| IVOD_ID |
152071 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152071 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-02T11:08:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-02T11:19:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db10a995a89069d4513d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a7177a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蘇清泉 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:08:54 - 11:19:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。
三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。
【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】） |
| gazette.lineno |
621 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
蘇委員清泉：（11時9分）我請薛部長、還有石崇良署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請薛部長、石署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
薛部長瑞元：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
石署長崇良：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
蘇委員清泉：部長，我和你很熟，所以大家都很了解，我問你，為什麼臺灣所有的服務業只有醫療在做總額制？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
薛部長瑞元：能為什麼？就因為過去就是這樣，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
蘇委員清泉：過去就是這樣，但法是可以修改的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
薛部長瑞元：當然是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
蘇委員清泉：台電怎麼不能用總額？台電可以用總額啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
薛部長瑞元：沒關係啦，如果他們要用就用啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
蘇委員清泉：隨便你漲、亂花錢，然後一直漲電價。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
薛部長瑞元：委員，你可以提案。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
蘇委員清泉：電業法不來修一下也不行了，總額啊，就比照醫療，哪有說你剛剛講的薪水，薪水沒人在打折的，薪水要怎麼打折？打折就會跟你翻了，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
薛部長瑞元：對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我今天早上才向署長complain而已，我們那邊今年調薪，調一調要再多出六千多萬元的支出，但人也不一定會留下來耶，所以現在的……你看這個是健保的支付，這個跟美國比、跟新加坡比這都是……，你看我們是臺幣，我看過美國人來臺灣看急診，看了之後我們跟他說要繳300元的臺幣，他說他以為要繳300元的美金，所以我們就是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][1] |
請看下一張圖卡，我們先講醫療暴力，我在第8屆的時候，劉建國委員和大家也很認真，所以我們第8屆修了醫療法，捍衛醫護人員的執業環境安全，我們也做到了喔，所以讓部長了解，那個時候就已經修改，王育敏也有。前天屏東榮總發生暴力事件，我第一時間跟院長吳東霖了解詳細情況，事實上聚眾、抬棺這些已經沒有了、很少，偶爾在診間發生的我們也希望能夠降到最低，而且打人者說是有美國國籍，是雙重國籍，我們也全力支持，部長你應該也瞭解這件事吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
薛部長瑞元：對，這當然還是必須要依法去做處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
蘇委員清泉：地檢署好像也出面了。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
薛部長瑞元：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我們在這裡要肯定醫護人員，尤其第一線急重症的急診人員，我們再次跟他們肯定，也捍衛他們的權益，我們一定會捍衛各位的權益。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][1] |
這一屆我們要來強調的是要合理的報酬，因為今天會提這個法也是到該要處理的時候了，我剛剛跟劉建國聊，劉建國說我們都做這麼久了，現在部長能做的事情就像李明亮那樣，弄一弄就可以，這樣全世界、全臺灣都會感謝你。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
薛部長瑞元：我來不及啦！來不及調健保費。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
蘇委員清泉：3位總統候選人都是一樣的訴求，現在你賴清德當選了，那你就要面對，而你就放著擺爛，世間哪有這種事情？你說每樣都要改、每樣都要喬的好，那就明年了！所以今天這個法你先給它通過了，過了之後其他要怎麼配套，等送出委員會我們再來協商，這我也同意，保險司也說大家一起協商，黃委員下禮拜要舉辦公聽會，我也很贊成，不然他們辦一辦之後我們再來辦也沒關係，我們先讓它送出委員會，我們再好好來協商，如果沒有一個壓力，大家還在那裡觀望，今年不解決，這個事情已經到了非解決不可，8個公協會全部都跑出來挺了，所以這個也不是部長的問題，但是部長現在有一個很好的，剩十幾天，你如果做下去，醫界會感謝你20年。所以部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
薛部長瑞元：醫界感謝我20年，而我會被民眾譙50年。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
蘇委員清泉：不會啦！我跟你說不會啦，現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
薛部長瑞元：這不是會或不會的問題，這是現在可看到的，如果只是這個法案通過但沒有其他配套的話，健保可能2年就倒了。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
蘇委員清泉：健保永遠都不會倒啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
薛部長瑞元：那是你在講啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
蘇委員清泉：所有執政當總統的人絕對不可以讓健保倒。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
薛部長瑞元：不然就是石崇良變成全臺灣最大的債務人，一天到晚什麼事都不用做，只要忙著跑3點半就好。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
蘇委員清泉：那是不可能的事情啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
薛部長瑞元：怎麼不可能？以前就是這樣啊…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
蘇委員清泉：那絕對有辦法…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
薛部長瑞元：你又不是不知道，對不對？健保剛開辦還沒有實施總額的時候就是這樣啊，朱澤民那時候都是在跑3點半，這件事你知道的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
蘇委員清泉：現在政府的投資不足，本來政府應該要投資34%、35%，結果只有32%、33%，投資不足，現在說要把它拉到38%，38%就差好幾百億了，對不對？百姓的負擔…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
薛部長瑞元：但是要有錢嘛，錢要有來源嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
蘇委員清泉：那是主計總處的事情，跟你有什麼關係？那是經發會的事情，你…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
