| IVOD_ID |
151412 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151412 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-18T10:53:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-18T11:01:53+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4457d83b8a273f54ac1f81d0e85270258c9c5dab72e655c1c94233332d118b3cbf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
柯建銘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:53:14 - 11:01:53 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。
四、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。
五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| gazette.lineno |
290 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
柯委員建銘：（10時53分）來，很可惜，黃委員走了，他要挑戰我，我馬上要回答啊，他這是訴外裁判，今天講國會改革，他提到其他問題去，沒有關係，正好我在場。第一個，他說他很守規矩，時間到就要走，剛才時間到了以後，他後面還講多久？這個是活生生的案例，大家現在都看得很清楚吧。當然這個大家盡量遵守發言的時間，這是好事，難免有時候，國會是沒有100%啦，但是大家都基於尊重的立場上，所以黃委員，你不要說一說人就跑掉了嘛，有氣魄的話，就留下來辯論，這才是我們今天要面對的。 |
| gazette.blocks[0][1] |
他講兩個問題，我回答。第一個，729釋字是怎麼來的？729釋字是因為我引起的，當年9月2號政爭，大家都知道吧，我告黃世銘、告馬英九，我告什麼？捍衛憲政體制，終結特務治國。黃世銘監聽國會，這是何等大事啊，全世界民主國家，能夠容許他和馬英九兩個人，天天看監聽的資料，研究如何追殺柯建銘，如何做政治操作，這是馬英九一輩子的恥辱，黃世銘因此而下臺。可以監聽國會，然後對我是24小時監聽的，各位，這是民主國家容許的現象嗎？所以我在這裡的時候我問黃世銘，你跟馬英九見面幾次，為什麼一個檢察總長可以隨意跟總統碰面呢？他說一次，我說你再想清楚，他說兩次，我說「你死定了」。各位，這個都是有留下紀錄的，我說「你死定了」，為什麼？你根本隨時跟他見面嘛，隨時跟他通電話嘛！檢察總長跟總統在做政治操作，違法監聽，這個在世界民主國家，總統早就下臺了，總統是憲法的守護者，所以我要行使調閱，調閱什麼？調通聯紀錄！到底馬英九跟黃世銘的通話通聯紀錄，這一調出來就真相大白，馬英九是何止難堪啊，這官司他要跟我打嗎？是不是這樣？所以他們行使抵抗權，不提供就是不提供，後來黃世銘還曾經跟蘋果日報講說，他要跟馬英九通話無數，常常是通來通去，所以我要調他的通聯紀錄就是如此啊。他拒絕提供，我就積極來啊，所以才有一個大法官729號解釋嘛，說偵查中的案件不可以調閱，那我也是肯認啊。這是這樣走過來的歷史，黃國昌到底懂什麼？他以為抓到我小辮子，可以在這裡打我一番、痛打一番，可是他沒有臉來面對我。 |
| gazette.blocks[0][2] |
第二個，有關什麼叫做逕付二讀，逕付二讀的問題，周萬來的書寫得很清楚，周萬來敢否認這件事情嗎？逕付二讀是說立法院將案子抽出來逕付二讀，逕付二讀可以馬上通過嗎？當然是要朝野協商一個月嘛，否則的話，立法院對於這個案子，我們國會改革法案也不必在這裡審了啦！禮拜一國民黨也不要演這一套，逕付二讀就馬上通過，逕付二讀當然要朝野協商啊。他提一個案子說逕付二讀，然後通過，那是朝野協商完畢，大家都簽好了，大家都簽好，大家都認為這個案子逕付二讀有急迫性，那是大家都簽好了的，各黨黨鞭簽完字的，所以我在這裡提案是大家都同意了才會過啊！黃國昌，到底他這個法律人，居然可以不顧法律的爭議，所有過程是怎麼樣？以為在這個地方可以把我打死，一棒子打死，希望他等一下進入逐條的時候，我來跟他對決這些問題。時間到了嗎？因為我有一點黃斑，看不到。 |
| gazette.blocks[0][3] |
還有3分半，所以今天我們在講國會改革，國會改革的時候，就比喻說把它抽出逕付二讀馬上通過，不可能的，即便你用手段抽出逕付二讀，可以，但還是要朝野協商一個月嘛，但是那時候逕付二讀，是在大家同意底下可以馬上通過，這是立法院最快速的一刻，一定是有緊急事項，可能是條約案，可能是大法官釋憲時間一年到了，不趕快處理，立法院會有失職守。像這種情況是很特別，大家有共識，才有可能提出逕付二讀，然後大家簽朝野協商讓它過去，所以黃國昌故意忽略那一段。如果要說事情，大家就要一項一項來講，所以今天我要在這裡用很短的時間來告訴國民黨立委，我剛才點出一個很重要的問題，沒有程序正義，絕對沒有實質正義，你禮拜一那個所有程序全部違法，我不知道將來在院會的時候如何表決，沈發惠已經很客氣、委婉的點出來，我可以把它明講，所有反對都要經過議決的，大法官342號解釋，大法官342號解釋，為什麼會有342？因為國安五法的關係，當年國安五法逕付二讀，在院會表決、在院會處理的時候，王金平院長馬上喊通過，沒有經過議決，所以大法官342號解釋說立法院所有的事情經過議決的話，除非違反憲法，才可以排除其他法律。因為你這個是修憲的法案，你可以這樣搞法嗎？立法院沒有經過合法程序的話，沒有一件會通過，都是重來的，當然一例一休也是重來，當然國務機要費也是重來，因為在大家衝突底下，沒有辦法處理。我們禮拜一有非常從容合理的時間全部給你們，我眼睜睜看你怎麼處理程序。吳宗憲委員是新科委員，他根本不瞭解，他在這個地方犯下極大錯誤，已經埋下國會改革五法在院會處理的衝突之因素。 |
| gazette.blocks[0][4] |
我剛才說，國民黨總召傅崐萁委員馬上要去大陸，他以為安心可以走了，他所要的有些方面都走完了。我敬告各位，國民黨委員那天在審查的時候，表情是無奈的，內心是掙扎的。因為國民黨傅崐萁要和黃國昌把失速列車開往懸崖，讓你們集體去跳樓，我們要當毀憲的兵馬俑共同埋葬嗎？這一刻你們自己好好想一想。奉勸國民黨委員，坐在這裡，主席也很無奈，也去跟傅總召講，但傅總召跟黃國昌兩個人綁在一起，以為可以轉動臺灣、轉動全世界，國會就是他們掌控。國民黨的委員，你們未來是要接受民意調查的，這一刻是你們最後決定的時候。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：謝謝柯總召。剛剛柯總召所說的那個主席，應該是指週一輪值的吳召委。不好意思，還是要說明一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][1] |
接下來有請羅委員智強發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
