| IVOD_ID |
149530 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149530 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T11:21:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T11:31:18+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe3b035a476e2c179a3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a68a83d6b4086f51895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳超明 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:21:01 - 11:31:18 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
793 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員超明：（11時21分）主席好，首先請經濟部王部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：再請王部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
王部長美花：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
陳委員超明：王部長好。剛才邱志偉委員說到離岸風電的國產化問題，記得在沈榮津擔任部長的時候，本席也屢次提出。邱志偉委員說的是事實，總數56座，只有6座在臺灣做，這些本席當初都有提出來，你們還說不會有這種狀況，結果現在根本就沒有給國產廠商訂單，而且剛才邱志偉委員還說北部那家廠商的實力和政商關係都非常好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
本席只和部長提醒一件事情，當初我們為了趕快完成離岸風力的目標，總共需要56座，6座在臺灣慢慢磨，其他的都在韓國做，後續也在韓國設立工廠，結果最後卻是迷迷糊糊混過去，這些事情我們都一清二楚，講了你們也不聽，以為我們是在批評你。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][2] |
其實他說的是對的，你們的確要注意這樣的現象，因為很多業界人士反映，政府說要國產化，所以他們的機械、設備都買了，但你們卻不下訂單，你們只和大財團，和那種把臺灣當作殖民地的公司合作，這些事已經說過好幾次，本席希望你們去調查，我們也會去了解，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
王部長美花：是。其實我們都有努力協助廠商，但因為學習曲線的原因，進度確實比較慢。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
陳委員超明：本席相信你們都曉得狀況，以前本席也一直在提這些事情。現在請部長、次長和台電董事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
主席：以上各位請上台。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳委員超明：今天委員會主要是討論台電電價調漲對於產業、民生等衝擊的配套措施，本席看過你們的報告，台電虧損的主要原因是國際燃料價格飆漲，你們還談到俄烏戰爭發生以後，台電購煤從2020年的64美元，漲到2022年的276美元，足足漲了三倍。中油天然氣則是每立方由8元漲到16元，價格漲了一倍。2023年國際燃料價格雖然回穩，但仍處於高檔，但何為回穩和高檔？請你們解釋一下，回穩是回到以前的基準？還是維持在高檔？總共會下跌多少金額？戰爭進行到現在，大家都沒有燃氣了，回穩和處在高檔又是如何計算？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
王部長美花：剛才委員說的那個情境，現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳委員超明：請你們解釋清楚，不要說的迷迷糊糊，應該直接說明現在的價格是多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
王部長美花：大概比戰前高60%。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳委員超明：6%、7%？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
王部長美花：60%。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳委員超明：第一個要檢討的是，台電的人才都很優秀，他們購煤都是長期合約，為什麼現在突然漲三倍？這樣也漲太兇了！你們應該去協商一下，因為我們是長期合約的夥伴。中油也是一樣長期購買那幾個地方的油品，結果那幾個地方卻漲成這樣，你們就任人宰割嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
王部長美花：那是平均價。2022年的時候，現貨曾經漲到四百多元。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳委員超明：本席現在說的是長約價，這才是占台電、中油採購的大宗。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
王部長美花：因為我們長約價和現貨有一定的比例啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳委員超明：你們不能只用現貨價來比，長約價應該會比較便宜嘛！所以本席覺得這個講得不怎麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
王部長美花：有，就是因為有長約價，所以平均下來才會是二百多元。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
陳委員超明：好了，再說下去，本席的發言時間都要到了。你們說兩年虧損6,000億元，好，本席算帳給你們看，第一個，我們有1,500億元的公務預算補貼，500億元是特別預算，現在你們又增資1,000億元，這樣加起來就是3,000億元。你們虧損的6,000億元應該要減掉這3,000億元，這部分政府已經付給你們了，這是第一點。政府沒有付帳？如果政府都是說假的，你們為什麼不敢說出來？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
曾次長文生：委員，增資不能打虧損啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳委員超明：2022年電價調漲8%，你們說大概會增加300億元的收入，2023年又調了11%，你們說會增加600億元收入，這樣加起來差不多快1,000億元，所以全部加起來是4,000億元。6,000億元減掉這些政府補貼，以及電費調漲後增加的1,000億元，加加減減之後，你們現在是虧損2,000億元。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][1] |
這2,000億元當中，你們說再生能源占了900億元，這部分如果依照你們的售價和成本計算，大概是多付400億元，但你們說這部分沒有什麼影響，所以包括民間電廠的部分，現在你們只有2,000億元的虧損。政府補貼3,000億元，兩次電價上漲將近1,000億元，只有短差2,000億元，所以我不知道你們帳是怎麼算的，我很尊敬你這個消波塊董事長，尤其你跟我說跑去好望角去，剛剛發生火災，我曉得，因為我大概只差你2個小時，你對我的承諾…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
