| IVOD_ID |
15318 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15318 |
| 日期 |
2023-11-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2023112719 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
10 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2023-11-29T12:30:24+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2023-11-29T13:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:59:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc69f9bd0cb75d545d468d7f3d46fa58f646d53a332764a535185dd9187731472b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2023-11-29T13:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：併案協商一、司法及法制委員會併案審查（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」（二）委員許淑華等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂第一百六十條之一條文草案」（三）委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」（四）委員江永昌等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」；二、本院時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；三、司法及法制委員會報告審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案」案） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:30:24 - 13:30:00 |
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你切了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2086.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2113.983 |
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現在開始協商會議本日協商關於《刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案》以及《刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案》共計兩個主題稍後按協商通知排序依序進行協商協商進行前先介紹道場委員及機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2117.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2142.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
邱顯智委員司法院吳三隆秘書長行事廳李大任廳長法務部蔡碧仲政務次長檢察師簡美惠副司長教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2144.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2154.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
吳志偉專門委員衛生福利部呂念慈檢認跡證李秉璋心理健康師檢認跡證吳孟修還是吳孟珍 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2173.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2184.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
吳孟真、石耀署檢任記證、內政部警政署黃女恩、姚景月 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2200.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2204.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
現在逐案進行協商（協商時請參閱審查報告及進覆二讀提案關係文書（與會委員如有修正動議或機關有建議內容（請提出書面應發現場進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2221.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2244.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
首先進行主題一（司法及法制委員會併案審查（司法院、行政院函請審議《刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案》等事案審查會前於5月22日審查完均審查情形保留8條送院會處理其餘均由審查結果通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2249.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2275.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
另約會再將時代力量黨團提案進覆二讀與相關提案併案協商為求效率我們是不是先就保留條文進行討論如果各位如果我們協商代表對於審查會通過條文有意見待保留條文處理完畢後再接續進行處理請問委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2277.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2304.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
教委員有沒有意見?沒有意見我們先請與會計官代表針對這個協商條文一併說明並請我們的委員討論先請我們司法院這一部分是不是請我們刑事廳長前程都參與整個過程關於協商條文的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2305.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2330.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
是有逐條來做說明有關第161條160條之一有關策反的不能當作證據能力的部分那我們之前因為跟法務部之間有比較難達成共識那目前我們建議是不以修正那把這個擱置去而且在實務上在策反的證據能力的部分有留待實務來發展以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2334.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2349.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
法務部這邊有沒有意見有共識現在我們就針對這個增訂的我們是一併都說明過了對每一條都說明過了就一概說明我們不只這個我們總共有十個條文都一併說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2364.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2366.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案（三）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2389.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2395.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
司法院及行政院通過版本建議198-1有關於委任鑑定的部分,就在偵查中,檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2410.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2431.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
請求鑑定的部分（一（刑事訴訟法的鑑定方式相關鑑定人我們稱之為自然鑑定這個部分我們跟保護部原先有不同的意見目前已經有相當的共識我們把失選鑑定的部分一列到208條這部分就保留在偵查中讓事人可以請求檢討跟選任 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2436.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2453.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
選任鑑定人（三（委員請求方式依照163條之一等相關規定處理（三（委員在審理中也可以請求法院申請相關198條鑑定人這部分（三（委員這部分我們有達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2456.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2476.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
有關於198之二的部分我們在選任鑑定人之前我們要給被告或是辯護人有層次意見的機會這部分我們跟這是一個新增的條款我們跟法務部這邊也都有共識希望能通過我們行政院跟法務部之間的共同的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2478.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2492.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那至於198之3的部分那這是有關於時代力量黨團提出的版本那我們目前的想法是這樣子有關於鑑定物交付的方式那我們在刑事訴訟法203條之2都已經有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2497.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2521.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這部分是不是需要在另外一個條文來證明相關政務交付的連續性跟政務完整性的確保這部分我們建議這部分不用再特別因為你申請委任選任或者是檢察官辯護人來檢察官或者是法院來委託鑑定的時候有不同的處理那也不會因為鑑定物的不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2521.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2522.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
