| IVOD_ID |
151603 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151603 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-24T09:41:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-24T09:52:14+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:35 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3ac11c57419f80bbe7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432f88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:41:39 - 09:52:14 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
380 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（9時41分）主席，我請一下部長跟秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：有請秘書長、部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
蔡部長清祥：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：秘書長，非常令人心痛，要用優秀的司法人員的生命才能夠喚起大家面對司法改革，凸顯了司法人員的辦案壓力這麼大，我覺得這對我們的社會來說，他們所付出的代價太大了，你有這樣的感覺嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：當然是深切感受。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：你為了這樣才來提出這些改革，e化越多，智能化越多，結果司法人員壓力越大，這是內部有問題，不是法官有問題。尤其大法官又要廢死，我上次就問過你，你跟我說你都沒態度，你又不是大法官。你要有一個態度出來嘛！大法官如果廢死，後面治安事件會更多，司法人員辦案的壓力會更大，對不對？是不是這樣？這是一個具體的事實，大法官都不用討論，大家都是「食飯坩中央」的，可以做到大法官了，還在「食飯坩中央」，可惡！ |
| gazette.blocks[5][1] |
尤其侵犯本院立法院的立法權，上次我就跟你說過了，部長，你一生作為司法人員可以當到部長，我跟你說，對你的司法生涯已經是一個很完美的過程了，但是在最後這個階段，你如果能夠再發揮你的功能，能夠在昨天廢除死刑的辯論中，你們的司長有證明你在這裡對本席的答復，說你們準備好了。沒有顧慮到人民的感情，什麼叫做要跟民意在一起，為什麼不用跟民意在一起？如果司法不用顧慮民意，沒關係，但是司法可以傷害人民對治安期待的感情嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][2] |
你有看到我們現在年輕人去應徵工作被人騙還帶出國，以為可以一個月多領五、六萬，結果回來臺灣的時候，「腰子」少一粒，五臟六腑少一樣，甚至被人拘押，不是在國外，不是在柬埔寨，是在臺灣，甚至喪失生命。治安這麼敗壞，詐騙這麼多，你還在廢除死刑！實在說，昨天這些法庭之友被選到的總共有幾個？部長，被選到的幾個？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
蔡部長清祥：十幾個。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：十幾個。這就像在拔河一樣，裁判是他們，挑選手也是他們，挑十幾個100公斤的對上你們三、四個50公斤的，你要怎樣拉得贏他們？所以你只有靠民意挺你，84%的民意就是你的後盾。昨天辯論下來，部長，我在這裡跟你說的你有拿去用，美國難道不進步？說進步的社會就要廢除死刑，我聽你「龜咧哮」！美國不進步嗎？美國有幾個州也是一樣有死刑，它怎麼沒有違憲？日本難道不進步嗎？韓國不進步嗎？新加坡不進步嗎？為什麼他們的死刑就沒有違憲？為什麼過去我們的死刑也沒有違憲，你現在要將它促成違憲。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][1] |
剛才柯總召來我跟他說，我說臺灣現在只剩兩個人可以把憲法法庭針對死刑是否違憲的辯護後的解釋擋下來，只剩下兩個人，剩下兩個人，你是第三個，第一個就是賴清德，第二個是柯建銘，他跟我說他反對，他有發FB，說他要和我站在一起，我聽了很感動。但和我站在一起沒有用，要和人民站在一起，要和正義站在一起！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][2] |
要講人權，什麼人不捍衛人權，你大法官要捍衛人權，難道我們都沒有在捍衛人權？那些人被人殺死，他去殺死別人的時候，有想那些人的人權嗎？事情發生之後，作奸犯科、殺人放火都做完了，再來期待法律給他恩典，來思考他的人權。你們這些大法官是怎樣？大到衣服都穿不下了一樣。部長，從昨天的辯論下來你的看法，因為剛才你說到，羅委員在問你，你講的那些話我聽了很害怕，你說配套都準備好了，那你不就是想要退讓？這是你人生最後一戰，這是你人生的最後一戰，說說看。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們的立場很清楚，我們已經表達了我們堅定的立場，認為死刑的規定是合憲的，但是大法官他們釋憲的結果是如何，我無法預期，但是不管怎麼樣的結果，我們都有預擬各種方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：這群大法官已經在橫行直走了，當法官自殺、付出生命的時候，司法院長還叫他們去外面走一走，叫你們這些司法人員要常常到外面走動，這種思維，讓他解釋出來的憲法，你不用擔心他會跟民意站在一起，你不用擔心他會跟民意站在一起！所以，他不但沒有顧慮到人民的感情，甚至是傷害人民對司法的期待，這點我期期以為不可。本席在這裡跟你說，你不可以退讓，因為你剛才說的好像是要退讓，後面有配套，你都想好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
蔡部長清祥：包括合憲，包括違憲，我們都要想清楚，要準備…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：你想一個合憲就好了，違憲你不用想了，因為釋憲案宣告出來的時候，你已經光榮退休了，所以這是你最後一戰。你要在你離開之前很明確的，本席向你請求，本席代表廣大的臺灣人民、無奈的臺灣人民在這裡向你拜託，你要離開法務部長之前，寫一篇你認為死刑是合憲的文章並公開發表，因為你有能力可以扭轉乾坤。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][1] |
還有另外一個就是賴清德，我已經公開呼籲他了，如果清德兄你今天不表態，不願意表態，大法官解釋之後，如果認定死刑違憲，未來治安惡化，臺灣人民付出的代價，所有的政治責任、道德責任都是你賴總統要去承擔。這對他不公平啦！但是他有能力，如果他再沉默不出聲，相對的，他就要付出這個代價。部長，在你司法人生完美的過程中，本席拜託你，你可以承諾嗎？在你要離開之前，針對死刑是合憲，表達一下強烈的心聲出來給臺灣人民，和臺灣人民站在一起，你看怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
蔡部長清祥：法務部已經表達過好幾次了，我們的立場都很堅定，就是認為死刑的規定是合憲的，這個已經很清楚了，我們也發了好幾次的說明，還有…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：你用你個人最後做一次表達，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
蔡部長清祥：現在我沒有我個人的身分，我現在仍然是代表法務部，等我離開之後，當然我可以…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：你的意思是你5月20日才要表達就對了？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
