| IVOD_ID |
151745 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151745 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-25T11:05:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-25T11:16:12+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15eba87d9a0655ad13e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed073bacbc480bcfdff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
柯建銘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:05:00 - 11:16:12 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查
（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。
二、繼續審查
（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查
（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。
四、
（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。
（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】） |
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柯委員建銘：（11時5分）主席、各位委員同仁。剛才吳思瑤委員講了一句很重要的話，臺灣是華人世界裡面民主價值的典範，這是我們國會的驕傲，但是我們都知道整個國會改革是本會期重中之重的法案，整個過程經過兩個禮拜、4次會議，今天委員會能夠開多久還在未定之天，因為傅總召終於出現了，也許到質詢結束以後，因為接下去有比較深水區的所謂國會改革版本，又有職權行使法，所以今天我要在這裡講，禮拜一那天我們開完會以後，直接沒收了委員會，換言之，整個過程來看，國民黨所有作為，上禮拜一他們當召委的時候，直接碾壓過去，這種會當然我們會提散會動議來阻卻他胡作非為。到了禮拜四我們審的時候，換他提散會動議，他是不讓你開，就是不讓我們的版本來開會；這禮拜一也是一樣，這禮拜是比較不具敏感性的另外三法，他直接給你散會動議，換言之就是沒收委員會，所以當天我們記者會的標語叫什麼？國會輓歌，藍白聯手沒收委員會。這是非常嚴重的事情啊！以後藍白過半的時候，立法院任何委員會、任何專案報告，只要藍白認為對他們不利的話，他馬上給你提散會動議，國會什麼時候可以走到今天呢？蔣介石在世也不敢如此。過去國民黨也曾經國會多數過，我們首次執政的時候，它也不敢如此，三十年來，這一刻是最荒謬的一刻。 |
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禮拜二程序委員會所提出的法案，對於國會議員參加秘密會議要有一些規範，乃至於行政首長等等到大陸去要有規範，程序委員會給你完全封殺，讓臺灣的民主倒退三十年。從我進來的時候，國民黨就是多數，我們大部分時間是在反對黨，於是乎程序委員會一直擋案，光馬英九執政那8年，總共擋了一萬多個案子，這很驚悚吧？今天重為如此，一個沒收了委員會，一個程序委員會把你擋住，請問這個國會還有存在的價值嗎？這國會還run得下去嗎？這難道不是民主輓歌嗎？今天我們在這裡好像可以繼續質詢下去，他是沒收你質詢、沒收你所有提案說明、沒收你逐條討論的空間，今天不是國民黨良心發現，等一下傅崐萁委員出現的時候，大家可以知道傅崐萁和黃國昌兩人之厲害所在，所以今天大家好好看。 |
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接下來我要講，整個國家在選完以後，立法院2月20日開議到今天已經兩個月，這兩個月時間發生什麼事情呢？整個國家的軸線完全傾斜、扭曲，天地顛倒，毀憲亂政，無所不用其極，國會不斷的擴權。我要講一句話，請各位注意聽，全世界沒有一個政黨乃至於政治人物會表演自殺式的神風特攻隊，但此時此刻，國民黨跟民眾黨、傅崐萁跟黃國昌兩個聯手是表演什麼？大家睜大眼睛看，他們表演自殺式的神風特攻隊，何其愚蠢啊！我不相信民意不會反撲，他整個國會改革完全脫離憲政框架，須修憲的部分，他用修法來完成，釋字585號講得很清楚……是可以罰鍰，而國民黨的版本居然是用刑法伺候──三年以下有期徒刑。所有官員於質詢的時候，他虛偽陳述、拒絕提供答案，有藐視國會之嫌──三年以下有期徒刑。你又要官員不可以反質詢，職權行使法已經修到即問即答，當然是共用這個時間，過去立法院在國民黨執政的時候，吳敦義專門反質詢的，而且他口才又好，但是這沒有辦法，大家對證的。除不可以反質詢外，包括行政院長總質詢的時候，虛偽陳述──處一年以下有期徒刑，難怪在傅崐萁在2月的時候就喊出一句話：大家注意聽！我讓你們民進黨找不到官員來做。請問未來國會是要走向這樣嗎？這個比北韓、比任何國家都還糟糕，蔣介石在世也不敢如此，也就是兩個人，黃國昌跟傅崐萁兩人聯手合作的時候，可以決定整個臺灣的未來，他們甚至認為他可以轉動全球，難怪傅崐萁趕到大陸去，馬英九去了以後，交代反滲透法、國安五法都要重修，傅崐萁難道是去述旨嗎？還是去領旨嗎？所以這個很荒謬的行為一直發生在國民黨身上。國民黨這些委員的政治前途你們自己要顧，國民黨的立法委員，有的是選出來的，或是不分區的也罷，你要把道理講清楚，你們共同在毀壞你們兩個政黨，縱容表演自殺式的，民意不會反撲嗎？ |
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所以黃國昌講了一句話，只要不妨礙他的國會改革，他基本上是冷眼旁觀。但是另外一句話就叫為虎作倀，這根本在為虎作倀嘛！什麼冷眼旁觀？你天天直播罵柯建銘，你安撫一些小草，你認為民意是如此嗎？他今天來質詢，從來不面對問題，迴避問題，圍魏救趙，講一些零星的問題、立法機制的問題，這是黃國昌自己要去面對的，但是你們兩個人聯手的時候，造成整個國家的傷害、對你們政黨的傷害，人民不可能信任你們。尤其我們看到朱立倫居然說520後要叫總統來做國情報告，要即問即答，優於總質詢。總統做國情報告沒有問題啊，但是即問即答，還要書面報告，這個做得到嗎？這違憲耶！朱立倫、傅崐萁、黃國昌把他們黨和國家整個毀掉，在合憲性底下，你們要做什麼都沒問題，憲法規定得很清楚啊！第四條規定，得來做國情報告，但是憲法的設計上是權力分立原則，互相制衡的。依據第五十三條，國家最高行政機關就是行政院。第六十三條規定，立法院的職權、立法委員的職權是議決預算案、法律案、宣戰案、媾和案、條約案等等。然後，憲法增修條文寫得很清楚，總統也是民選的，他的民意基礎比我們任何一個人還高，他得到最多票，所以憲法增修條文講得很清楚，他指派行政院長，是他任命的，來立法院做施政報告以及施政方針，有備詢的義務；但是第三條寫得很清楚，相對的立法院有質詢之權，這是憲法框架上的。你創設憲法所沒有的東西，然後去毀憲亂政、無限擴權，當然是違憲。我不知道朱立倫主席想到什麼地方去，我看到在野黨所謂的菁英，從馬英九以降都是如此，我們希望國家不是這樣傾斜的。馬英九回來可以說要修反滲透法，乃至於國安五法都要修，各位要瞭解民意在看待你們，歷史這一刻是對臺灣極度的影響，我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭。這是憲政時刻，所以不要胡扯、胡說八道，國民黨立委沒有人敢很用力捍衛他的版本，一副無奈狀，因為後面有傅崐萁在、後面有黃國昌在，就是如此嘛！你們的無奈寫在臉上，你們的「幹譙」在內心裡面，我們都很清楚。各位都是立法委員，大家同時站起來，都站出來捍衛國家尊嚴、捍衛社會正義。請不要忘記，我最後再陳述，民意一定會反撲，你注意看。 |
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主席：謝謝柯委員。 |
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接下來有請鄭委員天財發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
