| IVOD_ID |
151435 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151435 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-18T11:44:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-18T11:53:47+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4459e1208f25d0c791604d5d2f84b0f7606c5dab72e655c1c94db83578cf04ae42b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:44:14 - 11:53:47 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。(詢答)） |
| gazette.lineno |
1184 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（11時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長、台電的代表。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：我們再請王部長跟王總經理。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
王部長美花：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
黃委員國昌：兩位好，之前我在質詢國發會的時候就點出，我們的國發基金拿了將近快要30億連同耀華玻璃去投資了一家虧損累累、累積虧損上百億的光電公司，結果搞了半天以後，政府花納稅人的錢，我不會說那個叫產業升級，根本是讓國發基金變成紓困基金，然後那家公司的董事長就成為蔡英文綠能後援會的總會長，這樣子的官商關係是我沒有辦法接受的。但這個跟部長沒有關係，因為接下來這家公司一片綠友友，全部都是用民進黨的權貴，在那些公司裡面，有的當獨董、有的當董事、有的安插自己的人進去，但我關心的事情是什麼？這家公司當初跟經濟部承諾它不會賣股，結果拿到了彰濱工業區的案子以後，聯合再生工程把股票賣得乾乾淨淨的，套利大賺一筆了以後，那時候的工業局局長都說：這個不是我提高聲量而已，我們部長都提高聲量。可以這樣胡搞瞎搞！其中有一個關鍵的問題，當初這一家後台很硬的聯合再生去拿彰濱工業區那邊的地的時候，它裡面有做承諾，為了要取得在地居民、在地環保團體的同意、點頭，他們做了什麼承諾？他們做的承諾是他們要保留一個生態熱區，結果案場拿到了，土地拿到了，賣股後錢賺了，結果前面的承諾全部拋諸腦後，發文要求經濟部工業局同意他們之前承諾的那個生態特區算了、不要做了。部長，有沒有這樣的事？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
王部長美花：第一個，在生態熱區的部分，它在招標的時候確實有講，不過，它是提到三跟四這兩個部分有標到的話，它要來做，因為這個生態熱區會跨到三跟四兩個地域，但是它最後只拿到一個標案，沒有拿到兩個標案。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以呢？所以這個承諾就不用履行、沒有關係？這是經濟部的立場嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
王部長美花：第一個，當時這樣的一個規範，因為標案不同，現在執行的部分，它去擴大了這個間距。但委員提到這樣的問題，我們現在也會請它來跟我們說明這樣擴大間距對生態的部分是不是有做好保護，我們也會邀請相關的專家一起來看。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
黃委員國昌：我先跟部長講我的立場，廠商在拿標案的時候做了很多承諾，其目的是什麼？因為它要拿到好的分數，它要拿到那個標案，結果標案到手、落袋了以後，前面做的承諾全部都忘了，能不做就不做，廠商站在自私自利的立場或許可以這樣幹，但我把這件事情提出來的理由是什麼？經濟部也好，我們的主管機關也好，都要有自己的立場，不能讓廠商這樣胡作非為。部長剛剛說了，我提了這個問題以後，你們會請聯合再生好好說明，我靜待他們最後說明的結果以及經濟部做什麼樣子的處置，國家的光電政策絕對不是讓這些覺得自己後台很硬的廠商愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][1] |
除了這件以外，我們繼續再往下看，聯合再生一樣跑去跟台水拿標案，取得台水公司的光電標案，讓台水放他們的光電板，台灣自來水公司啦！案場部分我全部都列下來，結果它拿到了這個案場以後，現在開始要進行契約的變更。聯合再生內部討論的時候說這個電我們來賣給雲豹，可以賺更多的錢，為什麼要賣給雲豹？內部會議討論說，因為雲豹，我們可以處理台水、可以處理台電，他們通通都會同意我們來修改契約。我接到這個檢舉了以後，我一定要求證，並不是說人家怎麼講，我就怎麼相信，所以我召集了台電跟台水到黨團的辦公室來，我當面具名跟他們提出這個檢舉，有沒有這樣的事？台電跟台水都跟我說：有，他們有提出換約的要求。我那個時候告訴我們的國營事業：堅守立場啊！你們是在為國家做事啊！不是在為特定的光電業者牟利啊！結果台水有堅守立場，台水函復給我的是：回復聯合再生，我們不同意修改合約。台水堅守了立場，但我今天利用質詢的時候特別跟部長報告這件事情，這個聯合再生非常的囂張，台水不同意之後，他們現在的計畫是什麼？硬幹！台水不同意，光台水不同意，我們還是要硬幹！完全不理台水的意見！他們也發了什麼？他們也發了約跟台電說，它要終止跟台電之間購售的合約，這件事情是不是真的？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
王部長美花：我今天不瞭解…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
王總經理耀庭：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
黃委員國昌：這件事情是真的！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
王總經理耀庭：確實它要跟我們解約，就是FIT躉購合約。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
黃委員國昌：台電同意了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
王總經理耀庭：我瞭解的是在公司的程序上，我們希望把綠電都給民間業者的廠商…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你們同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
王總經理耀庭：原則上我們是同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以就落入他們的套路了。好，請經濟部部長，台電要同意，台電負責；但台水不同意喔！當初台水跟他們簽約的時候是已經講好了喔，我把這些案場給你，一度多少錢、要怎麼算，全部簽了什麼樣的約，這又是第二個例子喔！第二個例子是什麼？廠商拿到國家的資源了以後，它真的在幫國家想嗎？它沒有在幫國家想，它愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，講話很囂張耶！「我背後可以找到人去處理啊！我就是要硬闖啊！你台水不同意又如何？」這件事情部長知不知道？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