蔡部長清祥：沒有，這個還沒出來，它的釋憲結果還沒出來嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：你要捍衛啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我當然，我從頭到尾都在捍衛，我又沒有改變啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
謝委員龍介：你要用合憲的角度去捍衛啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
蔡部長清祥：有，我沒有改變，從頭到尾我們都一貫的立場啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
謝委員龍介：你不要影響本席對你一生欣賞的角度耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
蔡部長清祥：感謝啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：你不要被他騙了。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
謝委員龍介：真的啊！你問他個人，看我是不是很欣賞他的行事作風。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：你都只有一天而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以你看看，「白白布欲共我染甲烏」耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[26][1] |
民進黨大家都這樣，部長，你要為我作證，對不對？我們是站在公義和道理這邊，站在正義這邊，所以我在這裡強力表達，包括大法官把無期徒刑假釋之後再犯者後面的刑度順便在解釋文裡面寫下來，你記得嗎？記得嗎？本席已經在這裡強烈表達對大法官剝奪立法院立法權的抗議。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][2] |
部長，在這裡期待你能在司法人生完美的最後一戰和臺灣2,300萬人民站在一起，感謝你！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蔡部長清祥：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝部長、秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][1] |
接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
250 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-16 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
187 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-24 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1133301_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運
用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢 |
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主席我請補長跟秘書長一個好,有請秘書長、部長委員好秘書長,非常心痛用到優秀的司法人員的姓名還可以喚起大家對這個司法改革突顯到說這些人司法人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
41.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
41.725 |
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這是內部有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
71.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.376 |
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不是法官有問題啊尤其是大法官還在會試,我頂多就問過你這樣啊你告訴我你都沒態度,你不是大法官你要有一個態度出來嘛大法官如果會試就對了啊阿伯在那裡死了,會更多死我臨完半年的安寧就對了,會更大對不對是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
97.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
114.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這是一個骨鐵的屬性阿 台灣官都不用討論大家說吃飯卡中可以做到台灣官還在吃飯卡中?靠!尤其像我本人 立法院的立法官當初我就跟你說過 補充你一生就對了 做一個司法人員可以做到補充我跟你說 他已經是對你的司法生涯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
126.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
135.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
已經很完美的一個規定了但最好在最好這個階段你若能夠再發揮你的功能能夠在這個匯度施行的前面辯論你的訴求有證明你在這裡跟本席的答案說你準備好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
150.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
170.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
沒有顧及人民的感情,什麼叫做要看民意社會?為什麼不用看民意社會?如果司法不用顧及民意,沒關係!但是司法可以傷害人民對地安、基台的感情嗎?你看到我們現在的年輕人在吃頭肉?去應徵!去我們便宜! |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
177.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
184.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
再看出國 當作可以一國為基金的五六萬結果回來台灣的時候 余季減一粒某種旅費減一項甚至 去擁國不是在國內 不是在柬埔寨內是在台灣內甚至 總是死命 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
202.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
207.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
在我們這麼多白海、炸片這麼多,你還在恢復私刑?實在說,我們這裡的法定資料,都算比算到幾個,沒錯?比算到幾個?十幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
225.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
233.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以你只有靠民意給你停啦!八十四%的民意就是你的囚犯啦!昨天的辯論的部長,我在這裡跟你講你有拿去贏啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
252.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
265.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
