| IVOD_ID |
149079 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149079 |
| 日期 |
2024-01-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
臨時會院會-10-8-1-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
10 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
8 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.臨時會會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-01-09T10:00:24+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-01-09T10:16:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68928d87c67ae6d835e826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50db1ce09e5d905ece5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
曾銘宗 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:00:24 - 10:16:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢） |
| gazette.lineno |
377 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
曾委員銘宗：（10時）謝謝院長。我要先程序發言，兩點：第一點，院會，我就質詢院長，這是第一點，其他部會首長不能上來；第二點，院長，我剛剛看那個情況，到底誰在質詢誰啊？叫院長答的時候再答，還在反質詢！好不好？院長，這次可能是這一屆你最後一次主持院會，希望展現的是中華民國立法院院長，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[0][1] |
好，謝謝。請院長。 |
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主席：好，陳院長請。 |
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陳院長建仁：曾委員好！ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長好！其實我看了，你答得不錯了，我問的問題你全部可以答，放心！我不會為難你。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
第一個，羅致政委員的不雅影片已經鑑定完成，什麼時候要公布？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，這好像跟今天的議題沒有關係耶！不過我可以跟你講，這件事情已經進入了司法調查，我們行政院完全支持，也希望我們檢調單位能夠盡速查明真相。我們尊重…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
曾委員銘宗：那個影片是不是偽造、變造？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們尊重檢調調查的結果。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
曾委員銘宗：調查結果是不是偽造、變造？院長，什麼時候公布？選後再公布，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們會尊重司法獨立。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
曾委員銘宗：你曉不曉得檢調一體？你不公布就是政府介選，你同不同意？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳院長建仁：不同意！ |
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曾委員銘宗：不同意，你的立場…… |
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陳院長建仁：我想在檢調的調查過程當中都要很審慎…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
曾委員銘宗：你的立場我可以理解，你當然不同意啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳院長建仁：你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我，我是覺得很正常。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，第二個問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳院長建仁：但是這個是…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
曾委員銘宗：不同意沒關係，讓2,300萬民眾去做出公斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][1] |
另外，羅致政的另外一個影片，跟總統對話的整個錄音檔外流，到底誰偷錄這個影片？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個也正在偵查當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
曾委員銘宗：還在偵查啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳院長建仁：當然啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
曾委員銘宗：會不會是羅致政自己錄？就是他們兩個對話啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳院長建仁：這是你個人的猜測，我是很懷疑。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，那你認為誰錄？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳院長建仁：我不知道，這就要檢調來偵查…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
曾委員銘宗：高度懷疑就是羅致政自己錄。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳院長建仁：因為我們都不是偵查的專家，而且更重要的，你剛才講的也是你個人的想法。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，你不要等閒視之啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
陳院長建仁：我沒有等閒視之。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
曾委員銘宗：假設您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄，這有可能啊！一個國會議員跟總統的講話都被錄音，那您跟…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳院長建仁：所以我們很慎重而且積極的來進行相關的調查工作，而且要進一步去看看這個錄音帶到底是不是偽造，要做相關的鑑定等等，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
曾委員銘宗：多久可以出來？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳院長建仁：所以偵查…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
曾委員銘宗：選後，對不對？也是選後。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳院長建仁：偵查一定是要審慎…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
曾委員銘宗：當然要審慎啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳院長建仁：然後一定要有科學化，這樣才能夠…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
曾委員銘宗：什麼時候會出來？你…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳院長建仁：我沒有辦法替檢調回答這個問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，這是國安問題耶！一個國會議員跟總統的對話被錄音、被流露出來，或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話，這是國安的問題耶！這涉及到國家安全耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳院長建仁：我同意，我同意這是國安的問題，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，國安問題，什麼時候有個結論？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳院長建仁：我跟你報告過了，我們最重要的就是要讓檢調以科技、科學的方法，還有很審慎地來看看，有沒有是偽造、變造等等，所以這是不是要時間？委員，我們可以信口開河，隨便講嗎？當然不可以嘛！這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，你說誰信口開河？你說誰信口開河？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳院長建仁：我沒有啊！我是覺得如果你說今天就要公布…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
曾委員銘宗：你是說我嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳院長建仁：我不是說你…… |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
曾委員銘宗：我在國會殿堂耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
陳院長建仁：我不是說你信口開河，但是最重要的，很多人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布，這是不可能的事情嘛！因為事情的調查總是要時間…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
曾委員銘宗：國安的問題耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
陳院長建仁：國安很重要，我們會要求…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，哪一天公布了您跟總統的對話。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
陳院長建仁：這很重要，我也同意，但是檢調會很審慎地來做相關的調查。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
曾委員銘宗：審慎到什麼時候？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
陳院長建仁：而且很迅速…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
曾委員銘宗：一個禮拜、二個禮拜、選後？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
陳院長建仁：調查的時間，我們會請這一些單位一定要加速辦理。 |
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曾委員銘宗：好，反正也問不出什麼名堂。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][1] |
另外，賴總統候選人12月30號表示，為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮，政府要公布合約。為什麼時間過去了，到現在還不公布？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了，讓我再說明一下，因為當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候有5年保密這一個條款，在政府為簽約人一方的時候，我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定。但是我們曉得賴副總統他希望能夠公開，政府的態度也希望能夠儘早公開，但是因為有簽約的關係，所以我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，你過去賴清德候選人今天講，明天你就配合、行政院就宣布，為什麼獨獨這件事情你不願意配合？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
陳院長建仁：因為這裡我們有條約的限制在，政府需要維持政府的誠信，如果政府沒有維持誠信的話，未來我們要跟別人簽約，你想我們會簽約嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
曾委員銘宗：政府的誠信？院長，您曉不曉得高端公司的往來對象幾乎只有蔡政府，你知不知道？你知不知道它做生意的對象？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
陳院長建仁：我覺得這是你個人的看法。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
曾委員銘宗：什麼個人看法！你看它的銷售收入啊！它做生意的收入啊！表示你業務不熟啦！ |
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陳院長建仁：我熟得很。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
曾委員銘宗：它99.9%的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府，你只要它，你是它唯一銷售的對象，你叫它公布，它就公布，而且只有董事會通不通過。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
陳院長建仁：我剛才在報告的時候以及跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚，我們也主張要公開，而且我們也是積極地跟高端來聯繫，希望它能夠儘早來公布我們這一些契約。而且我要跟您報告，所有的契約都是照制式化契約的方式來看，而且大院的調閱小組也看過這一些，只是把某一些地方、重要的關鍵…… |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，你沒有來，都塗掉啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
陳院長建仁：塗掉，對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
曾委員銘宗：我還要給你看啦！這合約有一條你為什麼不敢公布？合約裡面有一些不公平、不合理啦！民法規定顯失公平的合約是無效的，我念給你聽啦！廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履約者，機關同意不對廠商追償已支付之契約價金。 |
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陳院長建仁：那接下來呢？ |
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曾委員銘宗：就這樣子啊！它已經做到努力，就不追償價金啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
陳院長建仁：剛才我的報告裡面已經講了，如果可以歸諸於廠商…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，這個顯失公平合理啦！院長，我跟你講，我當了一輩子的公務員，我沒看過這種合約。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
陳院長建仁：你看過吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
曾委員銘宗：沒看過這種合約，顯失公平，難怪你不敢公布啦！難怪你不敢公布啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有，你這樣講，我不同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
曾委員銘宗：不同意，不同意就…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
陳院長建仁：很重要的一件事情是…… |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
曾委員銘宗：不同意就趕快公布、不同意就趕快公布，這個契約顯失公平。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
陳院長建仁：剛才我已經講過，如果可歸諸於廠商的，是要處罰的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，這契約顯失公平，這契約無效，顯失公平。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們有處罰的就處罰，所以並不是沒有處罰。你這樣講，你是斷章取義啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
曾委員銘宗：沒有啊！就合約啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
陳院長建仁：對啊，我跟你講，我剛才也講過，如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任，它是要受處罰的啊！有啊！有寫在另外一條啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
曾委員銘宗：它自願公布就可以了啦！什麼處罰？你懂不懂啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
陳院長建仁：我懂喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
曾委員銘宗：再請教你，這個疫苗有幾個疑點。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，你說。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
曾委員銘宗：第一個，高端是民間公司，為什麼衛福部還沒有採購，高端公司就已經知道採購價格？它就知道700塊以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
陳院長建仁：那個是錯假消息，那個700塊…… |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
曾委員銘宗：什麼假消息？ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
陳院長建仁：是錯假消息。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
曾委員銘宗：絕對是真消息、真消息。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有…… |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，不能隨便指定它是假消息，事實證明它是真的。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
陳院長建仁：這是錯假消息，真的是錯假消息，當時是疾管署他們為了要採購疫苗所講的…… |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
曾委員銘宗：怎麼會假消息？事後證實是真消息。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
陳院長建仁：那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的…… |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
曾委員銘宗：真消息。 |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
陳院長建仁：被貴黨的議員剪接的消息…… |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
曾委員銘宗：真消息。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
陳院長建仁：這是假消息。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，院長，第二點，為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查，高端知道一定會通過？一路綠燈，一路綠燈。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有一定會通過，這也是錯假消息…… |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
曾委員銘宗：還錯假，真的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
陳院長建仁：你怎麼會一路通過？我們當時有3家廠商…… |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
曾委員銘宗：他說一路開綠燈啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有一路開綠燈。 |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，你有沒有看過他的錄音帶？一路開綠燈啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
曾委員銘宗：講啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
陳院長建仁：好。在一個疫苗研發的過程當中，一定要通過動物實驗、臨床一期、臨床二期，而且這些東西都是我們國內最好的廠商或是最好的大學在執行，執行的結果都發表在世界上一流的期刊，都顯示出來它有很好的效果，當它的效果出來以後，我們才會簽約。 |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，我跟你講，你對資本市場不熟啦！高端的前身叫什麼？高端在證交所或者櫃買中心的紀錄是一家…… |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們要看它試驗的結果，講科學啦！講科學啦！你以科學來講，不管它…… |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
曾委員銘宗：我們不要講它惡名昭彰啦，它是有非常重大爭議的公司，你知不知道？它是一家有重大爭議的公司啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
陳院長建仁：你這樣講是不公平的…… |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
曾委員銘宗：公平啊！你去查紀錄，你去查紀錄！ |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
陳院長建仁：不公平啊！好，我們來查紀錄…… |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
曾委員銘宗：你要嘛！你要嘛找一家比較正派的公司。 |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
陳院長建仁：它的動物實驗很成功，臨床一期很成功，臨床二期很成功，而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好，然後真實世界的研究也和莫德納跟BNT一樣好喔，所以不要抹煞了這些真實的數據…… |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好個鬼啊好，好個鬼啊！院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
陳院長建仁：你講好個鬼就表示你不是專業啊，你講的東西不是正確的。 |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
曾委員銘宗：你講你的專業，我講我的專業，你都沒回答我的專業。 |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有，你剛才講的都…… |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，院長，民進黨說高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
陳院長建仁：我聽不清楚，你說？ |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，我再講一次。民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
陳院長建仁：當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有3隊，一個是聯亞，一個是國光，還有一個就是高端，而且他們在很嚴格的限制下，要把動物實驗的結果、臨床一期、臨床二期提出來才能夠做，這就是國家隊…… |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好啦！你都承認高端是疫苗國家隊，既然是疫苗國家隊…… |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發，而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗…… |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
曾委員銘宗：既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？院長，針對我的問題答…… |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
陳院長建仁：而那個疫苗效價最差的，幸好沒有，幸好沒有採購，所以我們的國家隊是這樣來的。 |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
曾委員銘宗：針對我的問題答，針對我的問題答，既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？它既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？中華民國只有唯一啊！它是什麼國家隊啊？只賣給民進黨政府啊！只賣給民進黨政府啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
陳院長建仁：它在巴拉圭取得臨床三期，它在泰國取得臨床三期，它跟世界衛生組織有技術轉移的簽約，而且世界衛生組織也幫它做三期的臨床試驗，你是完全抹煞了科學的證據。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
曾委員銘宗：我說產品啦！這個國家隊的產品只有賣給中華民國，只有賣給民進黨政府啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
陳院長建仁：你完全抹煞科學證據！ |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，我沒有抹煞。再給你講、再給你講，假設高端是疫苗國家隊…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
陳院長建仁：有，你看看，世界衛生組織要花三十幾億去做臨床實驗耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
曾委員銘宗：高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗也是代理韓國的而已，沒辦法自行生產。號稱疫苗國家隊，你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產，你還代理韓國的耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗，流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單，問題是在這裡…… |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，好好回答我的問題，它連個流感疫苗都沒辦法生產了，還代理韓國的耶！這什麼國家隊啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想你的想法，你不要聲東擊西啦…… |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，這是你的專業，你回答我的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，我回答你的問題就很簡單，高端的COVID-19疫苗是一個很好的疫苗，全世界都認定的，而且是世界衛生組織來技轉它要給其他的國家使用的，然後世界衛生組織願意來做臨床三期的實驗，在3個國家來做…… |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
曾委員銘宗：我還是那個問題，我還是那個問題，你既然是疫苗國家隊，連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，這什麼國家隊啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
陳院長建仁：然後真實世界的結果，肯定它的效果跟BNT還有莫德納是一樣好，比AZ好，而且比科興、比國藥還好，所以你如果要講…… |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，這什麼國家隊啊？這什麼國家隊啊？連個感冒疫苗都沒辦法生產了，連感冒疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，這什麼國家隊？ |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
陳院長建仁：如果你要講國家隊，那我跟你講，在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候，在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗…… |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
曾委員銘宗：院長，針對我的問題答，既然高端是疫苗國家隊，連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，什麼疫苗國家隊？什麼是疫苗國家隊？ |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
陳院長建仁：所有的疫苗，全世界在做疫苗供應的時候都會…… |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
曾委員銘宗：連流感疫苗都沒辦法做，還代理韓國的，什麼疫苗國家隊？什麼疫苗國家隊？ |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們可以做，我們有能力做。 |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
曾委員銘宗：什麼疫苗國家隊？ |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員你這樣重複沒有意思嘛！像鸚鵡一樣沒意思。 |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
曾委員銘宗：好，高端股價從2020的27元一路炒到2021年5月31日的417塊，後來一路下跌，昨天收盤是68.4元，院長，有多少散戶損失慘重都打電話到辦公室抗議，說蔡政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
陳院長建仁：我剛才已經跟…… |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
曾委員銘宗：蔡政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
陳院長建仁：我剛才已經跟委員講過了，所有疫苗在研發的過程當中…… |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
曾委員銘宗：從27塊漲到417…… |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
陳院長建仁：新藥研發本來就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
曾委員銘宗：多少散戶受害？院長知不知道？ |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
曾委員銘宗：可以啊！但這不是你的專業！ |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
陳院長建仁：所有新藥的研發的股市都是上上下下，當它臨床實驗成功的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
曾委員銘宗：上上下下沒有這樣啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
陳院長建仁：有啦！你就看莫德納和BNT就好啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
曾委員銘宗：我是沒時間跟你說內線交易你知道嗎？你剛才…… |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
陳院長建仁：內線交易我剛才講了，有內線交易我們已經查了，而且我們已經…… |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
曾委員銘宗：查個鬼啦查！ |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
陳院長建仁：查了啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
曾委員銘宗：那要等喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們已經查了，而且已經判刑了。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
曾委員銘宗：等改朝換代再來查，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[174][0] |
主席：好，謝謝曾委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[174][1] |
接下來請林委員俊憲質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
86 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
臨時會院會-10-8-1-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
游錫堃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
邱顯智 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
邱臣遠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
曾銘宗 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱泰源 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
蔡適應 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
吳斯懷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
游毓蘭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
李德維 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
吳玉琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林為洲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-01-09 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1130301_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1130301_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報
告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─ |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
5.561 |
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23.369 |
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謝謝院長 我要先程序發言兩點 第一點 院會我就質詢院長 這第一點其他部位所長不能上來第二點 院長我剛剛看的情況 到底誰要質詢誰啊叫院長打的時候再打還在反質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好不好 院長這可能是這一屆你最後一次主席宴會希望展現是壯大民國立法院院長好不好好 謝謝 請院長陳院長請主委好院長好其實我看你答得不錯我問的問題你全部可以答放心我不會為難你 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
83.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
第一個羅志正委員的不雅的影片已經鑑定完成什麼事要公布委員這好像跟今天的議題沒有關係不過我可以跟你講這件事情已經進入了司法調查我們行政院完全支持也希望我們檢調單位能夠盡速查明真相這影片是不是偽造變造 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
104.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們尊重檢調的調查的結果調查結果是不是偽造變造那院長什麼時候公布選後再公布對不對我們會尊重司法獨立司法你想不要檢調一題你不公布就是戰斧借血 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
128.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
你同不同意不同意我想在檢調的調查過程當中你的立場我可以理解都要很審慎那你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我啊我是覺得很正常啊但是這個是不同意沒關係讓2300萬民眾去做出公斷好另外盧志政另外一個影片跟總統對話那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
133.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
149.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
整個錄音檔外流到底誰偷錄這個影片這個也正在偵查當中還在偵查當然啦會不會是羅志正自己錄就是他們兩個對話這是你個人的猜測那你認為誰錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
152.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
157.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
高度懷疑,就是奴製政經度院長,院長你不要等閒視之啊亞瑟您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄了這有可能啊一個國會的議員跟總統的講話都被錄音那您 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
179.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
179.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
國安問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
208.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
208.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
一個國會議員：總統對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
212.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
240.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
被錄音被流露出來或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話這是國安的問題這涉及到國家安全我同意這是國安的問題但是我跟你報告過了我們最重要的就是要讓檢調來以科學的方法還有很審慎的來看看有沒有是偽造變造等等所以這是不是要時間委員我們可以信口開河隨便講嗎當然不可以嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
241.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
267.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因我不是說你信口開河但是最重要的很多的人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布這是不可能的事情嘛因為你事情的調查總是要時間國安很重要我們會要求檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
270.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
299.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這很重要我也同意但是檢調會很審慎的來做相關的調查審慎到什麼時候而且很迅速一個禮拜兩個禮拜選後調查的時間我們會請這些單位一定要來加速的來辦理好反正你問不出你什麼名堂好另外賴總統候選人12月30號表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
300.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
310.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮政府要公布合約為什麼時間過去了到現在還不公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
310.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
332.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好 這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了讓我再說明一下因為在當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候呢有五年保密的這一個條款那在政府視為簽約人的一方的時候呢我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定那所以 但是政府呢我們曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
333.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
334.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
院長你過去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
343.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
371.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
蔡清的候選人今天講明天你就配合 行政院就宣布為什麼堵堵這件事情你不願意配合那因為這裡我們有條約的限制在政府需要維持政府的誠信如果政府沒有維持誠信的話院長你想不想高端公司高端的公司他的往來的對象幾乎只有蔡政府你知不知道知不知道他做生意的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我覺得這是你個人的看法什麼個人的看法你看他的銷售收入啊他做生意的收入啦沒關係你業務不熟啦我熟得很99.9%他的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府蔡政府他你只要他你他是你唯一 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
403.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
418.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我剛才在報告的時候也跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚我們是也主張要公開而且我們也是積極的來跟高端來聯繫希望他能夠盡早來公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
419 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
419.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我列給你聽啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
476.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履歷者機關同意不對廠商追償以致付出企業價金那接下來呢就這樣子喔他已經最大努力就不追償價金啦剛才我的報告裡面已經講了如果可以歸屬於廠商院長我跟你講我當了一輩子的公務員我沒有看過這種合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
478.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
495.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
沒有看過這種合約顯示公平難怪你不敢公布啦你這樣講我不同意那很重要的一件事情是剛才我的剛才我已經講過嘛剛才我已經講過如果可歸屬於廠商的是要處罰的啊我沒有處罰的就處罰所以並不是沒有處罰你這樣講你是斷章取義啦沒有啊這合約啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
507.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
527.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對阿我跟你講就是說我剛才也講過如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任他是要受處罰的阿有阿有寫在另外一條阿所以所以我覺得阿就業公布就可以了啦什麼處罰阿你懂不懂阿好再請教你阿我懂喔這個疫苗阿我有幾個疑點好你說第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
531.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
549.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
高端是民間公司為什麼未服務還沒有採購高端公司就已經知道採購價格他就知道要700塊以上欸那個是錯假消息啦那個700塊是錯假消息絕對是真消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
550.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
576.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
委員那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有不能隨便指定他是假消息這是錯假消息真的是錯假消息當時是疾管署他們為了要要採購這個疫苗所講的那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的被對黨的議員剪接的消息這是假消息第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
577.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
601.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查高端知道一定會通過一路沒有一定會通過一路立登這也是錯假消息錯假真的啊你怎麼會一路通過我們當時有三家廠商他說一路開立登啊你沒看過他錄音帶一路開立登啦好委員我可以講嗎講啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
604.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
606.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你對資本市場不熟高端的前身叫什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
630.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
660.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
高端在證交所或者櫃買中心的紀錄我們要看他實驗的結論講科學啦講科學啦你講科學來講不管他你這樣講是不公平的不公平啊你去查紀錄好我們來查紀錄他的動物實驗很成功動物實驗很成功臨床一期很成功臨床二期很成功而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
660.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
679.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
然後真實世界的這個研究也和摩德大跟BNT一樣好喔所以不要抹煞了這些真實的數據你現在講你講好的鬼就表示你不是專業啊你講的東西不是正確的啊你都沒回答我的專業沒有你剛才講的你立定黨說 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
681.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
697.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你講說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對對不對我聽不清楚你說好再講一次民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對我想當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有三個隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
698.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
719.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
一個就是聯亞 一個就是國光 一個就是高端而且他們在很嚴格的限制下要把動物實驗的結果臨床一期 臨床二期提出來才能夠做那就是國家隊我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗那個疫苗效價最差的 幸好沒有採購喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
728.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
731.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他疫苗賣給哪個國家他疫苗賣給哪個國家衝華民國自己有唯一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
739.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
758.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他是什麼國家隊阿他在邁給民進黨政府阿他在巴拉圭取得臨床三期他在泰國取得臨床三期他跟世界衛生組織有這個技術轉移的這個簽約而且他世界衛生組織也幫他做三期的臨床實驗你完全抹煞了科學的證據你完全抹煞科學證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
764.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
786.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 再跟你講疫苗假設公關事疫苗國家對那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗你是代理韓國的疫苗 沒辦法自己生產你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產你還代理韓國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
788.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
796.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單我問提示在這裡代理韓國這什麼國家隊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
804.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
806.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我還是那個問題我還是那個問題你既然是疫苗國家隊連 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
832.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
835.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
838.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
864.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這什麼國家隊還好啊這什麼國家隊連個感冒疫苗都要生產啦連感冒疫苗都要生產還帶你韓國的啦如果你要講國家隊那我跟你講在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗真的我問你啦越南都還是疫苗國家隊連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產還帶你韓國的什麼疫苗國家隊什麼是疫苗國家隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
865.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
865.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
高端股價 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
883.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
888.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
從2020的27元一路炒到20215月31的417塊後來一路下跌昨天收盤是68.4元院長有多少散戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
902.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
910.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
展示慘重打電話到辦公室抗議蔡政府蔡政府蔡政府從20幾塊搞到41728塊都要閃出受害院長你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
922.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
924.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們已經查了而且已經判刑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
963.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
963.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝鄭委員 |