王部長美花：委員，我這樣聽起來有幾個可能，我需要去瞭解，假設今天它的太陽光電是賣台電，那是躉購費率，但是它要跟台電終止去賣給民間，我們是歡迎的，因為這個就直接賣給民間，台電就不需要用躉購費率來收購。至於委員講的這個台水不同意的部分，這個我回去再瞭解是什麼樣一個狀況。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦，因為台水也好、台電也好，上面的主管機關都是我們的經濟部嘛！我今天利用這個質詢告訴部長一個基本的觀念，廠商站在他們自己的立場，他們想要賺錢，但我的要求只有一個，我們的主管機關在面對這件事情的時候是要站在納稅人的立場、站在國家的立場，以納稅人的立場跟國家的利益為最優先，不可以讓他們這個樣子愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，手法如出一轍啊！當初拿彰濱工業區的時候做一堆承諾，拿到了以後愛怎麼改就怎麼改，因為我們主管機關不會管嘛！它把主管機關當「細漢仔」，我先騙到了，騙到了以後，我後續要怎麼處理、修改契約、變更契約、生態熱區不用保留。他們的手法一模一樣，部長你看不出來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
王部長美花：可能這兩個案情不太一樣，這個我回去再瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃委員國昌：部長，你需要多少時間？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
王部長美花：我一個禮拜應該就可以瞭解一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，請經濟部一個禮拜給我書面報告這件事要怎麼處理，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
王部長美花：好，可以，沒問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][1] |
接下來請李柏毅委員，請做詢答。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][2] |
我們中午不休息，一直到我們會議完整結束，謝謝。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
412 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-8 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
339 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-18 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133101 |
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1133101_00011 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資
源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金（詢答） |
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現在我們請黃國昌委員請做詢答謝謝主席麻煩有請部長我們再請王部長跟王總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.223 |
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表會好之前我在質詢國發會的時候我是點出來我們的國發基金拿了將近快要30億聯同耀華玻璃去投了一家虧損累累累積虧損上百億的光電公司結果搞了半天了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.984 |
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政府發納稅的錢我不會說那叫產業升級根本讓國發基金變成紓困基金然後那家公司的董事長就成為蔡英文綠年後援會的總會長這樣子的官商關係是我沒有辦法接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
67.439 |
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88.209 |
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這個跟部長沒有關係因為接下來這家公司一片綠油油全部都是用民進黨的權貴在那些公司裡面有的當獨董有的當董事有的安插自己的私人進去但我關心的事情是什麼 |
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88.954 |
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113.311 |
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這家公司當初跟經濟部承諾他不會賣股結果拿到了張斌工業區以後聯合再生工程股票賣得乾乾淨淨的套利大賺一筆了以後大賺一筆了以後讓那時候的工業局局長都說這個不是我提高聲量而已我們部長都提高聲量可以這樣胡搞瞎搞 |
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114.028 |
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其中有一個關鍵的問題當初這一家後台很硬的聯合再生去拿張濱工業區那邊的地的時候他裡面有做承諾為了要取得在地的居民在地環保團體的同意點頭他們做了什麼承諾他們做的承諾是他們要保留一個生態熱區 |
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139.182 |
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結果案場拿到了土地拿到了賣股錢賺了結果前面的承諾全部拋諸腦後發文要求經濟部工業局同意他們我們之前承諾的那個生態特區算了不要做了部長有沒有這樣的事 |
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第一個他在生態熱區的部分他確實招標的時候有講不過他是提到他3跟4兩個部分標到的話他要來做因為這個生態熱區會跨到3跟4兩個的地域但是他最後只拿到一個標案沒有拿到兩個標案 |
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180.8 |
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所以這個承諾就不用履行沒有關係這是經濟部的立場嗎 |
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211.46 |
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我先跟部長講我的立場啊是廠商在拿標案的時候做了很多承諾目的是什麼他要拿到好的分數嘛他要拿到那個標案嘛結果東西標案到手落袋了以後前面做的承諾全部都忘了能不做就不做廠商從他自私自利的立場或許可以這樣幹但我把這件事情提出來的理由是什麼經濟部也好 |
