| IVOD_ID |
149560 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149560 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T12:03:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T12:12:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbebdafe1f21068d759aaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a6db95e054bd3dacb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃珊珊 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:03:01 - 12:12:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
1571 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員珊珊：（12時3分）好，謝謝主席。部長剛剛講到棄保潛逃罪，你說108年送到行政院，有沒有送到立法院？ |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
蔡部長清祥：還沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃委員珊珊：108年送的，現在是113年，所以行政院是不想提，是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
蔡部長清祥：沒有，已經很密集地開會，開了很多次會來審議。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃委員珊珊：5年了耶，開了5年的會，棄保潛逃，法務部很認真，行政院不提就對了，是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
蔡部長清祥：它有它的考量。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃委員珊珊：你今天的結論是這一句話？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
蔡部長清祥：不是，我們說該做的事情我們已經做了。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
黃委員珊珊：所以民眾黨團已經幫你提了。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
蔡部長清祥：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
黃委員珊珊：這個會期，我想司法及法制委員會這邊，各個黨團應該都支持，所以這個會期你們會不會像行政院一樣，繼續怠惰到5年後再來審？還是以你的立場你會願意？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
蔡部長清祥：委員會這邊如果排審的話，當然我們會配合來說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
黃委員珊珊：你們會支持、你們會配合。那行政院為什麼沒有送出來？沒有共識？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
蔡部長清祥：他們要徵詢各方的意見再考量。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
黃委員珊珊：因為徵詢各方的意見，所以就發生剛剛講的朱國榮案。我們大家都念法律，都知道重點在於，第一個，棄保潛逃沒有因為這樣而接受到進一步的處罰，所以大家都棄保潛逃；第二個，他回來執行之後，也不會因為這樣子減少他的假釋門檻或接下去的刑罰執行，對吧？所以他無所謂，跑了，損失點錢，再抓回來，還是一樣，日子一樣過。部長，這叫做司法公信力？這個損失不是抓回一、兩個潛逃的人可以扳回來的，你同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我同意啊，所以我們要加強來防止。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃委員珊珊：棄保潛逃罪的法案在立法院我們提出來，我也希望法務部這邊的態度是正面的，然後我們在委員會審查的時候，如果沒有爭議的話，應該是很快會通過，所以我也想知道行政院阻礙的原因，是不是也可以給我一個你們開了七、八次會的相關會議紀錄，我們來研究一下，好不好？好嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們內部的討論會議，當然…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃委員珊珊：就是有關為什麼、問題出在哪裡、原因為何，在什麼樣的狀況下，對於棄保潛逃相關法案的推動，5年都沒有辦法有進展，請你給我一個說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
蔡部長清祥：這我沒有辦法替…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃委員珊珊：沒關係，我要知道你們開了幾次會，給我大事記就好了，好不好？你們做了哪些事，我要知道的是過程。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][1] |
接下來談剛剛很多的委員在提的打詐，臺灣已經成為詐騙製造業，我相信這對我們來說都是非常難堪的。剛剛部長講了很多，為了打詐，我們要增加人力、要給它很多的設備或者給它很多的配置。但是現在問題是前面的事情不處理，你加再多人也沒什麼用，對吧？如果前面的金流、前面防詐的過程做得更多更好一些，你就不用這麼累吧。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我同意，就是要全面性來防堵。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃委員珊珊：好。部長，因為現在看起來不管是電信詐欺或者投資詐騙，其實已經有很多新興的手段，其中一部分是以前大部分都會用銀行，現在已經用到虛擬貨幣的交易來做詐騙的金流，對吧，目前案子多不多？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蔡部長清祥：是有發現這樣的案例。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃委員珊珊：所以說虛擬貨幣在臺灣是有相關經過金管會管理的業者，他們其實一直希望建立一個反詐平台，因為他們跟銀行一樣有帳戶、有異常交易，他們也想通報。可是部長，你知道，他們現在跟刑事局、調查局其實都有很好的合作叫做VASP，就是虛擬資產平台；他們跟警政署有一支API，跟調查局有另外一支API，跟銀行之間可以通報，但是沒有正式的公投管道，165平台警察局的派出所會跟VASP的業者通報，但是他們現在是用傳真機，我們好像已經很久沒有在用傳真機了。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][1] |
部長，我現在有一個問題，詐欺犯能不能抓到是一個狀況，其實民眾更關心的是被詐騙的金額能不能要回來，抓到他，然後他兩手一攤一毛錢也沒有，強制執行也不可能有錢，錢抓不回來，這個詐騙就算抓到車手、就算抓到人頭帳戶還是沒有意義，你同意吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我同意啊，我們盡力來追回這些贓款…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
黃委員珊珊：所以我要說的是這個虛擬資產平台其實很想建立一個跟警方、檢方、調查局，甚至跟派出所溝通的平台，但目前為止他們都要一對一的去做聯絡。昨天我有跟數發部長唐鳳部長討論，政府是不是可以協助成立這樣的一個通報平台，因為目前聯防平台包括165也跟它有連線，但是一樣要一對一，而且要透過傳真機。這個時代還用傳真機的單位不多啦，如果有相關溝通平台的話，可能可以加速所謂的通報，加速虛擬資產業者凍結異常帳戶，如果我們能夠把錢凍下來就可以把錢要回來，如果我們的速度比詐騙集團慢，錢就永遠要不回來。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][1] |
部長，我現在要求如果可能的話你們請數發部協助，昨天唐鳳部長說他也希望能夠協助建立這個平台。建立這個平台有兩個問題，第一個是維護的問題、第二個是將來人力的配置要怎麼樣去管制。我認為法務部如果一直在後端增加檢察官的人力，增加相關的後端的處理，不如協助他們在前端包括調查局、刑事局這些單位跟虛擬資產平台先做一個通報機制，銀行現在應該有，但是銀行通報完了還是到我們的165這邊，還是一個比較傳統的路徑，要花很多時間，然後再去凍結，可能已經來不及了。對於這部分是不是請部長跟數發部來合作研議一下怎麼樣把錢及早凍結，這些業者也願意來配合，我想這才是打詐，讓詐騙集團沒有辦法那麼快地得逞，後端才不會有這麼多的案件，我覺得源頭管理比較重要。部長可不可以跟數發部研究一下？其實唐鳳部長滿願意做這件事，而且業者也非常想要做，但是現在他們還是只能一對一，我對地檢署、我對刑事局、我對派出所。這三個，他們想做可是可能需要公部門的協助。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的建議，我們很樂意跟數發部甚至內政部大家一起來，內政部所屬的刑事警察局，還有法務部的調查局，甚至金管會也可以拉進來，這個是為人民好的，我想我們可以積極的來…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
黃委員珊珊：是的，因為現在的平台目前為止都是個別處理，另外就是虛擬資產業者在臺灣目前合法登記有25家，但是有更多的是在境外，他們在臺灣沒有相關的工具，但他們也非常願意協助。我們把這些國人有實際在使用的虛擬資產平台及發生過詐騙的案件，希望都能夠納進來讓平台有一個通報的機制，能夠及早凍結轉出才有辦法幫被害人要回被詐騙的金額，否則永遠只抓到車手，只抓到人頭帳戶，沒有辦法嚇阻詐騙集團的繼續猖獗。所以拜託部長，我希望可以在1個月左右給我一個初步的、你們可以怎麼樣去協助這兩、三個部會一起討論這件事情的報告，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
蔡部長清祥：是，這我們應該做的，我們會很快的來跟數發部…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
黃委員珊珊：好，請你1個月內給我一個初步的規劃跟回報，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
主席：好，那我們接下來請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][1] |
請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][2] |
請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][3] |
請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][4] |
請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][5] |
接下來請沈發惠委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
132 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-4 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
吳思瑤 |
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翁曉玲 |
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傅崐萁 |
