| IVOD_ID |
149699 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149699 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-15-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-11T12:21:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-11T12:30:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430073bc928f3360e91e43c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6a55a4cec380058055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:21:55 - 12:30:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
1166 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（12時22分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，請主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
李主任委員進勇：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
黃委員國昌：主委好。請教一下，公職人員在競選的期間，主要負責候選人申報的機關，是哪個機關？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
李主任委員進勇：申報？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
黃委員國昌：對，公職人員的財產。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
李主任委員進勇：財產申報是向我們選務機關申報。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
黃委員國昌：向選務機關申報嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
黃委員國昌：如果申報不實的話，由誰處罰？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
李主任委員進勇：也是選務機關來裁罰。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
黃委員國昌：也是選務機關來裁罰嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
黃委員國昌：OK，好。下一個問題，賴清德他萬里的老家，這一次總統財產的申報，為什麼只有土地沒有建物，他是建物所有權人，他完全沒有申報啊！我把資料調出來了啊！2024年總統大選總統候選人賴清德不動產的部分，只有土地沒有建物啊，這樣是不是財產申報不實？是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
李主任委員進勇：這個個案的情形，是不是由我們受理的政風單位來做說明？謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
張主任銘耀：委員好。其實依據我們公職人員財產申報法的施行細則，目前所指的不動產，是指有權狀跟稅籍資料的土地跟建物。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是什麼？他不用申報沒有關係，是這樣嗎？是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
張主任銘耀：目前的法規規定，這個沒有在申報的範圍之列。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！為了包庇特定的政治人物，曲解法律的原意，按照你中選會今天在這邊的解釋，我有財產喔！我有建物喔！我只要漏提不去做保存登記、不去做稅籍登記，我就可以不用申報，是這樣嗎？那個是不是財產、那個有沒有財產價值？沒有建物保存登記、沒有稅籍登記，就可以不用申報，今天中選會的立場是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
李主任委員進勇：相關查核的機制、規定…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃委員國昌：不用查核，他自己都承認是他的了，是要查核什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是由權責機關它訂定的…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃委員國昌：權責機關就是你們啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
李主任委員進勇：不是，財產申報還有另外的權責機關。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃委員國昌：我剛一開始不就問主委了嗎？候選人的申報跟處罰是不是中選會處理？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
李主任委員進勇：它的標準、查核的程序…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
黃委員國昌：我現在就是要挑戰你們的標準嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
李主任委員進勇：還是由權責機關…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
黃委員國昌：今天你中選會告訴大家的是沒有保存登記、沒有稅籍登記，雖然是財產、雖然是建物、雖然有財產價值，但可以不用申報，這是中選會的立場嗎？你只要說是不是就好啦，是不是中選會的立場？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我們根據…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
黃委員國昌：讓我們所有未來要參選公職的人可以有所遵循嘛！我只要賴皮啊！不用去做建物保存登記啊，也不用去做稅籍號碼的登記啊，我就可以不用申報財產！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我跟委員說明一下，這個權責固然是由中選會來做處理，但是相關的標準、申報的程序，還是由權責…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，你扯標準，那我們就來看標準，來，看一下，法務部廉政署新版公職人員財產申報系統申報人端操作簡介，它怎麼教大家的啊？它教大家的是沒有做建物保存登記的，要先申報什麼？申報門牌號碼。請教一下，賴清德那個家有沒有門牌號碼，有還是沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
李主任委員進勇：好，請政風單位。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
黃委員國昌：有還是沒有門牌號碼？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
張主任銘耀：有門牌號碼。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
黃委員國昌：有門牌號碼為什麼可以不用申報？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
張主任銘耀：報告委員，這個還是依照法規施行細則的規定…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你的意思就是說法務部廉政署要求所有候選人並教他們怎麼填寫，這個填寫的說明是錯的嘛！它應該跟大家講啊，沒有建物保存登記，不用寫門牌號碼，它上面寫的是什麼？沒有登記，要寫門牌號碼欸！按照你們的理解，法務部是不是教所有候選人都教錯了？按照你們今天的說明，還有上面法務部廉政署教所有候選人怎麼填寫的，全部都寫錯了，要回去澈底檢討反省，不是嗎？來，我們來看一下，房屋未登記應填寫門牌號碼，並加註是沒有登記的建物，如果沒有門牌號碼，就寫什麼？稅籍號碼。這個不是法務部廉政署，你剛剛所講的標準的主管機關教大家的嗎？這個上面是不是寫錯了？按照中選會，目前你們是執法機關喔！按照執法機關的見解，是不是寫錯了？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
張主任銘耀：報告委員，它目前跟法規是一致的…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
黃委員國昌：跟法規是一致？來，來，來，看一下，沒有登記應填寫門牌號碼，我有講錯嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
李主任委員進勇：報告委員，我不敢說你講錯，是不是讓我們政風單位能夠比較完整的說明一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
黃委員國昌：可以，請說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
張主任銘耀：目前法規的規定就是說，如果你未登記建物的話是要填寫門牌號碼，並加註如果是未登記建物的話……其實它最主要是後面，都應該要填寫它的稅籍號碼。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
黃委員國昌：沒有嘛！剛剛主委要我給你時間說明，你不要挑戰大家中文閱讀的能力喔！主委是大律師啊，主委是大律師啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
李主任委員進勇：沒有，不當律師已經很久了。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
黃委員國昌：來看一下，未登記應填寫門牌號碼，並加註是未登記建物，這個中文有這麼難理解嗎？這個中文有這麼難理解嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
李主任委員進勇：報告委員，這個之間可能執行單位跟他們業管的部分，大家的溝通是不是有一些出入，我們再跟廉政署來做一個確認…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，很好。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
李主任委員進勇：確認的結果，我們再回復給您，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，拜託主委去跟廉政署問清楚，今天我們中華民國法務部廉政署的標準是什麼？沒有登記，賴著不去做稅籍登記，即使是我的財產都不用申報，臺灣啊！臺灣啊！我很贊同主委講了一句話「臺灣的民主法治彌足珍貴」，作為一個法律人，我只有一個要求，貫徹法律的規範，不要因人設事。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我們先來做確認…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
黃委員國昌：好！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
李主任委員進勇：現在先做論斷可能還不夠啦！所以我們會把確認的結果再跟委員做回復。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
黃委員國昌：我問最後一個問題，依照公職人員財產申報法的立法目的跟立法意旨，主委您覺得，那個房子就在那邊，有財產價值，只要我不去做門牌登記，我不繳稅、我也不申請稅籍號碼，就可以不要申報，這樣對嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我稍微瞭解，就是申報的財產還是有它一定的標準，這個標準具體是到哪一個範圍我不敢講，我不敢講，但並不是所有的財產一律都要申報。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
黃委員國昌：有這麼具體的財產價值，不在申報的範圍當中？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
李主任委員進勇：所以我們再做確認好不好？我們再來做確認。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
主席：謝謝我們黃國昌委員的質詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][1] |
下一位我們請蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][2] |
陳俊宇、陳俊宇，陳俊宇委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][3] |
登記發言的委員，除了不在場的之外，其餘均發言完畢，詢答結束。委員麥玉珍、蘇巧慧、王鴻薇、林俊憲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未答詢部分，請相關機關一週內以書面答復並副知本會。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
270 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-15-5 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
蘇清泉 |
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李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
張啓楷 |
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楊瓊瓔 |
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黃國昌 |
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麥玉珍 |
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蘇巧慧 |
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王鴻薇 |
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林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
193 |
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2024-03-11 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
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立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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謝謝主席：有請主委請主委委員好主委好請教一下公主委員在競選的期間候選人他主要申報要負責的機關是哪個機關申報對公主委員的財產財產申報是向我們選務機關申報向選務機關申報那如果申報不實的話又誰處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
37.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
38.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.011 |
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這個個案的情形是不是由我們受理的政風單位來做說明?謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
85.403 |
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委員好那其實這個依據我們公職人員財產申報法的施行細則那目前它所指的不動產是指有權狀跟稅籍資料的土地跟建物所以你們意義是什麼?它不用申報沒有關係是這樣嗎?是這樣嗎?目前的法規規定這個是沒有在申報的範圍之列 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
111.323 |
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122.367 |
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為了包庇特定的政治人物驅逐法律的民意按照你中選會今天在這邊的指示我有財產嗎?我有資格嗎?我只是落體我不去做保存登記我不去做稅籍登記我就可以不用申報?是這樣嗎?那個是不是財產?那個有沒有財產價值? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
141.668 |
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沒有專業寶床登記．沒有選舉登記．就可以不用申報．參觀中選會的立場．是這樣嗎相關的查核．的這個機制規定不用查核．那是我的承認是他的人．是要查核什麼是由權責機關他奠定的權責機關就是你們嗎不是那個猜戰申報還有另外的這個權責機關我剛一開始你就用指引來了嗎是 |
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165.444 |
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候選人的申報跟處罰是不是中選會的處理?我現在就是在挑戰你們的標準啊!今天的中選會告訴大家的是沒有保存登記沒有收集登記雖然是產產雖然是購入雖然有產產價值就可以當申報我願不說這是中選會的立場嗎?你只要說是不是就好了 |
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我跟委員說明一下齁這個權責固然是由中選會來做處理但是相關的標準沒有啦沒有什麼標準沒有那就來看標準啦來看一下 |
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有門牌號嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
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報告委員這個還是依照法規施行細則的規定他不...所以你的意思是說法務部門站署要求所有候選人知道他要怎麼填寫這個填寫的說明是錯的嘛他應該要跟大家講啊沒有建物保存登記不用寫門牌號碼他上面寫的是什麼沒有登記要寫門牌號碼欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
282.145 |
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285.654 |
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按照你們的理解法務部是不是教所有的候選人都教錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
287.895 |
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按照你們今天的說明上面啊這個法務部廉政署教所有候選人怎麼填寫的全部都寫錯啦要回去徹底檢討反省啊不是嗎來我來看一下房屋未登記應填寫門牌號碼並加注視沒有登記的建物如果沒有門牌號碼就寫什麼稅金號碼 |
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313.75 |
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這個不是法務部廉政署你剛所講的標準的主管機關教大家的嗎這個上面是不是寫錯了按照中選會目前喔你們是執法機關喔按照執法機關的見解是不是寫錯了報告員他目前並沒有跟法規是一致的跟法規是一致來來來看一下沒有登記應填寫門牌號碼 |
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344.815 |
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我有講錯嗎報告委員我不敢說你講錯齁是不是讓我們政風單位能夠比較完整的說明一下可以請說明他目前法規的規定就是說如果你沒有未登記建物的話是要填寫門牌號碼然後並加注如果是未登記建物的話也其實他最主要後面都應該要填寫他的稅籍號碼沒有嘛剛剛主委要我給你時間說明嘛你不要挑戰大家中文閱讀的能力喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
374.635 |
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388.628 |
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主委是大律師啊主委是大律師啊來看一下未登記應填寫門牌號碼並加注是未登記件物這個中文有這麼難理解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
390.131 |
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391.532 |
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今天我們中華民國法務部廉政署的標準是什麼沒有登記 |
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417.172 |
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431.403 |
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賴著不去做稅籍登記即使是我的財產都不用申報臺灣啊臺灣啊我很贊同主委講的一句話臺灣的民主法治泥足珍貴作為一個法律人我只有一個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
433.982 |
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450.934 |
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貫徹法律的規範不要因人設事我們先來做確認好現在先做論斷可能還不夠所以我們會把確認的結果再跟委員做回覆我只問最後一個問題依照公職委員財產申報法的立法目的跟立法意旨主委您覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
453.243 |
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475.365 |
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那個房子就在那邊喔有財產價值喔只要我不去做門牌登記我也不繳稅我也不申請稅籍號碼就可以不要申報這樣對嗎我頗頗了解就是說申報的財產還是有它一定的標準這個標準具體的是到哪一個範圍我不敢講但是並不是所有的財產一律都要申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
477.369 |
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477.389 |
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黃國昌議員 |