160 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-17 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
范雲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
柯建銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-25 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133401 |
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1133401_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等
23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組
織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組
織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條
之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正
草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查
( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」
案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草
案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼
續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審
查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」
案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」
案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查
委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案 |
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建民尋答請主席各位委員同仁剛才吳思耀委員講了一句很重要的話台灣是法院世界裡面民主價值的典範這是我們國會的驕傲 |
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但是呢我們都知道整個國會改革是本會期中重中之重的法案那整個過程也許今天經過兩禮拜四次會議今天可能委員會能夠開多久還是還未定之天 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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因為副總操終於出現了,也許到執行結束以後,因為接下去有比較深水區的所謂國會改革版本,因為之前新司法所以今天我要再講說,那天我們開完會以後,就是禮拜一,直接沒收委員會 |
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反正換言之就是說,整個過程來看,我們都所有作為,他們當招委的時候,上禮拜一當招委的時候,直接擬要過去。所以這種會議當然我們會提三位同意,來主卻他輔助會委員。當然禮拜四我們審的時候,他還來三位同意,他是不讓你開,就是我們版本不讓你開。 |
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那禮拜一這禮拜一也是一樣這禮拜一是這個另外三個法比較不具敏感性的他直接給你三位都議換言之就是沒收委員會所以當天我們記者會的標語叫什麼我會晚歌南白聯手沒收委員會這是非常嚴重的事情啊為什麼呢 |
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151.486 |
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以後藍白他們過班的時候,另外還有六個委員會,六個草案報告,只要我們當六位,因為他們有供給不立法的話,他馬上可以提三位都議。國會什麼時候可以走到今天呢?蔣介石在這也不敢如此。過去國民黨也曾經國會投訴過,我們少數執政的時候,他也不敢如此。整個三十年來,這一刻是最荒謬的一刻。 |
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153.322 |
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175.242 |
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那我看禮拜二陳希維委員會什麼樣所提的法案對於國會議員參加民意會議要有一個規範乃至於行政所長等等到大陸去要有規範陳希維給你完全封殺本來這個民主倒退了30年 |
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177.644 |
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195.577 |
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黨會三十年。國民黨過去,從我進來的時候,本本都是多數,我們大部分時間在反對黨。於是乎陳旭迴一致擋案。官方馬英九執政那八年,總共黨的一萬多個案子。一萬多個案子,這樣很驚悚吧? |
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196.741 |
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214.351 |
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那今天從為如此,一個默說委會、一個誠意委員會擋住,請問這個國會還有存在的價值嗎?這國會還亂了下去嗎?這難道不是民主人哥嗎?今天我們在這裡,好像可以經營下去。 |
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216.567 |
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240.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他是默說你所有提案說明,默說你逐條討論的空間。今天不是國民黨良心發現,等一下傅文綺委員出現的時候,大家都知道傅文綺跟黃國昕兩人是厲害所在。所以我們今天大家好好看。接下來我要講說, |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
242.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
265.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
整個國家在政權在整個選完以後我們一晚開議2月20到今天兩個月這兩個月兩月時間發生什麼事情呢?整個國家的軸線完全傾斜扭曲天地顛倒北線亂震無所不用其極國會不斷扣錢我要講一句話說請各位注意聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
271.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
299.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
全世界沒有一個政黨乃至於曾永烏會表演自殺式的神功特工隊但此時此刻國民黨跟民眾黨、胡文綺跟黃國昌兩個連鎖是表演什麼讓大家睜大眼睛看他表演自殺性的神功特工隊何其愚蠢啊我不相信民意不會反撲 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