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楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
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王世堅 |
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黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
沈發惠 |
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羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
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2024-03-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130901 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄 |
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邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢 |
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SPEAKER_00 |
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534.49596875 |
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SPEAKER_01 |
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534.51284375 |
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SPEAKER_00 |
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534.52971875 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席我想部長剛剛講到棄保潛逃罪你說108年送過來那到行政院有沒有送到立法院還沒有108現在是113所以行政院是不想提是嗎沒有已經很密集的開會開了五年都還不知道來審議五年咧開了五年的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
39.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
氣保潛逃﹑法務部很認真﹑行政院不提﹑就對了?是嗎?現在今天的結論是這句話?所以民眾黨團已經幫你提了這個會期我想司法法制委員會這邊各個黨團應該都支持所以這個會期你們會不會像行政院一樣繼續帶舵到5年後再來審? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
59.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
委員會這邊如果排審的話當然我們會樂意的來說明那行政院為什麼沒有送出來徵詢各方的意見在考量所以徵詢各方的意見就發生剛剛講的出國容 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
73.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
李慧琼議員李慧琼議員李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
94.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
你同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
110.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
112.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我同意,所以我們要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
138.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
為什麼問題出在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
138.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
139.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
原因為何? |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
139.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
144.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
什麼樣的狀況下對於氣保潛逃五年都沒有辦法有進展? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
144.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
151.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這是請你給我一個回報 說明沒關係 我要知道你們開了幾次會 給我大事記就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
152.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
152.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
打詐：打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
176.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
176.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我同意就是要全面性的來防堵啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
195.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
195.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
216.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
243.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
虛擬貨幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
244.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
244.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
266.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
292.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他們現在的方式是用傳真機傳真機我們好像很久已經沒有用到傳真機了部長我現在就有一個問題詐欺犯能不能抓到是一個狀況其實民眾更關心的是我被詐騙的金額能不能要回來抓到他然後他兩手一攤一毛錢也沒有強制執行也不可能有錢錢抓不回來這個詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
294.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
296.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
昨天我有跟蘇巴部長、唐鳳部長討論其實政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
324.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
324.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
342.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
342.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
360.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
361.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
381.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
382.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
407.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
429.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
通報完了還是到我們的165這邊他還是一個比較傳統的路徑要花很多時間然後再去凍結的時候可能已經來不及了所以部長對於這個部分的是不是可以請你跟速發部來合作研議一下這些業者也願意來配合怎麼樣把錢能夠及早凍結我想才是打詐讓詐騙集團沒有辦法那麼快的得逞 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
434.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
434.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
454.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
469.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這三個東西他們想做但是可能需要公部門的協助謝謝委員的建議我們很樂意跟速發部甚至內政部大家一起來內政部所屬的刑事警察局還有我們服務部調查局 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
470.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
471.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有實際國人在使用的虛擬資產平臺然後發生過詐騙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
499.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
501.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以部長拜託我希望這個狀況是不是可以在一個月左右給我一個初步的你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
526.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
527.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
請你一個月內給我一個初步的規劃跟回報謝謝 |