| IVOD_ID |
151216 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151216 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-20-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-17T09:39:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-17T09:50:24+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c9080af7a956f53dcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c941b1b31f5abdde3215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳秉叡 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:39:05 - 09:50:24 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
220 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
吳委員秉叡：（9時39分）主席，麻煩請金管會黃主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：有請黃主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
吳委員秉叡：主委早。請問你是什麼時候開始擔任金管會主委的職務？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：2020年5月。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
吳委員秉叡：2020年的5月…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
吳委員秉叡：那到現在是多久的時間？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：3年11個月左右。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
吳委員秉叡：三年十一個月多，我在財政委員會今年是第13年啦！我從2012年開始就在財政委員會，一直到現在，都沒有離開過。我要非常肯定你，我認為這13年來我遇到過的金管會主委中，你是我心目中做的最好的、第一名，有為有守，然後又能夠很理性的針對問題來回答，務實的針對事情來處理，我在這裡給予你高度的肯定。當然，因為階段性的因素，現在已經發布了下一任的金管會主委，他在520之後會接任，你沒有辦法繼續在這邊為國家貢獻，我覺得這是我們國家一個重大的損失。也祝福你，謝謝有你這樣子的政官，讓我在財委員會這13年來看到一個非常棒的模範，在這裡跟你表達敬意。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
吳委員秉叡：再來就是要問今天會議議程的這個問題，其實有很多問題在你剛剛的回答時都已經講得很清楚了，在銀行之外，為什麼有一些民間借貸會產生？就是因為銀行的利率比較高，所以當然要求信用的風險要比較低，風險之所在就是利潤之所在，這些民間企業冒著比較高的風險做這些借貸，問題是有一些法令對他們的捆綁變成他們也要脫法，譬如公司法第十五條的規定，除非你跟公司之間有業務往來或是其他相關的規定，否則融資金額不能超過貸與公司淨值的40%嘛，所以就變成有很多事實上是在做融資的，但是為了規避這一條，它就用非融資的方式在解決，就是請這個當事人買來，然後再賣回去，然後再把這中間買來賣去的債權再轉讓給第三者，這中間會衍生非常多的問題，因為為了要脫這個法，所以一個最大的問題在哪裡呢？借貸者在法律知識以及金融需求上，他的地位明顯不等同於這些租賃公司或融資公司嘛，融資公司、租賃公司的法律能力好，而借款人對人有所求的時候，通常是站在一個比較低的位階，會任人要求，所以就會出現很多你剛剛講到的狀況。其實那些巧立名目的收費還不是只有違約金這個問題，因為違約金是民法的規定，除了利息之外，有時候他還要求要手續費，手續費之外又要服務費，另外違約金當然是有，還有的要設定費，如果車子被拖吊還有拖吊費，以及鑑價費、外訪費等等，他們立了一大堆的名目跟這個需要借貸的人拿這些手續費。所以民法雖然有規定利率以16%為限，超過16%的是自然債務，可是他不把這個算在利率以內，而是把這個算為行政程序所需的必要費用，他自己去發明一些收費的標準。像這樣的狀況，假設沒有一個主管機關主管，然後經濟部也只有管公司登記，常常出現的問題就是一定要等到消費者不堪、受不了了，來陳情、陳述了，浮出海面的冰山一角才會被看見啦！其實在海水底下更深的地方，更多的受害者是看不到的，這個不知道你有什麼樣的想法？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：委員指示的的確是目前社會上需要去重視的一個議題，當然，我也必須要跟您報告，因為長久以來金融監理體制的方法論是以機構別作為管理，有時候非屬金融專屬業務，就是吸收存款以外的，像授信這種，因為是一般社會都有不同的機構，它是屬於行為面的東西，所以你如果真的要把這些行為面的東西納入金融體系去監管，那個範圍一定要設定得很清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
吳委員秉叡：我也不贊成納入金融體系監管，但是你知道嗎，現在的社會氛圍就是發生了任何的困難，政府都要幫我解決啊，我賺不到錢是政府的錯啊，我怎麼樣努力，只要沒有得到很好的待遇，也都是政府的錯，所以現在的問題是社會的氛圍是這樣。如果以我讀法律一輩子的觀念，這個本來就是一種借貸行為，但問題是民法的設計是讓在權利、在知識、在法律能力上面相對等人之間訂定一個平等契約啦，當地位不相當的時候所訂定的契約不可能平等，對於這個部分，當然現在經濟部有消費者保護的部分可以做一點點彌補，可是更多的，我現在講的是更多的黑數其實是沒有來陳述的，消保這一邊可能也看不到啊。有很多人，在我當民意代表這麼多年的狀況之下，有很多爸爸媽媽心急小孩子的信用是不是會破產，一而再、再而三出來幫小孩清理這些債務，其實他的小孩都已經成年了，次數多到後來我還勸這個父母親說這樣不是辦法，要去跟兒子談清楚，因為每一次你都幫他解決、幫他擦屁股，他就在外面繼續弄，只要你幫他保護了他的信用，他辦張卡就可以借款，就可以先買後付，先享受後付款。有一位我很熟的我們新莊區的里長，我就不要講他的名字，他一連幫他兒子解決了四次，而且是幾乎每一、兩年就來找我一次，看要怎麼處理，所以對於這樣的狀況，我們應該要展現用什麼樣的方式去墊高消費者的知識能力、法律能力跟地位，讓他跟借貸公司之間至少能夠取得比較接近的、比較平等的地位，這樣民法體系才有辦法彰顯它的能力。這一點當然不是求責於金管會，而是你說得沒有錯，這是一個政府的整體問題，問題是會陷入這種低信用、債信不好或是說沒有辦法在正常金融體系得到融資的人，他本來的社會地位、社經地位就是比較弱勢，所以要多考慮這一部分，我的意思是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：我瞭解，其實金融的服務本來就是也要普惠，所以對於這種社經地位相對沒有那麼高的人，他在取得金融服務，不見得是從金融機構取得，我覺得要有一些通盤的教育或能力建構的一個機制。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