更不進步說進步的社會就要恢復私營我聽你哭得好勒美國不進步美國整個州也是同樣的私營他都不去維新日本更不進步韓國更不進步新加坡更不進步為什麼他們的私營都沒危險為什麼過去我們的私營都沒危險你現在要將它搓成危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
282.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
293.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
獨家柯總召來我講我講臺灣現在存兩個人可以把這個施行的心法、變貨料的解說當下來才有存兩個人存兩個人啊你是第三個啊第一就是我請教第一是柯建民他跟我說他反對,他有發FB說他要跟我站在一起我聽到很感動啊跟我站在一起沒有用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
311.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
326.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
要靠人民站在一起 要靠正義站在一起啦人權 什麼人沒有捍衛人權啊你台北多少人有捍衛人權 我都沒有在捍衛人權那些人叫台視 他們去台視把人的身高射在那些人的人權啊 事情發生之後啊 做乾環科 台南辦會做之後啊還要去台中發掘給他們運動 來輸給他們的人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
339.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
347.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
哇!你這台話說什麼?大到沙都穿不下來的樣子!不對,對整個辯論下來!你會看我,因為剛才你說到,盧委員在問你,你跟我說,我聽到很害怕!你配套都準備好了,你不說想要退牛?他人性最好一件耶!這是你人性的最好一件! |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
363.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
384.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
說話嘛我們的立場很清楚我們已經表達了我們堅定的立場認為死刑的規定是合憲的但是大法官他們釋憲的結果是如何我無法預期啦但是他不管怎麼樣的結果我們都有預擬各種方案這陣台法官已經在反映在鏡子內只有我們的法官主宣就對了恢復生命的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
391.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
402.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個議員剛才說叫你去外面走走叫你們在司法院外面去外面走走這款司法委員就對了 讓他解說出來的憲法你不要煩惱他的革命他站在那裡啦你不要煩惱他的革命他站在那裡啦所以他不但沒有顧及到人民的感情甚至是傷害人民對司法的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
418.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
424.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這一點是極其依偎不可啦本身你知道我告訴你你不用退牛因為你剛才說的不需要退牛阿爸有配套你都想好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
427.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
448.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
包括河瀉、包括維瀉,我們都要想清楚嘛,要準備啦,當然所以...你選擇河瀉就好了啦,維瀉你不用想啦,因為他選擇出來,你已經公認撤休啦,所以這是你最好的一件,你要在你理會前陣喔,做明確,本席跟你請求啦,本席代表共台的台灣人民,無奈的台灣人民在這裡跟你拜託, |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
457.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
483.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你要離開法務部部長進行你30天你對著會讀、私營、合憲是合憲的私營是合憲的你公開發表因為你有能力會擋牛鑽乾坤還有另外一個就是羅清廷我已經公開給保佑了如果清廷那些你今天如果不要表態不管你表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
484.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
497.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
待法官改帥了後：若是違憲：未來在我們的歐法．台灣人民付出的代價．所有的政筆責任．特定的責任．都是你老總統要去承擔． |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
501.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
509.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這對他不公平,但是他有能力,他若要再點點不出聲,相對他就要付出這個代價,在你司法人選完畢的過程中,本席,拜託你,你能承諾嗎?在你要理會陣情,針對這個事情是合憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
526.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
532.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
來表達一個強烈的心聲出來給台灣人民跟台灣人民站在一起你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
534.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
556.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
法務部已經表達過半天了 我們的立場都很堅定的就是領域施行的規定是合憲的 這已經很清楚了我們也發了好幾次的說明你用你個人最好做一番表達可以嗎現在我沒有我個人的信任 我現在仍然是代表法務部五位 五位你再要表達就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
559.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
571.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有啦!他這個還沒出來嘛!他的視線結果還沒出來嘛!你還要捍衛啊!我當然啦!我從頭到尾都捍衛在那裡啊!我沒改變啊!從頭到尾我們都一貫的立場啊!你不能影響分析對你一生形象的角度耶!感謝啦!真的啊!你問他個人化我是不是很形象,他的形象很風啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
587.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
588.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以我強烈在這裡報告台灣國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
605.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
635.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝 |