| IVOD_ID |
151038 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151038 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024040375 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「如何落實國會調查／聽證權以有效監督行政機關，並防範機密外洩危害國安」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-11T10:22:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-11T10:31:32+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b95bbed24269f4b613e511257e4f9dda4f8ba9b0039caa7a6e25638440f1b511c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:22:22 - 10:31:32 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「如何落實國會調查／聽證權以有效監督行政機關，並防範機密外洩危害國安」公聽會） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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非常感謝這麼多的學者專家來參與立法院第三次針對有關於國會聽證調查制度所召開的公聽會相信各位寶貴的意見都會記載在立法院公報裡面供本院全體的委員還有社會大眾做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
44.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
今天討論到一個非常重要的題目立法院在行使職權的時候怎麼樣去防止機密外洩這當然是一個重要而嚴肅的問題目前相關的法制上面剛剛劉書斌老師已經有從法律責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
74.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
自律的責任以及政治的責任三個層面來加以解析但我今天要跟大家分享的一個觀點是說在我國立法院行使職權的過程當中最經常出現的其實不是機密的洩漏而是行政機關自意的自意的用機密當作理由來遮蟲 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
76.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
100.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
來掩飾違法濫權的事實讓立法委員沒有辦法有效監督我為什麼會這樣說呢過去我接過太多行政機關回覆給我上面的公文都打一個密字我那時候就請教他們請問你們是依照國家機密保護法哪一條的規定在上面打密 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
101.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
127.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
他說這跟國家機密保護法沒有關係我們有一個公文書的製作手冊這個公文書的製作手冊上面賦予我們行政機關覺得是機密的時候可以在上面打一個密這個叫做一般公務機密這樣的回覆真是令人大開眼界我看以實際的例子來說明會比較清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
145.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這是一個什麼寒呢去年的時候本院上一屆立委陳婉蕙開始在追蹤有關於台研綠能所涉及的弊案在沒有得到經濟部同意之下前台研綠能的董事長陳啟玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
174.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
他可能因為關係非常的好他大膽到找了4家名股來參與台研綠能那接下來發生了各式各樣神奇的事情其中包括了裡面有個公司他是個土開公司後來專門成為台研綠能在外面的時候進行土開作業跟其他電業商合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
199.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
一個收入非常豐厚的手套而那個時候董事長他的家人還在這個鴻徽來工作其他三個參與的民股都陸陸續續在台研綠能整個拓展的過程當中得到非常多的好處那因此陳恆鴻委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
200.862 |
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222.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
他針對這件事情提出質詢了以後要求我們的經濟部進行調查經濟部回覆給他一個行政調查報告在左手邊大家可以看到當初經濟部回給他的調查報告上面打一個密字就是我剛剛所講的那個狀況代表這是秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
223.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
239.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這不能對外洩漏還有解密的期間那就讓大家覺得非常的困惑這到底是一個什麼樣子的秘密呢那但是我是一個念法律的人行政機關有那個臉皮在上面打密 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
240.467 |
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267.773 |
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那我就尊重所以我就任了以後我就再發一個函給經濟部要求經濟部就去年所做的那個行政調查報告在回覆陳晚會委員的報告當中的那個行政調查報告請他提供這個就是右手邊大家看到的公文我上個前4月3號拿到這個公文的時候我仔細的拜讀上面沒有密了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.809 |
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287.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
上面沒有密了 因為上面沒有密了 所以我才秀出來啊 給大家看那就很奇怪的事情啊 一模一樣的報告 一模一樣的內容一個有密 一個沒有密 請問標準在哪裡當一個國會議員 在監督這種濫用國家的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
292.741 |
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314.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
圖利自己人的爛事的時候要進行監督阿他拿到報告他不能講因為上面打了一個密還好我這次拿到的公文他上面沒有打密所以我看完了整份報告了以後我事實上覺得根本就應該要找經濟部針對這臭不可聞的弊案到國會來進行專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
318.203 |
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333.016 |
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這件事情台灣社會沒有什麼人知道這就是我們現在在立法院進行監督的日常那第二個狀況2022年我們去年的時候在炒的是巴西的雞蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
334.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
356.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
當我開始在追蹤這件事情的時候我發現我們2022年就開始在進口雞蛋我就累了以後我在2月20號發函請農業部提供2022年日本進口雞蛋的補助金額採購的數量廠商的名稱歷次進來的時間跟數量我從2月20號開始問問到今天問到今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
365.339 |
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385.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我們的農業部告訴我們的是說這個涉及到廠商的機密這個就讓我百思不得其解了用我們納稅的錢在前年的時候去買了雞蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
412.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
國會不能知道社會大眾也不能知道你雞蛋是跟誰買的買了多少錢都不能知道這是什麼天大的商業秘密啊接到這個廠商的名稱請問到底是危害了什麼國家安全請問到底是侵害了什麼營業秘密用秘密當作藉口 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
413.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
440.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
把一切成為黑箱運作陽光照不進去立法委員不能問不能看的藉口這個是台灣的民主嗎這個是我們現在的政府在面對國會監督的時候應該有的態度嗎最後這兩天啊開始在討論監察院跟立法院的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
441.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
446.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
說在監察院沒有廢紙以前我們不可以去侵害監察院的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
448.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
476.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
聽到這樣的論調又讓我想起來這件事情其實在2012年我們一樣本院針對立法院怎麼樣去行使我們的調查權跟聽證權的時候非常多的學者講得很清楚了特別是林濁水前委員我們民進黨的理論大師國會改革的權威者他說講出來的話陣容乏愧 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
477.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
488.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他說有人認為立法院的調查權跟監察院行使的調查權有爭議我認為這完全是威權體制下專制政黨誤導社會的一個論點 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
492.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
513.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
除了林卓水以外李俊逸也說了調查權本來就是立法院的職權我們現在沒有辦法透過修憲改變的時候我們至少應該要把國會的調查權以及實施調查權會用到的聽證制度給建立起來這個是在修憲以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不用修憲費監察院李俊逸委員提出這麼精闢的見解主席站起來了我必須要結束了最後借20秒最後讓我最敬佩的就是游美女委員她2012年的時候說得最好她說當某個政黨執政後她就不願意充實立法委員的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
538.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這是12年前說的話在2024年的今天再次敗毒啊令人陣容發愧啊非常非常的佩服謝謝大家 謝謝 |