曾次長文生：不是我去看火災，是剛好有火災。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳委員超明：你有去，我很感謝你，但是一帳歸一帳來算，你現在這個消波塊是什麼？替蔡英文總統廢核政策辯論，其實錯誤在這邊，你是為了未來新任的賴總統清理戰場。實際算下來，包括再生能源，你們兩年多大概買了1,000億元，負債只有1,000億元，所以現在要跟你講能源政策，我幫你們算一算，其實不是你們虧錢，國家補貼，你說為穩定民生物價當消波塊，我看不是，你是當蔡英文總統的消波塊，幫未來賴清德總統清理戰場的消波塊。已經用政府稅收補貼了，你現在要漲，當然要有合理的調漲程度，但是這都很浮動，你說廢核政策絕對不會漲價，現在告一個段落，蔡英文總統要下臺了，好啦！都是你給我們不漲，我就把責任推給她，替賴清德清理戰場，這個報告裡面財務的問題，補貼了3,000億元。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
曾次長文生：沒有3,000億元，只有補貼500億元。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
陳委員超明：還有你要漲價，大概又增加1,000億元，差2,000億元，再生能源的部分大概2年1,000多億元的支出，大概只剩下1,000億元，你這樣調來調去，把我們調得迷迷糊糊，還講得很仁義道德，說為了什麼穩定物價，我來看一下你寫了什麼，反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳、使用者付費，我跟你說這絕對會大漲。現在你電價漲，天然氣要不要漲？水要不要漲？那天我看高金素梅在質詢陳院長的時候，她說上次漲價還講到馬英九，馬英九總統就是漲價讓國民黨整個落選，現在你們清理戰場用這一套，誰做的誰承擔，你們是在消除民間的疑慮，講得你們很困難，你們現在頂多只負債1,000億元而已，不要講成6,000億元、燃料成本啦！國家已經3,000億元給你們了，對不對？2022年漲價8%，增加400億元；2023年電費漲價600億元，你們自己寫的預計收入，出來差多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
曾次長文生：跟委員報告，增資的2,500億元不是補貼啦！這要跟你報告，這個在虧損上面沒有辦法打零…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
陳委員超明：你以後恢復正常要不要還給政府？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
曾次長文生：如果是照委員的講法，我們現在累虧3,000多億元，其中2,500億元就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
陳委員超明：你累虧3,000多億元，我算你的帳面成本，你有兩次漲價，台電大概多收了1,000億元，因為台電人才太好，每一個人太努力，你們是被政策所迫害的，所以你們都是苦不堪言，只是不講話而已。我跟你講老實話，我將成本算出來就知道虧損多少錢了，好不好！你一直急著要上來，我就講到這邊，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
王部長美花：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
主席：謝謝。接下來請賴委員瑞隆質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
250 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
187 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130801 |
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| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措
施」進行報告，並備質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
9.195 |
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14.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
主席好首先有請紅胸肌部王部長我們再請王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
21.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
43.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員好 王部長好剛剛邱志偉講我們離岸婚禮的國產化我記得在沈中興部長的時候我理智都提出來那邱志偉委員講的話是一個很切實的事情56隻只有6隻在台灣做我當時都有提出來你們說不會啦我們怎麼樣現在連訂單都不發給我們國產的產商 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
剛剛出座的時候北部那一家的實力政商關係非常好我只跟部長提醒一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
當時為了離岸風力我們要趕快去完成五十六隻、六隻在台灣慢慢磨其他的都在韓國湊因為渥西有在韓國有設工廠啊到最後沒有辦法大家就迷迷糊糊這樣過去我們都一清二楚講了你們也不聽以後我們再批評你其實他講的完全是對要注意這樣的一個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
83.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
102.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
因為很多的業界反映出來國產化機械設備下來買肉你們不下定餐你們被那種大財團被外國人把台灣當作殖民地的公司這樣你難得好過關於講了好幾次我希望調查我們也會去了解好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
102.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
104.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
今天委員會主要是討論我們台電電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊配套的一個措施在 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
133.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
144.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我看過你們的報告你們只要講國際燃料價格飆漲是台電虧損的主要原因這台電你又談到二五戰爭以後台電過敏從2020年64塊美元到2020年276美元漲了3倍中油的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
188.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那個天然氣每立方由8塊錢漲到16塊錢漲了一倍啊所以裡面2023年國際燃料價格雖然有回穩但是遲於高檔回穩跟高檔你跟我解釋一下回穩是回到以前的樣子還是說我在高檔董事長會給我一個介紹因為打來打去打到現在大家沒有人去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
189.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
192.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我第一個要檢討台電的人才都很優秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
238.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你們台電購買都是長期合約,怎麼這現在突然漲了3倍啊?哇媽,去掉太雄啊,你也要去捏果魚蝦!我們是長期合約的夥伴,啊中油也是一樣!長期購買那幾個地方幾個地方,把你氣到管你不會跳啊!任人宰割啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
242.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