吳委員秉叡：你記不記得印度有一位諾貝爾得獎者就是普惠金融，他借很小的金額…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：好像是…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
吳委員秉叡：他借很小的金額，而且他是成立銀行喔。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：喔，那個事我知道…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
吳委員秉叡：他借很小的金額給人家去創業，當然因為印度那時候的經濟環境仍是用比較小的金額就可以創業的環境，要學習這樣子的精神啦。也就是說，我也鼓勵銀行，如果金額是很小的，他本身債信是沒有破產的，你在審查上面不應該那麼嚴格，因為你這個企業是以放貸來賺錢，你也是賺取利差嘛，但是對於金額很小的幾萬塊錢的借貸，如果能夠用普惠金融這種更高層次的觀念，一般人不會存心要來騙你幾萬塊啦，除非他的債信真的沒有辦法，債信沒有辦法，銀行有的是呆帳體系，這麼小的金額也有辦法來解決嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[19][1] |
所以我在這邊提出來，因為各公股銀行的董事長也在這裡，財政部長也在這邊，金管會的人也在這裡，我的意思是說，如果你能夠把金融體系的放貸範圍稍微再延伸出去一點，相對弱勢者的保護就會再往前一步，然後未來在消費者保護那一方面如何去墊高消費者的法律地位、法律能力、財務能力等等，讓他能夠在普通的借貸上形成一個平等的，我覺得這可能對我們今天這個議題會比較有幫助啦，不然你們的作法已經很好了，可是你無論怎麼做，他們這一批人既然要在這邊謀利，就會想出變形的方法繼續做。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
吳委員秉叡：你記不記得我們以前一開始要處理George & Mary現金借貸卡，後來又處理一連串金融危機的這些歷史過程，因為你一直都在金管會，所以你都瞭解嘛。我是覺得今天光從這個議題上面來談，如果要講的比較深一點的話，要從這個角度來思考啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][1] |
最後還是再一次的謝謝你為我們國家的貢獻，我覺得你這三年多來、將近四年的金管會主委的任期，對我們國家做出非常多的貢獻，在這裡表達感謝，謝謝你，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢，也辛苦黃主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][1] |
接著我們請賴士葆委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
148 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-20-8 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
吳秉叡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
鍾佳濱 |
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吳春城 |
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陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
81 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-17 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1132901 |
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1132901_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就
「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進
行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢 |
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主席麻煩請金管會黃主委有請黃主委委員長主委長請問你是什麼時候開始擔任金管會主委這個職務2020年5月2020年的5月那到現在是多久的時間 |
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3年11個月左右我在財政委員會今年是第13年我從2012年開始就在財政委員會到現在都沒有離開過我要非常肯定你我認為這13年來我遇到過的金管會主委你是我心目中做得最好的第一名 |
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有為有守又能夠很理性地針對問題回答然後務實地針對事情來處理我在這裡給予你高度的肯定當然因為階段性的因素 |
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現在已經發布下一任的金管會主委他5204會接任你沒有辦法繼續在這邊為國家貢獻我覺得這個是一個我們國家的一個重大的損失那也祝福你謝謝有你這樣子的責任觀讓我在這個財務委會這13年來看到一個非常棒的模範在這裡跟你表達敬意再來 |