300.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
323.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他整個國會改革完全脫移現任框架,以稀修憲的部分他用修法來完成。五八二四是講得很清楚啊,他是中級手段是可以罰款,既然國民黨版本是二期刑法事後三年以下有期徒刑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
324.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
344.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好!立法院在所有官員一執行的時候以七位陳述記者提供答案以我藐視國會之前撒你一哈你立法院也不可以反執行已經執行修到幾問幾答當然是共同這個時間過去這個代理委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
348.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
360.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
國民黨執政的時候吳征宜專門反執勤的而且他口才又好但是這是沒有辦法大家對證的不可以反執勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
362.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以包括行政院長一總之因為說稀微陳述一年以下有許多刑難怪傅文綺在二月初的二月十二就喊出議長一個話大家注意聽一句話當你們民進黨找不到官員來做請問這是未來國會是走向這樣嗎這個比北韓比共和國現在還糟糕董建勳暫時也不敢如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
391.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
也就是兩個人,黃國昌跟胡文綺兩人手合作的時候可以決定這個台灣的未來。他們甚至認為他可以轉動全球。兩位胡文綺往後趕到大陸去,哪一個既然要交代反送中法,萬一搞到重修? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
414.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
440.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
賴瑞隆等13人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
443.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
460.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
重重表演自殺式,民意不會橫幅嗎?所以黃國昌講了一句話,只要不妨礙他的國會改革,他基本上是人眼旁觀。但是另外一句話叫為虎作倉,這根本就是為虎作倉嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
實問人員旁觀:「你天天直播罵柯建民,你安握一些小草,你認為民意是如此嗎?」他今天來執行,從來不面對問題,回避問題,回味舊造,講一些零星的問題,立法機制問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
482.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
502.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這是黃國昌自己要去面對的,但是你們兩人合作,這樣合作的時候造成整個國家傷害,對你們政黨的傷害,人民不可能信任你們。尤其我們看到朱立文竟然講說要叫總統來做國情報告,要急問急答,優於董事群。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
508.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
511.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
請問總統這種文明報告沒有問題啊當然是質疑問其他還要輸入報告這個做得到嗎?這違憲的在合憲性底下連住民把這個黨這位黃文綺和黃昌把他們的黨和國家整個毀去掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
532.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
551.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在核心議題下,你要做什麼都沒問題。憲法規定很清楚啊,第四條就要來做國情報告。但是憲法的設計上是潛力分立原則,互相制衡的。國家最高...有三條國家最高情任機關,就是行政院。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
552.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
576.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那個三條規定,立法院的職權,立法院的職權是一節、一宗案、法律案、宣戰、過河條案等等。然後香港政策條約很清楚,總統也是明顯的,他民意紀錄比我們那個委員還高,他得的做過票。所以香港政策條約講很清楚,他只派行政院長,他任命的,來立法院做施政報告,也是施政方針。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
577.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
606.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有備刑的義務當相對立法院有執行之前這是憲法框架上你創設憲法所謂的東西然後去做違憲端正無限擴權當然是違憲我不知道朱英文主席他在想到什麼地方去整個我看到整個在野黨所謂精英從馬英九以降都是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
607.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
628.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們希望國家不是這樣傾斜的,來久回來可以說要修反身正法,乃至於國安無法都要修。各位,要了解民意在看待你們,歷史這一刻是對台灣極度的影響,我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
629.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
652.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這是憲政時刻,所以不要胡說八道,然後每一個民進黨立委沒有人敢很用力判分他的版本,因為無奈狀,因為後面有胡文綺在,後面有黃國昌在。這就是如此嘛,你們很無奈寫在臉上,你們敢搖在內心裡面,我們都很清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
653.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
667.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
各位,都是立法院,大家同時站起來,如果站出來,捍衛國家尊嚴,捍衛所有爭議,請不要忘記,我最後再整述,民意一定會反撲,大家注意看。 |