| IVOD_ID |
149556 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149556 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T11:54:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T12:02:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe33326baa5840e18aaaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a6b927b96357d7ed705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王世堅 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:54:13 - 12:02:49 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
1562 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
王委員世堅：（11時54分）謝謝主席。部長，其實我第一次坐著質詢，坐下來火氣就減了一半，加上我跟部長又是舊識，另外一半也不見了，所以我們今天就好好來討論一個問題。你在法務部也7年了，任期最長的部會首長中，你可能是最久的，關於棄保潛逃這件事情，尤其這些重大的犯罪，不管是經濟犯罪或其他犯罪，這是社會最無法接受的事情。我就講朱國榮這件案子，你看，他判刑十幾年，他那麼多條罪，在社會眾目睽睽之下，他竟然繳交了5億元的重保之後棄保潛逃，他還不是坐鐵桶出去的，他是搭豪華遊艇出去，天啊！然後我們竟然是事後4天之後才發覺。所以我要問你，到底我們的防逃機制有沒有建立？我們的防逃機制有沒有建立？現在國內有8萬個通緝犯，然後有8,000位潛逃出國。剛剛講的朱國榮，他繳5億元之後輕輕鬆鬆跑掉，這5億元變成是他買的贖罪券，他繳了這5億以後，贖罪券買了以後，我們就讓他可以自由進出，如入無人之境。在這一個部分，法務部在防逃機制建立的這個部分，我用八個字形容，就是「束手無策，一籌莫展」，稍微可以用的，你們又顧忌，說人權團體會發聲，說用電子腳環就好，你們又說這涉及人權的問題。奇怪了，我們政府這麼多年來都重視加害者的人權，那被害者還有我們無辜的民眾又是如何的看法？他捲款上百億跑掉，受到損失的，除了直接受害者以外，還有間接的受害者，就是我們2,300萬國民，所以類似這種重大的經濟罪犯潛逃出國的話，不但斲傷了司法威信，更是讓我們全民對司法正義的期待澈底幻滅，如果我們能夠建立好這個機制，至少給全民看到司法是有正義的。法律要對強者有效，社會才有公平正義，法律要能夠制裁、懲戒這些惡劣者，社會才有公平正義，不是這樣嗎？法律不是用來對付升斗小民，不是對付手無縛雞之力的弱小者，不是這樣。但是我們在層層所謂對人權的保護及大家的怠惰之下，就覺得跑了就跑了，不然要怎樣？過去竟然有人說，對啦，他跑了，但是人總是會死的，他早晚也會老死。天啊！司法的正義要靠讓天處罰這些犯罪者，說老了就會死掉了，那不是廢話嗎？那何謂司法正義？ |
| gazette.blocks[0][1] |
針對這個部分我希望，第一點，部長，你看過很多防逃機制，很可能我們各黨各派都有相對的提案，我希望看到在部長主導之下提出院版的防逃機制，院版的防逃機制法案是什麼？比方說，對有人權爭議的電子腳環，態度是什麼？至少加了這個，他沒辦法去上豪華遊艇吧，不是嗎？針對這個部分，我希望看到院版的法案是什麼、對策是什麼。第二點，對於這麼多還在審理中或已判決的，其中極可能有潛逃出國疑慮者，你們是不是要想方設法，趕快有一個積極的做法對應？以法務部的權責，你們可以指揮全國的檢調、全國的警察，甚至可以要求海巡來配合、來幫忙。天啊！我看那一天，你們可能這種通令根本不夠，也疏忽掉，我看朱國榮搭著豪華遊艇出國的時候，海巡看到他也不知道，搞不好還跟他打招呼，因為他搭的不是中共的黑船，不是嗎？所以這個事情已經到了荒唐的地步，所以我再一次強調，不能讓這些重大犯罪者，尤其是經濟犯罪者，買了贖罪券就跑了。另外，法務部還有一個聲音說，反正他繳了5億，已經把他懲罰了。本來我們民間一直有一個呼聲，希望推動棄保潛逃罪，加重刑責，結果我竟然聽到法務部部分聲音說一罪不兩罰，都已經沒收保金了，還罰什麼罰呢？那就如我講的，這些保金不管多重、金額多大，那就是買贖罪券的觀念。天啊！那麼司法正義在哪裡？所以部長，針對這一點，我希望你能夠積極地有作為、有回應。我也拜託主席，不好意思，是不是給部長幾十秒，讓他回應一下，好嗎？拜託。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的指教。委員關心的這個議題，我們其實很早就有行動，不管是在法制面或是在執行面，都有採取一些相關的措施。在法制面，針對棄保潛逃罪，我們在108年就提出一個草案，108年就已經送到行政院去審查；在執行面，在法律還沒有有效遏止之前，我們也有電子監控的措施，朱國榮的個案因為是在法院審理中，當然我們可以建議法院應該要多採取電子監控，如果交保的話，多採取電子監控，因為原來是只有要求他報到而已，而只有報到是不夠的，能夠再施以電子監控那是更好。如果在偵查中，我們對於要嚴懲這種幫派組織犯罪或是重大的金融犯罪，一定要嚴格來蒐證，來聲請羈押，萬一聲請羈押法官不准的話，我們就要施以電子監控這樣的防範措施，這個我們都會考慮，不過委員的建議，我們還會再深入地加強。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
王委員世堅：好。我希望重建我們的司法威信。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
接下來我們請陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][2] |
接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
132 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-4 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
王世堅 |
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黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
羅智強 |
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1 |
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2024-03-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130901 |
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1130901_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢 |
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謝謝主席部長其實我頭一次做這個質詢坐下來火氣就減了一半加上部長我們又是舊式另外一半也不見了所以我們今天就好好來討論一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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那你在法務部也7年了大概任期最長的部委首長你可能是最久的就是關於棄保潛逃的這件事情那麼尤其這些重大的犯罪重大不管是經濟犯罪或其他犯罪這是社會最無法接受的事情我就講朱國榮這件案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.652 |
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你看去年他判刑十幾年他那麼多條罪那麼社會眾目睽睽之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
58.905 |
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83.445 |
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那他竟然繳交了五億元的重寶之後那氣泡潛逃他還不是做那個鐵殼 鐵湯下去的他是搭豪華遊艇出去天啊 然後我們竟然是事後 四天之後才發覺啦所以我要問你的就是說 到底我們的防逃機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
85.613 |
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113.083 |