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再來就是要問今天這個問題其實有很多的問題你剛剛的回答都已經講得很清楚了銀行為什麼有一些民間借貸會產生就是因為銀行的利率比較高所以他當然要求信用的風險要比較低風險之所在就是利潤之所在那這些民間企業冒著比較高的風險做這些借貸 |
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161.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
問題是有一些法令對他們的捆綁變成他們也要託法比如說公司法除非你跟公司業務是公司法第15條規定你跟他之間有業務往來或是其他相關的規定否則你待遇他的不能超過公司的禁止的40%嘛所以就變成有很多事實上是在做融資但是為了規避這一條他用非融資的方式在解決就是買來 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
164.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
191.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請這個當事人買來然後再賣回去然後再把這中間買來賣去的債權再轉讓給第三者這中間會衍生非常多的問題因為為了要脫這個法所以一個最大的問題在哪裡呢借貸者他在法律知識以及在金融的需求上他的地位明顯不等同於這些租賃公司或是融資公司嘛融資公司、租賃公司他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
193.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
214.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
在法律上的能力也好在借款人對人有所求的時候通常是站在一個比較低的位階會被任人要求所以就會出現很多你剛剛講到的狀況其實那些巧逆名目的收費還不是只有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
216.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
236.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委約金這個問題因為委約金也是民法的規定就除了利息之外有時候他要求要手續費然後手續費之外要服務費那另外委約金當然是有還有的要設定費如果車子被拖掉拖掉費、建架費、外訪費他立了一大堆的名目 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
238.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
262.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
要跟這個需要借貸人拿這些手續費所以民法雖然有規定利率16%違憲超過16%是自然債務可是他不把這個規律在不把這個算是在這個利率以內啊他把他這個算為行政程序所需要的費用他自己去發明一些收費的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
263.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
288.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那像這樣子的狀況假設沒有一個主管機關主管然後經濟部也只有管公司登記常常出現的問題是一定要等到消費者不堪受受不了了來陳情了來陳述了浮出冰山的海面的冰山一角才會被看見那其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
289.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
295.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
海水底下更深的地方更多的受害者是看不到的這個人不知道你有什麼樣的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
296.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
324.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
委員指示的的確是一個目前社會上需要去重視的一個議題那當然我必須要也跟您報告那因為長久以來金融監理體制的方法論是以機構別作為管理那有時候非屬金融專屬義務就是吸收存款以外的像獸性這種因為是一般社會都有不同的機構它是屬於行為面的東西所以你如果真的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
325.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
335.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
要讓這些行業內的東西要納入金融體系監管以它那個範圍一定要設定得很清楚我也不贊成納入金融體系監管但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
337.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
362.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你知道嗎現在的社會氛圍就是發生了任何的困難政府都要幫我解決啊我賺不到錢是政府的錯啊我怎麼樣努力我只要沒有得到很好的待遇也都是政府的錯所以現在一個問題是社會的氛圍是這樣如果以我讀法律一輩子的觀念這個本來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
363.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
385.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
一種借貸行為那但是問題是民法的設計啊它事實上在權力、在知識、在法律能力上面相對等人之間訂立的平等契約啦那這個當第1會不相當的時候訂立的契約不可能平等這個部分的時候當然我們現在經濟不由 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
415.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
消費者保護的這一部分可以做一點點彌補可是更多的我現在講的是更多的黑數是沒有來陳述的消保這一邊可能也看不到啊有很多人在我當民意代表這麼多年的狀況之下也有很多爸爸媽媽心急的小孩子的信用是不是會破產一而再再而三幫小孩出來清理這些債務其實他的小孩都已經成年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
417.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
438.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
次數多到後來我還勸這個父母親說你這樣不是辦法跟你兒子談清楚因為你每一次都幫他解決幫他擦屁股他就在外面繼續弄他只要你幫他保護了他的信用他的半張卡他就可以借款他就可以先買後付先享受後付款 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
439.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
461.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
曾經有這樣子的父很熟的我們新莊區的里長我就不要講他的名字一年幫他兒子解決了四次而且是幾乎每一兩年就要來找我一次要來怎麼處理所以我說像這樣的狀況就是說我們應該要來展現用什麼樣的方式去墊高消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
462.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
477.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
的知識能力法律能力跟地位讓跟借貸公司之間至少能夠取得比較接近的平台那比較平等的地位那這樣民法的體系才有辦法彰顯他的能力那這一點當然不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
479.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
498.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
求責於金管會而是你說的沒有錯這是一個政府的整體問題問題是會先用這種低信用債信不好或是說他沒有辦法在正常的金融體系得到融資的他本來的社會地位社經地位就是比較弱勢所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
501.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
504.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
要多考慮這一部分,我的意思是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
550.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你記不記得印度有一位諾貝爾的得獎者他去普惠金融他去借很小的金額借很小的金額而且他是成立銀行喔所以很小的金額讓人家去創業當然那是因為印度那時候的經濟環境還是比較小的金額就可以創業的環境要學習這樣子的精神也就是說我也鼓勵銀行如果金額是很小的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
552.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
572.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他本身債系是沒有破產的你在審查上面不應該那麼嚴格因為你這個企業你放貸作為借錢賺錢你也是賺取利差嘛但是如果經費很小的幾萬塊錢的借貸如果能夠有普惠金融更高一層次的觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
575.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
602.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一般的人不會存心要來騙你幾萬塊啦那除非他的債信真的沒有辦法那債信沒有辦法銀行有的是單賬體系他這麼小的金額他有辦法來解決嘛所以我是覺得說我在這邊講也是各位公股銀行的董事長也在這裡財政部長也在這邊金管委員也在這裡我在這裡意思說如果你能夠把金融體系的這個放貸的範圍稍微再延伸出去一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
605.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
611.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個相對弱勢的保護就會再多一就再往前一步然後這個未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
613.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
637.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在消費者保護那一方面如果去墊高消費者的社會這個法律的能力財務的能力等等讓他能夠在普通的借貸上形成一個平等的我覺得這可能對我們今天這個議題會比較有幫助了不然我們今天你們的做法已經很好了可是你無論怎麼做他們這一批人既然要在這邊謀利就會想出變形的方法繼續做是 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
639.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
655.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你記不記得我們以前一開始要處理George and Mary現金借貸卡那後來又處理一連串的金融危機的這些歷史的過程因為你一直都在金管會所以你都了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
657.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席 |