532 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-14 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
柯建銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
沈伯洋 |
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翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
479 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-18 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133101 |
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1133101_00013 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬
具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案；三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職
權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案；四、委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19
人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行
使法部分條文修正草案」案 |
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1133101_00020 |
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SPEAKER_00 |
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519.25784375 |
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519.96659375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
5.697 |
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6.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
46.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
很可惜,潘委員走了,走了啦。他要挑戰我,我馬上要回答。他在做宿外裁判,今天講國會改革,他提到其他問題去,沒有關係,正好我在場。第一個,他很守規矩,時間到就要走,剛才時間到以後他後面還講多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
67.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這個活生生的案例大家都現在都看得很清楚吧?當然這個大家這樣所花的時間這是好事,難免有時候國會是沒有100%啦,但是大家都記於尊重立場上。所以呢,黃委員,你們兩個公共不是在爭執嗎?做得好就大家留在一邊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
68.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
89.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這才是我們今天要面對的他講兩個問題我回答第一個729事實是怎麼來的只有事實因為我引起的當年九月二戰爭大家都知道知道嘛我告黃世民告馬英九這個是我告什麼他有沒有憲政體制終結特務制國黃世民監聽國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
93.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
116.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這何等大事啊?前世的民主國家,然後和馬來西亞有兩個人天天看監聽資料,如何追查柯建民,如何做政治操作。這是馬來西亞一輩子的恥辱。法治民因此而下台。可以監聽國會,然後都有20小時現役的,各位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
120.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
146.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這是民主國家的現象嗎?所以我在這裡的時候問王子明你跟馬英九見面幾次?為什麼一個檢察總統誰以為跟總統分門呢?他說一次,我說你再想清楚他說兩次,我說你死定了各位,這個都是有留下的記錄我說你死定了,為什麼?你根本隨時跟他見面嘛隨時跟他通電話嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
176.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
而總統跟總統在照政治操作違法監聽這個世界民主國家總統都下台了總統是憲法守護者所以我是要行使吊銳吊銳什麼吊銳通年紀錄到底馬英九跟黃毓民的通話通年紀錄這一吊銳出來真相大白馬英九是何時能看啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
177.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
199.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這官司他要跟我打嗎?是不是這樣?所以他很情人抵抗前,不提供就是不提供。後來,好像市民還曾經跟蘋果日報講說,他要跟委員長通話無助,通通要通文通緝。所以他要他的通聯紀錄就是如此啊,他既然提供也既然來啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
201.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
221.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以才有他們操作一個,才有一個大法官729解釋嘛,說政策中的案件不可以調研。要問的,這是一個國務區議事這樣走過來,黃國昌到底懂什麼?他以為抓到我小輩子可以在這裡打我一番,痛打一番,可是他沒有臨來面對我。第二個, |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
225.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
229.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文修正草案：立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
262.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
當然要朝野鄉一個月嘛。合作法立法院隨時讓這個案子本國會會改的這個法也不是在這裡審了啦。禮拜一國民黨也不要演這一套,進入二讀就馬上通過。今天當下朝野協商嗎?他幾個案例說進入二讀然後通過,那是朝野協商還未當下簽好的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
264.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
265.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
彭文昌彭文昌彭文昌彭文昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
290.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
314.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
希望他等一下進入主條的時候,我來跟他對這些問題。時間到了嗎?因為我黃班看不到。還有三分半。所以說今天我們是在講國會改革。國會改革的時候,就比喻說把收支金額組馬上通過,不可能的。請問你有這種手段,收支金額組可以,但是還要朝朝想一個月嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
315.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
當然是那種進入二族大家同意底下會馬上通過這是立法院最快速的一刻。那兩手緊急事項可能是條約案可能是大法院釋憲時間一年到了不趕快處理立法院會有失職守這方面很特別大家有共識的才會可能提出進入二族然後大家牽草而行讓他過去所以黃國昌故意忽略那一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
345.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
366.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
誰要說事情就叫幾個人來說所以今天我要在這裡用很短時間來告訴國務黨立委我剛才點出一個很重要的問題沒有程序正義決定沒有實質正義禮拜一天的所有程序全部違法我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
369.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
391.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
將來在議員會所如何表決?什麼我已經很科技危險地點出來,我沒有辦法明講。所有反對都要經過預決了。大法官三四二號解釋,大法官三四二號解釋,你為什麼要三四二?因為國安誤會了關係。當然國安法幾乎都在議員會表決處理的時候,黃金平院長馬上喊通過,沒有經過預決。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
393.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
408.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以道安上司要解釋說立法院所有的事情經過預決的話除非違反憲法那可以排除其他法律因為你這個是在修憲法案你可以這樣搞法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
410.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
430.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你所有程序,你反正這個程序沒有經過合法程序的話,沒有一件會通過,都是重來的。當然一律修也是重來,當然國務教會也是重來,因為大家衝突底下沒有辦法處理。我們昨天,我們禮拜四在非常充能合理的時間全部給你們,我們真的看你怎麼處理程序。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
431.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
458.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我重申委員新科委員他根本不瞭解他在這個地方犯到幾下錯誤也隱瞞一下國會改革無法在業外處理的忠誠性因素我剛才講說國民黨總召傅文綺委員馬上去大陸他以為安心可以走了他走到幹什麼幹的都委訓斷定都走完了我敬告各位國民黨委員在那天審查的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
459.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
488.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
面...面...秒情是無奈的,內心是掙扎的因為國民黨...國民黨的部分期判黃國昌搭這個私入列車要開往前來讓你們集體去跳樓這是一個...你們當那個違...違...違憲的兵馬俑共同埋葬嗎?這一刻你們都得好好想一想是怎麼搞的?因為...因為我眼睛紅斑齁我一直想走規矩啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
489.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
515.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
此事若無可奈何,亦要在治療中。所以,恍恍惚惚請國民黨委員,做到這一事,主席會否無奈,你自己副總召說啦。我總召就叫黃國昌兩個拔嘴一下,這是可以轉動台灣,轉動全世界,以為是這樣的,可不可以就是還沒掌控。請國民黨委員,你們未來要接受民意調查的這一刻,是你們最後檢驗時候。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
519.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
519.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
案。 |