跟委員報告齁,那個是平均價在2022的時候齁,那個現貨曾經漲到400多塊但是因為我們產業價跟現貨有一定的比例啦你用現貨價來比,啊你產業價也要降下來嘛有有,就是因為有產業價才200多塊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
267.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
284.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你們說兩年虧錢的六千億好,我算賬給你們聽第一個我們一千五百億的補貼公務預算五百億的特別預算現在你增資又一千億加起來兩千 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
286.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
287.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你2022年你電價調了8%你說大概會增加300億的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
312.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
2023年又調了11%．你們報告會增加600億的收入．加加押才要多少錢．這樣加押給你到4千6千億減這個政府補貼．還有定位調價的上場．1千億這樣起來您現在才虧損兩千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
333.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
353.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
阿兩千要來得你講齁那個再生能源佔了九百億這裡面如果依照你們收價的成本大概你多付出了四百億這來得你說阿只佔了沒有什麼影響所謂的價包括民間的電廠在這裡面現在你給他兩千要給虧損喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
356.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
384.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
政府補貼3千億兩次電價的上漲將近1千億除了2千億所以我不知道你這個小安若生那你這個小波塊董事長我很尊敬你尤其你跟我講說跑到我好望角去剛剛發生火災我曉得除了大概只差你兩個小時你對我的承諾好你有機智我會很感謝你但是這樣一帳一帳歸一帳來算啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以你現在這個小破怪是什麼替蔡英文總統匯合政策辯論其實很多錯誤在這邊你是現在我們未來新任的賴清晨總清理戰場拿出來實際算下來你們在包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
409.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
433.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
再生能源大概你們兩年多買了一千億剩下只有一千億所以現在要跟你說能源政策調不適用我給你算一算不是你虧錢國家補貼你說為了穩定民生物價你當小破塊我看不是你是當蔡英文總統的小破塊當未來賴清德的總統清理戰鬥團的小破塊所以說來給你補貼吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
438.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
461.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你現在要漲當然要有合理漲的一個程度但是這個都很浮動你幾十年沒在說我核能證會有絕對不會漲價跟今天一個高了一個段落蔡英文總統也要下台了好啦都是你給我們不漲我先把責任歸給他替他得錢得錢得錢這個報告裡面你們財務的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
466.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
486.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
補貼了三千億還有你電價漲價了大概又增加了一千億兩千億兩千億再生能源大概兩年的話一千億多的支出大概只剩下一千億還講得很子逆道德我說為了什麼穩定物價 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
496.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
507.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我來看一下你寫的原來反應成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳、使用者互惠我可以講十多大句現在你電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
509.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
529.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你天然劑要不要漲?你水要不要漲?那天我看高金素美在質詢我們的陳院長的時候他說三次漲價還講到馬英九馬英九總統就是漲價讓國民黨都整個落選現在你們清理戰場用這一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
530.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
532.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你們現在頂多只負債一千億而已啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
543.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
547.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你2022年漲價8%增加400億2023年電費漲價、成本漲價600億你們自己寫的不會預計收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
565.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
574.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那個跟委員報告那個增資的2500億不是補貼啦這個要跟您報告這個在虧損上面他沒有辦法打累虧我們現在如果是照委員的講法你看我們現在就是累虧3000多億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
582.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
600.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你累計3000多月我現在算一月就這賬面成本你有兩次漲價大概你們台電多收了一千億因為台電人生財太好每一個人太牡蠣你們被政策所迫害的啦所以你們都苦不堪言大家不要講話而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
601.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
611.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我是跟你講的老實話我這個選民生產你就知道到底虧損多少好不好因為你一直急著要來我這邊叫我朝廷我要說什麼說好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請賴瑞榮 |