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我們現在國內有八萬個通緝犯然後有八千位潛逃出國剛剛講的那個朱國榮他繳五億元之後輕輕鬆鬆跑掉這五億元變成是他買的贖罪券他繳了這五億以後 贖罪券買了以後我們就讓他可以自由進出如入無人之境 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
114.579 |
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135.175 |
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那我八個字形容我們在這一個部分法務部在如何防逃機制的建立這個部分我八個字形容就是束手無策一籌莫展 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
137.029 |
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165.834 |
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數所無策一籌募債那稍微可以用的你們又顧忌說啊有聲音啊人權團體在講電子繳還就好你們又說這個人權的問題奇怪啦我們政府這麼多年來都重視加害者的人權啊那被害者還有我們無辜的民眾們是如何的看法他捲款上百億跑掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
167.958 |
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195.591 |
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這個損失的除了直接受害者以外還有間接的我們2300萬國民所以類似這種重大的經濟罪犯潛逃出國的話這不但扼傷了司法威信這更是讓我們全民對司法正義的期待徹底的幻滅徹底的幻滅 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.997 |
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214.903 |
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如果我們能夠建立好這個機制那至少給全民看到說司法是有正義的法律要對強者有效社會才有公平正義法律要能夠制裁懲戒這些惡劣者 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
222.538 |
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249.9 |
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社會才有公平正義不是這樣嗎?法律不是用來對付生抖小民對付那個手無縛肌之力的弱小者不是這樣欸但是我們在層層的所謂人權吶還有大家的怠惰之下啊跑了就跑了不然要怎樣啊竟然過去竟然有說對啦跑了啦吼但是啊這個吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
251.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
275.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
人總是會死的嘛他早晚也會老死啦天啊司法的正義要靠這些犯罪者讓天處罰說吃到老老死去那不是廢話嗎那何謂司法正義所以我認為這個部分我希望那個部長第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.622 |
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295.268 |
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你看過很多這些防逃機制很可能我們各黨各派都有相對的提案我希望看到部長以你主導之下願版的防逃機制法案是什麼比方說我們對這個所謂有人權爭議的這個電子腳環那我們的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
304.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
331.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
至少加了這個他沒辦法去上豪華遊艇吧不是嗎那這個部分我希望看到說院版的法案是什麼對策是什麼第二點對這麼多還可能在審理中或者已經判決的極可能有潛逃出國疑慮者 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
333.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
351.282 |
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那是不是你們要想方設法趕快有一個積極的做法對應因為法務部以你們的權責你們可以指揮全國的檢調全國的警察甚至可以要求海巡來配合來幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
352.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
376.366 |
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天吶我看那天你們可能這種通令根本不夠也疏忽掉我看朱國榮搭著豪華潛艇出國的時候海星看到他也不知道搞不好還跟他打招呼勒因為他不是中共的黑船嗎不是嗎所以這是這個事情已經到了荒唐的地步啦荒唐的地步所以我再一次的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
378.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
379.046 |
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法務部還有一個聲音喔還有一個聲音說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
393.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
416.238 |
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這個反正他繳了嘛 繳了無益了齁 這個已經把他懲罰了本來啊 我們民間一直有一個呼聲說 欸 希望來推動有一個棄保潛逃罪加重他的刑責 結果會反對的竟然我聽到的是法務部部分的聲音說 一罪不兩罰還都已經把他沒收保金了 還罰什麼罰呢那就我講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
419.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
439.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那這些保金不管多重金額多大那就是買贖罪券的觀念喔天啊那這個司法正義在哪裡所以部長我希望這一點你能夠積極的有作為有回應那我也拜託主席不好意思是不是幾十秒給部長回應一下好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
442.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
463.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝委員的指教委員關心的這個議題我們其實很早不管在法制面或是在執行面都有採取一些相關的措施法制面棄保潛逃罪我們在108年就提出了一個草案出來了108年就已經送到行政院去審查那執行面在 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
487.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法律還沒有有效的遏止之前我們也是有電子監控這樣的措施那朱國隆的個案因為是在法院審理中嘛這個當然我們可以建議法院應該要多採取如果交保的話多採取電子監控因為他原來是只有報導而已啦報導是不夠的能夠再施以電子監控那是更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
488.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
488.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我希望重建我們的司法威信謝謝 |