薛部長瑞元：如果像委員這樣說，那我就很好做了！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
蘇委員清泉：有魄力一點，我看你今天講話…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
薛部長瑞元：不是，這不是魄力的問題，如果我把預算陳報到主計總處，而主計總處不給我就無效嘛，本來就是這樣啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我跟你談總額目標，每年都結算，你一向是做到100元，結果一直做、做到130、140、120時就把你切一切，只付給你7毛、6毛、5毛、8毛，那就是每年要結算。我們去德國看，德國也做總額，結果它是用總額目標制，石署長，德國是用總額目標制，他們是今年不夠的經費就從明年的挪進來，所以是卯吃寅糧。不管啦，他們都是這樣挪挪挪，到現在他們幾乎是廢止總額了，他們的總額也沒在做了，這樣他們的醫療有失控嗎？沒有嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
薛部長瑞元：你怎麼知道沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我去看了好幾次啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
薛部長瑞元：那是因為時間還沒到。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
蘇委員清泉：時間還沒到？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
薛部長瑞元：對呀！ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
蘇委員清泉：談到這個總額，你們跟社會說我們是要把這個總額廢掉，我沒有喔，我是說要做目標制。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
薛部長瑞元：如果超過目標的時候，委員的想法是要打幾折？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
蘇委員清泉：超過目標的時候，就像剛才石署長跟我說的，超過目標我們就給他審、審、審，然後用公務預算，每年都超徵收那麼多錢，就撥補一些…… |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
薛部長瑞元：每年都能保證一定會有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
蘇委員清泉：政府將該出的38%投資拿出來，在健保的100%裡面，只要政府要出的38%到位了，我跟你講，你就有空間調那個費率了，這是坦白話，可以啦，是做得到的。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
薛部長瑞元：不要那麼樂觀啦，經濟是起起伏伏的。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我們的全民健保是臺灣唯一最大的安定力量，就是這一些醫界，包括你、包括石署長，石署長是做急診的，大家這樣省所省下來的，現在年輕人跟我們以前的想法不一樣，以前醫師來我都會跟他講我們的目標、我們在偏遠地區要怎麼樣怎麼樣，包括理想都講；現在我連講都不講了，現在一來就講待遇、講休假、講稅金，就這樣而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
薛部長瑞元：這理所當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
蘇委員清泉：事實就是這樣嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
薛部長瑞元：是，這理所當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
蘇委員清泉：護理人員來，回去哭一哭，爸爸媽媽就說：不要去、不要去、不要做了。因為小孩生得少，都只生1個，最多2個，所以畢業生跟到職率那麼低。現在住院的病人你不要想說他們會爛住院，不可能，現在沒有這樣，現在病人住院的部分負擔愈來愈高，所以現在住院是我們認為他需要住院、他自己也覺得需要住院，那些人才會住院耶，結果卻是住在急診室，在急診室等，三十幾個、四十幾個、五十幾個整天都在那兒待床，我們這些立法委員每天都在替他們追病床，追到非常辛苦，沒護士就關病房、沒護士就關病房，前陣子連檢驗師也缺、放射師也缺，部長也說放射師接下來也會缺，這個是要勇敢面對的時候啦，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
薛部長瑞元：對啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
蘇委員清泉：不要在那邊繼續擺爛。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
薛部長瑞元：對，這是沒錯，但是要整體性去考量，因為如果只單一處理要1點1元這件事的話，可能那些問題還沒解決就先倒了，要考慮到這一點，我現在很語重心長的提出來，如果沒有全盤的、也不用說要百分之一百做到perfect，但是有幾個重點必須要去堅守，這些東西你如果沒堅守，而只要去衝這一項，那就倒了，就會來不及做剛才委員說的那些改革，來不及做健保就維持不下去了。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
蘇委員清泉：好，答詢完畢之後我希望我們這個案子能送出委員會，然後我們來好好討論。以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
薛部長瑞元：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][1] |
接下來請林淑芬委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
242 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-26-14 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
167 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-02 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133901 |
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1133901_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清
泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康
保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案 |
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1133901_00003 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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我請部長,還有石崇亮,石長。好,部長、蘇長請。委員好。委員好。吳廷,我都和你很熟,所以大家都很了解。我問你,為什麼台灣所有的服務業只有醫療在做總合資? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
49.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
啊,是啊,就因為過去就是這樣,所以...過去是這樣?發得,發得到收價的啊?當然是啊!台電怎麼不可以用總額?蛤?台、台電可以用總額啊!不要緊啊,你啊,你用就用啊!隨便你漲,亂花錢,然後,然後,漲變這樣!喂,喂,喂,你可以提案! |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
56.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
80.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
84.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
122.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
來,我們先講醫療暴力啦。我在第八屆的時候,劉建國委員大家也很認真。所以我們第八屆修了醫療法,看護醫護人員的職業環境安全,我們有做到囉。所以跟部長讓你了解。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
142.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
adequ時候就已經修改王育敏也有那昨天全天我們屏東榮總發生暴力事件暴力事件我也第一時間跟院長跟吳東麟跟他瞭解詳細情況事實上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