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240.205 |
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我們的主管機關也好要有自己的立場不能讓廠商這樣胡作非為部長剛剛說了我提了這個問題以後你們會請聯合再生好好說明我靜待我靜待他們最後說明的結果以及經濟部做什麼樣子的處置 |
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259.717 |
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國家的光電政策絕對不是讓這些覺得自己後台很硬的廠商愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞除了這些以外我們繼續再往下看聯合再生一樣跑去跟台水拿標案取得台水公司的光電標案讓台水放他們的光電板台灣自然水公司啦暗場我全部都列下來 |
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286.847 |
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298.558 |
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結果他拿到了這個案場以後現在開始要做什麼事情開始要進行契約的變更聯合再生內部討論的時候說這個電我們來賣給雲豹可以賺更多的錢 |
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306.069 |
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那為什麼要賣給雲豹內部會議討論說因為雲豹我們可以處理台水可以處理台電他們通通都會同意我們來修改契約 |
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319.301 |
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346.909 |
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我接到這個檢舉了以後我一定要求證我不是說人家怎麼講我就怎麼相信所以我召集了台電跟台水到黨團的辦公室來我當面據你跟他們提出這個檢舉有沒有這樣的事台電跟台水都跟我說有他們有提出換約的要求我那個時候告訴我們的國營事業堅守立場哈 |
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348.339 |
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376.298 |
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你們是在為國家做事啊不是在為特定的光電業者謀利啊結果台水有堅守立場台水含附給我的是回復聯合再生我們不同意修改合約台水堅守立場但我今天利用質詢的時候特別跟部長報告這件事情啊是這個聯合再生啊非常的囂張啊台水不同意他們現在的計畫是什麼硬幹 |
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379.1 |
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406.059 |
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臺水不同意關臺水不同意我們還是要硬幹完全不理臺水的意見他們也發了什麼他們也發了約跟臺電說他要跟中子跟臺電之間啊購售的合約這件事情是不是真的我今天不瞭解了報告委員這件事情是真的確實他要跟我們解約就是臺電同意了沒有 |
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我瞭解的是在公司的程序上我們因為是希望把綠電都給民間業者的廠商所以你們同意嗎?是嗎?原則上我們是同意這樣子的案子所以嘛就落入他們的套路了嘛好來請經濟部部長台電要同意台電負責但台水什麼?台水不同意喔當初喔當初台水跟他們簽約的時候是已經講好了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
436.138 |
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我把這些案場給你一度多少錢要怎麼算全部簽了什麼約這個又是第二個例子第二個例子喔第二個例子是什麼廠商拿到國家的資源了以後他真的在幫國家想嗎他沒有在幫國家想他愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞講話很囂張欸我背後我可以找到人去處理啊 |
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463.717 |
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470.182 |
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我就是要硬闖阿你台水不同意又如何這件事情部長知不知道 |
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472.258 |
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495.29 |
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委員我這樣聽起來有幾個可能需要我需要了解假設今天他的太陽光電是賣給台電那是短購費率但是他要跟台電中止去賣給民間我們是歡迎的因為這個就直接賣給民間台電就不需要短購費率來收購那至於委員講的這個台水的部分不要這個部分我回去再了解是什麼樣的一個狀況因為台水也好台電也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.832 |
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上面全部主管機關都是我們的經濟部嘛我今天利用這個質詢告訴部長一個基本的觀念廠商他們站在他們自己的立場他們想要賺錢但我的要求只有一個我們的主管機關在面對這件事情的時候是要站在納稅人的立場站在國家的立場以納稅人立場跟國家的利益為最優先不可以讓他們這個樣子愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞 |
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526.064 |
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547.574 |
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守法如出一策啊當初拿張斌工業區的時候做一堆承諾拿到了以後愛怎麼改就怎麼改反正我們主管機關不會管嘛他把主管機關當小孩的我先騙到了騙到了以後我後續要怎麼處理修改契約、變更契約生態熱區不用保留 |
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549.776 |
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549.796 |
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黃國昌 |