刑事訴訟法部 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2542.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2555.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就1984也是,那我們建議說不予增訂有關於鑑定物有可能因為鑑定的耗損這部分發現說鑑定物耗損應該怎麼終止那我們把相關的一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2557.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2580.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
相關的證物的交付 剛剛委任應該注意的事項我們建議是不用特別把它羅列出來這個是也不會因為委任鑑定因為它不是由法院來選任的那卻由法院來裁定命題續刑恐怕有委任或選任鑑定關係混淆不清的情形所以我們建議是不予增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2583.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2604.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
兩百零六條部分有關於鑑定報告書的內容及記載方式這部分我們在符合大伯法則的相關規定你要把說你的鑑定必須依照用言詞或書面報告的時候應該包括要記載什麼樣的項目包括鑑定人的專業能力是有助於事實的認定或鑑定是不是依照足夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2605.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2614.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
事實或資料為基礎或可靠的鑑定方法原則（四（委員江永昌等20人擬具 «可靠的鑑定方法原則（四（委員江永昌等20人擬具 «可靠的鑑定方法原則（四（委員江永昌等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2632.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2644.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
至於206之二的部分就是有關於駁回申請裁定的部駁回傳喚鑑定的部分的裁定可不可以抗告的問題那這部分行政院原先有請求要 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2645.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2671.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有建議要整列（但是我們目前已經達成共識（因為相關政經的調查必要性（這部分屬於程序上的裁定（訴訟程序上的裁定（在一百刑事訴訟法404條（是認為程序裁定是不可以抗告的（所以我們建議是不應該賦予（被申請的抗告權（這部分我們跟行政院這部分（也已經達成了有共識了（這部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2673.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2696.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
206條之二的部分就建議不予增訂208部分這部分有比較大的變革就是208條主要關的是機關鑑定的部分機關鑑定我們包括第二項的相關機關鑑定是由什麼人來擔任鑑定人那應該用書面的具載應該要書面具具名提出報告這部分以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2699.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2720.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
應該所遵循的相關的實施和鑑定的方法（跟報告它的證據能力的部分那這部分我們跟行政院版本來有很大的不同那目前我們有達成一個共識我們以行政院版的為基礎就我們這羅列的相關的有一些機關鑑定在什麼狀況之下讓機關鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2722.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2747.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
簽訂報告書在書面就有取得證據倫理例如說他當時的民事同意或是依法令有執掌鑑定鑑識的相關機關所實施的鑑定或是主管機關認證的機關或團體所做的鑑定這些機關本身就比較有公信力那相關的鑑定程序也比較嚴謹這部分我們就讓他書面報告就當他取得證據倫理當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2748.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2764.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果當事人對鑑定報告書認為有爭執或交互結論的必要（我們可以命鑑定人到法院來接受（用延遲的方式來做陳述（甚至可以做交互結論這是我們的那另外這一部分還有一個比較大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2765.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2773.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
辯隔原先所報告的198條之一的施選鑑定部分（以列到機關鑑定這邊來（放在208條的第五項這邊（讓當事人在審判中（可以直接委任機關、學校或團體（ |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2784.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2812.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
或是醫院做機關做鑑定或是審查他人的鑑定（並準用到198條之二的相關規定這部分我們就有做了施選鑑定的相關規定另外他的鑑定物交付的方式我們也在條文中很明列可以準用163條到163條之二的規定怎樣申請請求法院怎麼交付就回到203條相關的規定來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2817.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2821.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這部分是我們跟行政院法務部這邊討論很久有達到共識的部分再次做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2831.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2851.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後一條就是211條之一的部分211條是新增列的條文這部分有關於法律鑑定的部分我們行政院版跟我們本來有不同的看法跟司法院版有不同的看法在於說法律鑑定到底鑑定人要不要拒絕的問題我們後來討論的結果我們認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2855.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2867.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
法律意見也許採取不同的看法（但是有一種意見的陳述（也許我們就接受法務部的看法（認為說就排除《刑訴202條》的一些相關的規定（就不需要做拒絕以上是那還有一個施行法的部分（因為剛剛條文跟有一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2883.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2904.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝我們李廳長請教我們法務部我們蔡司長有沒有補充沒有補充完全如廳長剛剛所完成的陳述我們跟司法院經過非常多次的協商有達成剛廳長所陳述的這些共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2905.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2923.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 那我們現在就開始從這個增訂第160條之一我們這個是不予增訂有沒有意見 邱委員這個部分我們的版本是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2924.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2941.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
測謊的結果無證據能力我基本上我也是認為說測謊的結果因為它這個爭議真的是非常大我基本上也是會認為說應該要排除它的證據能力不過因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2944.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2970.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
司法院跟法務部現在是認為說先不予增訂嘛那基本上我們也是支持啦那主要就是說後面這個失選鑑定的這個部分如果能夠趕快來通過的話對台灣的這個刑事訴訟的這個實務會有很長大這個就是說會有一個非常大的進步就這部分所以也同意說不予增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2971.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2992.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 我們這條不予增訂那第198條是不是照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見那個 邱委員 沒有意見沒有意見好增訂第198條之一也是照協商內容通過 有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2994.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2997.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
徵定198條之二徵定198條之三徵定198條之四徵定198條之四 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3026.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3042.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
沒有沒有第206條照司法院假案司法院版通過有沒有意見沒有意見好沒有意見增訂第206條之二不予增訂有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3048.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3050.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第208條照協商內容通過有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3059.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3083.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個部分就是說是用主託主託這個機關啦齁主託應該是說他的這個這個版本就是主託這個機關去做處理然後再來就是說他會第五項啦齁OK |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3087.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3091.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3109.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3121.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
現在進行主題二協商刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案這個審查會前於5月22日審查完略審查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3126.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3154.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是增訂第七條之十五保留送院會處理並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商請我們與會的機關代表說明有關本條是因為刑事訴訟法剛剛鑑定章的一些相關的調整有關施行法的部分請求增列第七條之十五的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3156.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3180.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
原先我們原先的草案是我就直接講原先草案是請求在公布後公布實施之日6個月執行那我們建議說這次的鑑定的制度有重大的變革對現行司法實務的鑑定運作會產生重大的衝擊那我們為了讓審檢變還有鑑定人各方面有相關的配套的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3181.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3184.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
除了說可立即實施的條文之外（有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3187.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3211.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
206條第四項、第五項、208條、211條之一這些相關的規定因為涉及到所謂的相關機關的法令的整備的問題那是不是建議可以從公佈後一年內一年實施這公佈後一年實行這是給予一些相關的緩衝期間那以起始心智能運作順暢以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3216.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3239.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
法務部這邊有沒有意見跟司法院的意見一樣好那邱委員有沒有意見是說這個有需要這麼久嗎就是說他為什麼需要因為這涉及到是說你可以讓主要是說可以讓當事人可以自己選任鑑定人嘛那有需要有需要說要一年的時間去做給予這個緩衝期 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3242.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3256.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這跟委員報告一下我會請求給予緩衝期的主要原因是因為我們在208條的第三項增列了許多相關的所謂的機關鑑定機關鑑定部分我們有強調是要具有 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3257.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3261.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
依法令具有執掌鑑定鑑識檢驗的業務的機關才可實施這些機關如果有的話就它的書面報告書面的鑑定書就會有證據原則上就有證據能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3273.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3274.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
金主管機關認證的機關或團體所實施的鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3294.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3316.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以我們要讓他的相關鑑定報告書再符合208條相關的規定讓他當然取得證據人力的話他勢必要做一些相關的法令的一些調整包括組織法和作用法的調整讓他變成他具有相關的法令職權來做這個相關的委託鑑定或是受任鑑定這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3317.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3338.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以我們建議是不是應該給其他應該在這機關根據法務部的盤點相當的龐大因為它這個不是只有單一機關而已包括尿液鑑定也有衛護部相關認證的機構或集團體所以我們希望說這個部分應該讓它的法令跟制度還得完備那另外包括鑑定物現在不是單純交付機關那可能還有其他的團體不是我們現在經常用的幾個政府機關的鑑定單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3347.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3347.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
刑事訴訟法部 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3366.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3367.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
三（委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3390.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3391.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
本日作協商結論如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3416.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3444.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
一、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等五案一、增訂第160條之一、第198條之三、第198條之四及第206條之二均不予增訂第二、第198條及增訂第198條之二均照司法院、行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3446.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3472.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
增訂第一百九十八條之一（二（二百零八條及增訂第二百十一條之一（均照協商內容通過如附件一（四（二百零六條照司法院（行政院提案之假案司法院版通過（五（其餘均照審查會審查結果通過（ |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3474.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3502.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第二（行事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案（增訂第七條之十五（照協商內容通過（並將條次修正為第七條之十九（如附件二稍待議事人員將協商結論書面製作完成後（即交由委員簽名謝謝各位散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3505.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3515.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案（三）委員江永昌等20人擬具 |