173.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
173.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
196.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
209.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
也是要到該要處理的時候了。我剛才跟劉建國說,劉建國說,我們都做了這麼久,現在不一定可以做的事情,就像李明亮這樣衝衝的做我們。這樣你就全世界、全台灣都要感謝你。我不會付啦。不會付那條健保費。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
220.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
246.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
總統三個候選人都同樣的訴求,現在你賴清德你當選了,你就要面對那種要幫你耍,洗肝腦就有事了。你要說每行都要蓋每行都要照顧好自己,不用怕啦。所以你今天這個發生過,過了你其他要怎麼配套,出委員會,我們來跟你合作,我也同意啦。我們保險司也說過,大家一起合作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
273.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
274.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
281.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
incarcerate the president of the United States of America. |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
296.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
307.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
不是要買的問題,這是現況。如果只是這個法案過,沒有其他配套的原因,有可能兩黨擬補就倒了。擬補英文都不會倒啦。擬補所有執政的人、做總統的人,他絕對不會有擬補意。若不就是石崇良並是全台灣最大的債務人。他結幹那事情都不用做,自己去做三年罷就好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
324.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
� |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
341.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
368.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
370.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
370.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們去德國看,德國也做總額。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
398.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
419.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
則果他是用總和目標制阿,史書長。德國是用總和目標制喔。所以呢,因他沒夠的經費,他運賣你挪進來。所以是卯吃遠糧。不管啦,他們都是這樣,都挪、挪、挪。到現在他們幾乎是廢紙總和的嘛。他們的總和也沒... |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
420.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
446.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
� |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
446.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
450.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
477.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
492.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
essee 啦。做得到啦。然後我們的全民健保是台灣唯一台灣最大的安定力量。就是這一些醫界,包括你,包括石署長,大家署長做急診的,大家這樣,這樣繞起來的啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
496.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
510.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
netes 年輕人跟我們以前想法不一樣以前醫師來我都會跟他講我們的目標我們在偏遠地區要怎麼樣怎麼樣理想都講現在我連講都不講了現在一來就講代議、講休假、講稅金 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
514.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
526.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
啊這理所當然。啊事實是這樣嘛。是。啊這理所當然。啊事實這樣嘛。是。啊這理所當然。啊事實這樣嘛。是。啊這理所當然。啊事實這樣嘛。是。啊這理所當然。啊事實這樣嘛。是。啊這理所當然。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事實這樣嘛。啊事這樣嘛。啊事這樣嘛。啊事這樣嘛。啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
526.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
554.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以這...畢業生跟道德力那麼低。然後現在在住院的病人齁,你不要想說他們會爛住院,不可能,現在沒有。現在病人要住院的部分,他們也在管啦。所以他現在要住院,他是要認為,我們認為他要住院,他也自己覺得他要住院的,欸,那才會住呢。啊結果住在急診室,急診室啊,三十五個月、四十五個月、五十個月,每天要帶床。我們知道在外國委員,每天就在體驗很長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
556.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
564.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
三、國民黨黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案案件 、三、國民黨黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案件 、 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
570.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
576.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
要勇敢面對這時候啦。對啦。對啦。但是要整體線去考量,因為你只處理像我這樣單一的,只要放一點議員的話,可能你那問題要來解決就先倒了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
590.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
613.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
要考慮的這一點,我現在在很語重心長地提出來就是這個樣子。你沒有說全盤的,不用說百分之百做得perfect,但是有幾個重點必須要去顧不住的。這些東西你如果顧不住,只要再衝一下就到了。賣負你做那些,剛才委員在顧那些,那些改革賣負人家做,你檢保的位置就不會落眼了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
620.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
625.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。 |