原則上還是要考量是不是他可以核定的一個權責這部分如果他可以核定的話他就由原核定機關來核定不行的話他還要報請上級機關那我們這個60年或者是這個狀況也是參考了美德日的立法例像德國還有日本他都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3343.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3370.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
不能超過30年如果超過30年可以到60年到60年的時候他如果要核定的話他像德國是報請聯邦的主管機關來核定那日本是報請這個內閣長官來核定就是說原則上都有參考這個外國立法律的一個機制做這樣子的一個修正希望能夠維持院版的一個修正那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3379.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3399.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
次長這邊要繼續說明是要全部一起講這個十二條我們是建議這樣那個十年應該五年的話太短了因為有些情緒的話而且會增加洩密的可能性是不是還維持行政院版那第十二十五條二十五條常委員利益是很好但是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3400.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3411.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
國家機密包括國家安全國家利益不是每一件跟國安法一樣都需要用專庭專法所以這一部分的話我們建議是不修正那26條的部分的話這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3417.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3431.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
委員的這個修正的部分委員會主席修正部分我們建議我們可能將來放在施行細則因為這個比較瑣碎的事情可能要隨時的修正我們以後會放在施行細則的做處理那36條的部分的話這個是我們建議維持行政院院版因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3443.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3465.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個部分的話是華者的部分這個我們是先用行政院版那增訂的39條之一我們也建議用行政院版因為湯委員你原來的修正裡面說基因核定延長沒有重新核定的話就是沒有延長所以就不需要再加這一段話所以這部分的話我們是建議維持行政院版以上報告好下面有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3476.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3480.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
《國家機密保護法》第十二條通過協商內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3499.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3528.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第二十五條我們也不予修正維持現行條文第二十六條我們照行政院提案通過第三十六條我們照行政院提案通過我們增訂的第三十九條之一照行政院提案通過本案作協商結論如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3532.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3555.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
協商結論．一．第十二條照協商內容通過．如復建．二．第25條不予修正．維持現行條文．三．第26條．第36條及徵定．第39條之一軍造行政院提案通過．四．其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3563.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3570.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
稍待議事人員將協商結論書面製作完成後（及交由委員簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3582.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3584.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
總是要做一個總結吧才有辦法往下走 |