| IVOD_ID |
150166 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150166 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-15-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-20T11:53:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-20T12:03:46+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192e0a4cd252e77cba6753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a697b2e0b8530c93875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:53:42 - 12:03:46 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
935 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時53分）主席、各位委員。有請部長還有原民會梅莊處長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請部長跟處長。 |
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林部長右昌：委員好。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，這個圖我已經引用了很多次，部長看過了，然後你也更熟悉這個地方都是山坡地，但是都可以蓋大樓，像基隆市中正區也是山坡地，都蓋了大樓，我們原住民部落那裡，也沒有那麼陡，但是基隆最典型的一樣都蓋了大樓，我們卻沒辦法蓋，連蓋房子都不能蓋，汐止區也是一樣，你看這個山都很陡。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
我們現在來看非都市土地使用管制規則第四十五條，這是現行的條文，本席一再希望除原住民保留地外，再增加原住民族部落一項，但內政部到現在都沒有修，理由是國土計劃法要實施。內政部的報告提到，為解決原住民族既有居住用地不足問題，要分階段實施，擬定原住民族土地使用管制規則，納入105年5月1日以前既有建物之合法機制，要訂定這個部分。為什麼既有建物之合法機制要以105年5月1日為時間點？我認為不合理！當然，你們以國土計劃法的公布實施時間為主。我們來看非都市土地使用管制規則，這是現行的：「且於本規則中華民國一百零八年二月十六日修正生效前，實際已作住宅使用者」，這都還規定得比較寬。我們來看國土計劃法，雖然105年5月1日施行，但全國的國土計劃卻是在兩年後，而直轄市、縣（市）的國土計劃，我們剛剛講，全國國土計劃是107年4月30日才公告，直轄市、縣（市）的國土計劃是在110年4月30日公告。法只是原則性的，所以你們都還沒有規定要怎麼規範、怎麼限制。因此，105年5月1日這個時間點要再做檢討，一定要放寬。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][2] |
我們看子法，你們預定今年年底要完成，我們當然希望能趕快，但要符合解決原住民族問題的前提，所以這部分要請部長及國土署、原民會注意，絕對不能同意採用105年5月1日為時間點。至於應調整既有建物合法機制的時間點，也就是剛才談的部分，部長，這部分還可以討論嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
林部長右昌：請吳署長說明一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，105年以前當然就直接依據規定辦理；105年以後，如同之前向委員說明過的，我們有透過一些輔導機制與整體規劃來解決…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒關係…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
吳署長欣修：因為那樣的話…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：署長，我來說明。區域計畫法的公布實施與非都市土地使用管理規則有很大落差，所以你參考過去的，好不好？這是可以討論的，沒有法律明定、沒有法律明定。部長，我是學法律的老公務員，不會隨便。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][1] |
有關原住民族土地使用管理規則，你們稱為管制規則或管理規則，其中第二章「原住民族部落居住……」這邊都寫部落，但是條文裡面全部限縮在原住民族土地，限縮在原住民族土地！第五條也是限縮在原住民族土地，第六條也是限縮在原住民族土地，甚至第七條限縮在原住民族保留地。國土計畫法第二十三條特別提到「涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制者」，應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理。原基法第二十一條有原住民族土地、部落及周邊一定範圍，所以這部分要再做檢討，不然沒辦法解決我們的問題，為什麼？因為原住民族土地只有傳統領域與既有的原住民族保留地，但傳統領域到現在只公告一個地方，也就是烏來區，這是原住民傳統領域。到現在已經八年了，原民會只公告一個地方，所以這部分沒有辦法落實，沒有辦法解決我們的問題！我希望能修非都市土地使用管制規則，沒想到這邊更慘，所以這部分一定要做修正。你看劃設辦法，原民會依原基法第二十一條所定的劃設辦法，就包含部落範圍的土地，所以這部分是可以納入的，包含土地建蔽率、容積率在內。我們先談管制規則，署長，是不是不要限縮於原住民族土地？我來說明好了。按照原基法所規定的原住民族土地，我剛講了，一個是傳統領域，但傳統領域現在只公告烏來區；第二個是原住民保留地，那就回到了非都市土地管制規則了，對不對？但這樣沒有更好，完全沒有辦法解決原住民族的現況！這部分我有寫出法律依據，所以你們就檢討修正。你們要趕快開會，回歸原基法，包含部落範圍及周邊一定範圍。其實依原基法訂定的劃設辦法也有提到部落範圍的土地。署長還是梅莊處長要報告嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
吳署長欣修：基本上我們會跟原民會持續保持這樣的作法。我知道委員很急，急著要趕快確認這些範圍，這部分我們會配合，原民會這邊也會來協助。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：讓署長還有部長再瞭解一下。部落裡面，尤其是平地原住民的部落有很多不是保留地，所以可能這個可以，但這個就都不行！尤其平地原住民部落的保留地很少，所以這個可以，但我的就不行！因此才會把部落範圍的土地納入，好不好？梅莊處長，加油！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
杜張處長梅莊：跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要加油爭取。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
杜張處長梅莊：原住民族土地的定義其實就是原保地與傳統領域，至於委員所擔心的，我們也有跟國土署協調，原則上我們會以目前所調查並公告在網路上的範圍來做原住民土地的認定。所以委員擔心的部分，原則上不太會發生，因為部落一定範圍內的土地，像花東地區，都是在傳統領域土地裡，我們目前大概是朝這樣的方向去協調。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在是這樣講，但那個都放在說明，我看了，你們放在說明裡面，所以實際上要執行的時候就完了，就慘了！如果是這樣，那乾脆把部落放進去，因為你們調查的也都在裡面，部落也在裡面。把部落二個字放進去，好不好？謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
林部長右昌：我們再研究，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：拜託，部長，這個很重要。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，謝謝部長跟署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][1] |
接下來我們請黃仁委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
146 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-15-7 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
張雅琳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
71 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-20 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1131601 |
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| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行
專題報告，並備質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席、國土委員：有請部長：還有演民會：梅莊署長請部長跟署長 委好部長我已經這個圖引用了很多次部長也看過然後你也更熟悉這個地方都是山坡地但是都可以蓋大樓基隆市中央區也是山坡地都蓋大樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
37.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
55.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們現在看這個非都市土地使用管制規則第45條這是現行的條文本席一再的希望把這個原住民保留地另外再增加原住民族部落但是這個到現在內政部都沒有修理由都是說因為國土計畫法要實施了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
98.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
內政部的報告裏面為解決原住民族既有基柱用地不足問題原住民基柱但是你們要分階段的來去實施然後要原定什麼原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
99.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
127.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
主土地使用管制規則然後這個希望第一個就是說105年5月1號以前既有建物資合法機制要訂定這個部分為什麼既有建物資合法機制要以105年5月1號為時間點我認為是不合理當然你們是以國土計畫法公佈實施的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
130.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
154.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好我們看這個非都市土地使用管制規則是現行的且以本規則中華民國108年2月26日修正生肖前實際以作住宅使用者這都還比較寬所以好我們來看國土計畫法雖然105年5月1號施行但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
155.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
167.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
全國的國土計畫是在兩年後然後呢直轄市縣市政府直轄市縣市的國土計畫我們剛剛講的全國國土計畫是107年4月30號才公告然後呢直轄市縣市的國土計畫是在110年4月30號公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
181.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
182.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們看這個執法 這個執法你們議定今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
202.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
214.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
今年年底要完成 都某是希望能夠趕快但是要符合要解決原住民族的問題 所以這個部分請部長還有國土署尤其菸米會你們絕對不要同意用105年5月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
225.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
231.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因調整既有介入合法機制的時間點就剛才談的那個部分那個部長這個部分還可以討論嗎這個請吳署長說明一下跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
241.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
241.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
7.1計畫法的公佈實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
262.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
280.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
跟非都市土地使用管制規則也有很大的落差所以你可以看參考過去的好不好是可以討論的這個不是沒有法律明定沒有法律明定部長我是寫法律的老公務員不會隨便那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
283.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
309.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個管理規則原住民族土地使用管理規則你們稱為管制規則還是管理規則這裡面第二章原住民族部落基柱基柱原住民族部落這邊都寫部落但是跑到裡面的條文全部限收在原住民族土地限收在原住民族土地限收在第5條也是限收在原住民族土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
311.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
333.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第6條也是限收在原住民族土地甚至第7條限收在原住民保留地我們看這個國土計畫法23條23條裏面特別提到涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制者因依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
336.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
341.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
原積法21條他有部落而原住民族土地有部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
342.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
368.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
還有桌邊一定範圍部落的桌邊一定範圍所以這個部分是要再做檢討啊不然的話沒辦法解決我們的問題啊為什麼呢因為原住民族土地啊只有傳統領域啊跟那個既有的原住民保留地啊那傳統領域到現在只有公告一個地方啊只有公告烏來契啊原住民傳統領域啊人民會現在已經8年了只有公告一個地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
369.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
385.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以這個部分沒辦法落實沒辦法解決我們的問題我也在希望去修非都市土地使用管制規則現在到這邊更慘了所以這個部分是一定要做修正的這個你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
387.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
405.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
畫設辦法嚮明會依延期法21條所定的畫設辦法就包含部落範圍土地所以這個部分是可以把它納入的所以包含這個土地的建壁率、容積率像這樣的我們先談這個我們先談這個管制規則裡面的管制規則好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
419.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
425.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席這個是不是不要限收在原住民族土地這個好 我來說原住民族土地按照原基法的規定我剛剛有講了一個是傳統禮儀那傳統禮儀現在只有公告那個只有污染器第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
446.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
450.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
原住民保留地那就回到非都市土用管制規則了對不對沒有更好啊完全沒有辦法解決原住民族現在的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
461.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
487.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以這個部分我都有立法律的依據所以你們就把它檢討修正反正你們趕快再開會就把它回歸到回歸到延期法包含部落包括部落範圍周邊一定範圍然後這個延期法依延期法訂定的這個劃設辦法也要提到部落範圍的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
部落裡面尤其是平地原住民的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
517.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
536.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有很多不是保留地啦這個可以這個我都不行尤其是平地原住民的部落保留地在部落裡面很少所以這個可以的我就不行所以才會要把部落放為土地納入進去好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
542.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
原住民族的土地他定義其實就是原保地跟那個傳統領域的部分那其實原則上剛委員擔心的那個我們也有跟那個國土署去協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
571.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
原則上我們會以我們目前所調查的這個所公告在網路上的那個範圍來做我們所謂原住民土地的認定所以原則上應該委員擔心的這部分是不太會發生因為這些部落一定範圍內像花東地區都是在傳統靈異土地裡面所以我們大概目前是朝這樣的方向協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
601.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
現在是這樣講,因為那個都是放在說明啊我看啊,你們放在說明裡面啊實際上要執行的時候就完了,就慘了那就乾脆,如果是這樣,乾脆把部落放進去啊因為你們調查的也都在那裡面啊部落也都在那裡面啊把部落這兩個字也拿進去啊好不好好,謝謝拜託部長,這個很重要 |